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ahj2000
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Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:05 pm

Looks like F9 is leaving LA for ONT and BUR, with only a 3weekly flight to DEN for the rest of the summer season.
Wasn’t expecting that… certainly the first to call uncle in the giant pit of competition that is LAX. Surprised they didn’t at least keep 2x DEN.

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Insertnamehere
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm

How big was F9s operation at LAX at its peak?

I thought that F9 had a decently sized operation there, never knew that things were so bad for them there that it would only be 3x weekly flight into one of the largest airports in the world.
 
joeblow10
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:21 pm

I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast. Fitch has cost per enplanement reaching $30 by 2026 based on debt service, and they’re adding even more debt to be paid after that. At one point there was a jaw dropping projection it would go over $40 and even approach $50 if they didn’t find a way to rework the debt schedule. I can’t find the document anymore but it was floating around.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/i ... 13-02-2020

I would be surprised if the ULCC crowd is around LAX in any substantial capacity by 2030. Maybe NK... but only due to volume to help drive some of the costs down.

F9 is getting ahead of the move. I would bet the remaining LAX-DEN service is gone entirely down the road.
Last edited by joeblow10 on Mon May 17, 2021 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:26 pm

I think F9 normally had 4 to 6 flights a day out of LAX.
 
jplatts
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:35 pm

AA, DL, UA, WN, and NK all still serve both DEN and LAS nonstop from LAX.

ATL still has nonstop service from LAX on AA, DL, and NK.
PHL still has nonstop service from LAX on AA and NK (with NK being less-than-daily).
MCO still has nonstop service from LAX on AA, DL, UA, and B6, but WN or NK adding LAX-MCO nonstop service might be a possibility.
PHX still has nonstop service from LAX on AA, DL, UA, and WN, but NK adding LAX-PHX or G4 adding LAX-AZA might be possibilities.

F9 previously had seasonal nonstop service to CVG from LAX, but DL and G4 still serve CVG nonstop from LAX.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:36 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast. Fitch has cost per enplanement reaching $30 by 2026 based on debt service, and they’re adding even more debt to be paid after that. At one point there was a jaw dropping projection it would go over $40 and even approach $50 if they didn’t find a way to rework the debt schedule. I can’t find the document anymore but it was floating around.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/i ... 13-02-2020

I would be surprised if the ULCC crowd is around LAX in any substantial capacity by 2030. Maybe NK... but only due to volume to help drive some of the costs down.

F9 is getting ahead of the move. I would bet the remaining LAX-DEN service is gone entirely down the road.


Yes, but we also see that airlines recognize that one airport may not be a perfect substitute for another: UA going back to JFK; WN using both SFO/OAK, ORD/MDW, FLL/MIA; DL had been using both HOU and IAH, and ORD and MDW.

Will present LAX travelers go to ONT or BUR to save $20? I wouldn't bet on it. LAWA thinks they won't.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:42 pm

Setting aside the desirability factor, I wonder if you will see a move by carriers like F9 and NK to ONT - setting up ONT as the main LCC hub (similar to what we see at airports like STN and LTN).
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Mon May 17, 2021 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 12:47 pm

LAX is hard to get reliable workers at a lower price. I think in ONT and BUR you have more people closer to those airports. You at least get more reliable stable workers for the same price. LAX is a tough place to commute too for a low salary and traffic is coming back. Mass transit to lax is less then ideal
 
hpff
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 1:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Will present LAX travelers go to ONT or BUR to save $20? I wouldn't bet on it. LAWA thinks they won't.


Los Angeles is such a large market that a BUR-DEN or ONT-DEN round trip that's $60 cheaper than anything that can be offered LAX-DEN will be able to grab at least some market share from people who would otherwise use LAX.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 1:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast. Fitch has cost per enplanement reaching $30 by 2026 based on debt service, and they’re adding even more debt to be paid after that. At one point there was a jaw dropping projection it would go over $40 and even approach $50 if they didn’t find a way to rework the debt schedule. I can’t find the document anymore but it was floating around.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/i ... 13-02-2020

I would be surprised if the ULCC crowd is around LAX in any substantial capacity by 2030. Maybe NK... but only due to volume to help drive some of the costs down.

F9 is getting ahead of the move. I would bet the remaining LAX-DEN service is gone entirely down the road.


