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Opus99
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Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Sun May 23, 2021 11:48 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... daily-mail

O'Leary comments again on talks with Boeing and hopes buy at least 100 MAX 10s by the end of this year for delivery from 2026
Last edited by SQ22 on Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 12:04 am

Good strategy.... would probably secure GREAT PRICING per aircraft at this juncture in time
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 12:48 am

This would be amazing. While being a (kind of) slow starter I think the MAX10 will be a big seller longterm.
Also Ryanair needs a bigger plane (lower CASM) to remain competitive.
 
a320fan
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 1:44 am

With Wizz really ramping up the A321 fleet, and Easy also bringing on 321s the MAX 10 is needed at FR to stay competitive with its peers on casm. I’m surprised they haven’t ordered a bunch already.
 
ABpositive
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 1:46 am

Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.
 
MDC862
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 5:39 am

Trying to figure out, are these planes for additional growth or fleet replacement?
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 5:45 am

ABpositive wrote:
Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.


If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 6:05 am

Great news for FR and Bowing. The -10 will give them a highly efficient plane to further strengthen their position in the European market.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 6:14 am

2026 seems pretty far out, I'd be surprised if they didn't get them sooner but 5 years isn't too long I guess. This order was a longtime coming.
 
jomur
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 7:09 am

So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 7:15 am

jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..

Probably why Ryanair keeps saying that they’re not there on price yet. But they will get there
 
VMCA787
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 9:06 am

jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 9:11 am

The MAX-10 will be great for Ryanair, I guess these are a follow-on from the 210 unit order being delivered through 2024.

lesfalls wrote:
If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.


What do you mean by "Europes next airline?" With 152 million passengers in 2019 their next competitor is the LH group with 145 million, IAG is 3rd with 118 million. Given that LH and IAG have a large number of wide body aircraft and FR have none, they are already Europe's airline. I think you misunderstand who FR's passengers are, in short it is everyone.
 
TexasAirCorp
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 10:34 am

lesfalls wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.


If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.


FR is already 'Europe's airline that everyone flies'. Corporate flying is practically dead. The future is high-volume, low-frequency service, hence why the MAX 10 is a good fit.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 10:44 am

VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.


Knowing Ryanair, they'd probably have the staff pay for their own training costs.

Switching from all-Boeing to all-Airbus is not unheard of, EasyJet has done this in the past. Remember they used to be all-Boeing as well until Airbus offered them a better deal. After losing EasyJet, I can't imagine Boeing wants to lose Ryanair as well.
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 10:59 am

VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.

Airbus won’t answer Ryanair. Ryanair did Airbus dirty a few years back if I recall correctly. Something along the lines of the deal was pretty much ready to go and then Ryanair did a last minute with Boeing and that was it.

Also Airbus don’t need the business
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 11:31 am

TexasAirCorp wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.


If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.


FR is already 'Europe's airline that everyone flies'. Corporate flying is practically dead. The future is high-volume, low-frequency service, hence why the MAX 10 is a good fit.


I wouldn't be so sure. Business travel might be down short-term we will probably still see corporate travel but in a different capacity. I was listening to the McKinsey Podcast with two of their travel analysts and they were discussing how most likely internal related travel will be down, but client travel will increase. I think the misconception is that people enjoy being on zoom calls every day and that its the only way forward. It will certainly be a facet of business going forward but zoom and virtual meetings merely increase the amount of clients you can reach, you'll eventually want to meet with in person to discuss details thus balancing out the loss in corporate travel initially.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 11:34 am

Opus99 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..

Probably why Ryanair keeps saying that they’re not there on price yet. But they will get there

That aside, Airbus has made it clear last time they were/are unwilling to stomp low to meet FR's price demand. Heck, they would have put their RFP request into shredder machine the moment they received it.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 11:59 am

People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
 
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REDHL
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 1:21 pm

GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.


Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
 
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GCT64
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 1:42 pm

REDHL wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.


Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s


Interesting, I hadn't seen that. Thanks for that reference.
They quote the CFO saying "We start returning the first A320s from the winter of 2022. Over a three- to four-year period, that fleet will wind down" - so it's planned to be back to all Boeing sometime in 2026.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 2:03 pm

lesfalls wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.


If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.


No - that strategy has bankrupted too many airlines before - it doesnt work

Ryanair are already Europe's biggest airline - they need to remain focussed and disciplined with point to point flying
 
JeremyXWB
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 2:05 pm

REDHL wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.


Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s


So does this mean that Lauda Europe will eventually transition to an all-737 fleet?
 
Galwayman
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 2:08 pm

a320fan wrote:
With Wizz really ramping up the A321 fleet, and Easy also bringing on 321s the MAX 10 is needed at FR to stay competitive with its peers on casm. I’m surprised they haven’t ordered a bunch already.


