Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MSNflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:31 pm

Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 2:51 pm

An FAA document detailing the agency's findings dated from January and obtained exclusively by CNN describes "consistent evidence showing potential lack of airmanship," unsafe and poor piloting by multiple Envoy Air flight crews over the past two years.


Yikes.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/19/business ... index.html
 
KCaviator
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 4:31 pm

Envoy has gone off multiple runways in the last couple years, so I’m not the least bit surprised.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 5:14 pm

KCaviator wrote:
Envoy has gone off multiple runways in the last couple years, so I’m not the least bit surprised.


Because Envoy is the only carrier that has gone off a contaminated runway or taxiway in recent history? I think Delta and Southwest would like a word.
There is no use in pointing fingers or being a scold because human factors are a permanent issue at every level of aviation. We can only strive to be better aviators and trap errors before they cause an incident or accident.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15180
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 5:26 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Envoy has gone off multiple runways in the last couple years, so I’m not the least bit surprised.


Because Envoy is the only carrier that has gone off a contaminated runway or taxiway in recent history? I think Delta and Southwest would like a word.
There is no use in pointing fingers or being a scold because human factors are a permanent issue at every level of aviation. We can only strive to be better aviators and trap errors before they cause an incident or accident.


There's nothing mutually exclusive about saying on one hand "MQ can do better" and saying on the other "everyone else can do better too."
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
rampantfox
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 5:28 pm

The other week we were pushing out a flight. Ground gave us clearance to push out of the gate and told Envoy to hold for us. The Envoy pilots failed to stop forcing us to emergency stop our push in order to prevent a collision. I’ve never heard ATC more pissed in my life. She gave them the tower number to call for possible pilot deviation.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 6:23 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Envoy has gone off multiple runways in the last couple years, so I’m not the least bit surprised.


Because Envoy is the only carrier that has gone off a contaminated runway or taxiway in recent history? I think Delta and Southwest would like a word.
There is no use in pointing fingers or being a scold because human factors are a permanent issue at every level of aviation. We can only strive to be better aviators and trap errors before they cause an incident or accident.


There's nothing mutually exclusive about saying on one hand "MQ can do better" and saying on the other "everyone else can do better too."


That is very true. I just hate to see one carrier get singled out in the media.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 8:13 pm

This story is pretty basic in its reporting of facts in the style of summary, direct quote, summary, direct quote. There's no real misplaced analysis or overreach on the part of the reporter. These are the simplest stories to report and the hardest to criticize as shrill or overblown. Realizing there's quite a few actual airline professionals on this site (and not just fanboys), I would think many would take this report as a cautionary tale and not some kind of hack job by the "Media."
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 8:31 pm

Haha time to raise ATP minimums to 2500 hours!

I’m kidding...
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
MLIAA
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 10:46 pm

The only reason Envoy is being singled out is because this internal letter was leaked to the media. As others have said, MQ hasn’t been the only airline to go off-roading recently, nor is it the only regional to get a warning from the FAA. I can think of 2 others that received restrictions from the FAA because of their incidents.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3513
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 10:52 pm

MLIAA wrote:
The only reason Envoy is being singled out is because this internal letter was leaked to the media. As others have said, MQ hasn’t been the only airline to go off-roading recently, nor is it the only regional to get a warning from the FAA. I can think of 2 others that received restrictions from the FAA because of their incidents.


Leaked? It's been posted online for months, if you know where to look...
From my cold, dead hands
 
n797mx
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:40 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Wed May 19, 2021 11:16 pm

IMO, this is really a non-issue. It seems like the SMS process is working more than anything. I'll gladly fly Envoy over some other regionals.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
bigb
Posts: 1352
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 1:23 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The only reason Envoy is being singled out is because this internal letter was leaked to the media. As others have said, MQ hasn’t been the only airline to go off-roading recently, nor is it the only regional to get a warning from the FAA. I can think of 2 others that received restrictions from the FAA because of their incidents.


Leaked? It's been posted online for months, if you know where to look...


Still been leaked.....

Besides these issues are on-going at every carrier. It’s just at a boiling point with Envoy with the hostile environment between pilots and management with policies that have been implemented like forced upgrades, lack of decent QOL and pay. Constant push for on-time stats with 25 min turns..... This is a common problem at the regional levels.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 1:47 am

bigb wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The only reason Envoy is being singled out is because this internal letter was leaked to the media. As others have said, MQ hasn’t been the only airline to go off-roading recently, nor is it the only regional to get a warning from the FAA. I can think of 2 others that received restrictions from the FAA because of their incidents.


Leaked? It's been posted online for months, if you know where to look...


Still been leaked.....

Besides these issues are on-going at every carrier. It’s just at a boiling point with Envoy with the hostile environment between pilots and management with policies that have been implemented like forced upgrades, lack of decent QOL and pay. Constant push for on-time stats with 25 min turns..... This is a common problem at the regional levels.

The Rj carriers shit gets leaked constantly an Envoy isn't exactly a paragon of labor relations
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1419
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 1:50 am

orlandocfi wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:

Because Envoy is the only carrier that has gone off a contaminated runway or taxiway in recent history? I think Delta and Southwest would like a word.
There is no use in pointing fingers or being a scold because human factors are a permanent issue at every level of aviation. We can only strive to be better aviators and trap errors before they cause an incident or accident.


There's nothing mutually exclusive about saying on one hand "MQ can do better" and saying on the other "everyone else can do better too."


That is very true. I just hate to see one carrier get singled out in the media.

The eventual result of push button piloting....

The lawyer-approved company manual says use the available equipment, and use it all of the time. Which works, right up until it doesn’t.

Piloting, especially landings, is a perishable skill, and will fade over time if not refreshed often. A simulator will only do so much, it can’t replicate the butt puckering feeling and actual fear of death/ termination if you screw it up. Real world landings, in real conditions is the only real way to keep skills fresh.

Could be Something else at work here, as well.
The pre-COVID hire-anyone-who-can-fog-a-mirror practices of the regionals. No pilots means no payday in the fee-per-departure environment. The airline that could staff the most flights, with the least issues wins the contracts.

Add to that the post COVID lack of opportunities to keep your skills fresh.
 
KFTG
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 1:50 am

On the bright side, they all have 1500+ hours.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3500
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 2:16 am

The FAA fined ORD $1.6 million for that little off-roading incident. The pilots were returned to work without any action.

I’m going to bite my tongue on the culture of Envoy but I will say this. When for force first officers to be captains against their will, and then the teach them to be captains by taking them on a tour of the SOC and talk about not harassing flight attendants, you are setting yourself up for failure. In order to be a good captain you have to be molded into one. This starts with rigorous training. AQP allows way to many mistakes to fall through the cracks. Envoy will fix this. Perhaps by firing a VP or director to start.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1619
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 2:30 am

I call bull manure on this one. "Potential" lack of airmanship? It either is or it isn't safe. If there is a crash soon, how will the FAA look?
 
User avatar
FlyingJhawk
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 2:37 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

There's nothing mutually exclusive about saying on one hand "MQ can do better" and saying on the other "everyone else can do better too."


That is very true. I just hate to see one carrier get singled out in the media.

The eventual result of push button piloting....

The lawyer-approved company manual says use the available equipment, and use it all of the time. Which works, right up until it doesn’t.

Piloting, especially landings, is a perishable skill, and will fade over time if not refreshed often. A simulator will only do so much, it can’t replicate the butt puckering feeling and actual fear of death/ termination if you screw it up. Real world landings, in real conditions is the only real way to keep skills fresh.

Could be Something else at work here, as well.
The pre-COVID hire-anyone-who-can-fog-a-mirror practices of the regionals. No pilots means no payday in the fee-per-departure environment. The airline that could staff the most flights, with the least issues wins the contracts.

Add to that the post COVID lack of opportunities to keep your skills fresh.


Sitting in F it's clearly noticible when the Auto Pilot is disconnected and there have been more than a few times that I hear that very late in the landing.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 2:42 am

SteelChair wrote:
I call bull manure on this one. "Potential" lack of airmanship? It either is or it isn't safe. If there is a crash soon, how will the FAA look?


The FAA doesn't care about how it "looks" per se. It seems to be caring about a slippage in standards over time. In this case, the FAA seems to be doing its job.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 3:26 am

airtran737 wrote:
The FAA fined ORD $1.6 million for that little off-roading incident. The pilots were returned to work without any action.

I’m going to bite my tongue on the culture of Envoy but I will say this. When for force first officers to be captains against their will, and then the teach them to be captains by taking them on a tour of the SOC and talk about not harassing flight attendants, you are setting yourself up for failure. In order to be a good captain you have to be molded into one. This starts with rigorous training. AQP allows way to many mistakes to fall through the cracks. Envoy will fix this. Perhaps by firing a VP or director to start.


Save flow, I don't think any of the WOs would be able to staff their operations. PSA was losing people at the height of COVID, which tells you something.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 6:17 am

rampantfox wrote:
The other week we were pushing out a flight. Ground gave us clearance to push out of the gate and told Envoy to hold for us. The Envoy pilots failed to stop forcing us to emergency stop our push in order to prevent a collision. I’ve never heard ATC more pissed in my life. She gave them the tower number to call for possible pilot deviation.


Did you tell the ground crew to “Emergency Stop!!!!!” or did the ground crew casually tell you “Looks like that plane is not going to give way, we’re going to stop the push until they are clear.” Alright.
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 6:33 am

I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 10:55 am

kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.

Has any pilot ever admitted to the passengers that they were about to land on the wrong runway.
Captain Kevin
 
bigb
Posts: 1352
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 11:46 am

kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.


No offense, but there some just some things that passengers do not need to know......
 
KCaviator
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 12:39 pm

bigb wrote:
kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.


No offense, but there some just some things that passengers do not need to know......


Yeah, what are they going to say? “Uh, hey folks, we uh, we fu**** up and almost landed on the wrong runway, so uh, so we’re gonna try this one again.”

Obviously some things are better left unsaid.
 
777luver
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 4:29 pm

As others have stated, these issues cannot be singled out to occur at only one carrier, please. Gimme a break. This is why SMS and other procedures are in place.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 5:10 pm

I don't know......but I've noticed some odd things recently.....and, as a recently retired airline employee, I've flown a lot in the last few months. Not too long ago, I was on a flight landing in a small, mid-atlantic airport on a CRJ900, and had a white knuckle moment. Touchdown was normal, heard the thrust reversers but.......we weren't stopping much. On the window seat, I noticed the runway distance markers dwindling quickly......7 .. 6 .. 5.. 4.. 3... 2.. then, 1... I thought, sh$t, aren't these ninnies going to hit the brakes???! Which they finally did, hard. Yes, that little CR9 ate up the whole runway.......hard left turn off the active, right over the piano keys, to a taxiway. Either something was wrong with that plane, or the pilots miscalculated and nearly went off the end of the runway.
..everything works out in the end.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 5:14 pm

bigb wrote:
kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.


No offense, but there some just some things that passengers do not need to know......


Exactly. I was flying on trans states from DEN-OKC, descending through around 12,000 when we made an abrupt power up, bank and climb. A few minutes later the pilot came on and said “we had to avoid an aircraft that was flying straight towards us that the tower was not talking to”. A moment everybody had already forgotten about turned the cabin white-faced for the rest of the flight. Somethings just don’t need to be relayed to the back of the plane.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7815
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 7:02 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:

That is very true. I just hate to see one carrier get singled out in the media.

The eventual result of push button piloting....

The lawyer-approved company manual says use the available equipment, and use it all of the time. Which works, right up until it doesn’t.

Piloting, especially landings, is a perishable skill, and will fade over time if not refreshed often. A simulator will only do so much, it can’t replicate the butt puckering feeling and actual fear of death/ termination if you screw it up. Real world landings, in real conditions is the only real way to keep skills fresh.

Could be Something else at work here, as well.
The pre-COVID hire-anyone-who-can-fog-a-mirror practices of the regionals. No pilots means no payday in the fee-per-departure environment. The airline that could staff the most flights, with the least issues wins the contracts.

Add to that the post COVID lack of opportunities to keep your skills fresh.


Sitting in F it's clearly noticible when the Auto Pilot is disconnected and there have been more than a few times that I hear that very late in the landing.


Unless it’s an autoland, I sure hope you mean in the approach, not the landing.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7815
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 7:05 pm

airtran737 wrote:
The FAA fined ORD $1.6 million for that little off-roading incident. The pilots were returned to work without any action.

I’m going to bite my tongue on the culture of Envoy but I will say this. When for force first officers to be captains against their will, and then the teach them to be captains by taking them on a tour of the SOC and talk about not harassing flight attendants, you are setting yourself up for failure. In order to be a good captain you have to be molded into one. This starts with rigorous training. AQP allows way to many mistakes to fall through the cracks. Envoy will fix this. Perhaps by firing a VP or director to start.


A lot of that “molding” happens out on the line by the captains. Do they explain why they made a decision? Explain what they wanted extra fuel, questioned a F/A or wanted the ILS instead of the visual. You can’t learn it all in AQP sims, it takes real world experience and captains “instructing”.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1427
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 9:13 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
bigb wrote:
kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.


No offense, but there some just some things that passengers do not need to know......


Exactly. I was flying on trans states from DEN-OKC, descending through around 12,000 when we made an abrupt power up, bank and climb. A few minutes later the pilot came on and said “we had to avoid an aircraft that was flying straight towards us that the tower was not talking to”. A moment everybody had already forgotten about turned the cabin white-faced for the rest of the flight. Somethings just don’t need to be relayed to the back of the plane.


I don't know, maybe it was a sequel to the bored pilots skit that Monty Python did. Seriously though, wow! That's an attention getter.

Anyways, it's not like the passengers could do anything with this kind of information. "Excuse me, flight attendant? I'm a little uncomfortable about the pilot saying he almost landed on the wrong runway. Is there another plane I can transfer to for the actual landing?"
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 9:23 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
bigb wrote:

No offense, but there some just some things that passengers do not need to know......


Exactly. I was flying on trans states from DEN-OKC, descending through around 12,000 when we made an abrupt power up, bank and climb. A few minutes later the pilot came on and said “we had to avoid an aircraft that was flying straight towards us that the tower was not talking to”. A moment everybody had already forgotten about turned the cabin white-faced for the rest of the flight. Somethings just don’t need to be relayed to the back of the plane.


I don't know, maybe it was a sequel to the bored pilots skit that Monty Python did. Seriously though, wow! That's an attention getter.

Anyways, it's not like the passengers could do anything with this kind of information. "Excuse me, flight attendant? I'm a little uncomfortable about the pilot saying he almost landed on the wrong runway. Is there another plane I can transfer to for the actual landing?"


The fact that nothing can be done about the situation is the precise reason nothing should be said, or a white lie presented.

It’s the reason we don’t send out a text or email saying your bag missed the flight until AFTER you land. We aren’t turning the airplane around for it, and we don’t want you to dwell on that issue for 2+ hours with no means to talk to customer service.

“There was traffic on the runway ahead of us and we had to do a go around” is a perfectly acceptable lie instead of “sorry folks, we lined up for the wrong runway. We’ll get it right next time”.

Circling the sky in a pressurized metal tube requires cooperation and calmness from all onboard. Some info doesn’t need to make it into the cabin.
 
deebee278
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Thu May 20, 2021 9:30 pm

[quote=A lot of that “molding” happens out on the line by the captains. Do they explain why they made a decision? Explain what they wanted extra fuel, questioned a F/A or wanted the ILS instead of the visual. You can’t learn it all in AQP sims, it takes real world experience and captains “instructing”.[/quote]

Captains can lead by example almost as well as instructing, unless you are a Check Airman, where instruction is part of the job description. Hours of flight time are just a number. Experience, stick and rudder-wise comes from flying with a good Captain who lets you handle some of those tough landings. Just as important is sitting in the right seat, perhaps for even a couple years and making mental notes to yourself...what is my CA doing that I like...what don't I like. While you're gaining real experience, you are starting to think about what kind of Captain YOU want to be.

At the risk of revealing myself as being an Old Fart, I had the "advantage" (after eight years of working my way up the ladder) of starting at a "major airline" in the Engineer's seat, enhancing the experience I had gained before making Captain.
 
User avatar
FlyingJhawk
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 1:39 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FlyingJhawk wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
The eventual result of push button piloting....

The lawyer-approved company manual says use the available equipment, and use it all of the time. Which works, right up until it doesn’t.

Piloting, especially landings, is a perishable skill, and will fade over time if not refreshed often. A simulator will only do so much, it can’t replicate the butt puckering feeling and actual fear of death/ termination if you screw it up. Real world landings, in real conditions is the only real way to keep skills fresh.

Could be Something else at work here, as well.
The pre-COVID hire-anyone-who-can-fog-a-mirror practices of the regionals. No pilots means no payday in the fee-per-departure environment. The airline that could staff the most flights, with the least issues wins the contracts.

Add to that the post COVID lack of opportunities to keep your skills fresh.


Sitting in F it's clearly noticible when the Auto Pilot is disconnected and there have been more than a few times that I hear that very late in the landing.


When it's about 20 seconds from touchdown I'm thinking the approach part is over. This most recently happened on a DTW-MCI Endeavor flight last week.

Unless it’s an autoland, I sure hope you mean in the approach, not the landing.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7815
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 3:15 am

There’s clearly defined altitudes for using the autopilot depending on the type of approach—precision, non-precision,nfor example. In F, you probably don’t have an idea on what’s in use, the altitude the autopilot was disengaged at and whether it’s in limits.
 
Tokyo777
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:29 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 4:32 am

A couple of years ago, I was sitting at the CHS terminal waiting for a flight. As an American 787 taxied by (during production testing at Boeing), one Envoy pilot said to the other "What the hell airplane is that?! Is that an A380?" The other one seemed to agree that it was an A380. Apparently it isn't only the media that can't tell the difference between an A380 and 787...it could be the person sitting in the little room in the front of the airplane!
 
User avatar
FlyingJhawk
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 6:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s clearly defined altitudes for using the autopilot depending on the type of approach—precision, non-precision,nfor example. In F, you probably don’t have an idea on what’s in use, the altitude the autopilot was disengaged at and whether it’s in limits.


You're right. What conditions would warrant autopilot disconnect with but a few seconds to go? The example I gave was high overcaset with light south westerly winds.
 
rampantfox
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 6:56 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
rampantfox wrote:
The other week we were pushing out a flight. Ground gave us clearance to push out of the gate and told Envoy to hold for us. The Envoy pilots failed to stop forcing us to emergency stop our push in order to prevent a collision. I’ve never heard ATC more pissed in my life. She gave them the tower number to call for possible pilot deviation.


Did you tell the ground crew to “Emergency Stop!!!!!” or did the ground crew casually tell you “Looks like that plane is not going to give way, we’re going to stop the push until they are clear.” Alright.


We told the crew emergency stop. First time I’ve ever had to do it.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 1:06 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s clearly defined altitudes for using the autopilot depending on the type of approach—precision, non-precision,nfor example. In F, you probably don’t have an idea on what’s in use, the altitude the autopilot was disengaged at and whether it’s in limits.


You're right. What conditions would warrant autopilot disconnect with but a few seconds to go? The example I gave was high overcaset with light south westerly winds.


On the 737NG for example, for a CAT 1 ILS the autopilot can stay on to 50' above the ground. Personally, I wouldn't leave it on that low, but there are reasons some might. Leaving the autopilot on while you are configuring for landing lets it get the airplane all trimmed up and stabilized. Then when you punch it off, you don't have to change anything until the flare.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 7:54 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Anyways, it's not like the passengers could do anything with this kind of information. "Excuse me, flight attendant? I'm a little uncomfortable about the pilot saying he almost landed on the wrong runway. Is there another plane I can transfer to for the actual landing?"

So just because the passengers can't do anything with that information, you want to make them panic?
Captain Kevin
 
Adipocere
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 8:48 pm

kordcj wrote:
I wouldn’t say this is special to Envoy. Flying a OO flight from DEN-ELP, the pilots lined up to land on the smaller/shorter 26R runway, and came quite close to doing so before tower told them they weren’t landing on the proper runway. I pulled the recording from LiveATC just to be sure. Pilots also lied over the PA about why we were going around. United never responded to my inquiry about it.


Would I want to know that as a passenger?

I would either have the pilots land and all’s good, or, let it be all over in a microsecond before my nervous system can react to what’s going on.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7815
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 11:05 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s clearly defined altitudes for using the autopilot depending on the type of approach—precision, non-precision,nfor example. In F, you probably don’t have an idea on what’s in use, the altitude the autopilot was disengaged at and whether it’s in limits.


You're right. What conditions would warrant autopilot disconnect with but a few seconds to go? The example I gave was high overcaset with light south westerly winds.



PF felt like using the autopilot, maybe. Maybe fatigued, maybe company policy, maybe maintenance request to clear a squawk. Lots of good and not so good reasons. I’ve let the autopilot fly the approach in good weather and hand flown approaches in snow storms. Reasonably active pilots fly dozens every month.
 
kiowa
Posts: 871
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Fri May 21, 2021 11:32 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
Haha time to raise ATP minimums to 2500 hours!

I’m kidding...


In the same vein, they could raise the mandatory retirement age to 67.
 
Dan77W
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 11:57 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 12:03 am

FlyingJhawk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s clearly defined altitudes for using the autopilot depending on the type of approach—precision, non-precision,nfor example. In F, you probably don’t have an idea on what’s in use, the altitude the autopilot was disengaged at and whether it’s in limits.


You're right. What conditions would warrant autopilot disconnect with but a few seconds to go? The example I gave was high overcaset with light south westerly winds.


Not for nothing but dependent on the operator/aircraft an RNP AR approach would normally require the autopilot to be engaged until DA regardless of WX conditions.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1427
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 4:30 pm

AirKevin wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Anyways, it's not like the passengers could do anything with this kind of information. "Excuse me, flight attendant? I'm a little uncomfortable about the pilot saying he almost landed on the wrong runway. Is there another plane I can transfer to for the actual landing?"

So just because the passengers can't do anything with that information, you want to make them panic?


Maybe it isn't funny to anyone else, but I really didn't the joke was either subtle, and even less so that it would be misinterpreted as a argument for telling passengers information they can't do anything with.
 
sharles
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 7:48 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
The fact that nothing can be done about the situation is the precise reason nothing should be said, or a white lie presented.

It’s the reason we don’t send out a text or email saying your bag missed the flight until AFTER you land. We aren’t turning the airplane around for it, and we don’t want you to dwell on that issue for 2+ hours with no means to talk to customer service.

“There was traffic on the runway ahead of us and we had to do a go around” is a perfectly acceptable lie instead of “sorry folks, we lined up for the wrong runway. We’ll get it right next time”.

Circling the sky in a pressurized metal tube requires cooperation and calmness from all onboard. Some info doesn’t need to make it into the cabin.

The problem is that now I know that pilots are easily capable of lying and will panic no matter what they say. Because they could easily be lying.
How am I supposed to trust someone who instead of admitting a mistake, lies to my face? Especially since we all make mistakes, and aviation is safe specifically because mistakes are openly admitted, analyzed without blame and prevented in the future. OK, don't make the passengers worry. But don't lie!

That's why you can possibly omit information (because yes, passenger calmness is important), but lying should never be attempted, as that just creates mistrust in the future.

As for the bags example, if I know ahead of time that it didn't make the flight, I can use onboard wifi to order the things I need. Instead of scrambling to look for them at the last minute. Or after the time for same day delivery of shopping has passed.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 8:35 pm

sharles wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
The fact that nothing can be done about the situation is the precise reason nothing should be said, or a white lie presented.

It’s the reason we don’t send out a text or email saying your bag missed the flight until AFTER you land. We aren’t turning the airplane around for it, and we don’t want you to dwell on that issue for 2+ hours with no means to talk to customer service.

“There was traffic on the runway ahead of us and we had to do a go around” is a perfectly acceptable lie instead of “sorry folks, we lined up for the wrong runway. We’ll get it right next time”.

Circling the sky in a pressurized metal tube requires cooperation and calmness from all onboard. Some info doesn’t need to make it into the cabin.

The problem is that now I know that pilots are easily capable of lying and will panic no matter what they say. Because they could easily be lying.
How am I supposed to trust someone who instead of admitting a mistake, lies to my face? Especially since we all make mistakes, and aviation is safe specifically because mistakes are openly admitted, analyzed without blame and prevented in the future. OK, don't make the passengers worry. But don't lie!

That's why you can possibly omit information (because yes, passenger calmness is important), but lying should never be attempted, as that just creates mistrust in the future.

As for the bags example, if I know ahead of time that it didn't make the flight, I can use onboard wifi to order the things I need. Instead of scrambling to look for them at the last minute. Or after the time for same day delivery of shopping has passed.


You aren’t entitled to any of the information coming from the flight deck. It is a courtesy to provide some context in irregular situations, but no where is it required that they have to provide you with a play-by-play commentary of what they are doing.
 
bigb
Posts: 1352
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 8:35 pm

sharles wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
The fact that nothing can be done about the situation is the precise reason nothing should be said, or a white lie presented.

It’s the reason we don’t send out a text or email saying your bag missed the flight until AFTER you land. We aren’t turning the airplane around for it, and we don’t want you to dwell on that issue for 2+ hours with no means to talk to customer service.

“There was traffic on the runway ahead of us and we had to do a go around” is a perfectly acceptable lie instead of “sorry folks, we lined up for the wrong runway. We’ll get it right next time”.

Circling the sky in a pressurized metal tube requires cooperation and calmness from all onboard. Some info doesn’t need to make it into the cabin.

The problem is that now I know that pilots are easily capable of lying and will panic no matter what they say. Because they could easily be lying.
How am I supposed to trust someone who instead of admitting a mistake, lies to my face? Especially since we all make mistakes, and aviation is safe specifically because mistakes are openly admitted, analyzed without blame and prevented in the future. OK, don't make the passengers worry. But don't lie!

That's why you can possibly omit information (because yes, passenger calmness is important), but lying should never be attempted, as that just creates mistrust in the future.

As for the bags example, if I know ahead of time that it didn't make the flight, I can use onboard wifi to order the things I need. Instead of scrambling to look for them at the last minute. Or after the time for same day delivery of shopping has passed.


I think the bag example is a bad example. But 9 times out of 10, your average pax is clueless or could care less about what is going on even if trying to be open. I usually just kept it simple and omitted information that I felt was just too much information. Those who understand about what is going on (other crew members), if they want to know what went down, will ask after the flight.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7815
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sat May 22, 2021 8:45 pm

sharles wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
The fact that nothing can be done about the situation is the precise reason nothing should be said, or a white lie presented.

It’s the reason we don’t send out a text or email saying your bag missed the flight until AFTER you land. We aren’t turning the airplane around for it, and we don’t want you to dwell on that issue for 2+ hours with no means to talk to customer service.

“There was traffic on the runway ahead of us and we had to do a go around” is a perfectly acceptable lie instead of “sorry folks, we lined up for the wrong runway. We’ll get it right next time”.

Circling the sky in a pressurized metal tube requires cooperation and calmness from all onboard. Some info doesn’t need to make it into the cabin.

The problem is that now I know that pilots are easily capable of lying and will panic no matter what they say. Because they could easily be lying.
How am I supposed to trust someone who instead of admitting a mistake, lies to my face? Especially since we all make mistakes, and aviation is safe specifically because mistakes are openly admitted, analyzed without blame and prevented in the future. OK, don't make the passengers worry. But don't lie!

That's why you can possibly omit information (because yes, passenger calmness is important), but lying should never be attempted, as that just creates mistrust in the future.

As for the bags example, if I know ahead of time that it didn't make the flight, I can use onboard wifi to order the things I need. Instead of scrambling to look for them at the last minute. Or after the time for same day delivery of shopping has passed.


If you’re not the safety regulator, the company’s management or safety management, it quite frankly is none of your business why the crew went around. Your reference to “panicking is one reason—law suits over claimed distress.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Envoy (MQ) warned by FAA over "potential lack of airmanship"

Sun May 23, 2021 4:54 am

sharles wrote:
The problem is that now I know that pilots are easily capable of lying and will panic no matter what they say. Because they could easily be lying.
How am I supposed to trust someone who instead of admitting a mistake, lies to my face? Especially since we all make mistakes, and aviation is safe specifically because mistakes are openly admitted, analyzed without blame and prevented in the future. OK, don't make the passengers worry. But don't lie!

That's why you can possibly omit information (because yes, passenger calmness is important), but lying should never be attempted, as that just creates mistrust in the future.

Serious question. Pilot performs a go-around, passengers are going to want to know why. You don't want the passengers to panic, but you don't want the pilots to lie. If the pilots tell the passengers they lined up for the wrong runway, the passengers are going to panic. How do you explain the reason for the go-around without making the passengers panic.
Captain Kevin

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos