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Cubsrule
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:51 pm

SA280 wrote:
From their press release:

"We are planning to fly our new jets from Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax and Toronto Pearson International Airport, giving you more travel options with us. Destinations will include the west coast, and sunny spots in the southern United States, Mexico and the Caribbean"

https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-p ... nd-embraer


It seems to me that this has got to be a major push for point-of-sale share in places other than Toronto. They could maybe take up 10-15 planes with some service at YYZ that complements their YTZ service (YYC, YVR, LAX, maybe a sun destination or two) but they cannot and will not grow much more than that at YYZ I don't think.

I imagine that having jets could also free up some DH4s, as their YOW/YUL-Maritimes routes don't need to be on DH4s. I'm not too sure where those DH4s will go given that they can't grow much at YTZ.
 
elbandgeek
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:52 pm

I have to wonder if they're going to try and pump the gas again on a deal to open up jets at YTZ. The dash 8s won't fly forever and without an appropriate replacement eventually the island ops could become more and more of a challenge. Making this order now and committing to other bases ensures they have an operation to fall back on if it reaches that point but in the meantime they can give the expansion another go since so much has changed since the last try.
 
tphuang
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:53 pm

I don't see how they can get enough routes outside of YTZ to make this work. Their recipe for success is those precious YTZ slots.

At this point, they haven't operated for well over a year. Who really knows what kind of operation they will have.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:53 pm

golfradio wrote:
NearMiss wrote:
Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?


Unlikely in my opinion. The jet ban is covered under a tripartite agreement between Toronto Port Authority, City of Toronto and Transport Canada. The wild card is the city. There are enough politicians who will likely veto due to the strong residents' opposition to jets.

I am really confused by Porter's plans. Porter has always been a boutique airline and as long as they operated the Q's, they were ignored. I never thought the CSeries order was ever going to be for the YTZ hub. Even when they placed that order it was never clear where they were going to operate from. If they move into YYZ, AC and WS will eat their lunch. The other option could be YHM but even today, transit connectivity to YHM is poor.

Very intriguing.


YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYZ will be the bases for the jets, while the DH4s will continue to serve the YTZ hub. PD see the writing on the wall. They need to diversify in order to survive long-term. With Via Rail's faster and more frequent HFR in the pipeline for a start around 2030, PD's existing busiest route YOW-YTZ is most at risk of losing a big chunk of traffic to HFR.

Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.

I wonder if AA will pursue PD now for a codeshare partner that they've been without in Canada for a long time? I know B6 have interlined/joint-fared with PD for a long time.
 
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STT757
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:59 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
golfradio wrote:
NearMiss wrote:
Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?


Unlikely in my opinion. The jet ban is covered under a tripartite agreement between Toronto Port Authority, City of Toronto and Transport Canada. The wild card is the city. There are enough politicians who will likely veto due to the strong residents' opposition to jets.

I am really confused by Porter's plans. Porter has always been a boutique airline and as long as they operated the Q's, they were ignored. I never thought the CSeries order was ever going to be for the YTZ hub. Even when they placed that order it was never clear where they were going to operate from. If they move into YYZ, AC and WS will eat their lunch. The other option could be YHM but even today, transit connectivity to YHM is poor.

Very intriguing.


YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYZ will be the bases for the jets, while the DH4's will continue to serve the YTZ hub.

Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.

I wonder if AA will pursue PD now for a codeshare partner that they've been without in Canada for a long time? I know B6 have interlined/joint-fared with PD for a long time.


First congratulations to Embraer and Porter, second moving into other Canadian airports opens up the possibility to work with more carriers. A codeshare with AA makes a ton of sense, AA was a long partner of Canadian.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:02 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.


YOW-LAX/SFO is tight for the E195-E2 on the westbound leg. YHZ-LAS is a no go westbound. Too close to max range. This is where the 1000nm extra range of the A220-300 would have come in handy.