Wizz and Easy paid too much for those aircraft . They're going to drown in debt . FR has the right approach ,,,, nothing kills CASM like overpriced aircraft

FR doesn't have any peers - its too far ahead of these other airlines competitively
 
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REDHL
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 2:30 pm

JeremyXWB wrote:
REDHL wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.


Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s


So does this mean that Lauda Europe will eventually transition to an all-737 fleet?


Indeed, because by simplifying their fleet, that helps them a lot in reducing operational costs (especially now in these pandemic times). Therefore, the move makes sense.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 2:35 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.


Knowing Ryanair, they'd probably have the staff pay for their own training costs.

Switching from all-Boeing to all-Airbus is not unheard of, EasyJet has done this in the past. Remember they used to be all-Boeing as well until Airbus offered them a better deal. After losing EasyJet, I can't imagine Boeing wants to lose Ryanair as well.


Easyjet also didn’t have 400+ 737s in their fleet.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 3:07 pm

JeremyXWB wrote:
REDHL wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.


Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s


So does this mean that Lauda Europe will eventually transition to an all-737 fleet?


They have that option but it could just be closed down or sold with a valid AOC for A320s or whatever it most cost effective / cost beneficial at the time. Ryanair keeps all these different legal entities in different jurisdictions for a reason (and that is generally not for the employee's benefit).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 3:44 pm

GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.

Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.

We can agree on that. This is a brutal price negotiation. That takes months. Both sides hope the other side flinches first. Sometimes there are side negotiations.

I suspect this order will happen. FR could switch, nut unlikely.

Lightsaber
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 4:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
We can agree on that. This is a brutal price negotiation. That takes months. Both sides hope the other side flinches first. Sometimes there are side negotiations.

I suspect this order will happen. FR could switch, nut unlikely.

Anything is possible and FR do have an A320 airline. Interestingly they operate both CFM and IAE powered variants. I dont know if that was a case of acquiring whatever was available, or if they wanted some data on the IAE's. The original Air Berlin/Nikki A32x were all CFM, like FR's own 738 fleet.
Like you, I don't see FR operating A32x. They might be interested in A321XLRs or the unicorn A322/MoM if they wanted to get into long haul operations, but I just don't think the market is there and or that staff costs and aircraft utilisation can be optimised enough for FR to be interested. The -8200 with 197 seats, burning less fuel than the -800 is going to be a very competitive aircraft for Ryanair.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon May 24, 2021 5:18 pm

I wonder if this plays out like all our "A220 at WN' threads: fanciful posts about a loyal Boeing customer switching to Airbus, then when the inevitable happens and FR makes a huge MAX order hordes of now-silent people come out of the woodwork and said FR was never going to switch, and all the "Airbus at FR" dreamers disappear?

Can I get one "Airbus at FR is nonsense , FR is going order several big tranches of MAXes and replace all their NGs and then some over the rest of the decade and then some" just for the record?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#Fleet suggests they have ~420 NGs in the fleet and 210 MAXes on order, so roughly half the replacement orders are in place with half more to go, not to mention future growth. 100 MAX10s would absorb some of the growth, but also bring in more revenue for Boeing.
 
jomur
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:05 am

But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:24 am

VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.


Airbus have been burned too many times by Ryanair. They're welcome to request an offer, but are likely to be given a one-pager with the list prices.
 
kaitak
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:29 am

jomur wrote:
But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..


That's not quite correct. France is banning s/h domestic flights that can be operated by a train in less than 2h30. That still leave a lot of France which can still be served by air.

I am surprised that they will be waiting until 2026 to get these aircraft, but I guess, in the current environment, they're not in a hurry to add larger capacity aircraft (the Max 8200 will seat 197, not a lot more than the -800s; the -10 should seat about 230.)
 
astuteman
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:34 am

kaitak wrote:
jomur wrote:
But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..


That's not quite correct. France is banning s/h domestic flights that can be operated by a train in less than 2h30. That still leave a lot of France which can still be served by air.

I am surprised that they will be waiting until 2026 to get these aircraft, but I guess, in the current environment, they're not in a hurry to add larger capacity aircraft (the Max 8200 will seat 197, not a lot more than the -800s; the -10 should seat about 230.)


Get the deal today, when you need the deal, but not the aircraft, and get the aircraft in 2026 when you will need them.
Sounds sensible to me.
Interesting movement away from the -8 for Ryanair, and a good boost to the 737-10

Rgds
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:47 am

B777LRF wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.


Airbus have been burned too many times by Ryanair. They're welcome to request an offer, but are likely to be given a one-pager with the list prices.

