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Electra
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:22 pm

It will interesting to see how B6 go with UK point of sale (once travel restrictions ease of course). I have no doubt they will be strong with USA point of sale, given their large customer bases in NY and BOS, as well as an overall nationwide brand awareness.
In the UK, there is little brand recognition. B6 will likely be targeting their traditional market segment, price-conscious travellers who still want a more premium experience. The higher yielding UK market will of course stay loyal to the legacies with their mileage, status, lounges, networks etc. While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.
What will be interesting is how the market views connecting vs direct flights as things return to normal. The market (in the UK) that would be B6 territory have traditionally been inclined to book connecting flights with European carriers which are often cheaper (particularly in premium cabins).
Moving forward, if people become reluctant to fly with connections, due to perceived issues with border restrictions etc, B6 may be able to capture that market. Otherwise, their lack of brand recognition in the UK will see them struggle to entice new travellers.
Of course, this could all be a mute point if their plan is to rely of USA point of sale.
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:40 pm

Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!
 
737307
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:40 pm

tphuang wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg5zWa7NoZE
Robin Hayes on Bloomberg
- thinks B6 has path to stay in LHR - using $2k J fares from competitor as argument for B6’s presence. Believes B6 can force the fares low long term

- The day of announcement on UK opening to US travelers caused bookings to LHR triple for B6.
- Don’t have any concerns about headwind for A321LR in winter time due to the low density config.
- Thinks it will be a while before they move beyond London
- Also looking at Paris and Regional UK markets (in summer)
- Delta variant affect bookings in past 2 weeks. Believe it will go away after a 6 to 8 week peak
- Looking to hire 4000 people this year
- Haven’t had difficulty hiring, but business partners like catering companies have struggled to find qualified workers, felt impact from that


What are they talking about??? JetBlue is charging $2K themselves for a round trip JFK-BOS in Mint (as I have shown in the route thread)! Speaking about self-serving advertisement :thumbsdown:
 
tphuang
Posts: 6719
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg5zWa7NoZE
Robin Hayes on Bloomberg
- thinks B6 has path to stay in LHR - using $2k J fares from competitor as argument for B6’s presence. Believes B6 can force the fares low long term

- The day of announcement on UK opening to US travelers caused bookings to LHR triple for B6.
- Don’t have any concerns about headwind for A321LR in winter time due to the low density config.
- Thinks it will be a while before they move beyond London
- Also looking at Paris and Regional UK markets (in summer)
- Delta variant affect bookings in past 2 weeks. Believe it will go away after a 6 to 8 week peak
- Looking to hire 4000 people this year
- Haven’t had difficulty hiring, but business partners like catering companies have struggled to find qualified workers, felt impact from that


What are they talking about??? JetBlue is charging $2K themselves for a round trip JFK-BOS in Mint (as I have shown in the route thread)! Speaking about self-serving advertisement :thumbsdown:


He is saying that the competitors are charging $2k because JetBlue brought them down to that level. That's why JetBlue should be given permanent slots. They lower fares.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:19 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg5zWa7NoZE
Robin Hayes on Bloomberg
- thinks B6 has path to stay in LHR - using $2k J fares from competitor as argument for B6’s presence. Believes B6 can force the fares low long term

- The day of announcement on UK opening to US travelers caused bookings to LHR triple for B6.
- Don’t have any concerns about headwind for A321LR in winter time due to the low density config.
- Thinks it will be a while before they move beyond London
- Also looking at Paris and Regional UK markets (in summer)
- Delta variant affect bookings in past 2 weeks. Believe it will go away after a 6 to 8 week peak
- Looking to hire 4000 people this year
- Haven’t had difficulty hiring, but business partners like catering companies have struggled to find qualified workers, felt impact from that


What are they talking about??? JetBlue is charging $2K themselves for a round trip JFK-BOS in Mint (as I have shown in the route thread)! Speaking about self-serving advertisement :thumbsdown:

Did you not listen to what he said? He said “did you ever think before covid that you’d see our competitors offer J fare roundtrip JFK-LHR sub $2k?” What he’s talking about is disrupting the route such that other airlines will have to offer better prices to match what B6 offers. In other words, he’s saying B6 is a market force good for the traveling public offering lower fares and better service. No different than what B6 did with transcon.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6719
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:31 am

aviatorcraig wrote:
Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!

This is exactly why now is a good time to start service. No lcc competition at all. The legacies are severely weakened with loads of debt. Especially ba and vs. while b6 is enjoying the far more recovered us market. Nyc London is such a small fraction of their overall network that losing money for a year really won’t hurt them that much.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:47 am

tphuang wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg5zWa7NoZE
Robin Hayes on Bloomberg
- thinks B6 has path to stay in LHR - using $2k J fares from competitor as argument for B6’s presence. Believes B6 can force the fares low long term

- The day of announcement on UK opening to US travelers caused bookings to LHR triple for B6.
- Don’t have any concerns about headwind for A321LR in winter time due to the low density config.
- Thinks it will be a while before they move beyond London
- Also looking at Paris and Regional UK markets (in summer)
- Delta variant affect bookings in past 2 weeks. Believe it will go away after a 6 to 8 week peak
- Looking to hire 4000 people this year
- Haven’t had difficulty hiring, but business partners like catering companies have struggled to find qualified workers, felt impact from that


What are they talking about??? JetBlue is charging $2K themselves for a round trip JFK-BOS in Mint (as I have shown in the route thread)! Speaking about self-serving advertisement :thumbsdown:


He is saying that the competitors are charging $2k because JetBlue brought them down to that level. That's why JetBlue should be given permanent slots. They lower fares.


I am very skeptical that regulators will find lower business class fares to be compelling argument for slots. In fact, B6 flying low density, smaller aircraft is probably a strong argument against them as the slots will not be getting anywhere near the utility they could.
 
