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dredgy
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:13 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:50 am

vhtje wrote:
Are the comments in this thread about cost structure of operating the 717 US-centric? QF (Operated by National Jet) seem happy with their 20 aircraft. Is QF the exception?


The cost structure is simply not that bad (in fact possibly quite good) since nearly every major 717 operator tried to get Boeing to restart production at some point and the Boeing CEO of the time is on record as saying it was too expensive to restart.

Qantas ended up with them by accident and ordered more in short order.
Internal surveys at Qantas the better part of a decade ago had the type as having the highest passenger satisfaction of the domestic fleet (this was before they had business class in them so probably just amongst economy passengers). The economics must have worked out, because as I said they ordered more of them. That said, they were replacing Bae-146s which were 4-engined so would have been odd for the 717 to not be more efficient.

The picture has to have changed somewhat since they have not acquired any of the many used frames that have recently been put out to pasture. I would expect Qantas to keep them as long as possible though as there’s no clear replacement. Maybe they move entirely to contracting out to Alliance or whomever for a lot of their regional operations.

AirTran I think was also clamouring for more, and they’re very important for Hawaiian.
 
USAirKid
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:16 am

LCDFlight wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:

New APU and ventilation system. FBW secondary flight controls, IIRC.


Indeed. There were many improvements and upgrades over the DC-9.

Imho, it is a fabulous little airplane, optimized for short range markets, that undersold its true potential, and is being retired far too early


Is there any future for weird jobs, or is the engine going to ground all B717?

Edit: the post above mine suggest maybe the 717 can have a long term future.


I’m not an expert, but there are variants that need specific certifications, so just because a member of an engine family still getting overhauled at one location, doesn’t mean that location will overhaul other members of that engine family. AFAIK, the MD-90 used a unique variant of a fairly common engine, and the only location certified to overhaul it was a facility in New Zealand. That charged a high rate. This was part of Delta’s reasoning to retire the type, since the engine overhauls were really expensive.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7595
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:44 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Is there any future for weird jobs, or is the engine going to ground all B717?

Edit: the post above mine suggest maybe the 717 can have a long term future.


The engines aren't really the issue -- others have pointed out that the BR700 family is a fairly popular engine for business jets. The B-52 re-engine helps the family but relying on a relatively uncommon member of the family probably does make outsourced engine maintenance more challenging, as Delta experienced with the MD-90s V2500 variant. The bigger problem is all the other spares which are needed to keep the 717 airworthy. Once Delta parks their 717s, the global active fleet drops to ~40 aircraft at HA and QFLink. That size of fleet wont provide enough volume for parts suppliers to be willing to chase the business at reasonable pricing.
 
melpax
Posts: 2197
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:56 am

[quote="dredgy"][/quote]

QF got their initial batch of 8 717's when they took over Impulse. They flew under the Qantaslink banner for a couple of years before the Impulse AOC became Jetstar, and the 717's were the initial JQ fleet while they waited for the A320s to come on board, before being transferred back to Qantaslink, where they do mainly tourist & smaller market routes. I don't think they've ever been used on Golden Triangle east coast routes.
 
dredgy
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:13 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:49 am

melpax wrote:
dredgy wrote:


QF got their initial batch of 8 717's when they took over Impulse. They flew under the Qantaslink banner for a couple of years before the Impulse AOC became Jetstar, and the 717's were the initial JQ fleet while they waited for the A320s to come on board, before being transferred back to Qantaslink, where they do mainly tourist & smaller market routes. I don't think they've ever been used on Golden Triangle east coast routes.


I am familiar with the history, having flown on the 717s on all 3 airlines.

Yes they are generally on routes between capital cities and major regional centers in Queensland and the territory. Maybe FIFO routes in WA, not sure.
Alice Springs to Darwin, Brisbane to Canberra etc. They don't do Brisbane to Rockhampton much anymore but am always happy to see them on on that route.

In Covid times I think they've flown Brisbane to Adelaide/Hobart, things like that as well, and moved around quite a bit as different states open and close.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:36 pm

With the impending Delta retirement known, the real question to speculate is how many of Delta’s once active fleet of 91 717s will be acquired by another operator for future service?

I understand the common bearish arguments for why the majority of these will not fly again, but I would be surprised if the ultimate answer was not greater than zero.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:27 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
With the impending Delta retirement known, the real question to speculate is how many of Delta’s once active fleet of 91 717s will be acquired by another operator for future service?

I understand the common bearish arguments for why the majority of these will not fly again, but I would be surprised if the ultimate answer was not greater than zero.

Who is going to pay to keep the parts network going? Delta was playing that role before. I speculate that is why Boeing scrambled to get the 717s back in service after Southwest decided to park them.

I can see HA or Qantas buying 717s for parts . But a new operator? Who will train them? Delta does that currently at their training center. But..."The Delta Aircrew Training Center employs highly qualified instructors on each fleet type that Delta Air Lines operates. DATC will teach the customers procedures and configure the training devices as closely as reasonably possible."
https://atpctp.delta.com/content/atp-ct ... grams.html

I love the 717, but if you look, there are plenty of idle 717s outside of Delta available if an airline wanted them.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-b717.htm

There are only three operators. The combination of the other two isn't going to keep up volume for parts, engine MRO, or airframe MRO as they only have 39 717s per the above line.
While there will be flying cannibalizing the old fleet for some time, we're not in a situation where they are not options:
viewtopic.php?t=1460947

There are so many A320 and 737NG parked, that would be a better option.

Lightsaber
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:49 am

Is the 717 a shrunken DC-9-40 or a shrunken MD-87?