Yes, but we also see that airlines recognize that one airport may not be a perfect substitute for another: UA going back to JFK; WN using both SFO/OAK, ORD/MDW, FLL/MIA; DL had been using both HOU and IAH, and ORD and MDW.

Will present LAX travelers go to ONT or BUR to save $20? I wouldn't bet on it. LAWA thinks they won't.


When DL and WN serve multiple airports in a metro, what they're really doing is trying to capture a greater share of travel from passengers who are already loyal to them. I fly WN quite a bit because I live in a "hub" city, but sometimes I have flown UA or AA to ORD or IAH because for that particular trip the need or desire for that particular airport overrides loyalty to WN. F9 isn't really in the loyalty game because they don't have a comprehensive network anywhere. Their model is more about profit on an individual segment/city pair basis.
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wnflyguy
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 1:35 pm

With DL tentatively giving back 7 slots at LGB in OCT when the covid slot waver is said to expire. F9 could technically get a minimum of 4 slots this time around then try for additional slots in the airport lottery.
With this being the new ULCC F9 it could actually make LGB work this time around. It could ride the waves of the Southwest effect on the airport which has successfully given the airport a broader customer base vs the limited base JetBlue suffocated in.

Enjoy or Don't
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 1:49 pm

Anyone else remember when AS served BUR, ONT, and SNA but not LAX and they had that ad that said "How to get around L.A."? This move kind of reminds me of that,
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tphuang
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 1:56 pm

Keep in mind that F9 was getting pushed to MSC. Maybe they just figured that they can get the same yield at BUR/ONT vs the horrible inconvenience of checking-in at T1.5 and then bused to MSC.

It's interesting that G4 arrived at a different conclusion.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 2:22 pm

hpff wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Will present LAX travelers go to ONT or BUR to save $20? I wouldn't bet on it. LAWA thinks they won't.


Los Angeles is such a large market that a BUR-DEN or ONT-DEN round trip that's $60 cheaper than anything that can be offered LAX-DEN will be able to grab at least some market share from people who would otherwise use LAX.


It's not going to be a $60 difference in r/t cost, not for passengers, not for the operating carriers.

Everybody whines about quality (and capacity) of major U.S. airports, and then they whine when per-enplanement fees go up when the airport authority has an expansion or refurb plan.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 2:27 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
When DL and WN serve multiple airports in a metro, what they're really doing is trying to capture a greater share of travel from passengers who are already loyal to them.


That doesn't negate my point in the least. WN started service from ORD because they know some flyers (loyal, or independent) just won't drive to MDW - without a significant price reduction that crushes yields.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 2:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
When DL and WN serve multiple airports in a metro, what they're really doing is trying to capture a greater share of travel from passengers who are already loyal to them.


That doesn't negate my point in the least. WN started service from ORD because they know some flyers (loyal, or independent) just won't drive to MDW - without a significant price reduction that crushes yields.


I think that's right. I'm just not sure F9 cares about losing LAX passengers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
joeblow10
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 3:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
hpff wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Will present LAX travelers go to ONT or BUR to save $20? I wouldn't bet on it. LAWA thinks they won't.


Los Angeles is such a large market that a BUR-DEN or ONT-DEN round trip that's $60 cheaper than anything that can be offered LAX-DEN will be able to grab at least some market share from people who would otherwise use LAX.


It's not going to be a $60 difference in r/t cost, not for passengers, not for the operating carriers.

Everybody whines about quality (and capacity) of major U.S. airports, and then they whine when per-enplanement fees go up when the airport authority has an expansion or refurb plan.


Every airport expands, updates, etc... but most keep it under control when it comes to cost. $30 isn’t unheard of (though, it was really only NYC airports), but the $40 and $50 figures thrown out were certainly unparalleled.

The legacies can maybe scrape by and make money at those prices - but you can forget the low cost crowd.

Just points of reference - per the FAA, ATL had a sub $3 cost per enplanement and SEA had a $13 one in 2019. Both are renovating/expanding ... yet keeping costs somewhat under control.
 
Av8rDAL
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 3:04 pm

I wonder how many of F9's clientele would actually prefer to go out of BUR, ONT, or LGB vs. making the trip all the way down to LAX. I personally look for more convenient, smaller airports around L.A. for business travel that takes me to northern suburbs or out east towards San Bernardino, etc. They are or would be smart to evaluate that possibility, especially if space becomes available.
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dstblj52
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
hpff wrote:

Los Angeles is such a large market that a BUR-DEN or ONT-DEN round trip that's $60 cheaper than anything that can be offered LAX-DEN will be able to grab at least some market share from people who would otherwise use LAX.