I think Porter, as far as YOW is concerned, will initially match AC on transcon routes to western Canada and routes to the US northeast and Florida. The rest is a long shot, to be honest.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:03 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
I have to wonder if they're going to try and pump the gas again on a deal to open up jets at YTZ. The dash 8s won't fly forever and without an appropriate replacement eventually the island ops could become more and more of a challenge. Making this order now and committing to other bases ensures they have an operation to fall back on if it reaches that point but in the meantime they can give the expansion another go since so much has changed since the last try.

Sure, and the EMBs from YYZ and elsewhere allow for much longer flights than the Qs out of YTZ and you can climb above most weather.

I flew BOS-YTZ and enjoyed the experience but the return leg suffered lots of delays due to thunderstorms (that would impact jets too at least till they climbed above the weather). By the time we finally boarded the airport was totally cleaned out of all food items so passengers were grumbling and we had to dodge the weather all the way home.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:06 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.


YOW-LAX/SFO is tight for the E195-E2 on the westbound leg. YHZ-LAS is a no go westbound. Too close to max range. This is where the 1000nm extra range of the A220-300 would have come in handy.


That's right. But if AA and PD wind up with some sort of relationship and PD grows some at YOW, perhaps PD doesn't have to be the one who operates YOW-LAX. There are lots of "ifs" in there, of course, but I'm definitely one who believes that some sort of tieup with AA makes sense.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:11 pm

golfradio wrote:
I am really confused by Porter's plans. Porter has always been a boutique airline and as long as they operated the Q's, they were ignored. I never thought the CSeries order was ever going to be for the YTZ hub. Even when they placed that order it was never clear where they were going to operate from. If they move into YYZ, AC and WS will eat their lunch. The other option could be YHM but even today, transit connectivity to YHM is poor.

Very intriguing.


Small carriers (some not even operating yet) announce ambitious expansion plans often enough, even in developed countries. (See Breeze, Avelo, Frontier in the U.S.) Have some fun - go back 5-8 years and read the press releases from carriers in India, Indonesia and elsewhere talking about 100+ orders with Boeing and Airbus in places that didn't have the ATC, runways or terminals that Canada has.

I'm assuming Porter will configure the E2s more in the fashion of a ULCC, not premium: no 35" seat pitch in coach, lie-flats or such. They will compete with AC on cost, not network breadth or frequency. IMHO Eastern Canada air travel could use some more price competition; like a lot of Canadian industries (banking, retail, phone/internet service), domestic air travel is pretty concentrated.
 
rampbro
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I'm assuming Porter will configure the E2s more in the fashion of a ULCC, not premium: no 35" seat pitch in coach, lie-flats or such. They will compete with AC on cost, not network breadth or frequency. IMHO Eastern Canada air travel could use some more price competition; like a lot of Canadian industries (banking, retail, phone/internet service), domestic air travel is pretty concentrated.


I would assume the opposite. Premium soft offering is their bread and butter, and they will either need to keep going with that model to fend of HFR on their main routes, or they've already decided to cede those flyers to the rails. The price sensitive traveller segment in Canada has new entrants and strong incumbents - I see PD going the other way on this one.
 
visual8L
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:27 pm

Opening Pandora’s box here. Not hyperbolic or rhetorical. Is there a formula that dictates what aircraft can operate at YTZ? Is it a combo of capacity, dimensions, performance ( think speed on landing/takeoff etc) and is there a bias regarding a shrouded turbine? Is it a tipping point in capacity requiring infrastructure? (facilities. Fire. Rescue) Does the public have input? I hope not because we all see what happens when uninformed people chime in on the virtue of their ‘I have rights’ soapbox. Hoping it’s not political in appeasing any one group. Rather on facts like noise dB safety and such. Thx
 
rampbro
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:32 pm

visual8L wrote:
Opening Pandora’s box here. Not hyperbolic or rhetorical. Is there a formula that dictates what aircraft can operate at YTZ? Is it a combo of capacity, dimensions, performance ( think speed on landing/takeoff etc) and is there a bias regarding a shrouded turbine? Is it a tipping point in capacity requiring infrastructure? (facilities. Fire. Rescue) Does the public have input? I hope not because we all see what happens when uninformed people chime in on the virtue of their ‘I have rights’ soapbox. Hoping it’s not political in appeasing any one group. Rather on facts like noise dB safety and such. Thx


