Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
oldJoe
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 6:42 am

FluidFlow wrote:
It is so interesting to see how many people lack the ability to read and understand.

You can be for or against the taxation on jet fuel but it is still important to understand that she is not banning anything. No one will lose his toy, it will just be more expensive if she gets elected. That is all. Cant be to hard to get.


But she wants whoever says she will be elected ? Definitely not from me !
 
Blerg
Posts: 4813
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 6:44 am

Yes because Swedish aviation has thrived over the years. NYO is struggling financially, Bromma is being closed down, SAS has moved its main hub to CPH and so on.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13906
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Green party candidate for chancellor Baerbock want to ban short haul and LCC flights when she becomes chancellor

Mon May 17, 2021 6:46 am

seansasLCY wrote:
This is increasingly popular the world over.

Where on Earth do you get that idea from?


Galwayman wrote:
Just ban frequent flyer programmes - much more helpful

How, exactly?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
oldJoe
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 6:48 am

Blerg wrote:
Yes because Swedish aviation has thrived over the years. NYO is struggling financially, Bromma is being closed down, SAS has moved its main hub to CPH and so on.


Wrong place ?
 
PSA727
Posts: 915
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 am

Re: Green party candidate for chancellor Baerbock want to ban short haul and LCC flights when she becomes chancellor

Mon May 17, 2021 6:56 am

LAX772LR wrote:

Where on Earth do you get that idea from?

Didn't you hear? Everyone wants to pay higher airfare to save the planet!!

Actually, don't a few airlines have on their websites the option to pay a "carbon offset fee" when you purchase a ticket? I wonder how many people actually opt-in. My guess is not many. I don't.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 6:59 am

Just wondering, does the green party in fact want to kill Lufthansa for any reason?
Being a hub airline LH needs feeder services, short haul flights and has connecting passengers that need to be distributed. Airports cannot easily be connected to high speed train links. Look at MUC airport taking tens of years and still not being high speed rail connected. And Lufthansa just starts to do lowcost flying as well just having announced long range lowcost from Frankfurt and wanting to expand Eurowings.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14516
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 7:00 am

PSA727 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

...and pay the same CO2 Charge on their fuel to get to the airport, to board a flight that also pays a CO2 charge?

How can the German government implement a CO2 tax on jet fuel in Poland?


Poland is in the EU, the EU has a CO2 trading system too. And its own CO2 taxation...

Didn't the growth at Weeze airport in NRW mostly come from Dutch passengers after their government added additional tax onto tickets ex-NL?


Possible, but the growth spur started quite a bit before. And the Netherlands are tiny. Heck, every single Dutch airport is closer to me than Frankfurt..

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
PSA727
Posts: 915
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 7:10 am

Noshow wrote:
Just wondering, does the green party in fact want to kill Lufthansa for any reason?
Being a hub airline LH needs feeder services, short haul flights and has connecting passengers that need to be distributed. Airports cannot easily be connected to.

What business does the Green Party not want to kill? There's a reason why they're called 'Watermelons".

BTW, was it the Green Party in Austria (which is actually part of the ruling government there) who suggested recently that every ticket out of VIE should have a minimum base price (something like 40 EUR)?
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
Blerg
Posts: 4813
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 7:37 am

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Yes because Swedish aviation has thrived over the years. NYO is struggling financially, Bromma is being closed down, SAS has moved its main hub to CPH and so on.


Wrong place ?


It was a reply to another poster who mentioned the Swedish aviation tax and how it had no effect on the Swedish economy.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4813
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 7:38 am

PSA727 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Just wondering, does the green party in fact want to kill Lufthansa for any reason?
Being a hub airline LH needs feeder services, short haul flights and has connecting passengers that need to be distributed. Airports cannot easily be connected to.

What business does the Green Party not want to kill? There's a reason why they're called 'Watermelons".

BTW, was it the Green Party in Austria (which is actually part of the ruling government there) who suggested recently that every ticket out of VIE should have a minimum base price (something like 40 EUR)?