With a sentence..."Thank you for the business opportunity but no thanks, please go fly kite far far away. (A phrase we use here in Asia meaning "you can shove it up where the sun doesn't shine" in a nice way.
 
marcelh
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 5:48 am

kaitak wrote:
jomur wrote:
But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..


That's not quite correct. France is banning s/h domestic flights that can be operated by a train in less than 2h30. That still leave a lot of France which can still be served by air.

I am surprised that they will be waiting until 2026 to get these aircraft, but I guess, in the current environment, they're not in a hurry to add larger capacity aircraft (the Max 8200 will seat 197, not a lot more than the -800s; the -10 should seat about 230.)

When Germany will vote “green” this year, dumping tickets for €1 may become prohibited. And in some countries in the EU, flying is considered more and more as eco unfriendly, so going for more efficient planes is the way to go.
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 6:48 am

Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.

Cheers! :wave:
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 7:52 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.

Cheers! :wave:

Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 9:11 am

jomur wrote:
But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..


The French domestic market share of FR is tiny anyway...they couldn't care less about the French domestic ban frankly.
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 9:13 am

Opus99 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.

Cheers! :wave:

Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding


I think you missed quite a bit in the earnings call, where O'Leary clearly wasn't as positive as you are trying to reflect it. Ryanair said this in their earning call (which was 17 May, just 8 days ago):

“We are now being told the first delivery will be in late May. I am not sure we necessarily believe that,” O’Leary said in a pre-recorded presentation following the release of the company’s full-year results. “As the management team in Seattle continues to mismanage that process I think there is a real risk we might not see any of these aircraft in advance of summer 2021,” O’Leary said.

(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryan ... AKCN2CY0BL)

Previously they said they wouldn't want to onboard the new type during the busy summer season that starts in June. In February, before the pause, the airline said it expected 8 MAXs in April and 8 in May and would utilise these during summer.

(https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-03-24/)

With deliveries starting 26 May, the airline will not be able to absorp the MAXs before June, which screws up their summer planning and that's why they are pissed off.

So, yes, I fully expect Ryanair to use this latest delay and cock-up of Boeing to negotiate a nice price for its intended MAX10-order. I would have done the same. But, I would also haven't burned my relation with Airbus as O'Leary did and asked Airbus about a nice quote for 100 A321neo. Enough is enough. But factoring in these latest delays and the probable compensation, the MAX10-order will probably have an unbeatable low price (I even expect it to be almost a loss-making order for Boeing).

Cheers! :wave:
 
VMCA787
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 10:45 am

Looks like we now know what MOL thinks of the 320 family.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
 
PhilipBass
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Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:30 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 11:57 am

I could be a very rich man if someone would only give me 1.2 billion euro on loan at .875% so that I could order the latest airplane models at a considerable discount to the price the majority of the market pays. Good luck to them.
Those planes will push competitors off busy city pairs during the mornings and evenings like Dublin - London, London-Brussels, Madrid-Brussels and then during the middle of the day will be ferrying people down from northern Europe to holiday destinations in the south of Europe.
All will be done while emitting the lowest CO2 per passenger KM on full planes known to the business with minimal maintenance costs in the near to medium term future.
Whatever the clouds are on the horizon you can be sure that Ryanair will sail through them.

It must be 15 years since I last saw a .99 cent flight on Ryanair. It served its marketing purpose if people are still referring to them all these years later.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 12:12 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
Looks like we now know what MOL thinks of the 320 family.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s


Or perhaps what Airbus thinks of MO'L ? :lol:

In other news Ryanair now putting out tentative enquiries for Boeing product that can out run a Mig-29 ! ;)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 12:14 pm

GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe).


Just thirty in a fleet of ~450 (and acquired by acquisition, not Ryanair order) is simply incidental.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 12:56 pm

Does "Lauda Europe" instead of just "Lauda" tell us that there will be another Lauda brand? Maybe for their long planned long range flights?
 
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Polot
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 3:36 pm

Noshow wrote:
Does "Lauda Europe" instead of just "Lauda" tell us that there will be another Lauda brand? Maybe for their long planned long range flights?

No. It is to distinguish it from the Austria based “Lauda”, formerly known as “Laudamotion”, that Ryanair shut down last year and replaced with the Malta based “Lauda Europe” in order to save costs. From a passenger’s (and livery) perspective there is no difference.
 
Jetport
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.

Cheers! :wave:

Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding


I think you missed quite a bit in the earnings call, where O'Leary clearly wasn't as positive as you are trying to reflect it. Ryanair said this in their earning call (which was 17 May, just 8 days ago):

“We are now being told the first delivery will be in late May. I am not sure we necessarily believe that,” O’Leary said in a pre-recorded presentation following the release of the company’s full-year results. “As the management team in Seattle continues to mismanage that process I think there is a real risk we might not see any of these aircraft in advance of summer 2021,” O’Leary said.