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stl07
Posts: 2959
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:07 am

tphuang wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!

This is exactly why now is a good time to start service. No lcc competition at all. The legacies are severely weakened with loads of debt. Especially ba and vs. while b6 is enjoying the far more recovered us market. Nyc London is such a small fraction of their overall network that losing money for a year really won’t hurt them that much.

Yup, no Norwegian Air Shuttle either
 
rj777
Posts: 1864
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:22 am

Is this service daily? Tried to look at it for next June...... not seeing it
 
737307
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:31 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg5zWa7NoZE
Robin Hayes on Bloomberg
- thinks B6 has path to stay in LHR - using $2k J fares from competitor as argument for B6’s presence. Believes B6 can force the fares low long term

- The day of announcement on UK opening to US travelers caused bookings to LHR triple for B6.
- Don’t have any concerns about headwind for A321LR in winter time due to the low density config.
- Thinks it will be a while before they move beyond London
- Also looking at Paris and Regional UK markets (in summer)
- Delta variant affect bookings in past 2 weeks. Believe it will go away after a 6 to 8 week peak
- Looking to hire 4000 people this year
- Haven’t had difficulty hiring, but business partners like catering companies have struggled to find qualified workers, felt impact from that


What are they talking about??? JetBlue is charging $2K themselves for a round trip JFK-BOS in Mint (as I have shown in the route thread)! Speaking about self-serving advertisement :thumbsdown:

Did you not listen to what he said? He said “did you ever think before covid that you’d see our competitors offer J fare roundtrip JFK-LHR sub $2k?” What he’s talking about is disrupting the route such that other airlines will have to offer better prices to match what B6 offers. In other words, he’s saying B6 is a market force good for the traveling public offering lower fares and better service. No different than what B6 did with transcon.


I don't think BA and DL will have sleepless nights about "tiny JetBlue" offering $2K rt fares. BA and DL will charge whatever they can get away with. Besides, I presume signing up lucrative business contracts is probably more important to BA and DL than shuttling "pampered tourists" back and forth.
 
trueblew
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
scbriml wrote:
B620 departed 14:27BST on its way back to NY.

It drives me crazy seeing JetBlue flights listed as B6XX haha it’s confusing to my eyes

No kidding. Sure wish they could grab JB and replace B6 with it. Doubt that’ll ever happen though.


That would be nice. Even modifying B6 to 6B would make it easier to quickly discern the flight number. 6th Borough makes more sense than Borough Six anyhow.
 
chrisair
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:46 am

trueblew wrote:
Even modifying B6 to 6B would make it easier to quickly discern the flight number.


Until the flight number is 868…
 
Boeing74741R
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:34 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Also in Massachusetts, 75% of the adult population is fully vaccinated. Thus, I don't see why there cannot be a "corridor" between BOS and LHR. You could even require people to prove MA residency to thwart people who connect from high-case areas.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... cases.html


While there may be no reason to not have LHR-BOS flights, the reality is that at the moment almost all the traffic will be US-originating passengers until such a time Mr Biden lifts the proclamation banning UK-originating passengers. JetBlue will need passengers from both ends to make a success of it, not just the US despite their strong presence in the North East of the US. As somebody else has mentioned, JetBlue's challenge is building up brand recognition at the UK end. Not insurmountable, but still a challenge nonetheless.

aviatorcraig wrote:
Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!


Thomas Cook also didn't operate the same flights from London to parts of the US that JetBlue are/are doing either. That was all from MAN.

From memory, Thomas Cook long-haul from LGW was MCO and various other Caribbean destinations.
 
Electra
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:00 am

aviatorcraig wrote:
Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!


Oops, my bad haha!
Sorry, I meant to say TUI. Was just referring generally to the holiday/charter style airlines.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6577
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:45 am

Electra wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
Electra wrote:
While the lower yielding market doesn’t travel to NYC/BOS in huge numbers and Thomas Cook have that covered.

As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!


Oops, my bad haha!
Sorry, I meant to say TUI. Was just referring generally to the holiday/charter style airlines.



B6 isnt a holiday or charter style airline.

Their product is on par or better to any network carrier and it is launched from two major hubs in New York and Boston.


By US standards, B6 is a smaller airline…but by European standards, B6 is larger than most European airlines in terms of fleet.

On par with BA, much larger than AF.

This isnt VS launching MAN-Caribbean Island.

This is a big deal.
 
Electra
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:40 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Electra wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
As Thomas Cook went bust two years ago that's unlikely!


Oops, my bad haha!
Sorry, I meant to say TUI. Was just referring generally to the holiday/charter style airlines.



B6 isnt a holiday or charter style airline.

Their product is on par or better to any network carrier and it is launched from two major hubs in New York and Boston.


By US standards, B6 is a smaller airline…but by European standards, B6 is larger than most European airlines in terms of fleet.

On par with BA, much larger than AF.

This isnt VS launching MAN-Caribbean Island.

This is a big deal.


I never said that B6 were a holiday/charter style airline. I was mentioning that segment of the market as an example of people who would be be unlikely to fly B6; in the same way that the higher end of the market would also be less likely to as well. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

B6 might be a very large airline by European standards, and have a huge US based customer base; but without brand recognition, they may not attract enough UK based travellers from their traditional market, middle of the market travellers who are cost-conscious but still want a premium product. If people become more cautious when it comes to connecting flights (due to travel restrictions etc), this could a prime time for B6 to capitalise on their nonstop offerings.

I agree that this is a big deal and I do wish them well.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3415
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:14 pm

SESGDL wrote:
tphuang wrote:

NYC-LON 5x next year is a pipe dream and not going to happen. Where is this demand going to come from?