The formula dictates a/c type - if it is a jet, it can't go there. Presumably hot tubs are also banned.
The public does have a very messy input, and in fact a few years ago a by-election was run in no small way around this issue. The stretch of land overlooking YTZ is some of the most valuable and exclusive real estate in Canada.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:33 pm

Great news for the E2 program. I hope Porter can make a success of this.
 
visual8L
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:39 pm

rampbro wrote:
visual8L wrote:
Opening Pandora’s box here. Not hyperbolic or rhetorical. Is there a formula that dictates what aircraft can operate at YTZ? Is it a combo of capacity, dimensions, performance ( think speed on landing/takeoff etc) and is there a bias regarding a shrouded turbine? Is it a tipping point in capacity requiring infrastructure? (facilities. Fire. Rescue) Does the public have input? I hope not because we all see what happens when uninformed people chime in on the virtue of their ‘I have rights’ soapbox. Hoping it’s not political in appeasing any one group. Rather on facts like noise dB safety and such. Thx


The formula dictates a/c type - if it is a jet, it can't go there. Presumably hot tubs are also banned.
The public does have a very messy input, and in fact a few years ago a by-election was run in no small way around this issue. The stretch of land overlooking YTZ is some of the most valuable and exclusive real estate in Canada.

Wow. Thanks. I see light corporate jets landing there. So is it weight? Is the public presented with facts or stuff like ‘ jets buzzing around everywhere’ to stoke drama ? Does London City,Newberry, or the like help or hinder?
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:40 pm

I really like Porter as a brand and I hope they can get out of this. I'm surprised anyone was willing to finance this deal given Porter hasn't had passengers in the air in over a year and right now there isn't really an end in sight for the US-Canada border to open up meaningfully which is the airline's bread and butter.

YYZ will be an interesting choice, are they planning on having a YTZ esque passenger lounge or will that be going by the wayside in order to be more cost effective?
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:48 pm

visual8L wrote:
rampbro wrote:
visual8L wrote:
Opening Pandora’s box here. Not hyperbolic or rhetorical. Is there a formula that dictates what aircraft can operate at YTZ? Is it a combo of capacity, dimensions, performance ( think speed on landing/takeoff etc) and is there a bias regarding a shrouded turbine? Is it a tipping point in capacity requiring infrastructure? (facilities. Fire. Rescue) Does the public have input? I hope not because we all see what happens when uninformed people chime in on the virtue of their ‘I have rights’ soapbox. Hoping it’s not political in appeasing any one group. Rather on facts like noise dB safety and such. Thx


The formula dictates a/c type - if it is a jet, it can't go there. Presumably hot tubs are also banned.
The public does have a very messy input, and in fact a few years ago a by-election was run in no small way around this issue. The stretch of land overlooking YTZ is some of the most valuable and exclusive real estate in Canada.

Wow. Thanks. I see light corporate jets landing there. So is it weight? Is the public presented with facts or stuff like ‘ jets buzzing around everywhere’ to stoke drama ? Does London City,Newberry, or the like help or hinder?


I believe medevac jets are an exception and allowed to operate there, that could be what you're seeing.
 
visual8L
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:54 pm

NYPECO wrote:
visual8L wrote:
rampbro wrote:

The formula dictates a/c type - if it is a jet, it can't go there. Presumably hot tubs are also banned.
The public does have a very messy input, and in fact a few years ago a by-election was run in no small way around this issue. The stretch of land overlooking YTZ is some of the most valuable and exclusive real estate in Canada.

Wow. Thanks. I see light corporate jets landing there. So is it weight? Is the public presented with facts or stuff like ‘ jets buzzing around everywhere’ to stoke drama ? Does London City,Newberry, or the like help or hinder?


I believe medevac jets are an exception and allowed to operate there, that could be what you're seeing.

Thanks again. It was a Westwind II. The irony huh. Risking lives using a jet with power plants in nacelles to save lives with a Medevac ;)
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:56 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.


YOW-LAX/SFO is tight for the E195-E2 on the westbound leg. YHZ-LAS is a no go westbound. Too close to max range. This is where the 1000nm extra range of the A220-300 would have come in handy.