I think they are the ones who proposed the termination of any regional flights that can be reach by train in less than three hours from Vienna.
 
tomcat
Posts: 731
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 8:23 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
jetfan wrote:
Noshow wrote:
From my point of view low-cost airlines are the most efficient way to fly:

-they use young, most efficient, clean and most quiet fleets
-they serve only routes that fill their aircraft. If some route doesn't work they close it. They don't serve capital routes, traditional routes or anything that is not profitable
-they have high load factors, using aircraft in the most efficient way
-they use the most efficient flight profiles like continuous descent approaches and optimized loading to save trim drag
-they don't have fancy first class seats or showers that waste space and weight for nothing
-they have no frequent flyer programs that lead to mileage runs
-they are profitable

Why should this clearly most efficient way to fly be forbidden so only the rich can fly in the future?


But they induce traffic, making people travel which otherwise wouldn‘t have traveled at all. In the early 2000s when LCC fought price wars, it wasn‘t that uncommon for people to fly to Mallorca just for one or two party nights. This has improved since the number of LCCs decreased, but still it is not uncommon for wealthy retirees to have a second home somewhere in the sun and travel frequently.


Yup, exactly the same behaviour you see when new roads are built. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand for those not familiar with the concept.


That's the whole point of building new roads and of increasing competition among the airlines: give the citizens more convenience and make travel more affordable. The air transport liberalization is pretty much the only success story of the EU and there are people crazy enough to abandon it. Those green policies will revert Europe into a continent where only the aristocratic minority enjoys some wellbeing while the masses are sent back to a peasant status. We are bound for a new French revolution, the yellow jackets unrest was just a starter.
 
Lufthomas732
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:01 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 8:44 am

As many other posters have already remarked Annalena Baerbock is not talking about a ban but about internalizing the environmental costs of flying which ofc means making flights more expensive relative to their current (partially subsidized) levels.

For the German speakers among us there is a debate on the carbon neutral future of aviation between Carsten Spohr (CEO of Lufthansa) and Annalena Baerbock here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkj-GvR4msE which is both quite interesting and relevant. In contrast to the portrayal of their relationship as conflicted they seem to agree on many key issues including the need for carbon neutral aviation, limitation of domestic short haul flights (if the train network is improved and specifically MUC is connected to the intercity rail network) and even a carbon tax for intra-EU flights. The main point of concern for Spohr is maintaining a fair playing field internationally and preventing a "carbon leakage" i.e. the evasion of carbon taxes by shifting demand outside the taxable area.

I agree with other posters that low cost carriers are very carbon efficient on a per passenger basis however the ultra low prices create new demand and thus more emissions at the end of the day.
As an avid flyer, a recreational pilot and a lifelong aviation nerd but also as a relatively young person, my opinion is that we can only afford further growth (relative to pre-pandemic times ofc) in the aviation industry if it is carbon neutral. It will cost less to adapt now than later.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14266
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 9:08 am

Noshow wrote:
From my point of view low-cost airlines are the most efficient way to fly:

-they use young, most efficient, clean and most quiet fleets
-they serve only routes that fill their aircraft. If some route doesn't work they close it. They don't serve capital routes, traditional routes or anything that is not profitable
-they have high load factors, using aircraft in the most efficient way
-they use the most efficient flight profiles like continuous descent approaches and optimized loading to save trim drag
-they don't have fancy first class seats or showers that waste space and weight for nothing
-they have no frequent flyer programs that lead to mileage runs
-they are profitable

Why should this clearly most efficient way to fly be forbidden so only the rich can fly in the future?


Yeah and a Bugatti Chiron is the most efficient car to go to 300mph, doesn't mean it's good for the climate. (in truth such cars are barely driven so they don't really impact the climate, at least directly...)

mxaxai wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Much depends on what the tax collector does with money and I’m not optimistic politicians will spend it wisely.

One idea is to distribute all income from environment-related taxes equally among all citizens. So those who pollute much will end up with a net negative, while other have more money than before. To give people a financial incentive to make environmentally friendly choices.

We'll see what happens in the future.


I think some places already do this, on a small scale.

I don't know if it should be "all income" since the goal is to reduce emissions, I think it would need to be fine-tuned. Probably better to give an amount that is enough to cover the basic needs of people so they're not worse off if driving a normal car, heating a normal not very efficient home, etc. Even if their vacations are more expensive. Then see what happens, if there is money to spare it could be allocated to help people get a better car, insulate their home etc.

