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ThePointblank
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:21 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure how Canada can support 6 airlines for 37 million people or how sustainable it is. AC, WS, Air Transat, Sunwing, Flair, Porters expansion, WAY too saturated, someone will fail. On the other hand congrats to Porter.


Not necessarily. AC and AC Rouge each did pretty significant fleet retirements and cut orders. It also remains to be seen if Air Transat makes it out of this pandemic. WS seems to have put the breaks on expansion and has also cut orders. But I agree, Canada's aviation market will be interesting. Flair is really the first true ULCC (sorry, Swoop), so maybe there is a lot of demand stimulation to provide Flair's growth.

I suspect that if the allegations contained in a lawsuit against Flair by one of its major shareholders is true, Flair won't be around for very long as well.
 
ScottB
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
The best thing to happen to Porter might be the Q400 production being a giant question mark. They can certainly argue that if Toronto still wants service to a lot of the destinations they offer the only option will be for a jet because the ATR is the only thing in that size, and it simply can't operate some of the routes they run their Q's on.


That's not a negotiating ploy which would be successful for PD; the response from Toronto and the Port would be to go fly the jets out of YYZ.

Cubsrule wrote:
It seems like this will really depend on the extent to which the business demand to the western GTA has good transit access, and I don't have a very good feel for that. With seemingly perpetual gridlock on the roads around YYZ, HSR to GO is potentially a competitive choice for places that have good GO service, but it seems to me that the majority of the business demand to the western GTA probably doesn't fit that bill.

In this conversation, it's probably worth remembering that YUL is going to have excellent transit access - on par with UP Express - by the time HSR starts, so on the Montreal end HSR probably won't have as much of an advantage over flying as it would if it existed today.


I didn't get this until I looked up the project, but it's "HFR" and not "HSR" -- high frequency, not high-speed. And it's frankly baffling to me. Toronto-Montreal, at maybe 600 km, is a market that I'd think would scream for high-speed rail. Tons of traffic, a large intermediate stop at Ottawa, and the terrain isn't especially challenging. They're building mostly new tracks from Toronto to Ottawa but the trip will still take 3h15 vs. 4h30 today. I'm not sure that beats flying out of YTZ if you're going to/from Downtown TO.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
A nebulous start date sometime in 2022 is a negotiating ploy.


Ummm, no airline (or business even) ever really gives Month, Date, Year start dates. Mid-2022 is relatively clear and standard in the industry.


I agree. 2022 isn't even that far away for industry standards. I do have some doubts about Porter's ability to be successful with 30 aircraft, but they do need to expand out of YTZ. What is this announcement negotiating for?
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:44 pm

IceCream wrote:
What is this announcement negotiating for?


A buyout from a larger airline presumably.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:39 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
chrisa330 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc


The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that

Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.


Travel Patterns change over time. Depends on the local business community. This is why the DOT tracks where people are connecting to from secondary cities in hubs like ATL, CLT, DTW, DFW. Airlines watch this data to see what their needs are and where to add service.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:42 pm

chrisa330 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc


The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that


I didn't know what kind of connecting opportunities there were at YTZ. I know they were fying to YTZ from MDW. GRR and IND may be able to support the Q to YTZ.
 
aamd11
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:40 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Many North American carriers have attempted the “premium” model and none succeeded. Passengers love the high end treatment, they just won’t pay for it.

Porter’s own management knew this. Hence the move towards baggage fees. They knew that for most of their passengers, the flight that was $1 cheaper was the one they’d book. So, take out the free bag, drop the fare by $5 and win that sale. Then make an additional $20 but charging the bag fee.

At least, that’s what they told the front line staff.
freakyrat wrote:
chrisa330 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
When the border opens back up again the order for jets opens up secondary markets with the Q400 from YTZ. GRR, SBN, IND, DAY, TOL etc


The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that


I didn't know what kind of connecting opportunities there were at YTZ. I know they were fying to YTZ from MDW. GRR and IND may be able to support the Q to YTZ.

The US routes have a decent portion of connecting traffic from the domestic Canadian stations, particularly YQT, YOW, YUL, YSB & YQG. It was not uncommon for connection passengers to account for a third of the traffic on YTZ-US. Adding a raft of secondary US destinations will result in cuts to the domestic stations that provide a substantial portion of the traffic. The loss of connectivity with the domestic stations will seriously hamper the viability of the secondary US routes - many of which would likely struggle to fill a 74-seater each day to begin with - and could also harm the existing big US routes like MDW.
 