It's not going to be a $60 difference in r/t cost, not for passengers, not for the operating carriers.

Everybody whines about quality (and capacity) of major U.S. airports, and then they whine when per-enplanement fees go up when the airport authority has an expansion or refurb plan.


Every airport expands, updates, etc... but most keep it under control when it comes to cost. $30 isn’t unheard of (though, it was really only NYC airports), but the $40 and $50 figures thrown out were certainly unparalleled.

The legacies can maybe scrape by and make money at those prices - but you can forget the low cost crowd.

Just points of reference - per the FAA, ATL had a sub $3 cost per enplanement and SEA had a $13 one in 2019. Both are renovating/expanding ... yet keeping costs somewhat under control.

MIA was going to get that high but general people move debts around to keep costs lower on paper at least
 
airlinewatcher1
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm

It looks like F9 is still serving SNA / Orange County to DEN and LAS for now, in addition to ONT and BUR.

I also noticed that Avelo is marketing BUR as a convenient, closer alternative to LAX. F9 seems to be replicating Avelo's strategy (and Allegiant) of going to smaller, alternative airports when they can and when it seems to make the most sense.

LAX simply has too much competition to make it worth it for F9. The big 4 all serve DEN-LAX, in addition to NK.

I do find it interesting that B6 chose the opposite in regards to LGB and LAX.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 3:47 pm

Both G4 and NK plus B6 all increase their LAX footprint, and F9 reduces.

That is what is called competition.
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LAXintl
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 4:02 pm

F9 was really never big at LAX. Their peak was more than a decade ago when they attempted to make LAX a focus city launch a bunch of new destinations like MSP, SFO, plus Mexico and created nuclear war with competition and quickly retreated.

joeblow10 wrote:
I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast.


Other airports in the region will also see substantial increases - particularly BUR as the new terminal comes closer to fruition.

LGB as well is increasing with the next phase of their ongoing modernization projects.

Ultimately fees are largely reliant on passenger volumes and industry recovery.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
LAX is hard to get reliable workers at a lower price. I think in ONT and BUR you have more people closer to those airports. You at least get more reliable stable workers for the same price. LAX is a tough place to commute too for a low salary and traffic is coming back. Mass transit to lax is less then ideal


Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

So, no LAX pay is not the same price as other airports in the region.
Last edited by LAXintl on Mon May 17, 2021 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TerminalD
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 4:04 pm

The title of the thread was just changed to say LAX is only reduced not closed. The link says they confirmed it is closing. Which is it?????
 
tphuang
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 4:13 pm

Also, what is the gate situation like at BUR? I was under the impression that WN was trying to be utilize the gates as much as possible pre-pandemic. Not sure how much space there is for F9 and Avelo.
 
alohashirts
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 4:23 pm

Interesting that G4 wants to grow Lax.
 
ScottB
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 4:23 pm

TerminalD wrote:
The title of the thread was just changed to say LAX is only reduced not closed. The link says they confirmed it is closing. Which is it?????


I think the implication from the linked story is that LAX-DEN only sticks around at 3x weekly for the remainder of the summer, and then that will be dropped as well. So reduced in the near term, and dropped entirely in September.

tphuang wrote:
Also, what is the gate situation like at BUR? I was under the impression that WN was trying to be utilize the gates as much as possible pre-pandemic. Not sure how much space there is for F9 and Avelo.


Despite all the noise, Frontier and Avelo combined probably need at most two gates. I'd expect more of an impact on the other tenants as WN used maybe half the gates for around three-quarters of traffic pre-pandemic.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:04 pm

LAXintl wrote:
F9 was really never big at LAX. Their peak was more than a decade ago when they attempted to make LAX a focus city launch a bunch of new destinations like MSP, SFO, plus Mexico and created nuclear war with competition and quickly retreated.

joeblow10 wrote:
I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast.


Other airports in the region will also see substantial increases - particularly BUR as the new terminal comes closer to fruition.

LGB as well is increasing with the next phase of their ongoing modernization projects.

Ultimately fees are largely reliant on passenger volumes and industry recovery.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
LAX is hard to get reliable workers at a lower price. I think in ONT and BUR you have more people closer to those airports. You at least get more reliable stable workers for the same price. LAX is a tough place to commute too for a low salary and traffic is coming back. Mass transit to lax is less then ideal


Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

So, no LAX pay is not the same price as other airports in the region.


Great memory! If I remember correctly, this was their offering at various times from 2004-2007/2008 out of LAX.

*DEN- 8 daily at its peak (after WN entered DEN)
*SFO- 4 daily
*SJD- 1 daily for sure (there may have been a second flight some days)
*MSP- 2 daily
*MCI- 2 daily
*STL- 2 daily
*PHL- 1 daily (it was appropriately numbered as flight 1776 on the outbound and was a redeye. Flight was dropped when WN started flying the route).

MSP, MCI, STL and PHL were all inaugurated at the same time.
 
alasizon
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:27 pm

ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Also, what is the gate situation like at BUR? I was under the impression that WN was trying to be utilize the gates as much as possible pre-pandemic. Not sure how much space there is for F9 and Avelo.


Despite all the noise, Frontier and Avelo combined probably need at most two gates. I'd expect more of an impact on the other tenants as WN used maybe half the gates for around three-quarters of traffic pre-pandemic.


B1 is DL
B2 Is UA
B3/B4 is common use for Avelo, Spirit, and Alaska with most DL/UA overflow going to B3
B5 is AS
A1-A6 is all WN
A7 is AA/WN overflow (primarily WN daily use)
A8 is AA
A9 is B6 and AA/WN overflow

Even with the new terminal, gates will still be tight but will end up being more flexible, particularly as the gates will all accommodate 738s. I see it being 1 will be B6 plus AS and AA overflow and likely an early morning WN turn for utilization purposes, 2 will be AA, 3 will be AS, 4 will be WN plus any other AS/AA overflow, 5-10 will be WN, 11 will be DL, 12 will be UA, 13-14 will be common use for whomever needs it (schedules coordinated with the airport authority). There is room also to schedule turns around UA's schedule (and DL's if they don't resume BUR-ATL), that they may just end up with a slot at the common use gate and have to deal with it.
Last edited by alasizon on Mon May 17, 2021 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TerminalD
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:30 pm

ScottB wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
The title of the thread was just changed to say LAX is only reduced not closed. The link says they confirmed it is closing. Which is it?????


I think the implication from the linked story is that LAX-DEN only sticks around at 3x weekly for the remainder of the summer, and then that will be dropped as well. So reduced in the near term, and dropped entirely in September.

tphuang wrote:
Also, what is the gate situation like at BUR? I was under the impression that WN was trying to be utilize the gates as much as possible pre-pandemic. Not sure how much space there is for F9 and Avelo.


Despite all the noise, Frontier and Avelo combined probably need at most two gates. I'd expect more of an impact on the other tenants as WN used maybe half the gates for around three-quarters of traffic pre-pandemic.

But it is still dropped, not reduced. It’s just reduced until it’s dropped. Whoever changed it didn’t read the story I guess. I don’t understand why things like that happen here.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
Keep in mind that F9 was getting pushed to MSC. Maybe they just figured that they can get the same yield at BUR/ONT vs the horrible inconvenience of checking-in at T1.5 and then bused to MSC.

What exactly is so "horrible" about that?

And it's not like it's unique to F9:
AA, UA, VB, WN, and especially DL are all currently busing at LAX, to some extent.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Mon May 17, 2021 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:37 pm

F9 seems to have finally found a prime opportunity to grow in the Southern California market: at ONT. New BUR services could offer folks in Los Angeles and other coastal areas excellent network access via DEN, LAS and PHX. Why bother with LAX, where F9 and its passengers may soon have to endure long bus rides and other substandard experiences that could make the airline far less appealing than its direct competitors?
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Nicknuzzii
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:51 pm

F9 have confirmed they are leaving LAX. Time to change the title back.
 
tphuang
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 5:56 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Keep in mind that F9 was getting pushed to MSC. Maybe they just figured that they can get the same yield at BUR/ONT vs the horrible inconvenience of checking-in at T1.5 and then bused to MSC.

What exactly is so "horrible" about that?

And it's not like it's unique to F9:
AA, UA, VB, WN, and especially DL are all currently busing at LAX, to some extent.