DLPMMM wrote:
This is all about nothing. Just political posturing by the candidate in order to garner press coverage and solidify standing with the radical base of the Green Party.

The Green candidate will not be chancellor.

Even if the German Greens got their wish, the laws of unintended consequences would prevail. German travelers would just take a car/train to the nearest non-German airport and fly where they like if it is less expensive/more convenient.

A tempest in a teapot.


With Germany and France on board with something like this, Northern European countries probably too, that could lead to the implementation of an EU-wide CO2 tax (at least on kerosene). I know there is already a CO2 trading scheme but it's not agressive enough.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bravotango75
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 9:27 am

“Greenuism” nothing more than Communism, rebranded.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 9:32 am

Noshow wrote:
Airports cannot easily be connected to high speed train links.


In case you haven't noticed, there is a station for high speed trains at FRA. And you can book trips with Lufthansa that includes a train journey.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 10:20 am

I know and use it frequently. I was talking about other airports on top and gave an example.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 10:29 am

Noshow wrote:
Airports cannot easily be connected to high speed train links. Look at MUC airport taking tens of years and still not being high speed rail connected.

FRA has an excellent high speed rail connection. BER got a new train station with direct trains to Dresden and the Baltic sea, and another one for high-speed rail is being built at STR.
Not connecting MUC was a political decision by a local government 20 years ago. It's only in recent years that new plans have been made to connect MUC to high-speed rail.

That leaves only DUS and HAM out of the large German airports without good rail services (only local trains).
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14516
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 10:52 am

Noshow wrote:
I know and use it frequently. I was talking about other airports on top and gave an example.


To bad for MUC then, good for FRA/DUS/CGN/BER/LEJ/STR

mxaxai wrote:
That leaves only DUS and HAM out of the large German airports without good rail services (only local trains).


DUS is supposed to get some ICE trains this year, even so far just one stops there..

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
sharles
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 11:14 am

PSA727 wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
If they raise fuel taxes in Germany all the airlines have to do is start fueling outside of Germany when they can, the government will see their fuel tax revenue drop.

Actually, all of these LCCs will just shift their operations across the borders of Germany into the nearest airports in Poland and the Czech Republic, Belgium or even Luxembourg.

Tragedy of the commons.
You don't solve this by not taxing flights. You solve this by agreeing that everyone will tax flights. Not just Germany, but Poland, and the Czech Republic, ...
And yes, the taxes should be fair (on fuel based on greenhouse gas emissions, so that the most efficient airlines can thrive).
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9434
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 11:54 am

Lufthomas732 wrote:
I agree with other posters that low cost carriers are very carbon efficient on a per passenger basis...


No, they aren't. They are better than lower density seating/older aircraft network carriers, but compared to high speed trains they use a lot more energy, and that energy isn't 80% carbon-free as has been achieved by some national networks. If you look at tonnes of emissions per million passenger km, LCC aviation is going to be about 15x high speed rail in France.

Why do we worry about an industry that represents 2.5% of emissions? Because everything needs to get to carbon-neutral, through its own emission reduction, offsets, or CO2 removal. If we don't demand each industry achieve that, and instead force greater reductions in other industries, then we ARE subsidizing a polluting industry - which is the candidate's original complaint.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and LCC flights

Mon May 17, 2021 12:04 pm

PSA727 wrote:
Actually, all of these LCCs will just shift their operations across the borders of Germany into the nearest airports in Poland and the Czech Republic, Belgium or even Luxembourg.

People said the same when Germany introduced a surcharge for departures 10 years ago. Very few customers are actually willing to drive much further just to save a few Euros on their holiday ticket. Especially no high yielding business travellers.
Studies indicated that less than 2% of passengers chose a foreign airport rather than a closer domestic airport, even when the difference could be up to 45 €.
 
Lufthomas732
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:01 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 12:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Lufthomas732 wrote:
I agree with other posters that low cost carriers are very carbon efficient on a per passenger basis...