9252fly
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:43 am

I could envision PD using the DH4 to feed into/out of YYZ and maintain service at YTZ at a lower frequencies by routing aircraft, ie, YTZ -YSB -YYZ -YSB - YTZ. You could come up with many scenarios where the same DH4 aircraft is operating into both YTZ and YYZ the same day.
 
trexel94
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:00 am

As far as inflight amenities are concerned, this excerpt was included in the announcement which hinted at potential IFE being installed. Other confirmed amenities include power ports, mood lighting and sensor based faucets in the lavs. No mention of WiFi which is surprising.

“We have plans to enhance the Porter service you love on our regional flights, to keep you entertained and comfortable on our longer-haul flights”

Im wagering they’ll install device streaming as opposed to PTVs.
 
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frootbroot
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:14 am

Congratulations to Porter! Hope they send them to LAX, would be a much better experience flying an E195-E2 than a 737MAX.

Honestly it isn't that big of a surprise that they went for Embraer jets instead of the A220. Since the Q400 might be not produced anymore and Embraer is planning on building a new turboprop for the market. If the E2 and the new Embraer turboprop share cockpit commonality then getting into the Embraer family seems like a no brainer. Especially since the new turboprop will allow them to continue operations out of YTZ. Wonder if that is the reason why they choose the E195-E2 over the A220, that added possibility of a new turboprop to continue operations out of YTZ.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:10 am

Please post comment with a link.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:11 pm

freakyrat wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
chrisa330 wrote:

The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that

Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.


Travel Patterns change over time.


They do. SBN, DAY and TOL have been lagging behind national growth rates for decades. The idea of 74-seat Q400s to YTZ (with little in the way of onward connections, unlike YYZ) is utterly preposterous. TOL has nothing but two E-145s to ORD tomorrow, and nothing at all to NYC. SBN gets CR2s to ORD, and again nothing to NYC. What do you think the demand is to Eastern Canada from those origins?!
 
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Vio
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:21 pm

According to the official Porter Instagram post, they'll be flying out of YYZ (Toronto Pearson) and other focus cities in Canada.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Porter orders up to 80 E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:42 pm

ScottB wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
It seems like this will really depend on the extent to which the business demand to the western GTA has good transit access, and I don't have a very good feel for that. With seemingly perpetual gridlock on the roads around YYZ, HSR to GO is potentially a competitive choice for places that have good GO service, but it seems to me that the majority of the business demand to the western GTA probably doesn't fit that bill.

In this conversation, it's probably worth remembering that YUL is going to have excellent transit access - on par with UP Express - by the time HSR starts, so on the Montreal end HSR probably won't have as much of an advantage over flying as it would if it existed today.


I didn't get this until I looked up the project, but it's "HFR" and not "HSR" -- high frequency, not high-speed. And it's frankly baffling to me. Toronto-Montreal, at maybe 600 km, is a market that I'd think would scream for high-speed rail. Tons of traffic, a large intermediate stop at Ottawa, and the terrain isn't especially challenging. They're building mostly new tracks from Toronto to Ottawa but the trip will still take 3h15 vs. 4h30 today. I'm not sure that beats flying out of YTZ if you're going to/from Downtown TO.


I think at 3h15 it's close. Remember that YTZ is brilliantly quick and convenient for an airport (and especially for an international airport) but it's still a good 15 minute bus ride or 20-25 minute walk from the heart of Toronto's CBD. Union Station is right in the thick of things, and with an easy subway connection to boot.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:51 pm

What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber
 
freakyrat
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.


Travel Patterns change over time.


They do. SBN, DAY and TOL have been lagging behind national growth rates for decades. The idea of 74-seat Q400s to YTZ (with little in the way of onward connections, unlike YYZ) is utterly preposterous. TOL has nothing but two E-145s to ORD tomorrow, and nothing at all to NYC. SBN gets CR2s to ORD, and again nothing to NYC. What do you think the demand is to Eastern Canada from those origins?!


I just threw some cities out there. SBN is not lagging behind national growth. In 2019 SBN served 821,000 passengers. SBN had an E145 to NYC until United removed RJ's from EWR due to congestion issues. Traffic is returning with AA starting a third CLT flight next month. DL is looking at mainline for ATL and also a flight to SLC and UA is going to 7-8 times daily to ORD and they are working on DEN. But all this is for the Indiana thread discussion.
 
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golfradio
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:02 pm

I will be happy to be proven wrong in time, but for now I am ready to close the chapter on Porter. I never expected them to come out of the pandemic alive, let alone with a new plan to fly out of YYZ. Congratulations to Embraer, btw!
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:45 pm

I wonder if there will be an announcement aligning or fully joining One world by PD.

I know people love to talk about PD and B6 but B6 don't serve YYZ and AA has been partnerless since CP was absorbed into the great maple leaf... And would offer good connection options.

I know some One world goes via WS now but I doubt it's a big deal to change

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber


It is possible Embraer takes a very prudent steps when starting the production.
They seem to have (perhaps involuntarily) match their low order intake and the slow ramp up.
Although it may not be planned, the actual situation is quite interesting for Embraer and E2. They ramp up roughly at the same pace as the order intake.

In addition, by taking time to make sure the "learning curve" is achieved, the modifications in the pipeline have been depleted or simply reduced significantly.

When you want to ramp up your production, it is much better when the production standard is stabilized. It is the B-A-BA of manufacturing.

Having many modifications in the pipeline generates many levels of standards and make the configuration management very-very heavy and very costly.

In addition at this point all kind of problems related to the hardware of PW1900G that is virtually identical to the PW1500G should have been corrected. Hence Embraer will start to deliver E2 in a much better condition now.

The order from Porter might not be the only one until the end of the year. Perhpas some airlines start to understand that a maximum range of 2,500 nm for such a an aircraft is more than sufficient.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MIA%2CCUN% ... MP=r&DU=mi
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:04 pm

VV wrote:
The order from Porter might not be the only one until the end of the year. Perhpas some airlines start to understand that a maximum range of 2,500 nm for such a an aircraft is more than sufficient.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MIA%2CCUN% ... MP=r&DU=mi


Ugh - standard conditions range. Let's see how reliably they do with full passenger counts YYZ-SEA/SFO each February, or PHX/LAS-YYZ on a 44C afternoon.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber

In last earnings post, Embraer did not give a guidance for deliveries in this year due to COVID uncertainties.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:12 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VV wrote:
The order from Porter might not be the only one until the end of the year. Perhpas some airlines start to understand that a maximum range of 2,500 nm for such a an aircraft is more than sufficient.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MIA%2CCUN% ... MP=r&DU=mi


Ugh - standard conditions range. Let's see how reliably they do with full passenger counts YYZ-SEA/SFO each February, or PHX/LAS-YYZ on a 44C afternoon.


I was EXPECTING this kind of comment.

The range circle is for 2,000 nm around Toronto.
Without wind it would be about five hours.
Hence with an actual maximum range of 2,500 nm and a headwind of about 100 knots, the E2 can reach all those airports.

I expect some European carriers to order E2 too.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:22 pm

With EIS not for a bit, I am not worried about the E2. It will be known by then and further debugged.

Jungleneer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber

In last earnings post, Embraer did not give a guidance for deliveries in this year due to COVID uncertainties.

That I knew, I wondered if they were giving 2022 guidance as it is already too late to order long lead time items like fusalages, engines, landing gear and we are there for seats, galleys, and water closets (must order now for the timeline).
.I have no insight into the E2 part stockpile. What are the plausible ranges of production? Engines would cap it at 4/month, in my opinion, in 2Q2022 and a little more later in the year.

As the world is learning, supply chains take a long time to turn on.

Lightsaber
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VV wrote:
The order from Porter might not be the only one until the end of the year. Perhpas some airlines start to understand that a maximum range of 2,500 nm for such a an aircraft is more than sufficient.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MIA%2CCUN% ... MP=r&DU=mi


Ugh - standard conditions range. Let's see how reliably they do with full passenger counts YYZ-SEA/SFO each February, or PHX/LAS-YYZ on a 44C afternoon.


In addition, why would people from Toronto go to Phoenix and why would people from Phoenix go to Toronto? LOL.