Jeremy


If the US borders open up B6 will have no issues filling 5 321's a day, even up front they should be able to get good yields just based on their own FF pool.

tphuang wrote:
They now have access to all the AA's corporate clients thanks to the NEA. They only have to fill 134 seats per flight. Is it really that hard to believe the largest airline out of JFK is trying to have a competitive schedule on the most or second most important corporate market out of JFK?

The bigger issue to me is the split operation between LHR & LGW.


Are we 100% sure AA is giving up their Corp. contracts to B6 on the transatlantic routes ?

wnflyguy wrote:
JetBlue will be just fine flying to London.
All the same naysayers said the same thing about WN flying to Hawaii. There’s no way they will be profitable and a single aisle on a 4 hr flight yuck.
Ya ya ya we have all heard it before.
If you haven’t already noticed all the typical haters on A.net bash anything that’s not their cup of tea.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy



It was amusing to watch the naysayers go on about WN failing to Hawaii, oh well, I hope they learned a little from it.

wnflyguy wrote:

Like 5 A220 in a 80%mint 20 % Even more leg room configuration to cater to the high dollar Business passengers.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy


I really don't see B6 getting the high dollar sales, unless they manage to secure some Corp. contracts which frankly with 5 flights a week I don't see happening.

Dieuwer wrote:
So who will be on this JetBlue flight then? VFR traffic? Business people (personally, I think not)? Tourists?


The simple answer is yes, there will be a mix.


tphuang wrote:
TPG article on this
https://thepointsguy.com/news/onboard-j ... inaugural/
I can't help but think the Y product might be too good (as in too costly) and they are going to have to cut some stuff back after a while.


Yeah, that is a nice looking Y meal compared to the major, but maybe they will use that going forward to help separate them from the pack.

Pretty much as soon as B6 announced fares AA/BA & DL/VS matched them (who didn't see that coming ?) but much like back in '84, B6 has a better product in the same way that VS had a better product than BA.

Electra wrote:
It will interesting to see how B6 go with UK point of sale (once travel restrictions ease of course). I have no doubt they will be strong with USA point of sale, given their large customer bases in NY and BOS, as well as an overall nationwide brand awareness.


If they were trying to sell a 350-400 seat widebody, I would `00% agree with you, but 134 seats, once/if the markets return to a more normal setting B6 will have no issues filling just from the US.

Electra wrote:
In the UK, there is little brand recognition. B6 will likely be targeting their traditional market segment, price-conscious travellers who still want a more premium experience. The higher yielding UK market will of course stay loyal to the legacies with their mileage, status, lounges, networks etc.


IMHO you are a little off there, B6 does not compete so much on price (sure when they rolled out Mint they made a point of the price difference) but, as you said, travelers who want a more premium experience.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:27 pm

Electra wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Electra wrote:

Oops, my bad haha!
Sorry, I meant to say TUI. Was just referring generally to the holiday/charter style airlines.



B6 isnt a holiday or charter style airline.

Their product is on par or better to any network carrier and it is launched from two major hubs in New York and Boston.


By US standards, B6 is a smaller airline…but by European standards, B6 is larger than most European airlines in terms of fleet.

On par with BA, much larger than AF.

This isnt VS launching MAN-Caribbean Island.

This is a big deal.


I never said that B6 were a holiday/charter style airline. I was mentioning that segment of the market as an example of people who would be be unlikely to fly B6; in the same way that the higher end of the market would also be less likely to as well. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

B6 might be a very large airline by European standards, and have a huge US based customer base; but without brand recognition, they may not attract enough UK based travellers from their traditional market, middle of the market travellers who are cost-conscious but still want a premium product. If people become more cautious when it comes to connecting flights (due to travel restrictions etc), this could a prime time for B6 to capitalise on their nonstop offerings.

I agree that this is a big deal and I do wish them well.



They have their work cut out for them.

The initial hurdle being there just arent that many people flying between the two cities at the moment
 
FlyHPN
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:15 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:31 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Electra wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


B6 isnt a holiday or charter style airline.

Their product is on par or better to any network carrier and it is launched from two major hubs in New York and Boston.


By US standards, B6 is a smaller airline…but by European standards, B6 is larger than most European airlines in terms of fleet.

On par with BA, much larger than AF.

This isnt VS launching MAN-Caribbean Island.

This is a big deal.


I never said that B6 were a holiday/charter style airline. I was mentioning that segment of the market as an example of people who would be be unlikely to fly B6; in the same way that the higher end of the market would also be less likely to as well. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

B6 might be a very large airline by European standards, and have a huge US based customer base; but without brand recognition, they may not attract enough UK based travellers from their traditional market, middle of the market travellers who are cost-conscious but still want a premium product. If people become more cautious when it comes to connecting flights (due to travel restrictions etc), this could a prime time for B6 to capitalise on their nonstop offerings.

I agree that this is a big deal and I do wish them well.



They have their work cut out for them.

The initial hurdle being there just arent that many people flying between the two cities at the moment


Speaking from an American mindset, sometimes lack of brand recognition can be a blessing too. I have some friends who refuse to consider Spirit when flying, but had no problem hopping on a Norwegian flight to PTP when they were on the route from the Northeast US.

That aside, even if they make it up to 5 daily departures, it's still less than 700 seats, probably split between 2 hubs on the US side, and who knows where they will end up on the UK side. I believe you have enough moderately wealthy young people in the workforce on both sides who would be happy to tout they flew business class across the pond if they can get it for $2k on JetBlue vs $5k on BA. Even if it takes time to lurer the UK side, presumably everyone they fly over from the US is going to need to head back at some point, so if they can fill eastbound they'll be able to fill westbound.

I also agree I think they have their work cut out for them, but will ultimately do well.
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:21 pm

Keep in mind that they will not stop at 5x daily. They have 13 LRs and 13 XLRs on delivery. We could easily see them at 6x daily on JFK-LON and another 2 to 3x on BOS-LON before they move on to the next market. That would be competitive in schedule with their competitors. Of course, they'd have trouble capturing certain customers if they fly mostly into LGW. On the other hand, being the only LGW carrier also allows them to potentially attract some British customers who don't want to trek to LHR. I'm surprised they still don't have a partner in LGW. I thought U2 would make a lot of sense.

I also don't think they expect to price J are $2K while BA is charging $5k. I think they are expecting to price J at $2k a month+ out during low season, but price a lot higher during peak travel seasons. There is no reason BA will long term be able to charge double what B6 does for. They won't have that much of a schedule advantage when you consider how tightly bunched the NYC departures will be. B6 have now signed up with most of the major corporate accounts. The mint studio product is probably the best in this market. The Y product looks to be far and away the best. They will also have a fraction of the seats that BA/AA sell.

Even if they operate 9x from JFK/BOS to London, they'd only have about 1000 Y seat and a little over 200 J seat to sell. That's equivalent to 2 BA 747's in term of J/F seating. It would be less than the # of Y seat that DY offered on JFK/BOS-LGW.

I'm sure things will be hard until next summer, but it's only 4 flights a day out of over 1000 flights a day in their entire network. It's not going to hurt their bottom line that much. It is also important to get their foot in the door while legacy competitors are offering reduced scheduling. People should be more concerned about an airline like VS who is short on cash and have no where to fly those widebody aircraft.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:33 pm

I think the brand recognition and having POS in both directions is severely overstated.
Brand recognition comes with time. When DY started TATL flights hardly anyone here had ever heard of them. That didn't seem to hurt them, why? Because no one calls up the airline's ticket office to book a plane ticket anymore. If it's on Kayak, or Orbitz, etc.. people will come.
Being able to sell on both sides of the Atlantic is also mostly moot. They are a U.S. carrier and like most or all U.S. carriers their POS will be predominantly in the U.S. which IIRC is still the largest air market in the World by a very long margin.
 
allegiantflyer
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:08 am

The A321LR certainly puts JetBlue in a unique position for transatlantic travel. I Wonder if they would consider P2P markets in the Northeast - Such as BDL-LON
 
jomur
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:31 am

Once the border opens fully JetBlue will probably find things a lot harder than they expected when all the normal transatlantic flights are running and the subsequent drop in prices.
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:33 am

jomur wrote:
Once the border opens fully JetBlue will probably find things a lot harder than they expected when all the normal transatlantic flights are running and the subsequent drop in prices.


what are you talking about? Have you seen where the prices are?

BA is going to survive on 2K R/T J fares on JFK-LHR?
 
RvA
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:44 am

airbazar wrote:
I think the brand recognition and having POS in both directions is severely overstated.
Brand recognition comes with time. When DY started TATL flights hardly anyone here had ever heard of them. That didn't seem to hurt them, why? Because no one calls up the airline's ticket office to book a plane ticket anymore. If it's on Kayak, or Orbitz, etc.. people will come.
Being able to sell on both sides of the Atlantic is also mostly moot. They are a U.S. carrier and like most or all U.S. carriers their POS will be predominantly in the U.S. which IIRC is still the largest air market in the World by a very long margin.


Routes like JFK-LHR you will want (maybe even need) both POS to sell. B6s competitors do just this.
Brand recognition is definitely important. You mention DY as an example but is DY still flying? No one books by phone, but people DO shop around and if the prices are similar, do you think most will book B6 over BA or Virgin if they are British? Or DL/AA/UA if they are American? The latter, more likely as people at least know who B6 are, and maybe even like them or prefer them. But if you already have some AA miles, or DL etc. and the prices are fine, why would you book B6?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10193
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:27 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
In the whole US 70 percent of the adult population has had at least one dose.

The Mass stat isnt that special.


The English standard is fully vaccinated, not 'at least one dose.'

https://www.reuters.com/business/retail ... 021-07-28/

The NYT vaccination database for 18+ puts Mass at 75.3% for fully vaccinated in contrast to a natiowide stat of 62%. In fact, the top five states for full vaccination are all in New England. New Hampshire is, predictably, the regional slacker.

B6 could use some good luck with entry restrictions brought down but airline route profitability shouldn't drive public health policy.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10193
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:32 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
By US standards, B6 is a smaller airline…but by European standards, B6 is larger than most European airlines in terms of fleet.

On par with BA, much larger than AF.

This isnt VS launching MAN-Caribbean Island.

This is a big deal.


You're ignoring gauge. Nice try.
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:34 pm

RvA wrote:
Routes like JFK-LHR you will want (maybe even need) both POS to sell. B6s competitors do just this.
Brand recognition is definitely important. You mention DY as an example but is DY still flying? No one books by phone, but people DO shop around and if the prices are similar, do you think most will book B6 over BA or Virgin if they are British? Or DL/AA/UA if they are American? The latter, more likely as people at least know who B6 are, and maybe even like them or prefer them. But if you already have some AA miles, or DL etc. and the prices are fine, why would you book B6?


With that argument, why would anyone from anywhere ever book B6 flights? It's not like they have any loyalty over in California or Seattle. Yet, they continue to do great on all the mint routes out of NYC/Boston.

Let's do some simple math. Let's say NYC/LON is a market that's 50/50 in POS. 5 B6 flights offer 1/6 the J capacity offered by the 10+ AA/BA widebody flights and 40% the J capacity offered by DL/VS and 1/2 the J capacity offered by UA. They need to capture under 10% of the premium market for this to be worth it. Even if they don't capture any of London POS, they still only need to capture 20% of NYC point of sale in premium cabin. That's not harder for JetBlue. They do a lot better than that on NYC-LAX.

It seems like you are unaware of their reputation here.
 
mrh777
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:50 pm

Anyone have any insight/information on JetBlue returning to SWF? Are they content to let Frontier take over MCO-SWF?
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:32 am

tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:
Routes like JFK-LHR you will want (maybe even need) both POS to sell. B6s competitors do just this.
Brand recognition is definitely important. You mention DY as an example but is DY still flying? No one books by phone, but people DO shop around and if the prices are similar, do you think most will book B6 over BA or Virgin if they are British? Or DL/AA/UA if they are American? The latter, more likely as people at least know who B6 are, and maybe even like them or prefer them. But if you already have some AA miles, or DL etc. and the prices are fine, why would you book B6?


With that argument, why would anyone from anywhere ever book B6 flights? It's not like they have any loyalty over in California or Seattle. Yet, they continue to do great on all the mint routes out of NYC/Boston.

Let's do some simple math. Let's say NYC/LON is a market that's 50/50 in POS. 5 B6 flights offer 1/6 the J capacity offered by the 10+ AA/BA widebody flights and 40% the J capacity offered by DL/VS and 1/2 the J capacity offered by UA. They need to capture under 10% of the premium market for this to be worth it. Even if they don't capture any of London POS, they still only need to capture 20% of NYC point of sale in premium cabin. That's not harder for JetBlue. They do a lot better than that on NYC-LAX.

It seems like you are unaware of their reputation here.


Not unaware, but not blindly confident it’s enough. Not saying it cannot work, but don’t think it should be assumed to work because it’s B6.
Do they have any interline feed on the London end btw?
 
by738
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:55 am

Lets hope its all a success and the next phase of GLA and MAN goes ahead.
 
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b777900
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:41 am

What about LHR-JFK-LAX JFK-LHR?


tphuang wrote:
BlueBaller wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Now, it looks like they have 27 min turnaround. It looks like they are going to have 3 LRs doing 2 R/T.

I assume that means the 3rd LR will be kept as a hot spare doing domestic transcon flights.

Unless of course, they end up doing another destination like JFK-KEF.


3 dedicated tails in service by Sept.

Tail A doing JFK-LHR and sitting in London for the day, returning a few minutes before Tail B launches.
Tail B doing JFK-LHR the next night, returning a few minutes before tail A launches.
Tail C doing JFK-LGW and running the round robin

I’m sure they’ll rotate Tail C into the LHR mix to increase utilization which will spread around MX checks.


Right, but one of tail A or B will be sitting in JFK all day. Knowing JetBlue, I don't see them just keeping it grounded all day. It seems to me that one could do 1 R/T on JFK-LAX.
 
chonetsao
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:54 am

There is a news item about the JFK-LHR route by JetBlue on Simpleflying. Apparently the CEO did not think the travel ban will be lifted until November as earliest.

So I think we should give up on any hope that JetBlue will expand its TA service until next summer. It would be a miracle if the planned routes kept its frequency during October2021 -February 2022 period.

However, that being said, should the travel ban get lifted earlier than November, there is a chance new JetBlue service gets introduced.
 
jomur
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:59 am

rj777 wrote:
Is this service daily? Tried to look at it for next June...... not seeing it


Do they even have any slots for next year?
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:52 am

RvA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:
Routes like JFK-LHR you will want (maybe even need) both POS to sell. B6s competitors do just this.
Brand recognition is definitely important. You mention DY as an example but is DY still flying? No one books by phone, but people DO shop around and if the prices are similar, do you think most will book B6 over BA or Virgin if they are British? Or DL/AA/UA if they are American? The latter, more likely as people at least know who B6 are, and maybe even like them or prefer them. But if you already have some AA miles, or DL etc. and the prices are fine, why would you book B6?


With that argument, why would anyone from anywhere ever book B6 flights? It's not like they have any loyalty over in California or Seattle. Yet, they continue to do great on all the mint routes out of NYC/Boston.

Let's do some simple math. Let's say NYC/LON is a market that's 50/50 in POS. 5 B6 flights offer 1/6 the J capacity offered by the 10+ AA/BA widebody flights and 40% the J capacity offered by DL/VS and 1/2 the J capacity offered by UA. They need to capture under 10% of the premium market for this to be worth it. Even if they don't capture any of London POS, they still only need to capture 20% of NYC point of sale in premium cabin. That's not harder for JetBlue. They do a lot better than that on NYC-LAX.

It seems like you are unaware of their reputation here.


Not unaware, but not blindly confident it’s enough. Not saying it cannot work, but don’t think it should be assumed to work because it’s B6.
Do they have any interline feed on the London end btw?


Then you should know that they are the largest carrier out of JFK (37% from latest numbers) and owns the largest point of sale out of JFK of any carrier. They are not a ULCC like U2 or DY. They have the best hard product in the market. They have a huge loyal following here in NYC. A lot of people pay extra to fly them. They've built most of their network without much reputation on the end other. VS with their tiny fleet and network out of LHR is the one that's in trouble.

I keep reading that people doubt this will work. What does that mean? Airlines fly routes for strategic reasons all the time. B6 flies to ATL despite losing boatload of money on BOS-ATL. London is easily one of the top 3 business markets out of NYC. It's completely silly for an airline that is investing in a $3.9 billion new terminal at JFK and buying 26 LR/XLR aircraft to not fly a competitive schedule to such an important market. If it ends up getting lower margin than rest of their network, it's something they just have live with. Even at losses, having 5 or 6 A321 R/T a day on NYC-LON will have minimal impact on their overall performance.

Even DY, with minimal connection and point of sale on both end, found JFK-LGW to be one of their top performing markets by 2019. The competitive landscape has gotten a lot easier on NYC-LON in the past year.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:53 am

chonetsao wrote:
There is a news item about the JFK-LHR route by JetBlue on Simpleflying. Apparently the CEO did not think the travel ban will be lifted until November as earliest.

So I think we should give up on any hope that JetBlue will expand its TA service until next summer. It would be a miracle if the planned routes kept its frequency during October2021 -February 2022 period.

However, that being said, should the travel ban get lifted earlier than November, there is a chance new JetBlue service gets introduced.


They don't really have the aircraft to fly more than twice a day right now. By next summer, they can probably do 5x daily at most.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:
tphuang wrote:

With that argument, why would anyone from anywhere ever book B6 flights? It's not like they have any loyalty over in California or Seattle. Yet, they continue to do great on all the mint routes out of NYC/Boston.

Let's do some simple math. Let's say NYC/LON is a market that's 50/50 in POS. 5 B6 flights offer 1/6 the J capacity offered by the 10+ AA/BA widebody flights and 40% the J capacity offered by DL/VS and 1/2 the J capacity offered by UA. They need to capture under 10% of the premium market for this to be worth it. Even if they don't capture any of London POS, they still only need to capture 20% of NYC point of sale in premium cabin. That's not harder for JetBlue. They do a lot better than that on NYC-LAX.

It seems like you are unaware of their reputation here.


Not unaware, but not blindly confident it’s enough. Not saying it cannot work, but don’t think it should be assumed to work because it’s B6.
Do they have any interline feed on the London end btw?


Then you should know that they are the largest carrier out of JFK (37% from latest numbers) and owns the largest point of sale out of JFK of any carrier. They are not a ULCC like U2 or DY. They have the best hard product in the market. They have a huge loyal following here in NYC. A lot of people pay extra to fly them. They've built most of their network without much reputation on the end other. VS with their tiny fleet and network out of LHR is the one that's in trouble.

I keep reading that people doubt this will work. What does that mean? Airlines fly routes for strategic reasons all the time. B6 flies to ATL despite losing boatload of money on BOS-ATL. London is easily one of the top 3 business markets out of NYC. It's completely silly for an airline that is investing in a $3.9 billion new terminal at JFK and buying 26 LR/XLR aircraft to not fly a competitive schedule to such an important market. If it ends up getting lower margin than rest of their network, it's something they just have live with. Even at losses, having 5 or 6 A321 R/T a day on NYC-LON will have minimal impact on their overall performance.

Even DY, with minimal connection and point of sale on both end, found JFK-LGW to be one of their top performing markets by 2019. The competitive landscape has gotten a lot easier on NYC-LON in the past year.


VS are in trouble for other reasons, they partner with DL and are well-known in the UK, they shouldn't have problems getting enough people to fly with them.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:08 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:

Not unaware, but not blindly confident it’s enough. Not saying it cannot work, but don’t think it should be assumed to work because it’s B6.
Do they have any interline feed on the London end btw?


Then you should know that they are the largest carrier out of JFK (37% from latest numbers) and owns the largest point of sale out of JFK of any carrier. They are not a ULCC like U2 or DY. They have the best hard product in the market. They have a huge loyal following here in NYC. A lot of people pay extra to fly them. They've built most of their network without much reputation on the end other. VS with their tiny fleet and network out of LHR is the one that's in trouble.

I keep reading that people doubt this will work. What does that mean? Airlines fly routes for strategic reasons all the time. B6 flies to ATL despite losing boatload of money on BOS-ATL. London is easily one of the top 3 business markets out of NYC. It's completely silly for an airline that is investing in a $3.9 billion new terminal at JFK and buying 26 LR/XLR aircraft to not fly a competitive schedule to such an important market. If it ends up getting lower margin than rest of their network, it's something they just have live with. Even at losses, having 5 or 6 A321 R/T a day on NYC-LON will have minimal impact on their overall performance.

Even DY, with minimal connection and point of sale on both end, found JFK-LGW to be one of their top performing markets by 2019. The competitive landscape has gotten a lot easier on NYC-LON in the past year.


VS are in trouble for other reasons, they partner with DL and are well-known in the UK, they shouldn't have problems getting enough people to fly with them.


I didn't say B6 is the main reason they are in trouble. They are now pricing R/T J fares at sub $2000 on many days for all their flights on JFK-LHR. That can't be good for their survival.

Why are they pricing so low (even on days B6 is not flying) if they have no problem getting people to fly with them? DL/AA/BA for the most part are at over $4k R/T.
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Then you should know that they are the largest carrier out of JFK (37% from latest numbers) and owns the largest point of sale out of JFK of any carrier. They are not a ULCC like U2 or DY. They have the best hard product in the market. They have a huge loyal following here in NYC. A lot of people pay extra to fly them. They've built most of their network without much reputation on the end other. VS with their tiny fleet and network out of LHR is the one that's in trouble.

I keep reading that people doubt this will work. What does that mean? Airlines fly routes for strategic reasons all the time. B6 flies to ATL despite losing boatload of money on BOS-ATL. London is easily one of the top 3 business markets out of NYC. It's completely silly for an airline that is investing in a $3.9 billion new terminal at JFK and buying 26 LR/XLR aircraft to not fly a competitive schedule to such an important market. If it ends up getting lower margin than rest of their network, it's something they just have live with. Even at losses, having 5 or 6 A321 R/T a day on NYC-LON will have minimal impact on their overall performance.

Even DY, with minimal connection and point of sale on both end, found JFK-LGW to be one of their top performing markets by 2019. The competitive landscape has gotten a lot easier on NYC-LON in the past year.


VS are in trouble for other reasons, they partner with DL and are well-known in the UK, they shouldn't have problems getting enough people to fly with them.


I didn't say B6 is the main reason they are in trouble. They are now pricing R/T J fares at sub $2000 on many days for all their flights on JFK-LHR. That can't be good for their survival.

Why are they pricing so low (even on days B6 is not flying) if they have no problem getting people to fly with them? DL/AA/BA for the most part are at over $4k R/T.


It’s good that B6 have a high market share out of JFK. It will help them. If it will prove to be enough we will see. Everything we say is speculation.
I am not sure they have the best product btw. Isn’t BA flying their new business product as well now? (To JFK)
Also, B6 has a good product in the domestic market I remember from flying. Pitch etc was all quite fine. But on a transatlantic flight is their product, across all cabins, better or similar?
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:30 pm

here are the most recent reports on the Y product.
https://samchui.com/2021/08/13/trip-rep ... RkWDm4pDFM

https://thepointsguy.com/news/onboard-j ... inaugural/
The Y product seems to be too good to stay around at that level for a long time.

The j product seems pretty good, but they need to get the lounge situation worked out. I think that will happen this year.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/mint-experience-lhr-jfk/
 
by738
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:14 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
VS are in trouble for other reasons

What is this ‘trouble’ you talk of? Massive over expansion?
 
skipness1E
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:15 pm

b777900 wrote:
What about LHR-JFK-LAX JFK-LHR?


tphuang wrote:
BlueBaller wrote:

3 dedicated tails in service by Sept.

Tail A doing JFK-LHR and sitting in London for the day, returning a few minutes before Tail B launches.
Tail B doing JFK-LHR the next night, returning a few minutes before tail A launches.
Tail C doing JFK-LGW and running the round robin

I’m sure they’ll rotate Tail C into the LHR mix to increase utilization which will spread around MX checks.


Right, but one of tail A or B will be sitting in JFK all day. Knowing JetBlue, I don't see them just keeping it grounded all day. It seems to me that one could do 1 R/T on JFK-LAX.

Wouldn't an A321N fall out of the sky before getting there? Daily? They'd run out of aeroplanes!

As for MAN and GLA, the US-Scotland market to EDI is waaay stronger.
 
tphuang
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:32 pm

I think it will be a while before B6 returns to SWF.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/14 ... 3149562885

RH interview with Sunday times.

JetBlue is looking to expand to 5x daily between JFK/BOS-London by summer of 2022. That would mean the 3 A321LRs are probably all getting delivered in Q1 or early Q2 of 2022. Summer seasonal flights on JFK-GLA/MAN coming after that.

It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023 for more A321LRs to do those routes. That's probably quite likely. However, 24J A321LRs seem to be too premium for those markets. More importantly, how do you utilize those aircraft in the other 6 months of the year?

Could they possibly have a A321LD ETOPS sub fleet that normally operate to Hawaii but could be used on seasonal TATL stuff from mid May to mid October? I'd imagine a 160 pax A321NEO could consistently do MAN-JFK in summer time.
 
by738
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023

2023 at the earliest *if one or either were to be launched…
 
sfojvjets
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think it will be a while before B6 returns to SWF.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/14 ... 3149562885

RH interview with Sunday times.

JetBlue is looking to expand to 5x daily between JFK/BOS-London by summer of 2022. That would mean the 3 A321LRs are probably all getting delivered in Q1 or early Q2 of 2022. Summer seasonal flights on JFK-GLA/MAN coming after that.

It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023 for more A321LRs to do those routes. That's probably quite likely. However, 24J A321LRs seem to be too premium for those markets. More importantly, how do you utilize those aircraft in the other 6 months of the year?

Could they possibly have a A321LD ETOPS sub fleet that normally operate to Hawaii but could be used on seasonal TATL stuff from mid May to mid October? I'd imagine a 160 pax A321NEO could consistently do MAN-JFK in summer time.

Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:59 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think it will be a while before B6 returns to SWF.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/14 ... 3149562885

RH interview with Sunday times.

JetBlue is looking to expand to 5x daily between JFK/BOS-London by summer of 2022. That would mean the 3 A321LRs are probably all getting delivered in Q1 or early Q2 of 2022. Summer seasonal flights on JFK-GLA/MAN coming after that.

It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023 for more A321LRs to do those routes. That's probably quite likely. However, 24J A321LRs seem to be too premium for those markets. More importantly, how do you utilize those aircraft in the other 6 months of the year?

Could they possibly have a A321LD ETOPS sub fleet that normally operate to Hawaii but could be used on seasonal TATL stuff from mid May to mid October? I'd imagine a 160 pax A321NEO could consistently do MAN-JFK in summer time.

Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.


Not sure MAN/GLA will happen before HNL. Lots can happen between now and 2023.
 
tphuang
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:59 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think it will be a while before B6 returns to SWF.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/14 ... 3149562885

RH interview with Sunday times.

JetBlue is looking to expand to 5x daily between JFK/BOS-London by summer of 2022. That would mean the 3 A321LRs are probably all getting delivered in Q1 or early Q2 of 2022. Summer seasonal flights on JFK-GLA/MAN coming after that.

It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023 for more A321LRs to do those routes. That's probably quite likely. However, 24J A321LRs seem to be too premium for those markets. More importantly, how do you utilize those aircraft in the other 6 months of the year?

Could they possibly have a A321LD ETOPS sub fleet that normally operate to Hawaii but could be used on seasonal TATL stuff from mid May to mid October? I'd imagine a 160 pax A321NEO could consistently do MAN-JFK in summer time.

Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.


Keep in mind who the audience is. JetBlue is launching its inaugural service to London and are trying to get as much positive press on British side as possible. They are trying to keep themselves in the news to capture more UK point of sale. They are also trying to get LHR slots for free or very cheaply. They have to keep discussing about increased service, lower fares and servicing non-London airports to get these message across. In reality, the second TATL market for JetBlue to try is probably going to be Paris.

None of this takes things away from West Coast. I've always been under the impression that HI is a 2023 type of launch. Unless they make additional A321 orders, it's hard to see things moving faster than that. The recent pilot bid shows a pretty large growth in LAX base over the next 18 months. All positive signs for west coast expansion and HI service. Again, there is not much jetBlue can do at LAX if LAWA doesn't come through with additional gates.
 
sfojvjets
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:51 am

tphuang wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.


Keep in mind who the audience is. JetBlue is launching its inaugural service to London and are trying to get as much positive press on British side as possible. They are trying to keep themselves in the news to capture more UK point of sale. They are also trying to get LHR slots for free or very cheaply. They have to keep discussing about increased service, lower fares and servicing non-London airports to get these message across. In reality, the second TATL market for JetBlue to try is probably going to be Paris.

None of this takes things away from West Coast. I've always been under the impression that HI is a 2023 type of launch. Unless they make additional A321 orders, it's hard to see things moving faster than that. The recent pilot bid shows a pretty large growth in LAX base over the next 18 months. All positive signs for west coast expansion and HI service. Again, there is not much jetBlue can do at LAX if LAWA doesn't come through with additional gates.

This leads me to a different point: I wonder if they'd be in the market for secondhand a321s or even 320s. That seems like an ideal way to help growth stateside while still pursuing their European ambitions. Especially considering that current Airbus backlogs are so large, for neos and 220s specifically, secondhand would seem the way to go IMO so they could get extra lift in a timely manner. B6 is going to have to go up against LCCs who have massive orderbooks, as well as on the other end, UA Next, both in the near future. This seems to be a logical way for them to face the added competition.

Is the secondhand Airbus narrowbody market large? I'm sure B6 could get extra lift if they wanted AS's 30-something 320s but 321s would be ideal if they could find them.
 
hbernal1
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:57 am

sfojvjets wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think it will be a while before B6 returns to SWF.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/14 ... 3149562885

RH interview with Sunday times.

JetBlue is looking to expand to 5x daily between JFK/BOS-London by summer of 2022. That would mean the 3 A321LRs are probably all getting delivered in Q1 or early Q2 of 2022. Summer seasonal flights on JFK-GLA/MAN coming after that.

It's not clear to me how they plan to lunch GLA/MAN. They could wait until 2023 for more A321LRs to do those routes. That's probably quite likely. However, 24J A321LRs seem to be too premium for those markets. More importantly, how do you utilize those aircraft in the other 6 months of the year?

Could they possibly have a A321LD ETOPS sub fleet that normally operate to Hawaii but could be used on seasonal TATL stuff from mid May to mid October? I'd imagine a 160 pax A321NEO could consistently do MAN-JFK in summer time.

Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.

I'm with you in that B6 should also be moving heaven and earth to have a more aggressive West Coast strategy. If there's a way to start flying LAX-HNL/OGG before 2023, then I don't think B6 should flinch. That said, my understanding is that the latest pilot bid points to huge growth at LAX, so we should be seeing some more routes coming next year.

However, I also believe JFK-LHR will become as crucial to B6's network as JFK-LAX is today. I'm doubtful that JetBlue would be flying to Manchester or Glasgow (?) in the next couple of years with so few A321LRs floating around, and which as others have pointed out, is too premium for those markets anyway. I agree with tphuang that I'm almost certain that B6 are probably more interested in getting slots at CDG for their next European venture.
Last edited by hbernal1 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:59 am

sfojvjets wrote:
tphuang wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Jeez.... low density, high-J LRs flying seasonally to vfr-dominated MAN/GLA?? How odd. Really shocking to me that an airline like B6 is going for Glasgow before Honolulu/Kahului. I know I've ragged on them many times in the past for not showing LAWA, or pax, that they're truly intent on building up a sizeable, non-transcon operation in the west, but this is really the worst I've seen yet...

Just truly hard to stomach. Glasgow before HNL, I would laugh but it's not even funny. Truly hope they get shoved into the MSC at LAX, let LAWA show them that they can't expect to have everything at once.


Keep in mind who the audience is. JetBlue is launching its inaugural service to London and are trying to get as much positive press on British side as possible. They are trying to keep themselves in the news to capture more UK point of sale. They are also trying to get LHR slots for free or very cheaply. They have to keep discussing about increased service, lower fares and servicing non-London airports to get these message across. In reality, the second TATL market for JetBlue to try is probably going to be Paris.

None of this takes things away from West Coast. I've always been under the impression that HI is a 2023 type of launch. Unless they make additional A321 orders, it's hard to see things moving faster than that. The recent pilot bid shows a pretty large growth in LAX base over the next 18 months. All positive signs for west coast expansion and HI service. Again, there is not much jetBlue can do at LAX if LAWA doesn't come through with additional gates.

This leads me to a different point: I wonder if they'd be in the market for secondhand a321s or even 320s. That seems like an ideal way to help growth stateside while still pursuing their European ambitions. Especially considering that current Airbus backlogs are so large, for neos and 220s specifically, secondhand would seem the way to go IMO so they could get extra lift in a timely manner. B6 is going to have to go up against LCCs who have massive orderbooks, as well as on the other end, UA Next, both in the near future. This seems to be a logical way for them to face the added competition.

Is the secondhand Airbus narrowbody market large? I'm sure B6 could get extra lift if they wanted AS's 30-something 320s but 321s would be ideal if they could find them.

I’m with you they need to find aircraft from somewhere to grow there usa operation as other airlines are ordering legit hundred of aircraft and B6 will just have the problem of growing where they want for years...like a lot of opportunities that might be open for them now probably won’t be there if they don’t have aircraft for at least two to three year minimum

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