No, they aren't. They are better than lower density seating/older aircraft network carriers, but compared to high speed trains they use a lot more energy, and that energy isn't 80% carbon-free as has been achieved by some national networks. If you look at tonnes of emissions per million passenger km, LCC aviation is going to be about 15x high speed rail in France.

Why do we worry about an industry that represents 2.5% of emissions? Because everything needs to get to carbon-neutral, through its own emission reduction, offsets, or CO2 removal. If we don't demand each industry achieve that, and instead force greater reductions in other industries, then we ARE subsidizing a polluting industry - which is the candidate's original complaint.


Yes of course trains, buses and EVs are usually much more carbon efficient on a per passenger basis. I should have specified that my statement is in the context of civil aviation. Depending on the configuration, a first class seat can occupy the space of five economy seats, add the weight of extra luggage, extra catering or even water for on-board showers (an extreme example admittedly) and quickly the emissions climb for transporting amenities rather than people. Not that I am advocating for a ban on these things, I just believe that all environmental costs involved should be internalized as much as possible.
Indeed as you say, often climate-action is discredited in civil aviation due to its comparatively small emissions at the moment. This relative emissions will however climb as other emitters turn carbon neutral. Furthermore, de-carbonizing civil aviation is much more challenging than other sectors with the current state of technology. As such, a debate on aviation climate policy seems overdue.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 1:29 pm

To bad for MUC then, good for FRA/DUS/CGN/BER/LEJ/STR

DUS is okay for ICE trains but only a few stop at the airport. CGN is even worse as is BER (very limited IC only). LEJ has NO ICE stop. Have you ever connected via the main station? STR is scaling down its airport train station under construction reducing the number of trains stopping.

I am using those trains and I try to connect at airports. This is why I know it doesn't just work right away. I takes too long in many, in most cases.
Last edited by Noshow on Mon May 17, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PhilipBass
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:30 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 1:32 pm

The reports which claim that trains, buses and EVs are more carbon efficient are deeply flawed and cannot be taken at face value.
They take no account of sunk costs and make assumptions about passenger density.
If the Greens do succeed in diverting passengers in number to other forms of transport then more motorways and rail lines will be built with even more sunk costs that will not be accounted for.
If you care about the environment then continue to fly with LCCs, boycott airlines who don't commit to updating their fleet and shake the CO2 heavy players in the market out.
In Europe at least if the price of air travel goes up then people won't switch to public transport, they will take their cars on all but the longest of routes and the per seat cost for cars work on the assumption that they are full when there are usually only one or two passengers in a car.
Green Party dogma is that aviation is dirty. They will not listen to reason and they will drive the professionals in this industry out of a job. No need to be helping them.
The Greens never talk about solutions to problems like higher bio-fuel percentages or the next generation of turboprop or higher bypass jet engines or more efficient routing of flight paths. They ignore that nations on the periphery of Europe will become impoverished second class citizens of the Union if their ability to enjoy free movement is curtailed.
ATR, Embraer, Viking all have plans for more efficient Turboprops airframes, The turboprop and jet engine manufacturers have plans for more efficient engines. They just need a little bit more carrot rather than stick but you can't convince a Green party leader of that as their dogma is set in stone and they are intent on dragging the rest of us back to the stone age.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14516
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 1:38 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
If the Greens .


Ramping up CO2 pricing is pretty much consensus among larger parties here, its not just "the greens", and the constitutional court just made speeding up climate politics mandatory. Killing of short haul flying is a low hanging fruit.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 1:56 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
The Greens never talk about solutions to problems like higher bio-fuel percentages or the next generation of turboprop or higher bypass jet engines or more efficient routing of flight paths.

They actually do (though bio-fuels are a hot topic due to their competition with food crops, the need for pesticides, and the often unsustainable farming methods for oil seeds, including the destruction of tropical forests). You should read more than just newspaper headlines. More efficient routing is included in the EU's Single European Sky initiative as part of the 'Green Deal', for example.

However, a 10% bio-fuel addition or a 10% efficiency increase isn't enough when there's the option for a 90% emissions reduction by switching to railways with renewable electricity. There are some markets where that's not feasible due to natural obstacles like mountains or water, or where the low population density doesn't warrant railways. But there are plenty of high-demand city pairs where flying is easily replacable.