Having said the above, the distance between PHX/LAS to YYZ is "only" about 1,700 nm. In the direction from PHX-LAS, the tail wind would also help a little bit.
I think a much lower TOW than the MTOW is needed.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:40 pm

lightsaber wrote:
With EIS not for a bit, I am not worried about the E2. It will be known by then and further debugged.

Jungleneer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber

In last earnings post, Embraer did not give a guidance for deliveries in this year due to COVID uncertainties.

That I knew, I wondered if they were giving 2022 guidance as it is already too late to order long lead time items like fusalages, engines, landing gear and we are there for seats, galleys, and water closets (must order now for the timeline).
.I have no insight into the E2 part stockpile. What are the plausible ranges of production? Engines would cap it at 4/month, in my opinion, in 2Q2022 and a little more later in the year.

As the world is learning, supply chains take a long time to turn on.

Lightsaber


In the golden E1 era around 2008, Embraer was able to deliver almost 20 frames a month. But that seemed to not be sutainable. I believe 10-12 per month is the good number.
 
VX321
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:33 pm

VV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
VV wrote:
The order from Porter might not be the only one until the end of the year. Perhpas some airlines start to understand that a maximum range of 2,500 nm for such a an aircraft is more than sufficient.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MIA%2CCUN% ... MP=r&DU=mi


Ugh - standard conditions range. Let's see how reliably they do with full passenger counts YYZ-SEA/SFO each February, or PHX/LAS-YYZ on a 44C afternoon.


In addition, why would people from Toronto go to Phoenix and why would people from Phoenix go to Toronto? LOL.

Having said the above, the distance between PHX/LAS to YYZ is "only" about 1,700 nm. In the direction from PHX-LAS, the tail wind would also help a little bit.
I think a much lower TOW than the MTOW is needed.


Plenty of people across Canada vacation in Phoenix or have second homes. There’s plenty of demand. Less than from a western Canada, but still a good amount of demand. Heck Swoop and Flair are adding AZA from YYZ. AZ locals to Toronto is probably less but AC has a good connecting hub to Europe, so they could lure some people PHX-YYZ-Europe.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:47 pm

frootbroot wrote:
Congratulations to Porter! Hope they send them to LAX, would be a much better experience flying an E195-E2 than a 737MAX.

Honestly it isn't that big of a surprise that they went for Embraer jets instead of the A220. Since the Q400 might be not produced anymore and Embraer is planning on building a new turboprop for the market. If the E2 and the new Embraer turboprop share cockpit commonality then getting into the Embraer family seems like a no brainer. Especially since the new turboprop will allow them to continue operations out of YTZ. Wonder if that is the reason why they choose the E195-E2 over the A220, that added possibility of a new turboprop to continue operations out of YTZ.

This was my first thought! Assuming Embraer follows through with the new turboprop, and Porter survives long enough, we could see an all-Embraer fleet at Porter someday.

Indeed, it would behove Embraer to create some level of commonality between the E-Jets and their new TB. That would be a beneficial selling point, both for the E-Jets and the new turboprop.

It is a bit of a weird situation for Porter, though. They will be essentially running two separate airlines. But, without possibility of further expansion at YTZ, they don’t really have any other option for growth.

Perhaps also, Porter is looking to form a good relationship with Embraer, and possibly influence the design of the new turboprop. The one way that Porter could “expand” their operations at YTZ is if a new turboprop offered them more seats and range.
 
LDRA
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What does this do for the E2 production rate? What is the planned rate in 2022?

See, it is all about GTFs in service. ;)

Lightsaber


Delivery a year trom now implies aircraft already in production pipeline
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:55 pm

VX321 wrote:
VV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Ugh - standard conditions range. Let's see how reliably they do with full passenger counts YYZ-SEA/SFO each February, or PHX/LAS-YYZ on a 44C afternoon.


In addition, why would people from Toronto go to Phoenix and why would people from Phoenix go to Toronto? LOL.

Having said the above, the distance between PHX/LAS to YYZ is "only" about 1,700 nm. In the direction from PHX-LAS, the tail wind would also help a little bit.
I think a much lower TOW than the MTOW is needed.


Plenty of people across Canada vacation in Phoenix or have second homes. There’s plenty of demand. Less than from a western Canada, but still a good amount of demand. Heck Swoop and Flair are adding AZA from YYZ. AZ locals to Toronto is probably less but AC has a good connecting hub to Europe, so they could lure some people PHX-YYZ-Europe.