I think Porter, as far as YOW is concerned, will initially match AC on transcon routes to western Canada and routes to the US northeast and Florida. The rest is a long shot, to be honest.


It is. However, keep in mind they said they'll have conversion rights to the E190-E2, which has quite a bit of additional range. YYZ-California's a given of course. As far as initial routes go, I think you're right, it'll be the usual and likely out of YYZ, YOW and YUL so that the likes of YWG, YYC, YEG and YVR see a decent number of departures per day each. YYZ-YHZ will probably also be an early route and YOW/YUL-YHZ might see some DH4-E95 upgauging in the summer months. That could free up a couple of DH4s for some feed from other DH4 stations, such as a YQB-YOW rotation to feed western flights. One thing is certain, YOW, YUL and YHZ, which are already PD's 2nd, 3rd and 4th largest bases, will continue to be, with YYZ in their top 5 in the years ahead.

You're also right about they'll no doubt shift a lot of domestic capacity to YYZ/YOW/YUL/YHZ-Florida & sun routes in winter.

Another question is, I wonder if they'll fly some YOW/YUL-YYZ in addition to YTZ? Come 2030, YOW-YYZ and YUL-YYZ traffic (especially the former) won't be nearly as affected by Via's HFR come 2030 as YTZ will be. Nothing will still beat flying to get to the western GTA.
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:59 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Very exciting news. Opens up new long-thin route possibilities like YOW-LAX/SFO and YHZ-LAS. The former airport has long coveted those two routes. However, until now the right aircraft/airline mix has never existed for them. Now they do.


YOW-LAX/SFO is tight for the E195-E2 on the westbound leg. YHZ-LAS is a no go westbound. Too close to max range. This is where the 1000nm extra range of the A220-300 would have come in handy.

I think Porter, as far as YOW is concerned, will initially match AC on transcon routes to western Canada and routes to the US northeast and Florida. The rest is a long shot, to be honest.


I wonder if they might mix in a few 190s for the added range? Or perhaps some of the additional 50 purchase rights may be converted to 190s after they get some operational experience with the 195? Time will tell.
 
baje427
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:07 pm

The only surprise is they went with the E jet but they had to do something staying at YTZ would have meant they were limited . Also with the Q400 out of production they had to look towards the future.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:24 pm

NearMiss wrote:
Will they be allowed to operate them out of YTZ despite the cancelled expansion?


They are operating them out of Toronto Pearson.
 
777luver
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:25 pm

Not sure how Canada can support 6 airlines for 37 million people or how sustainable it is. AC, WS, Air Transat, Sunwing, Flair, Porters expansion, WAY too saturated, someone will fail. On the other hand congrats to Porter.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:28 pm

It will look crowded in the Canadian skies soon with so much competition and capacity being added in the next few years. I expect some consolidation or closures to happen, for one, Air Transat looks like its on a backfoot to say the least.
 
iceberg210
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:43 pm

The best thing to happen to Porter might be the Q400 production being a giant question mark. They can certainly argue that if Toronto still wants service to a lot of the destinations they offer the only option will be for a jet because the ATR is the only thing in that size, and it simply can't operate some of the routes they run their Q's on. Glad to see this finally happened, and smart on Embraer's part to do whatever it took to get the order, the E2 is at a point where it almost doesn't matter the cost to take an order you have to do it just to make sure you get the economies of scale to keep it in production and get support for it in the field.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I just find links on "up to 80."

We get excited about options being excercised for a reason. I assume it is the order for 30 previously reported:
https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

The Porter site says:
Our initial set of new routes will be finalized ahead of aircraft deliveries in mid-2022.

That delivery in a year would be unlikely with the A220. A nice strategic move by Embraer.

Lightsaber


Wow that is a fast move. Really curious how the Canadian market plays out with Flair and Porter now aggressively expanding (although Flair isn't huge...yet).

I do love how Porter denied this so much.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:56 pm

777luver wrote:
Not sure how Canada can support 6 airlines for 37 million people or how sustainable it is. AC, WS, Air Transat, Sunwing, Flair, Porters expansion, WAY too saturated, someone will fail. On the other hand congrats to Porter.


Not necessarily. AC and AC Rouge each did pretty significant fleet retirements and cut orders. It also remains to be seen if Air Transat makes it out of this pandemic. WS seems to have put the breaks on expansion and has also cut orders. But I agree, Canada's aviation market will be interesting. Flair is really the first true ULCC (sorry, Swoop), so maybe there is a lot of demand stimulation to provide Flair's growth.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:58 pm

One thing to remember, even pre-covid they were losing money. Being a private company, their financial information was always a big question mark. A previous thread though, released links and information that answered that question.

But, with a virtual monopoly at their hub, flying a very efficient aircraft during boom times …. they were losing money!

I see this as the only way to profit. Problem is … they are competing against some pretty scrappy airlines quite willing to compete, on their own turf.

Porter used to have a boutique feel about it. Then they found out that extra leg room, enhanced in flight service and quirky F/A uniforms did nothing for the bottom line. All gone!
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:02 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Another question is, I wonder if they'll fly some YOW/YUL-YYZ in addition to YTZ? Come 2030, YOW-YYZ and YUL-YYZ traffic (especially the former) won't be nearly as affected by Via's HFR come 2030 as YTZ will be. Nothing will still beat flying to get to the western GTA.


It seems like this will really depend on the extent to which the business demand to the western GTA has good transit access, and I don't have a very good feel for that. With seemingly perpetual gridlock on the roads around YYZ, HSR to GO is potentially a competitive choice for places that have good GO service, but it seems to me that the majority of the business demand to the western GTA probably doesn't fit that bill.

In this conversation, it's probably worth remembering that YUL is going to have excellent transit access - on par with UP Express - by the time HSR starts, so on the Montreal end HSR probably won't have as much of an advantage over flying as it would if it existed today.
 
VV
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:03 pm

Interesting indeed.

It is unclear what they will do.

If they succeed in their endeavor then it would become one of the big players.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:54 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure how Canada can support 6 airlines for 37 million people or how sustainable it is. AC, WS, Air Transat, Sunwing, Flair, Porters expansion, WAY too saturated, someone will fail. On the other hand congrats to Porter.


Not necessarily. AC and AC Rouge each did pretty significant fleet retirements and cut orders. It also remains to be seen if Air Transat makes it out of this pandemic. WS seems to have put the breaks on expansion and has also cut orders. But I agree, Canada's aviation market will be interesting. Flair is really the first true ULCC (sorry, Swoop), so maybe there is a lot of demand stimulation to provide Flair's growth.


WS May have cut direct orders but that just takes the financial burden off the books. Don’t be surprised when those same number of aircraft arrive under a lease agreement.
 
rampbro
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:55 pm

Having thought about this for an hour, here is my WAG at the strategy.

Pearson is a bluff - it's all about YOW. Rapidly growing metro area, good name recognition in the area, lots of gates to use, and as another commenter pointed out, poor connectivity outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor. We just got a weekly YYJ-YOW on WS - housing prices are going through the roof in Ottawa. Having never flown PD, I don't know how they are on the bilingualism, but it may be an asset to compete against WS.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:11 pm

When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc
 
chrisa330
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:34 pm

freakyrat wrote:
When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc


The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:48 pm

This is a really exciting development, congrats PD!

I find this personally exciting that PD and F8 are taking on the incumbents in the Canadian domestic and transborder markets. It looks like we might see a slightly more diversified aviation landscape coming out of Covid. All we need now is a relaxation of some bilaterals and see some greater international competition being allowed... but before I break airliners.net - just kidding.

As at December 31, 2019, AC had 252 aircraft between mainline and RV; 24 of which were grounded 7M8s (so approximately 228 operating aircraft). The plan for December 31, 2021 (per their December 31, 2020 MD&A) has the airline contracting to 206 aircraft between mainline and RV. One way or another, AC will be sizeably smaller than they were pre-Covid if nothing changes between now and then. With the leisure sector leading the the recovery, AC will likely be left backfilling a lot of lost RV capacity with mainline, thus diverting mainline aircraft that might otherwise fill the markets were PD will be a new competitor. The real game changer would be if AC announces some wide-body acquisitions for RV thus lessening the need to divert mainline capacity... I guess time will tell.