By the way, just today the German minister of transport (from the conservative party, not the greens!) said:
"Wir haben im Übrigen beim Klimaschutzprogramm 2019 auch intensiv darüber gesprochen, dass es Flüge zu Dumpingpreisen nicht mehr geben soll".

"Incidentally, in the 2019 climate protection program, we also talked intensively about the fact that there should no longer be flights sold at dumping prices."

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/scheue ... l-101.html
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 1:57 pm

Why is short haul bad? Dirty is bad and noisy and not efficient.
Why not support modern fleets being used in the most efficient ways?
This should be about science not ideology.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:01 pm

A 600 km flight can often be replaced with a rail trip
A 6000 km flight can very rarely be replaced with a rail trip

If you can't achieve everything, then you want to do the easier things first. That means persuading the short haul air passenger to switch to rail

The aviation industry has a choice - either act voluntarily to reduce carbon emissions and hopefully do it in a way that is in its own interests... or wait for Govt to pass laws. If Govt forces change, you can be certain aviation will be given a worse time
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Mon May 17, 2021 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14266
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:15 pm

Personally I'm not in favor of specific taxes, I think a global (EU wide at first) carbon tax would work wonders. Global as in affecting everything. Currently fuel for cars in Europe is HUGELY taxed, historically to lower demand for oil imports, well, now we want to lower CO2 emissions. Taxing more fuel for cars isn't really an option and would be unjust, if fuel for planes isn't taxed. When I say everything, I mean everything, meat would attract the tax, any food would, relative to its emissions, transport (transport is easy, you do it through the fuel, so in fact it's already done), packaging, etc.

Here in France there is also a CO2 tax on cars when you buy one, if your car emits above a threshold / km you pay, for the first few grams of CO2 it's tiny, but it goes up fast. A gas guzzling sports car / giant SUV will attract a 30000€ tax. That money goes directly to pay for incentives to buy electric cars (7000€ grant to buy an EV).

I actually disagree with that system, I think the taxes on fuel are enough to incentivize people to buy efficient cars, gas guzzling cars were only bought by rich people already. Even luxury cars were bought with tiny engines before the introduction of that tax.

On the other hand if you buy a Cirrus SR22 with its 9l engine burning 67l of avgas per hour, there is no tax on that plane, just regular VAT. Same if you buy a business jet. In fact you would probably set up some kind of company to not even pay VAT.

The SR22 will pay tax on the fuel, in France, though, avgas is expensive. Jet-A, not so much.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:32 pm

Another example: A new built ATR is some efficient "green" plane. Why should it be forbidden to use it? There are MANY routes where no competitive high speed train is available and will not be for some long time. How is Europe's common market supposed to grow together if no domestic travel is permitted? I certainly support more efficient and cleaner ways but something that does the job please. And for everyone not only for the rich.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:42 pm

Noshow wrote:
There are MANY routes where no competitive high speed train is available and will not be for some long time. How is Europe's common market supposed to grow together if no domestic travel is permitted?

Simple, just tie the permission (or fees) to serve a route to the availability of fast (and efficient) ground transport. The new French regulations depend on if the train can do the trip in 2.5h or less. Something similar could be instituted for the entire EU.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:54 pm

So I will need to ask my "legal guardian" administration to permit all my moves and register them in advance? I expect this to be as popular as their "veggie day" forced no meat food plans that massively backfired.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 2:55 pm

Noshow wrote:
Another example: A new built ATR is some efficient "green" plane. Why should it be forbidden to use it? There are MANY routes where no competitive high speed train is available and will not be for some long time. How is Europe's common market supposed to grow together if no domestic travel is permitted? I certainly support more efficient and cleaner ways but something that does the job please. And for everyone not only for the rich.