Going for vacation to Phoenix IN SUMMER and return to Toronto with direct flight? They are bizarre people.

PHX-YYZ to go to Europe? Come on ....
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:32 pm

aerolimani wrote:
frootbroot wrote:
Congratulations to Porter! Hope they send them to LAX, would be a much better experience flying an E195-E2 than a 737MAX.

Honestly it isn't that big of a surprise that they went for Embraer jets instead of the A220. Since the Q400 might be not produced anymore and Embraer is planning on building a new turboprop for the market. If the E2 and the new Embraer turboprop share cockpit commonality then getting into the Embraer family seems like a no brainer. Especially since the new turboprop will allow them to continue operations out of YTZ. Wonder if that is the reason why they choose the E195-E2 over the A220, that added possibility of a new turboprop to continue operations out of YTZ.

This was my first thought! Assuming Embraer follows through with the new turboprop, and Porter survives long enough, we could see an all-Embraer fleet at Porter someday.

Indeed, it would behove Embraer to create some level of commonality between the E-Jets and their new TB. That would be a beneficial selling point, both for the E-Jets and the new turboprop.

It is a bit of a weird situation for Porter, though. They will be essentially running two separate airlines. But, without possibility of further expansion at YTZ, they don’t really have any other option for growth.

Perhaps also, Porter is looking to form a good relationship with Embraer, and possibly influence the design of the new turboprop. The one way that Porter could “expand” their operations at YTZ is if a new turboprop offered them more seats and range.

Interesting you're mentioning that... when the same idea is being ridiculed when brought up about Airbus planes.
 
PowerJet
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:42 pm

That’s so interesting. I wonder how they’re able to do that considering they haven’t operated one revenue flight in more than a year, and they keep pushing back start dates even now.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:22 pm

VV wrote:
VX321 wrote:
VV wrote:

In addition, why would people from Toronto go to Phoenix and why would people from Phoenix go to Toronto? LOL.

Having said the above, the distance between PHX/LAS to YYZ is "only" about 1,700 nm. In the direction from PHX-LAS, the tail wind would also help a little bit.
I think a much lower TOW than the MTOW is needed.


Plenty of people across Canada vacation in Phoenix or have second homes. There’s plenty of demand. Less than from a western Canada, but still a good amount of demand. Heck Swoop and Flair are adding AZA from YYZ. AZ locals to Toronto is probably less but AC has a good connecting hub to Europe, so they could lure some people PHX-YYZ-Europe.


Going for vacation to Phoenix IN SUMMER and return to Toronto with direct flight? They are bizarre people.

PHX-YYZ to go to Europe? Come on ....


PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

PD, however, would be offering connections to a partner at Terminal 3, which is a rotten connecting point for anything but domestic connections.

PowerJet wrote:
That’s so interesting. I wonder how they’re able to do that considering they haven’t operated one revenue flight in more than a year, and they keep pushing back start dates even now.


I'm not sure how PD's failure to operate (and consequent failure to lose money) for the past year is really relevant to this conversation. If they'd burned through $500 million or whatever in the past year, you think it would make more sense for them to expand?
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:24 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
...

PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

...


Unless Porter works hand in hand with a major Canadian airline that operate trans-Atlantic flights (alliance, codeshare etc.), there is no chance it is going to happen, right?
 
jplatts
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:34 pm

PD entering into a partnership with AA might make sense as an AA-PD partnership would allow AA/PD to better compete against UA/AC and DL/WS on US-Canada travel.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15377
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:36 pm

VV wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
...

PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

...


Unless Porter works hand in hand with a major Canadian airline that operate trans-Atlantic flights (alliance, codeshare etc.), there is no chance it is going to happen, right?


Folks are talking about PD joining OneWorld, and it that happened there wouldn't be any reason that PD couldn't sell connections over YYZ (both domestic and transborder) off of OneWorld longhaul flights, but there aren't that many city pairs on which PD might offer connections that don't have lots of other service.
 
multimark
Posts: 482
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:39 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
IceCream wrote:
What is this announcement negotiating for?


A buyout from a larger airline presumably.


Deluce did it before.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:24 pm

multimark wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
IceCream wrote:
What is this announcement negotiating for?