I'm just hypothesizing, because HA used that to complain about a move from T-5 to MSC.
 
toga998
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 6:01 pm

I go well out of my way to avoid LAX at all costs, even if means driving the Metro area and using BUR, ONT and SNA. Man, even a drive out to PSP or SAN if the price is right. The astronomical parking fees, traffic and overall inefficiency of LAX is a huge turn off. LAX is a great international long haul gateway but a pain in the a** for anything else.
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: Frontier to leave LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 6:04 pm

tphuang wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Keep in mind that F9 was getting pushed to MSC. Maybe they just figured that they can get the same yield at BUR/ONT vs the horrible inconvenience of checking-in at T1.5 and then bused to MSC.

What exactly is so "horrible" about that?

And it's not like it's unique to F9:
AA, UA, VB, WN, and especially DL are all currently busing at LAX, to some extent.


I'm just hypothesizing, because HA used that to complain about a move from T-5 to MSC.


Somebody just posted in the JetBlue thread that it looks like HA is definitely moving to TBIT West, due to widebody gates no longer being available in T5 after modernization.

https://lawa.granicus.com/MetaViewer.ph ... a_id=50274

With F9 and G4 leaving T5 too, is this how B6 will get more gate space? Wonder what NK will do...
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 6:22 pm

toga998 wrote:
I go well out of my way to avoid LAX at all costs, even if means driving the Metro area and using BUR, ONT and SNA. Man, even a drive out to PSP or SAN if the price is right. The astronomical parking fees, traffic and overall inefficiency of LAX is a huge turn off. LAX is a great international long haul gateway but a pain in the a** for anything else.


Lots of people feel this way about LAX but there is so much competition and prices are sometimes so much lower it sucks people in. With covid and some having a fear of being around so many people there might be more of a motivation to avoid LAX and will drive further, willing to a pay a small premium or connect then in 2019. The parking, car rentals and traffic are so bad at LAX even if some other airport is an extra 45 minutes you can usually make the time back easily. I dont think its a bad move for Frontier
 
alohashirts
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 7:09 pm

I wonder if F9 will try and grow at SNA too or just focus it’s Los Angeles area mainly at BUR and ONT.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 11:19 pm

How does one grow at SNA???
 
nine4nine
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Mon May 17, 2021 11:23 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
How does one grow at SNA???


You can’t. WN learned that. With the annual seat/slot cap its no easy task. Throw in the new entrants this year like SY, NK, and G4 and any growth is next to impossible.
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ScottB
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Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 5:15 am

nine4nine wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
How does one grow at SNA???


You can’t. WN learned that. With the annual seat/slot cap its no easy task. Throw in the new entrants this year like SY, NK, and G4 and any growth is next to impossible.


Even in spite of WN losing slots at SNA in recent years, they are still larger there than they were 15 years ago. For 2019, WN had 34% passenger share at SNA. In 2006, WN only had 25%. It's possible to grow, but it takes a lot of patience -- far more than we typically see from the ULCCs.
 
phllax
Posts: 677
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 5:24 am

airplaneboy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
F9 was really never big at LAX. Their peak was more than a decade ago when they attempted to make LAX a focus city launch a bunch of new destinations like MSP, SFO, plus Mexico and created nuclear war with competition and quickly retreated.

joeblow10 wrote:
I think there is more to the story here. Few people are aware that LAX is going to get very expensive, very fast.


Other airports in the region will also see substantial increases - particularly BUR as the new terminal comes closer to fruition.

LGB as well is increasing with the next phase of their ongoing modernization projects.

Ultimately fees are largely reliant on passenger volumes and industry recovery.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
LAX is hard to get reliable workers at a lower price. I think in ONT and BUR you have more people closer to those airports. You at least get more reliable stable workers for the same price. LAX is a tough place to commute too for a low salary and traffic is coming back. Mass transit to lax is less then ideal


Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

So, no LAX pay is not the same price as other airports in the region.


Great memory! If I remember correctly, this was their offering at various times from 2004-2007/2008 out of LAX.

*DEN- 8 daily at its peak (after WN entered DEN)
*SFO- 4 daily
*SJD- 1 daily for sure (there may have been a second flight some days)
*MSP- 2 daily
*MCI- 2 daily
*STL- 2 daily
*PHL- 1 daily (it was appropriately numbered as flight 1776 on the outbound and was a redeye. Flight was dropped when WN started flying the route).

MSP, MCI, STL and PHL were all inaugurated at the same time.