Like I've been saying for quite some time, YOW and YUL seem like good markets to place capacity. YOW for the fact that both WS and AC have neglected some potential by diverting traffic through their other hubs; YUL for the fact that they have a good brand presence there and WS can't seem to gain any sort of foothold in the market.
 
Jetport
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:54 pm

777luver wrote:
Not sure how Canada can support 6 airlines for 37 million people or how sustainable it is. AC, WS, Air Transat, Sunwing, Flair, Porters expansion, WAY too saturated, someone will fail. On the other hand congrats to Porter.


Porter will be in a premium niche all on their own as I understand their current operations and their future plans. Air Canada is their only potential competition. Air Canada's history of dealing with competition probably gives Porter quite a bit of confidence.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:55 pm

chrisa330 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc


The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that

Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.
 
lostsound
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 pm

The E2 seems like a limited type to bank their future on if they truly envision trans-con flights, or even already well covered, heavy traffic routes like YYZ to MCO or YVR etc... curious to see what their route strategy will be. Always nice to see a variety of aircraft in Canada's skies, though I do wish they opted for the A220 as a fan of that aircraft.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:01 pm

If my memory serves me well, Porter once had a kind of commitment for the CS100.
It seems they have now changed their mind.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:03 pm

Jetport wrote:
Porter will be in a premium niche all on their own as I understand their current operations and their future plans. Air Canada is their only potential competition. Air Canada's history of dealing with competition probably gives Porter quite a bit of confidence.

Porter attempted a “premium niche” in the past, but today, they are little different from the competition. Don’t forget, it was Porter that introduced Canada to checked baggage fees.

Many North American carriers have attempted the “premium” model and none succeeded. Passengers love the high end treatment, they just won’t pay for it.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:14 pm

Perhaps we should not underestimate the E195-E2 after all.
I know it is only an order for 30 units and the deliveries would start in 2022.
It seems Porter is interested by the earlier availability of E2 compared to other aircraft.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:22 pm

lostsound wrote:
The E2 seems like a limited type to bank their future on if they truly envision trans-con flights, or even already well covered, heavy traffic routes like YYZ to MCO or YVR etc... curious to see what their route strategy will be. Always nice to see a variety of aircraft in Canada's skies, though I do wish they opted for the A220 as a fan of that aircraft.


To be honest, I do not see your point since the A220 does not offer commonality to the A321, for example. This indeed is something I would expect Airbus to address sometime in future by unifying the A220 with the A320 family when going for a NMA but it is highly hypothetical. At present, performance, slot delivery, pricing aside, it does not really matter what they fly on those routes compared to what they would use for a Long haul operation.

The A220 is now with a very healthy backlog and Airbus has not yet ramped up delivery so there will be some good orders probably coming the 195E2 because of this. Additionally, even if Embraer has given them a sweet price, expect this order to turn up a profit for them - something that Airbus has not yet managed on their orders for the A220 (apart probably from Air France's one... maybe...)
 
Jomar777
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:25 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
VV wrote:
Perhaps we should not underestimate the E195-E2 after all.
I know it is only an order for 30 units and the deliveries would start in 2022.
It seems Porter is interested by the earlier availability of E2 compared to other aircraft.


Agree and this is a natural mechanism to avoid monopoly. That's why, although competing head to head, the B737 and the A320 do get enough orders each. When the backlog becomes high for one, airlines order the other to cater for their needs.

I do not see Embraer going anywhere else neither Airbus failing to ship quite a good deal of A220s...
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:27 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Porter attempted a “premium niche” in the past, but today, they are little different from the competition. Don’t forget, it was Porter that introduced Canada to checked baggage fees.

Many North American carriers have attempted the “premium” model and none succeeded. Passengers love the high end treatment, they just won’t pay for it.


Just as an average consumer in the market, I would still perceive PD to be more premium than the competition, which I guess says something about the success of their marketing.

To me it looks like they might be starting to position themselves as JetBlue north. This could be very interesting to watch in the coming years.
 
rampbro
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:27 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Porter attempted a “premium niche” in the past, but today, they are little different from the competition. Don’t forget, it was Porter that introduced Canada to checked baggage fees.


Totally, but I think that has less with them trying to position as an LCC, and way more taking an actual OPEX problem and shrewdly selling it to their customers. When they started they specifically targeted day travelling business types - I don't see this as (very far) off brand for that.

Porter also (re)introduced Canadians to a free tipple at altitude. So far as I know they are the only airline in Canada with exclusive departure lounges for all their pax. These are aspects of soft product which are in stark contradiction to the majors.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:27 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Porter will be in a premium niche all on their own as I understand their current operations and their future plans. Air Canada is their only potential competition. Air Canada's history of dealing with competition probably gives Porter quite a bit of confidence.

Porter attempted a “premium niche” in the past, but today, they are little different from the competition. Don’t forget, it was Porter that introduced Canada to checked baggage fees.

Many North American carriers have attempted the “premium” model and none succeeded. Passengers love the high end treatment, they just won’t pay for it.


It seems to me like the premium question is a both/and, not an either/or. Certainly, there are aspects of the PD experience that remain premium, like the copious free alcohol. The aspects of the experience that are not premium, like bag fees, also are not that important to PD's core market of business travelers on short trips between huge cities. But PD absolutely competes on price for leisure travelers, even in the business-heavy city pairs.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:52 pm

It’s the same old story.

The E2’s cannot complete with 737NG’s and the Max on unit costs. It’s not a low unit cost airframe.

Head to head to southern destinations with no domestic feed network for 26 weeks a year?

Good luck.

Do they expect to feed YOW and YUL with YTZ originating traffic? Who on earth would fly YTZ to YOW on a Q400 to connect to an E2 to RSW or some such place when there are all kinds of n/s options from YYZ from carriers with networks to keep yields at compensatory levels when offering higher frequency.

They are going to essentially operate 2 different airlines; one is Q400 YTZ centric, the other isn’t. They are, for all intents and purposes, mutually exclusive as neither can competitively, (cost and service-wise), feed the other.

Anytime I see a startup, (and let’s be clear, this is a startup), bravely announce a massive airplane order (up to 80 frames 30 + 50), with a start date sometime in the distant future, when they haven’t generated a single asm in months strongly suggests they’re is an entirely different agenda at play. In many respects, long range planning in the industry is about 3 weeks. A nebulous start date sometime in 2022 is a negotiating ploy.

Given info provided in the lawsuit recently, Porter was not profitable even pre covid, I’d describe this a “Galileo Seven” strategy. .
Last edited by jimbo737 on Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:59 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
A nebulous start date sometime in 2022 is a negotiating ploy.


Ummm, no airline (or business even) ever really gives Month, Date, Year start dates. Mid-2022 is relatively clear and standard in the industry.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:02 pm

But why the need to announce anything at all?

Therein lies the issue.

You’ll find that if you look back at the success stories, the ones you want to emulate always kept their powder dry.

The ones that announced grandiose plans tended to amount to nothing.
Last edited by jimbo737 on Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SA280
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:03 pm

lostsound wrote:
The E2 seems like a limited type to bank their future on if they truly envision trans-con flights, or even already well covered, heavy traffic routes like YYZ to MCO or YVR etc... curious to see what their route strategy will be. Always nice to see a variety of aircraft in Canada's skies, though I do wish they opted for the A220 as a fan of that aircraft.

If PD ordered the E2 and even disclosed in a map all possible new destination they could serve, I'm pretty sure a performance guarantees contract has been signed to assure all plans are met.

The only markets out of YYZ, YOW or YUL the A220 would reach but certainly not the E2 are in continental Central America and northern South America. Everything relevant in Canada, US, Mexico and Caribbean might be properly served by the E2.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3495
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:06 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
But why the need to announce anything at all?

Therein lies the issue.

You’ll find that if you look back at the success stories, the ones you want to emulate always kept their powder dry.

The ones that announced grandiose plans tended to amount to nothing.


So you object to an order announcement? Lol. Man, you have a bone to pick with Porter more than anything else.

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