A buyout from a larger airline presumably.


Deluce did it before.


Yeah, it wouldn't rule out the E195-E2 order and intent to operate out of the large eastern hubs doesn't trigger an entity like ONEX to make an offer. For ONEX, it might be a good move if they can keep it separate from WS, as the PD brand value is very good in the eastern part of the country.
 
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VDemerest
Posts: 13
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:19 pm

I have a few questions:

1. Has Porter ever turned a profit, and;
2. Have the ever published financials?
3. Where is the capital for all of these new jetliners coming from?
4. What markets does Porter (read: Bob & Michael & Don) intend to serve from Pearson and not get slammed by WestJet or Air Canada?

For those of you with little knowledge, the Deluce Aviation Family Syndicate has a history of creating companies only to bankrupt them and close the doors. The Deluces combined with Don Carty is a hefty combination of savvy, con-man-abilities and two old men (Bob and Don aren't kids, they are solidly in their 70's) still attempting to remain relevant in the smallest airline market north of the U.S. border.
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 1460
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:34 am

WayexTDI wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
frootbroot wrote:
Congratulations to Porter! Hope they send them to LAX, would be a much better experience flying an E195-E2 than a 737MAX.

Honestly it isn't that big of a surprise that they went for Embraer jets instead of the A220. Since the Q400 might be not produced anymore and Embraer is planning on building a new turboprop for the market. If the E2 and the new Embraer turboprop share cockpit commonality then getting into the Embraer family seems like a no brainer. Especially since the new turboprop will allow them to continue operations out of YTZ. Wonder if that is the reason why they choose the E195-E2 over the A220, that added possibility of a new turboprop to continue operations out of YTZ.

This was my first thought! Assuming Embraer follows through with the new turboprop, and Porter survives long enough, we could see an all-Embraer fleet at Porter someday.

Indeed, it would behove Embraer to create some level of commonality between the E-Jets and their new TB. That would be a beneficial selling point, both for the E-Jets and the new turboprop.

It is a bit of a weird situation for Porter, though. They will be essentially running two separate airlines. But, without possibility of further expansion at YTZ, they don’t really have any other option for growth.

Perhaps also, Porter is looking to form a good relationship with Embraer, and possibly influence the design of the new turboprop. The one way that Porter could “expand” their operations at YTZ is if a new turboprop offered them more seats and range.

Interesting you're mentioning that... when the same idea is being ridiculed when brought up about Airbus planes.

Well… the situation is a little different, isn’t it? The Embraer new TP is an anticipated, but not-yet-launched, in-house, clean-sheet design. It’s not like Airbus with ATR, whom Airbus likes to keep at arm’s length.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:28 am

aerolimani wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
This was my first thought! Assuming Embraer follows through with the new turboprop, and Porter survives long enough, we could see an all-Embraer fleet at Porter someday.

Indeed, it would behove Embraer to create some level of commonality between the E-Jets and their new TB. That would be a beneficial selling point, both for the E-Jets and the new turboprop.

It is a bit of a weird situation for Porter, though. They will be essentially running two separate airlines. But, without possibility of further expansion at YTZ, they don’t really have any other option for growth.

Perhaps also, Porter is looking to form a good relationship with Embraer, and possibly influence the design of the new turboprop. The one way that Porter could “expand” their operations at YTZ is if a new turboprop offered them more seats and range.

Interesting you're mentioning that... when the same idea is being ridiculed when brought up about Airbus planes.

Well… the situation is a little different, isn’t it? The Embraer new TP is an anticipated, but not-yet-launched, in-house, clean-sheet design. It’s not like Airbus with ATR, whom Airbus likes to keep at arm’s length.

I was talking Airbus planes (I said it verbatim); ATRs are not Airbus planes.
I agree that cockpit commonality is, in my opinion, a big thing; but it's usually ridiculed in other threads.
 
PowerJet
Posts: 36
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:00 am

Cubsrule wrote:
VV wrote:
VX321 wrote:

Plenty of people across Canada vacation in Phoenix or have second homes. There’s plenty of demand. Less than from a western Canada, but still a good amount of demand. Heck Swoop and Flair are adding AZA from YYZ. AZ locals to Toronto is probably less but AC has a good connecting hub to Europe, so they could lure some people PHX-YYZ-Europe.