(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryan ... AKCN2CY0BL)

Previously they said they wouldn't want to onboard the new type during the busy summer season that starts in June. In February, before the pause, the airline said it expected 8 MAXs in April and 8 in May and would utilise these during summer.

(https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-03-24/)

With deliveries starting 26 May, the airline will not be able to absorp the MAXs before June, which screws up their summer planning and that's why they are pissed off.

So, yes, I fully expect Ryanair to use this latest delay and cock-up of Boeing to negotiate a nice price for its intended MAX10-order. I would have done the same. But, I would also haven't burned my relation with Airbus as O'Leary did and asked Airbus about a nice quote for 100 A321neo. Enough is enough. But factoring in these latest delays and the probable compensation, the MAX10-order will probably have an unbeatable low price (I even expect it to be almost a loss-making order for Boeing).

Cheers! :wave:


So according to LifelinerOne and many others on ANet, Boeing is about to make yet another low/no/negative margin deal. Even before the Max fiasco and COVID many on ANet seemed to believe that Boeing was selling at very low/no/negative margins every time they closed a large order. Now many including LifelinerOne believe that post Max/COVID Boeing is even more desperate and will sell everything to everyone at low/no/negative margins. I wonder how in the world Boing was much more profitable than Airbus pre-Max/COVID? :o I also wonder why Boing stock isn't at zero, because based on what I read on Anet Boeing is locking in losses for many years to come and will likely never be profitable again. :roll:
 
jbs2886
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 3:57 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe).


Just thirty in a fleet of ~450 (and acquired by acquisition, not Ryanair order) is simply incidental.


Pretty confident Lauda didn't have the 30 aircraft, Ryanair started acquiring more (used) A320s.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 4:00 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.

Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding

I think you missed quite a bit in the earnings call, where O'Leary clearly wasn't as positive as you are trying to reflect it. Ryanair said this in their earning call (which was 17 May, just 8 days ago):

“We are now being told the first delivery will be in late May. I am not sure we necessarily believe that,” O’Leary said in a pre-recorded presentation following the release of the company’s full-year results. “As the management team in Seattle continues to mismanage that process I think there is a real risk we might not see any of these aircraft in advance of summer 2021,” O’Leary said.

I think the "The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer" statement seems to be dubious, regardless of MOL's stated concerns. The production thread shows several recent ones coming out of the factory, and these would at worst need the grounding strap work, which most airlines seem to be banging out quite quickly. I do think there probably is a lot of negotiation posturing and subterfuge going on.
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1656
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Tue May 25, 2021 6:42 pm

Jetport wrote:
So according to LifelinerOne and many others on ANet, Boeing is about to make yet another low/no/negative margin deal. Even before the Max fiasco and COVID many on ANet seemed to believe that Boeing was selling at very low/no/negative margins every time they closed a large order. Now many including LifelinerOne believe that post Max/COVID Boeing is even more desperate and will sell everything to everyone at low/no/negative margins. I wonder how in the world Boing was much more profitable than Airbus pre-Max/COVID? :o I also wonder why Boing stock isn't at zero, because based on what I read on Anet Boeing is locking in losses for many years to come and will likely never be profitable again. :roll:


I’m in sales as well. A billion euros company actually. In the end we don’t look at all of our sales independently; we look at the total investment, costs and revenue. As long as the overall product line makes money (as in the intended return of investment), we are fine with a few sales campaigns that are on itself negative or break even. Why? Because it guarantees cashflow, a productive workforce and maybe more sales later on (for other products with other margins etc.). It’s about loyalty and keeping those customers locked-in your ecosystem.

Also, we know from other airlines that they were able to cancel their commitment to the MAX with no penalties due to the delays. This could also be the same for Ryanair. You can’t chance and bet that your customer won’t walk away someday. Especially not one holding that much leverage over you. 300+ MAXs is not something to sniff about and are valid for months of work and cashflow for the company.

And to be honest, Boeing’s stock isn’t probably the best thermometer to gauge the success of the B737MAX. That stock reflects the whole company, including their military products etc. But, when Boeing announced its latest B737MAX production delay in February, its stock did dip.

We all know Ryanair drives a hard bargain and in this case they have a bit more leverage due to the delays and the compensations they are entitled to. But, no one is going to force Boeing to make this deal, right? They can just stick to their price, pay out any delay compensations and leave it with that. Ryanair will grumble, make noise like they always do and might come back later as they still have the need for a larger aircraft. Or they are so pissed and go to Airbus, which is a slight possibility, because I fully expect them to go at it again at a later stage.

Cheers! :wave:
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