It is one foot shorter than the DC-9-40 and six feet shorter than the MD-87.
 
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hawaiian717
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:08 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Is the 717 a shrunken DC-9-40 or a shrunken MD-87?

It is one foot shorter than the DC-9-40 and six feet shorter than the MD-87.


The 717 was originally designed to be the length of the DC-9-30 at the request of SAS. Once SAS decided on the 737-600 instead of the 717, McDonnell Douglas engineers gave the airframe a slight stretch to better accommodate the heavier engines, making it nearly the size of the DC-9-40.

Considering all the other upgrades, I wouldn’t consider the 717 a shrink of either the DC-9-40 or MD-87. Rather it’s the next iteration of the DC-9 family after the MD-90, targeted at smaller markets to complement its bigger sibling. Nor is it a simple shrink of the MD-90, as the new engines and other differences show, despite the original designation MD-95.
 
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Pythagoras
Posts: 149
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Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:21 am

Surprised that no one has mentioned as yet that the 737-600 was launched solely to put McDonnell Douglas out of the commercial airplane business, and then the merged Boeing ends up having to market both airplanes. And with both being derivatives of very old aircraft first flown in the 1960s that any entrant with new technology, e.g. CS300/A220, will eventually have the entire market segment to itself.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:52 am

dredgy wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Are the comments in this thread about cost structure of operating the 717 US-centric? QF (Operated by National Jet) seem happy with their 20 aircraft. Is QF the exception?


The cost structure is simply not that bad (in fact possibly quite good) since nearly every major 717 operator tried to get Boeing to restart production at some point and the Boeing CEO of the time is on record as saying it was too expensive to restart.

Qantas ended up with them by accident and ordered more in short order.
Internal surveys at Qantas the better part of a decade ago had the type as having the highest passenger satisfaction of the domestic fleet (this was before they had business class in them so probably just amongst economy passengers). The economics must have worked out, because as I said they ordered more of them. That said, they were replacing Bae-146s which were 4-engined so would have been odd for the 717 to not be more efficient.

The picture has to have changed somewhat since they have not acquired any of the many used frames that have recently been put out to pasture. I would expect Qantas to keep them as long as possible though as there’s no clear replacement. Maybe they move entirely to contracting out to Alliance or whomever for a lot of their regional operations.

AirTran I think was also clamouring for more, and they’re very important for Hawaiian.


AirTran was not clamoring for more 717s. They ordered 737s instead of more 717s because the 737 carried more passengers for roughly similar operating costs.
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:19 am

When did Boeing destroy the tooling for the 717?
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:59 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
When did Boeing destroy the tooling for the 717?


between 2004 and 2015, one would guess. Last 717 built in 2004, and in 2015 Boeing was auctioning off C-17 equipment to clear the site for commercial development. 717 tooling must have been gone by 2015.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:21 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
AirTran was not clamoring for more 717s. They ordered 737s instead of more 717s because the 737 carried more passengers for roughly similar operating costs.


AirTran was actually clamoring for the 717-300 stretch. And an ER variant. Boeing did not oblige as they had the leverage to drive AirTran towards the already active 73G. When Boeing announced they would be closing the line, AirTran submitted a final 717-200 top-off order.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:48 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
When did Boeing destroy the tooling for the 717?




Replace the "1" with a "5" and the replies for this thread will double... :rotfl:


Anyways, back to a meaningful reply, I think that the decision to end 717 production probably led them to scrapping the tooling within at least 1-2 years of the end of production announcement. They for sure would not have waited until 2015 to scrap it in my opinion. They simply didn't have the need for it.
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 619
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
DeltaMD95 wrote:
With the impending Delta retirement known, the real question to speculate is how many of Delta’s once active fleet of 91 717s will be acquired by another operator for future service?

I understand the common bearish arguments for why the majority of these will not fly again, but I would be surprised if the ultimate answer was not greater than zero.

Who is going to pay to keep the parts network going? Delta was playing that role before. I speculate that is why Boeing scrambled to get the 717s back in service after Southwest decided to park them.

I can see HA or Qantas buying 717s for parts . But a new operator? Who will train them? Delta does that currently at their training center. But..."The Delta Aircrew Training Center employs highly qualified instructors on each fleet type that Delta Air Lines operates. DATC will teach the customers procedures and configure the training devices as closely as reasonably possible."
https://atpctp.delta.com/content/atp-ct ... grams.html

I love the 717, but if you look, there are plenty of idle 717s outside of Delta available if an airline wanted them.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-b717.htm

There are only three operators. The combination of the other two isn't going to keep up volume for parts, engine MRO, or airframe MRO as they only have 39 717s per the above line.
While there will be flying cannibalizing the old fleet for some time, we're not in a situation where they are not options:
viewtopic.php?t=1460947

There are so many A320 and 737NG parked, that would be a better option.

Lightsaber


So just for the record, you are rebutting that not a single Delta 717 will ever have an active service life after being retired? Because if you re-read my post that’s exactly what my benchmark was. “Greater than zero.” IMO, you will be proven wrong.
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1917
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: 15 Years ago today- Last B717 delivered

Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:24 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
AirTran was not clamoring for more 717s. They ordered 737s instead of more 717s because the 737 carried more passengers for roughly similar operating costs.


AirTran was actually clamoring for the 717-300 stretch. And an ER variant. Boeing did not oblige as they had the leverage to drive AirTran towards the already active 73G. When Boeing announced they would be closing the line, AirTran submitted a final 717-200 top-off order.

How much range would an ER variant have? Would it exceed the range of the 733?

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