Going for vacation to Phoenix IN SUMMER and return to Toronto with direct flight? They are bizarre people.

PHX-YYZ to go to Europe? Come on ....


PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

PD, however, would be offering connections to a partner at Terminal 3, which is a rotten connecting point for anything but domestic connections.

PowerJet wrote:
That’s so interesting. I wonder how they’re able to do that considering they haven’t operated one revenue flight in more than a year, and they keep pushing back start dates even now.


I'm not sure how PD's failure to operate (and consequent failure to lose money) for the past year is really relevant to this conversation. If they'd burned through $500 million or whatever in the past year, you think it would make more sense for them to expand?


Are their planes paid off? Have all residual wages been paid? What about maintenance? Landing fees? Storage costs? Evidently, they haven't lost too much but its remarkable they are able to look at expanding when many major carriers are cutting back.
 
santi319
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:05 am

PowerJet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
VV wrote:

Going for vacation to Phoenix IN SUMMER and return to Toronto with direct flight? They are bizarre people.

PHX-YYZ to go to Europe? Come on ....


PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

PD, however, would be offering connections to a partner at Terminal 3, which is a rotten connecting point for anything but domestic connections.

PowerJet wrote:
That’s so interesting. I wonder how they’re able to do that considering they haven’t operated one revenue flight in more than a year, and they keep pushing back start dates even now.


I'm not sure how PD's failure to operate (and consequent failure to lose money) for the past year is really relevant to this conversation. If they'd burned through $500 million or whatever in the past year, you think it would make more sense for them to expand?


Are their planes paid off? Have all residual wages been paid? What about maintenance? Landing fees? Storage costs? Evidently, they haven't lost too much but its remarkable they are able to look at expanding when many major carriers are cutting back.


Well its a risk but its well researched. Look at the countries where Covid is not a thing anymore. Business is booming, contrary to the doomsday scenarios many played. That will be true for Canada too. Covid paused the world, it didnt end it, and people are forgetting that. Life certainly goes on.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:46 pm

santi319 wrote:
PowerJet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

PD, however, would be offering connections to a partner at Terminal 3, which is a rotten connecting point for anything but domestic connections.



I'm not sure how PD's failure to operate (and consequent failure to lose money) for the past year is really relevant to this conversation. If they'd burned through $500 million or whatever in the past year, you think it would make more sense for them to expand?


Are their planes paid off? Have all residual wages been paid? What about maintenance? Landing fees? Storage costs? Evidently, they haven't lost too much but its remarkable they are able to look at expanding when many major carriers are cutting back.


Look at the countries where Covid is not a thing anymore.


I think you really meant to say, it's manageable, or something to that effect.
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1110
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:28 pm

freakyrat wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
chrisa330 wrote:

The jets will be operated from YYZ (and other cities) and Q400s from YTZ. There is no way those market could be supported with the limited onward connections at YTZ...the addition of the E2 doesn't change that

Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.


Travel Patterns change over time. Depends on the local business community. This is why the DOT tracks where people are connecting to from secondary cities in hubs like ATL, CLT, DTW, DFW. Airlines watch this data to see what their needs are and where to add service.



All this talk of opening up secondary US markets from YTZ: no US pre-clearance. So they are limited to destinations which can take international arrivals, are they not?. That puts YTZ at a significant disadvantage compared to YYZ.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15377
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:53 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Not to mention that YTZ is/was at maximum capacity with no more slots available. Any “new” cities would only be with the loss from somewhere else.

Historically, the cities mentioned could barely fill a 19, possibly a 37 seat aircraft. Quite a bit smaller than Porter’s 74 seat Q400s.


Travel Patterns change over time. Depends on the local business community. This is why the DOT tracks where people are connecting to from secondary cities in hubs like ATL, CLT, DTW, DFW. Airlines watch this data to see what their needs are and where to add service.



All this talk of opening up secondary US markets from YTZ: no US pre-clearance. So they are limited to destinations which can take international arrivals, are they not?. That puts YTZ at a significant disadvantage compared to YYZ.


No preclearance is correct, but much like places like YXU and YKF have Canada customs for beach flights, just about every US airport that could conceivably support service to Toronto has low-frequency service to CUN and international arrival facilities that handle the CUN flights. So immigration and customs availability isn't the reason that YTZ-secondary US doesn't make sense.