Why do you keep repeating this incorrect soundbite nonsense of yours of flying is not permitted? Where are you getting this from because you are certainly not reading what was actually said?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9647
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 3:06 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
The reports which claim that trains, buses and EVs are more carbon efficient are deeply flawed and cannot be taken at face value.
They take no account of sunk costs and make assumptions about passenger density.
If the Greens do succeed in diverting passengers in number to other forms of transport then more motorways and rail lines will be built with even more sunk costs that will not be accounted for.
If you care about the environment then continue to fly with LCCs, boycott airlines who don't commit to updating their fleet and shake the CO2 heavy players in the market out.
In Europe at least if the price of air travel goes up then people won't switch to public transport, they will take their cars on all but the longest of routes and the per seat cost for cars work on the assumption that they are full when there are usually only one or two passengers in a car.
Green Party dogma is that aviation is dirty. They will not listen to reason and they will drive the professionals in this industry out of a job. No need to be helping them.
The Greens never talk about solutions to problems like higher bio-fuel percentages or the next generation of turboprop or higher bypass jet engines or more efficient routing of flight paths. They ignore that nations on the periphery of Europe will become impoverished second class citizens of the Union if their ability to enjoy free movement is curtailed.
ATR, Embraer, Viking all have plans for more efficient Turboprops airframes, The turboprop and jet engine manufacturers have plans for more efficient engines. They just need a little bit more carrot rather than stick but you can't convince a Green party leader of that as their dogma is set in stone and they are intent on dragging the rest of us back to the stone age.


The new build fast railway line, Berlin to München, has seen increased traffic. It started with 16 double trains (about 460 seats each train and 920 a double train) a day, 5 are "sprint trains" doing the trip in 3::55, the other normal ICE take 4:30 with more stops. The trains run hourly. The DB has already added trains on this line. There is no way you do this by car in a similar time, it is about 600 km. Normal prices are 34 EUR and start at 13.40 EUR. If your trip is city center to city center, it will beat flying.
In 2018 the passenger numbers on this connection were 3.6 million by train and about 2 million by air. I assume that the 2 million by air include a considerable number of passengers transferring in München to another flight.
The capacity is about 5.4 million seat by train, so the average is 66% used seats over 365 days, morning day and night. (2018 numbers)

Similar things we will see happen with other high speed connections in Europe when they open. When we look at Germany we will not see any drastic changes, but the mainlines are successive rebuild and will allow higher speeds and often more direct connections.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 3:10 pm

Why do you keep repeating this incorrect soundbite nonsense of yours of flying is not permitted? Where are you getting this from because you are certainly not reading what was actually said?

Because I read german language newspapers and am a little more informed about the election campaign programs. And I am a real world heavy train user and not depending on hearsay how fast or easy to connect trains are instead of flying. Try to arrive at Munich airport in the evening and connect by train to Stuttgart as an example. A short flight but hours of train ride.
 
masi1157
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 3:37 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why do you keep repeating this incorrect soundbite nonsense of yours of flying is not permitted? Where are you getting this from because you are certainly not reading what was actually said?

Because I read german language newspapers and am a little more informed about the election campaign programs. And I am a real world heavy train user and not depending on hearsay how fast or easy to connect trains are instead of flying. Try to arrive at Munich airport in the evening and connect by train to Stuttgart as an example. A short flight but hours of train ride.

That doesn't answer his question.


Gruß, masi1157
517 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9647
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 3:42 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why do you keep repeating this incorrect soundbite nonsense of yours of flying is not permitted? Where are you getting this from because you are certainly not reading what was actually said?

Because I read german language newspapers and am a little more informed about the election campaign programs. And I am a real world heavy train user and not depending on hearsay how fast or easy to connect trains are instead of flying. Try to arrive at Munich airport in the evening and connect by train to Stuttgart as an example. A short flight but hours of train ride.


Why do you bring strange examples? The flight Berlin Stuttgart is hardly longer than Berlin München and the train ride from München to Stuttgart is hardly a high speed connection. Add to it the transfer from the Airport to the main train station in München. Combining air travel with train travel is only sensible in certain places.
The passenger numbers Berlin Stuttgart is the third busiest route from Berlin and I assume far less transfer passengers than München or Frankfurt.
AFAIK there are anyway no flights between Stuttgart and München.

If we look at the French example with under 2.5 hours by train, only certain routes would apply. For example Berlin Hamburg with under 2 hours by train, over 3 hours by car and 40 minutes by air. City center to city center no question what is the most convenient.
And looking at München Stuttgart, city center to city center we talk even with the rather slow connection of only about 2:15 by rail.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 3:47 pm

I did not mention Berlin why do you?
My example is any flight arrival in the evening at Munich airport and continuing to Stuttgart. This is an example how a short distance cannot adequately be covered by train but by connecting flight. This is not strange but it is a real world example from my own experience.

Take a Zürich airport arrival and continue to Stuttgart by train if you like as another example. Short flight vs. very long train journey.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9647
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 4:17 pm

Noshow wrote:
I did not mention Berlin why do you?
My example is any flight arrival in the evening at Munich airport and continuing to Stuttgart. This is an example how a short distance cannot adequately be covered by train but by connecting flight. This is not strange but it is a real world example from my own experience.

Take a Zürich airport arrival and continue to Stuttgart by train if you like as another example. Short flight vs. very long train journey.


München to Stuttgart, there is anyway no connection by air as it is. And checking the train ride from München airport it is 3 hours to Stuttgart, including the train from the airport into town.

Zürich Kloten is 3:15 by train and that includes the train into Zürich. Again flights not available.

But flying into Frankfurt would make the train ride 1:20 to Stuttgart, again no flights available. So if you chose your connection point well.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 4:39 pm

Right now we have a federal lockdown in Germany due to Covid-19 and some very limited schedule. I have been on flights and trains from Zurich and Munich to Stuttgart.
 
Interflug74
Topic Author
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 4:42 pm

If i need an vacation, or an trip to Mallorca (you name it) i´ll do it, no matter the price. it is this daily political actionism that happend in germany that annoys a lot of people. With start of the year, the price for gas/fuel was raised 30 Cent per Liter. To made alternative ways to travel and electric cars more interesting. A lot, most, of poeple need their cars on a daily basis, and have not their own driveway where the can load a car overnight, because they need to park at the side of the road. Then the discussion, of not beeing allowed to build private houses in the future, because they are so bad for the CO2 household, started by the greens, who all have private property and houses. Every day, one of these things made the news, and we are told how bad we germans behave in terms of climate policy. And how much more we have to pay, this or that way. As we dont have other problems anyway. Someone mentioned the Yellow Jacket´s in france. If you talk to people, it´s not that far away.

If this weekend would be election weekend:
https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/ (Grüne,Gruene = Greens)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9647
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 4:56 pm

There could could also be a nice effect of reduced domestic flying, instead of collecting all the passengers in two or three hubs, more direct flights from more airports.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 993
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 4:59 pm

Are you trying to distract us from discusing the policy by bringing up the travel habits of German politicians? Presumably there would be no exemption for green party politicians in the new law.


No, I think the poster was trying to say, "Pot, kettle calling." That's how I read it, anyway.

Very often, the same people who call or restrictions are the very ones who are breaking those self-sale rules or guidelines or whatever. Before trying to change the world one short haul flight at a time, perhaps the Green Party should lead by example and stop taking said short haul flights. Anyway, that's how I read it.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9647
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 5:02 pm

https://www.zeit.de/mobilitaet/2021-05/ ... lugverkehr

here is a slightly different perspective on the domestic flight "ban".

Domestic flying is anyway dying in Germany apart from collecting transit passengers to a few hubs. Only the longest flights like Hamburg München still make sense.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 5:03 pm

It would be way smarter if the greens would propose to make trains cheaper or maybe even free (now that would be radical) instead of trying to fight other means of transportation like aviation. Trains are so expensive at regular fares in Germany and for people not riding frequently or knowing offers and tricks on the agenda, that a parallel layer of long distance buses is used by the less wealthy normal folks. But again the greens seem to lack the social empathy.
While I agree to we should better protect the environment it is way too much ideology for my taste and too much arrogance wanting to control other people freedom and lifestyles.
 
Jalap
Posts: 670
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Green party candidate for chancellor Baerbock want to ban short haul and LCC flights when she becomes chancellor

Mon May 17, 2021 5:56 pm

PSA727 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

Where on Earth do you get that idea from?

Didn't you hear? Everyone wants to pay higher airfare to save the planet!!