WN never flew PHL-LAX non-stop. It was either NK, VX, DL when VX pulled out, or VX/AS after the merger when DL pulled out.
 
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stl07
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 5:50 am

LAXintl wrote:
Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

Which is still a starvation wage in Los Angeles, especially once you factor in the prices of living on the westside. LA is a crazy place haha
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 784
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 5:54 am

phllax wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
F9 was really never big at LAX. Their peak was more than a decade ago when they attempted to make LAX a focus city launch a bunch of new destinations like MSP, SFO, plus Mexico and created nuclear war with competition and quickly retreated.



Other airports in the region will also see substantial increases - particularly BUR as the new terminal comes closer to fruition.

LGB as well is increasing with the next phase of their ongoing modernization projects.

Ultimately fees are largely reliant on passenger volumes and industry recovery.



Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

So, no LAX pay is not the same price as other airports in the region.


Great memory! If I remember correctly, this was their offering at various times from 2004-2007/2008 out of LAX.

*DEN- 8 daily at its peak (after WN entered DEN)
*SFO- 4 daily
*SJD- 1 daily for sure (there may have been a second flight some days)
*MSP- 2 daily
*MCI- 2 daily
*STL- 2 daily
*PHL- 1 daily (it was appropriately numbered as flight 1776 on the outbound and was a redeye. Flight was dropped when WN started flying the route).

MSP, MCI, STL and PHL were all inaugurated at the same time.


WN never flew PHL-LAX non-stop. It was either NK, VX, DL when VX pulled out, or VX/AS after the merger when DL pulled out.


I personally flew on that service in 2004. At the time, they were the only airline to offer live satellite tv at every seat along with JetBlue. The onboard service was amazing but never picked up enough traffic.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.denver ... route/amp/


“In early 2005, Frontier pulled out of a Los Angeles “focus city” effort that it started flights for in 2004.

In that effort, with flights from Los Angeles to Minneapolis, St. Louis, Philadelphia and Kansas City, Mo., heightened competition made it tough for Frontier to get customers, and flights ultimately flew with too many empty seats.”
 
NickLAX
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 5:57 am

stl07 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

Which is still a starvation wage in Los Angeles, especially once you factor in the prices of living on the westside. LA is a crazy place haha


Very few airport workers are living in the westside. Besides many have roommates and just deal with that. Your view of housing is very different from someone making much less. The LAX wages are still low but they aren't the insane deep poverty wages other businesses pay.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 6:54 am

Can't say I'm surprised. Even as airfares have swelled in recent weeks, F9 has still had plenty of sub-$20 airfares to LAS, LAX, etc.

stl07 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

Which is still a starvation wage in Los Angeles, especially once you factor in the prices of living on the westside. LA is a crazy place haha


LAX jobs are very attractive, considering they pay significantly more for similar work outside of the airport.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 8:30 am

Since F9 is adding ONT-ATL, cue DL adding 4 times daily ATL-ONT in 4...3..2....1....
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 8:34 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised. Even as airfares have swelled in recent weeks, F9 has still had plenty of sub-$20 airfares to LAS, LAX, etc.

stl07 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per City ordinance, the current minimum starting pay at LAX is $16.50 with full health benefits or $22.05 without.

Which is still a starvation wage in Los Angeles, especially once you factor in the prices of living on the westside. LA is a crazy place haha


LAX jobs are very attractive, considering they pay significantly more for similar work outside of the airport.

That's the sad part.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 9:42 am

Once again it should show the importance to build a new hub airport which have enough gate to serve both full service and LCC and can be operated 24 hours
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11687
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 10:46 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Once again it should show the importance to build a new hub airport which have enough gate to serve both full service and LCC and can be operated 24 hours

Gates or lack thereof and curfews are not the reasons why F9 is leaving LAX.
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Frontier reduces LAX

Tue May 18, 2021 11:06 am

Polot wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Once again it should show the importance to build a new hub airport which have enough gate to serve both full service and LCC and can be operated 24 hours

Gates or lack thereof and curfews are not the reasons why F9 is leaving LAX.


When there is sufficient gates, the price will be reduce and so the cost will reduce.
And also carrier can consolidate operation in closer area and it reduce cost.

BTW LAX does not have enough gate before covid-19
And so it builds TBIT satellite terminal and plan to build T0 for WN and T9 for UA

If F9 could have its own terminal they would remain in LAX

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