FWIW, if YTZ gets preclearance at some point I imagine PD will pretty quickly be in the hunt for LGA and DCA slots.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:45 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

No preclearance is correct, but much like places like YXU and YKF have Canada customs for beach flights, just about every US airport that could conceivably support service to Toronto has low-frequency service to CUN and international arrival facilities that handle the CUN flights. So immigration and customs availability isn't the reason that YTZ-secondary US doesn't make sense.

FWIW, if YTZ gets preclearance at some point I imagine PD will pretty quickly be in the hunt for LGA and DCA slots.


GRR is building an FIS, SBN and IND have one. SBN will get low-frequency service to CUN when G4 decides to open it up.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:56 pm

PowerJet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
VV wrote:

Going for vacation to Phoenix IN SUMMER and return to Toronto with direct flight? They are bizarre people.

PHX-YYZ to go to Europe? Come on ....


PHX-YYZ-Europe makes total sense, but only on AC/Star because of the ease of connecting in Terminal 1. Geographically, it's basically equivalent to connecting at ORD or DTW, and at least for passengers who don't mind longish walks, Terminal 1 is a dream.

PD, however, would be offering connections to a partner at Terminal 3, which is a rotten connecting point for anything but domestic connections.

PowerJet wrote:
That’s so interesting. I wonder how they’re able to do that considering they haven’t operated one revenue flight in more than a year, and they keep pushing back start dates even now.


I'm not sure how PD's failure to operate (and consequent failure to lose money) for the past year is really relevant to this conversation. If they'd burned through $500 million or whatever in the past year, you think it would make more sense for them to expand?


Are their planes paid off? Have all residual wages been paid? What about maintenance? Landing fees? Storage costs? Evidently, they haven't lost too much but its remarkable they are able to look at expanding when many major carriers are cutting back.


Pre-pandemic, only the 3 newest tails weren't fully owned.

On another forum, someone posted that Porter have already been at YOW scouting out locations for a new hangar and to plan for much larger YOW ops. Certainly lots of space at YOW vs YYZ...and probably much lower costs.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:15 pm

I would guess YOW would be Porter’s best bet for an expansion hub. But, don’t forget, pre-covid Air Canada flew nonstop from YOW to 21 destinations in Canada, the US, Europe and the Caribbean. One would think as things spool up again, they will likely do the same.

It’s going to be a tough grind for Porter to compete. You can count on Air Canada and Westjet protecting their turf.

Air Canada (for example), knows exactly how many people wish to fly from YOW to anywhere. As it’s always cheaper to fly a passenger on a nonstop flight, one would exist where the traffic warrants. The absolute last choice would be to route a passenger with a connection through a hub like YYZ or YUL, making the trip very expensive for the airline and lowering yield on the two legs.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 385
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Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:25 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
I wonder if there will be an announcement aligning or fully joining One world by PD.

I know people love to talk about PD and B6 but B6 don't serve YYZ and AA has been partnerless since CP was absorbed into the great maple leaf... And would offer good connection options.

I know some One world goes via WS now but I doubt it's a big deal to change

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


Previous to COVID I would've thought that AA and PD made no sense. But now that B6 and AA have formed that Northeast alliance and B6 have put good inroads into EWR which PD had a good operation out of offering I believe up to 5x flights a day between EWR-YTZ along with flights to BOS which is another B6 "hub" I wonder if turning the NEA trans-border would give AA,B6, and PD a mutual benefit.
 
Thomaas
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Updated: Porter Airlines Orders 30 Embraer E195-E2

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:49 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
I wonder if there will be an announcement aligning or fully joining One world by PD.

I know people love to talk about PD and B6 but B6 don't serve YYZ and AA has been partnerless since CP was absorbed into the great maple leaf... And would offer good connection options.

I know some One world goes via WS now but I doubt it's a big deal to change

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


Previous to COVID I would've thought that AA and PD made no sense. But now that B6 and AA have formed that Northeast alliance and B6 have put good inroads into EWR which PD had a good operation out of offering I believe up to 5x flights a day between EWR-YTZ along with flights to BOS which is another B6 "hub" I wonder if turning the NEA trans-border would give AA,B6, and PD a mutual benefit.


The biggest benefit would actually be YTZ-LGA and YTZ-DCA.

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