According to a survey by the European Investment Bank, 72% of Europeans is ok with higher tax.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-eu-flights-idUSKBN20X2RA

And, taking the avgeek-hat off, it would be very logical for governments to take action. Perhaps the aviation industry has been pampered for too long. I'm quite sure it'll continue to survive and thrive with a bit less of that pampering.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10255
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 6:13 pm

The only mistake is that it is too little and too late. The Corona crisis showed how much people need to fly.
 
willfinn
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 6:32 pm

Interflug74 wrote:
If i need an vacation, or an trip to Mallorca (you name it) i´ll do it, no matter the price. it is this daily political actionism that happend in germany that annoys a lot of people. With start of the year, the price for gas/fuel was raised 30 Cent per Liter. To made alternative ways to travel and electric cars more interesting. A lot, most, of poeple need their cars on a daily basis, and have not their own driveway where the can load a car overnight, because they need to park at the side of the road. Then the discussion, of not beeing allowed to build private houses in the future, because they are so bad for the CO2 household, started by the greens, who all have private property and houses. Every day, one of these things made the news, and we are told how bad we germans behave in terms of climate policy. And how much more we have to pay, this or that way. As we dont have other problems anyway. Someone mentioned the Yellow Jacket´s in france. If you talk to people, it´s not that far away.

If this weekend would be election weekend:
https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/ (Grüne,Gruene = Greens)


The situation in Finland is much the same.

Those who are most forcefully driven by blind ideology are the least likely to understand the world around them, as ideology distorts one’s perception. One of our former presidents is quoted with: ”Accepting the surrounding realities is the cornerstone of any successful policy.” The Greens are not, in my observation, too keen on realities.

When I was a wee snapper, politicians used to observe the needs and challenges of the society around them and formulate policy according to those observations.

Today, politicians formulate an ideology, and if the society around them does not conform to that ideology, the politicians set about reforming it — and more importantly, its inhabitants.

— Back to topic —

France and Germany are unique in the sense that both have an existing, viable, alternative for short haul flights. Chancellor-to-be’s proposal is something that CAN be done, which lies in the heart of political decision-making. Politicians always ask: ”Is this something we can do.” They never ask: ”Is this something we should do.”

Flying is all about conquering obstacles, including physical ones. If those obstacles have been removed by high speed rail, I see nothing wrong with moving away from aviation.
 
fraT
Posts: 1184
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 7:03 pm

The problem with the high speed railways is that there are only very few of them in Germany. The first one was the "Rheintallinie" from Cologne to Frankfurt. And what happened? LH stopped flying this route (same with DUS-FRA). I don't think the same will happen on BER-MUC because the distance is significantly longer. But with the increasing train frequency, there will be less flights.
But those are exceptions. New high speed railway tracks are the exception and like with all infrastructure projects, it takes years for the planning/completion. And often this is delayed by people suing against them. The "funny" thing is that these "Bürgerinitiativen" have close contacts and overlappings with the Green party - NYMBYs at its best.

The LH CEO mentioned last week that in France there were four routes discontinued because of the new law. And if the exact same law would be signed in Germany, it would affect only one or two routes (probably NUE-FRA and/or STR-FRA). Not sure if that is true.

The main problem with the domestic flights is that a significant number of passengers are using it as a feeder flight. Yes, FRA airport is well connected to high speed trains which gives people from DUS/CGN/STR/NUE a good alternative. But connections from HAM/BER/LEJ are much less convenient. MUC is totally different story and geographically worse located within Germany. Traveling from NUE/STR is a hassle with trains to connect to a flight so without a new train concept, I see no way to move passengers from the air to the tracks. The political discussion seems to always focus on the domestic flying but leaves out the feeder passengers. And by forbidding the domestic flights, a green government would move the transfer passengers to carriers outside of Germany since those flights would still exist although (in some cases) just marginally longer.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2406
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: German Green party candidate for chancellor want to ban short haul and implement tax

Mon May 17, 2021 7:06 pm

I use high speed rail all the time and let me tell you it won't lead you fast to every place you need to go to. Should we improve it? Yes. Should we halt regional flying? No.
New aircraft engine rules are coming up already for cleaner engines. We have tight operating hours and noise restrictions. This is where politics should support and trigger technical progress.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos