According to this article, Porter Airlines have placed an order for 30 Embraer 195s E2

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

I couldn't find any other source confirming this. If this is indeed true, I assume Porter will also switch their operation to YYZ (or at least part of it), as I don't see Billy Bishop Airport (YTZ) allowing jets anytime soon.

Vio wrote:

According to this article, Porter Airlines have placed an order for 30 Embraer 195s E2

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

I couldn't find any other source confirming this. If this is indeed true, I assume Porter will also switch their operation to YYZ (or at least part of it), as I don't see Billy Bishop Airport (YTZ) allowing jets anytime soon.

I've just seen it on Leeham, but interesting considering Porter had some preliminary agreement LOI/MOU/etc. with BBD for the C-Series. Can the E195-E2s operate at YTZ where there were restrictions with the C-Series? Edit, doesn't appear so, I believe it is jet operations that are prohibited (and certainly the E2 is a jet). If true, unless Canada has indicated jet ops are coming to YTZ given the market change from the pandemic, or Porter is going/adding another hub.

I’m surprised they’re still afloat, how much longer can they keep postponing operations?

So they say, they don’t plan to switch types. But 30 new aircraft in 22 and 23 is a lot of expansion.

I would take this with a grain of salt until confirmed, but honestly I would be pleasantly surprised if they did order these jets

https://simpleflying.com/unidentified-e ... -e2-order/

That must be them in that article...

United is partnered with Air Canada; Delta is partnered with Westjet; JeBlue and Porter have had a lose arrangement.

With the co-ordination between American and Jetblue, might this be in advance of tighter integration of American-JetBlue with Porter?

yyztpa wrote:

United is partnered with Air Canada; Delta is partnered with Westjet; JeBlue and Porter have had a lose arrangement.

With the co-ordination between American and Jetblue, might this be in advance of tighter integration of American-JetBlue with Porter?

Don Carty is the chairman of Porter, so it's a possibility.

TexasAirCorp wrote:

The article seems to suggest that the orders were placed by 'Porter Aviation Holdings', not the airline itself. Maybe they're planning to sublease them to other carriers? Perhaps they've set up an aircraft leasing arm, seeing as the airline doesn't seem to be planning to resume operations any time soon?

I can't imagine they have the funds for that when their own survival is at stake.

Posting a pic of A220, when an airline has ordered E2 series...most non-av geek stuff ever

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."

I am not sure it has anything to do with the E2 orders, if indeed Porter is the one that ordered those aircraft.

https://storeys.com/owner-billy-bishop- ... -investor/

VV wrote:

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."

I am not sure it has anything to do with the E2 orders, if indeed Porter is the one that ordered those aircraft.

https://storeys.com/owner-billy-bishop- ... -investor/

Completely unrelated. Jet operations are not allowed at YTZ and that is not a decision made by YTZ’s owner or operator.

Polot wrote:

VV wrote:

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."
...

Completely unrelated. Jet operations are not allowed at YTZ and that is not a decision made by YTZ’s owner or operator.

That point you mentioned, everybody knows.

But Porter was operating from YTZ in collaboration with the former operator of the airport. What if the airline wants to have the same conditions in terms of slot attributions and other operation conditions like the landing fees or whatever and there is no guarantee whatsoever the new airport operator would be willing to concede.

In reality Porter is currently in a dead end. The Q400 production has been paused indefinitely. There is no assurance Porter will be able to have other Q400 even if they want to stay at YTZ.
Q400 operation at YTZ does not allow them to grow.

The only other solution is going to a fleet with jets. Knowing that the tripartite agreement is not going to change any time soon and the runway extension project is not going anywhere then the only thing Porter can do is move outside YTZ. In addition the move would allow them to operate jets.

We also know that Porter's operation won't start again before October 2021. So, a delivery in 2022 is required to restart the airline with a new business model.

We know that Airbus Canada is not very keen to sell more A220-100 during the modification of the production system and the first A220 available delivery slot is way in the future, Porter does not have any other choice than to go with Embraer E2.

The other solution would be to close the airline altogether.

The question one should ask is what kind of business model upon which Porter can rebuild the airline.

Since when has the E195 the cockpit windows of the C-Series?

In reality Porter is currently in a dead end. The Q400 production has been paused indefinitely. There is no assurance Porter will be able to have other Q400 even if they want to stay at YTZ.
Q400 operation at YTZ does not allow them to grow.

Porter is hardly at a deadend. In fact, the Q400 production being paused gives Viking an opportunity to explore upgrades for a future version. Keep in mind there are over 100+ Q400's registered and were operating in Canada. Jazz, Encore and Porter all need this type of rugged type to operate in Canada's regional market. The ATR will never be a true option given it's increased block times and the distance between are metro areas and it's 1-engine out performance means it's pretty much a non-starter for B.C./Alberta ops.

The only other solution is going to a fleet with jets. Knowing that the tripartite agreement is not going to change any time soon and the runway extension project is not going anywhere then the only thing Porter can do is move outside YTZ. In addition the move would allow them to operate jets.

This would not be a solution but an expansion - if it did or does happen. YOW has always lacked proper domestic feed, with guaranteed routes only barely coming from provincial capitals and regional markets. YHZ and YTZ were decent markets for Porter pre-pandemic.

We also know that Porter's operation won't start again before October 2021. So, a delivery in 2022 is required to restart the airline with a new business model.

Not sure where you go this information but I can almost assure you, Porter will be launching this summer. Yes, many delays and pushacks but they are going to want to capture even the slightest summer market. Not like on a Monday morning in July you will see 26 Q400s launching out of YTZ. It will definitely be a phased restart.

We know that Airbus Canada is not very keen to sell more A220-100 during the modification of the production system and the first A220 available delivery slot is way in the future, Porter does not have any other choice than to go with Embraer E2.

Where is your source on that? Also, Porter does have a choice than to go with the E2. Continue to preserve their cash responsibly like they have and not change much about their business model. Just need to diversify their business routes to routes in the East/Central vacated by Air Canada and WestJet.

The other solution would be to close the airline altogether.

You do realize that at around mid-2019 they were sitting on almost $850 million from the terminal sale. Plus all aircraft are paid for. And they got a 150 million dollar CAD loan from Economic Development Bank - not specific to COVID relief. Porter is going nowhere and in my opinion, once they shed some of the triangle frequencies, they are going to go gangbusters with new routes in Eastern and Atlantic Canada

The question one should ask is what kind of business model upon which Porter can rebuild the airline.

Umm.. Again, apart from some adjustments to frequencies and city pairings (more leisure than business)- they should be nothing more than focus on what they were doing before.

Polot wrote:

VV wrote:

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."

I am not sure it has anything to do with the E2 orders, if indeed Porter is the one that ordered those aircraft.

https://storeys.com/owner-billy-bishop- ... -investor/

Completely unrelated. Jet operations are not allowed at YTZ and that is not a decision made by YTZ’s owner or operator.

Even if they were, that runway is not long enough for E195 operations.

rheinwaldner wrote:

Since when has the E195 the cockpit windows of the C-Series?

That’s a render of the A220 (C series at the time) from when Porter signed their provisional LOI. There is currently no official Porter E2 render, as the order has not been officially confirmed.

CFWAD wrote:

In fact, the Q400 production being paused gives Viking an opportunity to explore upgrades for a future version.

You are far more optimist than most about the chances of Q400 production ever restarting. Viking/De Havilland not only have to get new orders (when there are plenty of used Q400s up for grab thanks to Flybe dying and other airlines parking/selling their fleets) but also would need to set up a new FAL to build them.

zuckie13 wrote:

Polot wrote:

VV wrote:

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."

I am not sure it has anything to do with the E2 orders, if indeed Porter is the one that ordered those aircraft.

https://storeys.com/owner-billy-bishop- ... -investor/

Completely unrelated. Jet operations are not allowed at YTZ and that is not a decision made by YTZ’s owner or operator.

Even if they were, that runway is not long enough for E195 operations.

The plan was to slightly extend the runway if the tripartite agreement was amended and jets allowed.

zuckie13 wrote:

Polot wrote:

VV wrote:

There is an interesting article issued in March 2021 about Billy Bishop Toronto City Island airport.

It says, "the owner of Billy Bishop Airport is looking for a private sector investor to operate the downtown island airport."

I am not sure it has anything to do with the E2 orders, if indeed Porter is the one that ordered those aircraft.

https://storeys.com/owner-billy-bishop- ... -investor/

Completely unrelated. Jet operations are not allowed at YTZ and that is not a decision made by YTZ’s owner or operator.

Even if they were, that runway is not long enough for E195 operations.

Azul Linhas Aéreas operates the 195E2 every day at the SDU, with runways just 100 meters longer, under a much higher ambient temperature. Aucun problème.

CFWAD wrote:

In fact, the Q400 production being paused gives Viking an opportunity to explore upgrades for a future version.

You are far more optimist than most about the chances of Q400 production ever restarting. Viking/De Havilland not only have to get new orders (when there are plenty of used Q400s up for grab thanks to Flybe dying and other airlines parking/selling their fleets) but also would need to set up a new FAL to build them.

Canada has always had to be supportive of it's own aviation needs. As mentioned, 100+ alone of these aircraft are registered in Canada. They were built and designed in Canada particularly because they work so well in our sparsely populated and far distanced city pairs. To support our specific aviation needs, we still have the Boeing 737-200, DH-300s and even Harbour Air is currently looking to Transport Canada to approve turning it's fleet of 50+ year old float planes into an electric fleet. By the time Jazz, Porter and WestJet need to replace - those old Flybe birds will be twice recycled soda cans.

And again, being Canada, Viking would be almost certain to get a good hand out/ 0% loan from the Federal government.

avier wrote:

Posting a pic of A220, when an airline has ordered E2 series...most non-av geek stuff ever

Hahaha. I just realized that. Indeed. Shameful on my behalf. I should know better.

SA280 wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

zuckie13 wrote:

Even if they were, that runway is not long enough for E195 operations.

Azul Linhas Aéreas operates the 195E2 every day at the SDU, with runways just 100 meters longer, under a much higher ambient temperature. Aucun problème.

Regulations aside, the infrastructure issue at YTZ for a E195-E2 operation is apron size, not runway length.

If this is the issue, than so be it. But stating that the A220-100 has better shortfield performance than E195-E2 is a myth. People just ignore the fact that the model has the PW1922 as an option, with 23.000 lbf, and has lower MTOW than A220-100. And as stated on embraercommmercialaviation.com website, the current specs for the E195-E2 for the high thrust version is takeoff and landing on 1250 m runways.

There may not be as many Flybe Dash 8's on the market as everybody thinks, 11 of them have gone to Conair Aviation in British Columbia to be converted to airtankers. Is anybody keeping track of the sales of the ex Flybe fleet?

I know Connect Airlines ( Waltzing Matilda Aviation ) has acquired two of the ex FlyBe Qs.

With the Q400 basically dead this is an interesting story if true especially the aircraft selection.

CFWAD wrote:

CFWAD wrote:

In fact, the Q400 production being paused gives Viking an opportunity to explore upgrades for a future version.

You are far more optimist than most about the chances of Q400 production ever restarting. Viking/De Havilland not only have to get new orders (when there are plenty of used Q400s up for grab thanks to Flybe dying and other airlines parking/selling their fleets) but also would need to set up a new FAL to build them.

Canada has always had to be supportive of it's own aviation needs. As mentioned, 100+ alone of these aircraft are registered in Canada. They were built and designed in Canada particularly because they work so well in our sparsely populated and far distanced city pairs. To support our specific aviation needs, we still have the Boeing 737-200, DH-300s and even Harbour Air is currently looking to Transport Canada to approve turning it's fleet of 50+ year old float planes into an electric fleet. By the time Jazz, Porter and WestJet need to replace - those old Flybe birds will be twice recycled soda cans.

And again, being Canada, Viking would be almost certain to get a good hand out/ 0% loan from the Federal government.

Hand-outs from the Federal Government would certainly land Canada in troubled water at the WTO (see the decades-long Airbus-Boeing feud).
Plus, the market is very restricted (100+ planes is not enough).

The QSeries production has paused... with very little to no chance of restarting. It's sad, but it's the most realistic outcome.

According to outside sources Porter is in talks with YYZ and other airports about moving ops and creating jet services. BUT Porter denies the Embraer order or such talks with airports

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... ElB0UCQ1tS

This story simply doesn't make any sense. Where in any way shape or form does a market exist in Canada for 30 additional mid-size jets at this point. The Canadian domestic/USA market is already saturated. Are they going to fly YOW-YYT 3x daily? Maybe but I don't think there's going to be an extra 300 people per day all of a sudden popping up to jump on the route just for fun. What about the other 29 aircraft?
I bet no to this happening. Any takers?

Are they going to fly these planes?

KFTG wrote:

Are they going to fly these planes?

Which ones?

ikolkyo wrote:

I’m surprised they’re still afloat, how much longer can they keep postponing operations?

Remember.....they own their Q400 fleet and have little debt. Most staff is laid-off. They also made big $$ when they sold the Billy Bishop Terminal.

ikolkyo wrote:

I’m surprised they’re still afloat, how much longer can they keep postponing operations?

Pre-pandemic they were almost debt-free.

This article seems to indicate YOW is in the running, along with YHM, YKF and YXU: https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/05/port ... ce-fr.html

In addition to Toronto Pearson, Porter approached airports like Ottawa, Hamilton, Kitchener and London, one of the sources said. Airports declined to comment or did not respond to interview requests.

Out of all these YOW makes by far the most sense. It has the brand recognition in the city (Porter's first city pair was YOW-YTZ), it has a large terminal that could easily handle another 3-4 million pax without an expansion whereas all the others are small, it's sort of got the biggest population (i.e., if you assume nobody from Toronto uses YHM) and has always been in the shadow of YUL and YYZ. Now YXU/YHM/YKF-YOW 2-3x daily to feed YOW would make total sense, along with YUL to those places...and maybe elsewhere, but it'll be interesting to see how entrenched the ULCCs become at those airports, like they were pre-pandemic.

The article also says:

“We are not moving from Billy Bishop to any airport,”

In other words, the DH4s are going anywhere and neither is YTZ. However, they recognize a few things, including the fact that at least 30% of Eastern Triangle & EWR day trippers are probably permanently lost to online meetings, and that AC will be coming out of this a far smaller airline and it's now or never in terms of time to pounce.

AC can ramp up just as quickly as Porter. They already have huge capacity sitting around without having to dramatically increase their fleet like this article indicates Porter will have to do. I don't see YOW as all of a sudden generating huge increases in passenger demand, nor YXU. YHM has been tried and failed numerous times. Kitchener has little capacity.
It will be interesting to see how this miracle will unfold.

ghYHZ wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

I’m surprised they’re still afloat, how much longer can they keep postponing operations?

Remember.....they own their Q400 fleet and have little debt. Most staff is laid-off. They also made big $$ when they sold the Billy Bishop Terminal.

Didn’t they essentially mortgage the fleet to get that ~$130m loan at the start of the pandemic? (And without wanting to quibble over minor details, the last three aircraft were financed not owned outright).

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... government

The terminal sale in 2015 did wonders for the balance sheet. However, whether a healthy balance sheet was maintained after the sale, only management would know. What is known is that after the second profit sharing payment that followed the terminal sale, paid out in April 2016, profit sharing didn’t happen again for a few years after. Ask anyone who works/ed for Porter at Ottawa when the last profit sharing payment was. I gather profit sharing was replaced by performance based incentive payments in the last couple of years. A cynic might say that’s because it should be cheaper to pay 3% for performance rather than up to 15% on a profit basis and profit was finally being made. A more generous view is that switching to performance meant they could win some points and improve engagement by finding a way to pay a bonus without waiting for profit. You’re guess is as good as mine.

Of course, it’s possible that profit was made at some level but not shared with staff. As a private company, only the people who are privileged enough to see the accounts will know how the financial side of the business is. Losses were substantial before the terminal sale, cost cutting became fairly aggressive just prior to that transaction.

Source: https://canadianaviator.com/porter-deni ... raer-jets/

Porter Denies Buying Embraer Jets

Excerpt:

"Porter Airlines has so far denied persistent reports that it will look south, far south, for a fleet of jet aircraft to expand its service.
Several aviation news outlets, including Leeham News and Analysis and Aircraft Finance Journal are saying they have confirmed
that Porter, or its parent company Porter Aviation Holdings bought 30 Embraer E195 E2s to spread its schedule further west and south.
Porter might be splitting hairs by denying the airline has made a deal when the holding company, owned by the same family,
signed the papers but it nevertheless denied the report to several publications. It wasn’t budging when Leeham came calling.
“Our response to this speculation has been provided to others and published. We do not have anything further to add,”
Leeham said Porter told them in an email."

Could this be Porter's way of pressuring the government to revisit the previous talks to expand the island airport? They would be ordering a brazilian aircraft which could have instead been a Canadian built plane that would have helped contribute to our economy. Porter has always found a way to get what they want one way or another..

I'm a fan of the Q400 and a fan of Porter. But what is the point of their business model if they move to YYZ? Basically kills there niche and puts them head to head with Air Canada and other other carriers.

Skywatcher wrote:

AC can ramp up just as quickly as Porter. They already have huge capacity sitting around without having to dramatically increase their fleet like this article indicates Porter will have to do. I don't see YOW as all of a sudden generating huge increases in passenger demand, nor YXU. YHM has been tried and failed numerous times. Kitchener has little capacity.
It will be interesting to see how this miracle will unfold.

Very true about AC now, but when things ramp up, would they have as many? Would they devote assets to defending a large focus city or would they use those to rebuild their YUL & YYZ fortresses?

The thing with YOW is it doesn’t need a massive increase in O&D traffic. It’s got plenty of room though to handle a massive increase in connecting traffic. In “normal” times it’s by far the lowest percentage connecting traffic airport among the big 8 (plus #9 YTZ) at around 6-7% connecting. Pump the connecting percentage up to 35% and you’ll add 1.5 million pax to YOW’s count without any O&D stimulus...which obviously would happen. That extra 30% connecting traffic suddenly turns city pairs like YOW-SFO or YOW-LAX from being just shy of viability to being viable...especially on the E95 E2 that has the range vs an E1 and similar capacity but lower costs vs a 319.

Of course at this point though it’s pure speculation. Porter deny the order and everything I said above would assume YOW (or any airport) will get back to 2019 pax levels in the next 2-3 years.

Rumors were indeed true!

Porter Airlines of Toronto, Canada, is our North American launch customer for the E2. The carrier has placed a firm order for 30 E195-E2s with purchase rights for an additional 50 aircraft. Deliveries start in the second half of 2022.

The airline is pursuing an expansion plan that will complement its current route network from Toronto’s downtown Billy Bishop Airport. The new E2s will serve popular business and leisure destinations across Canada, the US, the Caribbean, and Mexico from Toronto Pearson Airport, Montréal, Ottawa and Halifax.

https://embr.cc/hnTV

Not the best kept secret, still surprising nonetheless.

They probably got a pretty good discount and favorable delivery slot over A220.

Official press release:
https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-p ... nd-embraer

leyland1989 wrote:

Not the best kept secret, still surprising nonetheless.

They probably got a pretty good discount and favorable delivery slot over A220.

Official press release:
https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-p ... nd-embraer

Why is this surprising? Did you think they had to buy Canadian made planes?

Jetport wrote:

leyland1989 wrote:

Not the best kept secret, still surprising nonetheless.

They probably got a pretty good discount and favorable delivery slot over A220.

Official press release:
https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-p ... nd-embraer

Why is this surprising? Did you think they had to buy Canadian made planes?

An airline that m hasn’t operated a single revenue flight in well over a year orders 30+50 jets and they have a main hub at an airport that doesn’t accept jets. I consider that a surprise.

I just find links on "up to 80."

We get excited about options being excercised for a reason. I assume it is the order for 30 previously reported:
https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

The Porter site says:
Our initial set of new routes will be finalized ahead of aircraft deliveries in mid-2022.

That delivery in a year would be unlikely with the A220. A nice strategic move by Embraer.

Lightsaber

Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?

So in addition to a younger fleet, they are nearly doubling seats even if they only go for the minimum 30.
It would be cool if they could start adding more dots on the map with these and giving AC a run for their money out of Toronto.

NearMiss wrote:

Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?

Not with the E195-E2, I expect they'll continue to operate the DH4 on the island for the foreseeable future.

NearMiss wrote:

Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?

Unlikely in my opinion. The jet ban is covered under a tripartite agreement between Toronto Port Authority, City of Toronto and Transport Canada. The wild card is the city. There are enough politicians who will likely veto due to the strong residents' opposition to jets.

I am really confused by Porter's plans. Porter has always been a boutique airline and as long as they operated the Q's, they were ignored. I never thought the CSeries order was ever going to be for the YTZ hub. Even when they placed that order it was never clear where they were going to operate from. If they move into YYZ, AC and WS will eat their lunch. The other option could be YHM but even today, transit connectivity to YHM is poor.

Very intriguing.