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travaz
Posts: 1134
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Reuters: Ryanair pressures Boeing on MAX-10 price, says 2021 order unlikely

Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 am

Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
How terrible AF etc aren't wringing the last penny out of the dollar! Maybe they can be as good as Wal*Mart and get their employees on public support as well. Yay, Capitalism!


This is totally OT and I would not resent the moderators if they remove it. But YAY Revelation! Lol

We have both been here a long time, and we have clashed over a difference of opinion more than once, which is cool, its what forums are for. But here we 100% agree. I don’t care what airline I am flying be it an ULCC or LCC or BA, I want the flight crew to be well rested, well paid and in the right mindset should shit go south.

I have often wondered about the business model of LCC’s. I understand that they are no frills hence cheap, therefore you can go without service. As a fattish European I can happily go almost a month without food, so a three-hour flight should be fine. Hell I could perhaps even do 4 days without water and still live to tell the tail. But what I can’t do is survive at 40K feet without jet fuel.

As much as I respect MOL, and I really do, he is really pushing the limits to what is acceptable, just because its cheap.


This is the reason I wont fly on a ULCC. I think people should be paid a fair wage so they can enjoy their life with family. Bottom line pay a little bit more so the crews can be paid a fair wage. BTW I don't shop at Walmart either.
 
Captaincurious
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:31 am

Re: Reuters: Ryanair pressures Boeing on MAX-10 price, says 2021 order unlikely

Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:27 pm

travaz wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
How terrible AF etc aren't wringing the last penny out of the dollar! Maybe they can be as good as Wal*Mart and get their employees on public support as well. Yay, Capitalism!


This is totally OT and I would not resent the moderators if they remove it. But YAY Revelation! Lol

We have both been here a long time, and we have clashed over a difference of opinion more than once, which is cool, its what forums are for. But here we 100% agree. I don’t care what airline I am flying be it an ULCC or LCC or BA, I want the flight crew to be well rested, well paid and in the right mindset should shit go south.

I have often wondered about the business model of LCC’s. I understand that they are no frills hence cheap, therefore you can go without service. As a fattish European I can happily go almost a month without food, so a three-hour flight should be fine. Hell I could perhaps even do 4 days without water and still live to tell the tail. But what I can’t do is survive at 40K feet without jet fuel.

As much as I respect MOL, and I really do, he is really pushing the limits to what is acceptable, just because its cheap.


This is the reason I wont fly on a ULCC. I think people should be paid a fair wage so they can enjoy their life with family. Bottom line pay a little bit more so the crews can be paid a fair wage. BTW I don't shop at Walmart either.


Though I understand your opinion, I respectfully disagree with your comment. I believe in the market and you can't deny that people still work in Ryanair despite their low wages, which shows there is a demand for those jobs. In addition, people will progress when they gain experience and go on to work for legacies or premium airlines where they can earn more salary. That is a ladder that ULCC provides which you shouldn't try to take away.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2834
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:02 pm

Seriously there are way worse jobs in aviation than flying for Ryanair. They are only attacked because they attack the cozy business model of the legacy airlines from monopoly days. While the same companies try to copy Ryanair.
Like the US before now Europe as well has a common market with free traffic rights and travel within. This is why the market opened up to new players. Copying Southwest's business model Ryanair did the same thing in Europe.
Certified aircraft, people and procedures, good safety record and no forced labor but new flying jobs in a slump. I know I sound like an advertiser but from a passenger standpoint they provide a solid product.
Last edited by Noshow on Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Captaincurious
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:31 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:05 pm

Noshow wrote:
Seriously there are way worse jobs in aviation than flying for Ryanair. They are only attacked because they attack the cozy business model of the legacy airlines from monopoly days. While the same companies try to copy Ryanair.
Like the US before now Europe as well has a common market with free traffic and travel within. This is why the market opened up to new players. Copying Southwest's business model Ryanair did the same thing in Europe.
Certified aircraft, people and procedures, good safety record and no forced labor but flying jobs in a slump. I know I sound like an advertiser but from a passenger standpoint they provide a solid product.


That's true. And they offer a lot of flexibility. The one way ticket provides a lot of advantages.
 
eicvd
Posts: 1473
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Reuters: Ryanair pressures Boeing on MAX-10 price, says 2021 order unlikely

Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:21 pm

travaz wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
How terrible AF etc aren't wringing the last penny out of the dollar! Maybe they can be as good as Wal*Mart and get their employees on public support as well. Yay, Capitalism!


This is totally OT and I would not resent the moderators if they remove it. But YAY Revelation! Lol

We have both been here a long time, and we have clashed over a difference of opinion more than once, which is cool, its what forums are for. But here we 100% agree. I don’t care what airline I am flying be it an ULCC or LCC or BA, I want the flight crew to be well rested, well paid and in the right mindset should shit go south.

I have often wondered about the business model of LCC’s. I understand that they are no frills hence cheap, therefore you can go without service. As a fattish European I can happily go almost a month without food, so a three-hour flight should be fine. Hell I could perhaps even do 4 days without water and still live to tell the tail. But what I can’t do is survive at 40K feet without jet fuel.

As much as I respect MOL, and I really do, he is really pushing the limits to what is acceptable, just because its cheap.


This is the reason I wont fly on a ULCC. I think people should be paid a fair wage so they can enjoy their life with family. Bottom line pay a little bit more so the crews can be paid a fair wage. BTW I don't shop at Walmart either.


Thinly veiled as I earn good money compared to most of you…….
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26983
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:11 pm

Noshow wrote:
Seriously there are way worse jobs in aviation than flying for Ryanair. They are only attacked because they attack the cozy business model of the legacy airlines from monopoly days. While the same companies try to copy Ryanair.
Like the US before now Europe as well has a common market with free traffic rights and travel within. This is why the market opened up to new players. Copying Southwest's business model Ryanair did the same thing in Europe.
Certified aircraft, people and procedures, good safety record and no forced labor but new flying jobs in a slump. I know I sound like an advertiser but from a passenger standpoint they provide a solid product.

If you think that's the only reason to attack FR, then you are looking through a straw.

eicvd wrote:
travaz wrote:
This is the reason I wont fly on a ULCC. I think people should be paid a fair wage so they can enjoy their life with family. Bottom line pay a little bit more so the crews can be paid a fair wage. BTW I don't shop at Walmart either.

Thinly veiled as I earn good money compared to most of you…….

Congrats, you dove into a pile of manure and found a pony.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2834
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:34 pm

I had mentioned their issues with unions and lack of some customer service elements myself above. After all they buy a lot of airplanes keeping many people busy. And concerning financial support for new routes and such: One does not have to like it but all airlines, including big players, demand stuff like this or try to one way or the other.

Ryanair draws a lot of fire for industry wide problems and unsolved issues. They are profitable (well usually) and they grow. This is a good base to start with.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:23 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
O’Leary is brutal negotiator. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got the planes at cost. He ordered after 9/11 and got the deal of the century.


He saved Boeing from obliteration again and and again - they should get on their knees and thank him for the next hundred years
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:37 pm

Noshow wrote:
Seriously there are way worse jobs in aviation than flying for Ryanair. They are only attacked because they attack the cozy business model of the legacy airlines from monopoly days. While the same companies try to copy Ryanair.
Like the US before now Europe as well has a common market with free traffic rights and travel within. This is why the market opened up to new players. Copying Southwest's business model Ryanair did the same thing in Europe.
Certified aircraft, people and procedures, good safety record and no forced labor but new flying jobs in a slump. I know I sound like an advertiser but from a passenger standpoint they provide a solid product.


The old timers with seniority and pretentiousness wannabes hate Ryanair . They just wanna sit around looking at their 401Ks while abusing the new hires who have to do all the work at cheap wages .

FR beats them all lock stock and barrel . Their airlines are just loss making ponzy schemes. Many of them with dreadful safety records . They’ll never admit that FR is a slick professional profitable airline where their bloated airlines are pretentiousness nightmares with mileage programmes that destroy the planet .

And of course FR staff are actually working so don’t waste time online
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Reuters: Ryanair pressures Boeing on MAX-10 price, says 2021 order unlikely

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:02 pm

Daysleeper wrote:

This is totally OT and I would not resent the moderators if they remove it. But YAY Revelation! Lol

We have both been here a long time, and we have clashed over a difference of opinion more than once, which is cool, its what forums are for. But here we 100% agree. I don’t care what airline I am flying be it an ULCC or LCC or BA, I want the flight crew to be well rested, well paid and in the right mindset should shit go south.

I have often wondered about the business model of LCC’s. I understand that they are no frills hence cheap, therefore you can go without service. As a fattish European I can happily go almost a month without food, so a three-hour flight should be fine. Hell I could perhaps even do 4 days without water and still live to tell the tail. But what I can’t do is survive at 40K feet without jet fuel.

As much as I respect MOL, and I really do, he is really pushing the limits to what is acceptable, just because its cheap.


Out of curiosity, if you are a passenger in any mode of transport, of what concern is it to you what the driver is paid? Are you seriously suggesting that skill, performance and even integrity is governed by what someone earns? When you mention acceptable....what if I may ask, and to whom? O'Leary is very much a very tough negotiator indeed but, at the end of the day, he can only buy aircraft at a price Boeing are willing to sell them at. I thus see your comment as equally saying Boeing must be very poor at negotiating sales....and yet they are in the driving seat with the final decision being theirs alone.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:07 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
O’Leary is brutal negotiator. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got the planes at cost. He ordered after 9/11 and got the deal of the century.


He did indeed and which shows what an astute businessman he is. However, as I have stated many times in the past, he can only buy aircraft at the price Boeing is willing to sell them at....the final decision is theirs alone. They can walk away any time they choose.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Reuters: Ryanair pressures Boeing on MAX-10 price, says 2021 order unlikely

Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:07 pm

Captaincurious wrote:
travaz wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:

This is totally OT and I would not resent the moderators if they remove it. But YAY Revelation! Lol

We have both been here a long time, and we have clashed over a difference of opinion more than once, which is cool, its what forums are for. But here we 100% agree. I don’t care what airline I am flying be it an ULCC or LCC or BA, I want the flight crew to be well rested, well paid and in the right mindset should shit go south.

I have often wondered about the business model of LCC’s. I understand that they are no frills hence cheap, therefore you can go without service. As a fattish European I can happily go almost a month without food, so a three-hour flight should be fine. Hell I could perhaps even do 4 days without water and still live to tell the tail. But what I can’t do is survive at 40K feet without jet fuel.

As much as I respect MOL, and I really do, he is really pushing the limits to what is acceptable, just because its cheap.


This is the reason I wont fly on a ULCC. I think people should be paid a fair wage so they can enjoy their life with family. Bottom line pay a little bit more so the crews can be paid a fair wage. BTW I don't shop at Walmart either.


Though I understand your opinion, I respectfully disagree with your comment. I believe in the market and you can't deny that people still work in Ryanair despite their low wages, which shows there is a demand for those jobs. In addition, people will progress when they gain experience and go on to work for legacies or premium airlines where they can earn more salary. That is a ladder that ULCC provides which you shouldn't try to take away.

The market is currently saying "enough is enough". Those jobs that used to be filled at minimum wage are no longer filled: Walmart, McDonald's and countless others have more that doubled the hourly wage. That's free market, it works both ways.
 
xwb777
Posts: 1264
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:02 am

It seems that Boeing has disagreed on the pricing and the negotiations has came to an end.
Image


Source: Aeronews
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:14 am

FR have got lots of time and money, Boeing lurches from crisis to crisis - they'll soon be back to offer Ryanair a deal.... tick tock
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 698
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:55 am

xwb777 wrote:
It seems that Boeing has disagreed on the pricing and the negotiations has came to an end.
Image


Source: Aeronews

Your post is missing two important words...."......end for now" lol
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:56 am

So, what's Ryanair going to do?

Order A321neo at better pricing than that of 737-10?

Airbus may be able to provide early delivery slots.

Is Airbus willing to discuss with Ryanair?
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 698
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:00 am

Hitting the newswire:

Ryanair says ends talks with Boeing on large jet order

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-09-06/

> Talks on MAX 10 end due to pricing, Ryanair says
> Ryanair says needs up to 250 jets
> No sign of talks with rival Airbus

DUBLIN, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Ryanair (RYA.I) has ended talks with Boeing (BA.N) on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

The budget giant is already the largest European customer for the 737 MAX, with 210 firm orders of the 197-seat MAX 8-200 model. It has said it could order up to 250 of the 230-seat MAX 10 for delivery from around 2025.

......Some analysts say the public standoff suggests that recent orders have given Boeing increased confidence to defend a red line on pricing as the MAX regains commercial momentum.

That contrasts with the pattern seen around six months ago when the MAX was reported to be available at aggressive prices.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:04 am

VV wrote:
So, what's Ryanair going to do?

Order A321neo at better pricing than that of 737-10?

Airbus may be able to provide early delivery slots.

Is Airbus willing to discuss with Ryanair?

To be honest, I don't think Ryanair needs those MAX 10 urgently at the moment. Current orders are enough to fulfill its demands for EU, Russia and fringe of Africa needs. Unless they are planning to jump on Transatlantic bandwagon overnight, there is really no need for MAX 10 at least for now or next few quarters.

I am thinking Airbus will actually put Ryanair RFP document into shredder machine immediately upon arriving at Toulouse office or stick a Post-It note "Thanks but no thanks for your business." and send it back to Dublin. Airbus has her hands full dealing with other customers.
Last edited by RoyalBrunei757 on Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:06 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Hitting the newswire:

Ryanair says ends talks with Boeing on large jet order

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-09-06/

> Talks on MAX 10 end due to pricing, Ryanair says
> Ryanair says needs up to 250 jets
> No sign of talks with rival Airbus

DUBLIN, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Ryanair (RYA.I) has ended talks with Boeing (BA.N) on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

The budget giant is already the largest European customer for the 737 MAX, with 210 firm orders of the 197-seat MAX 8-200 model. It has said it could order up to 250 of the 230-seat MAX 10 for delivery from around 2025.

......Some analysts say the public standoff suggests that recent orders have given Boeing increased confidence to defend a red line on pricing as the MAX regains commercial momentum.

That contrasts with the pattern seen around six months ago when the MAX was reported to be available at aggressive prices.


They had some good sales and the cancellations spree has stopped. Boeing has enough backlog for 6-8 years depending on ramp-up. So, I imagine that extra sales needs to bring in some good margin or else they walk away. Even if it is 250 birds…
 
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keesje
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:12 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
VV wrote:
So, what's Ryanair going to do?

Order A321neo at better pricing than that of 737-10?

Airbus may be able to provide early delivery slots.

Is Airbus willing to discuss with Ryanair?

To be honest, I don't think Ryanair needs those MAX 10 urgenetly at the moment. Crurrent orders are enough to fulfill its demands for EU, Russia and fringe of Africa needs. Unless they are planning to jump on Transatlantic bandwagon overnight, there is really no need for MAX 10 at least for now or next few quarters.

I am thinking Airbus will actually put Ryanair RFP document into shredder machine immediately upon arriving at Toulouse office or stick a Post-It note "Thanks but no thanks for your business." and send it back to Dublin. Airbus has her hands full dealing with other customers.


No Airbus proposal at all seems very unlikely. An A321NEO formal proposal at normal (~Easyjet / Wizz Air) pricing / discount levels (reflecting Airbus' market position) is probably on MOL's desk. And he probably feels it's too high. :yes:

Collins Pratt might be willing to put in aggressive 500 GTF 10 year PBH offer, in their marketshare fight with CFM..
Last edited by keesje on Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:25 am

Galwayman wrote:
FR have got lots of time and money, Boeing lurches from crisis to crisis - they'll soon be back to offer Ryanair a deal.... tick tock


That's what MOL is thinking. But the last thing Boeing needs now is a loss making deal.

VV wrote:
So, what's Ryanair going to do?

Order A321neo at better pricing than that of 737-10?

Airbus may be able to provide early delivery slots.

Is Airbus willing to discuss with Ryanair?


Earlier delivery slots? No way. Even if these were available, they will be sold at a premium price, not a bargain.

A few months ago, an Airbus top executive said in an interview they have more requests for proposals than they are willing to handle. So Airbus has the luxury of only picking the RFP's they really are interested in. KLM for example, rumors from inside are saying the chances of an Airbus deal are getting stronger every day. Jet2, a bit surprisingly, I must admit. But Ryanair? I don't think Airbus' point of view of dealing with MOL has changed... They may send him a price list with terms and conditions, and if FR wants to order Airbus will only accept it under their conditions - not negotiable.

So, we will probably hear MOL in an interview saying he's in advanced negotiations with Russia for the MC21 and China for the C919, expecting to announce the largest narrowbody order in history very soon :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20191
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:32 am

Galwayman wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Seriously there are way worse jobs in aviation than flying for Ryanair. They are only attacked because they attack the cozy business model of the legacy airlines from monopoly days. While the same companies try to copy Ryanair.
Like the US before now Europe as well has a common market with free traffic rights and travel within. This is why the market opened up to new players. Copying Southwest's business model Ryanair did the same thing in Europe.
Certified aircraft, people and procedures, good safety record and no forced labor but new flying jobs in a slump. I know I sound like an advertiser but from a passenger standpoint they provide a solid product.


The old timers with seniority and pretentiousness wannabes hate Ryanair . They just wanna sit around looking at their 401Ks while abusing the new hires who have to do all the work at cheap wages .

FR beats them all lock stock and barrel . Their airlines are just loss making ponzy schemes. Many of them with dreadful safety records . They’ll never admit that FR is a slick professional profitable airline where their bloated airlines are pretentiousness nightmares with mileage programmes that destroy the planet .

And of course FR staff are actually working so don’t waste time online


You forgot the sarcasm emoji.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20191
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:34 am

Galwayman wrote:
FR have got lots of time and money, Boeing lurches from crisis to crisis - they'll soon be back to offer Ryanair a deal.... tick tock


Boeing has plenty of cash and time. They can wait until Ryanair really needs these planes and all the while the price will rise and O'Leary has nowhere else to go.

Tick tock, indeed.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2834
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:25 pm

Or there might receive a bottle of french champagne and flowers in the mail every morning at Ryanair HQ now.
"Appelez-moi" :mrgreen:
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2554
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:52 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
I am thinking Airbus will actually put Ryanair RFP document into shredder machine immediately upon arriving at Toulouse office or stick a Post-It note "Thanks but no thanks for your business." and send it back to Dublin. Airbus has her hands full dealing with other customers.

It's highly unlikely Airbus will not respond to an RFQ; but they will send them "standard" prices and conditions. That's what you do you don't need to deal with a PITA customer, yet don't want them to accuse you of blacklisting them.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:32 pm

Ryan needs to buy planes at a price that supports their business plan. Likewise Boeing needs to sell them at a price which supports theirs. It is entirely possible for a buyer and seller to have ended negotiations with the conclusion that a deal will not work. At this time. It does not necessitate feelings of anger, betrayal, or the end of a business relationship. It may merely mean Boeing cannot offer the MAX-10 at the price Ryan needs. As another poster mentioned, maybe Ryan doesn't need the capabilities of the -10 all that badly (yet). Boeing may be able produce that model more efficiently. The market could change. And we really can't say that Ryan will never order new 321s. Those 200 passenger 8s may be good enough. Who knows?
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:43 pm

Talks have ended:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/r ... NewsSearch

Ryanair has ended talks with Boeing on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:10 pm

The MAX is the only significant commercial program Boeing has left at this moment. This is why they might be practically unable to afford any firesale priced offers to FR. Somewhere they finally MUST earn their money. Maybe FR just has to wait until 777X progress is cleared and 787 deliveries have resumed?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:47 pm

Noshow wrote:
The MAX is the only significant commercial program Boeing has left at this moment. This is why they might be practically unable to afford any firesale priced offers to FR. Somewhere they finally MUST earn their money. Maybe FR just has to wait until 777X progress is cleared and 787 deliveries have resumed?


So, you're arguing that Boeing doesn't want to give them away today, but will when cashflow is better? Hah hah!

If Boeing isn't capacity-constrained then every unit that covers variable manufacturing cost and a little more (something the A220 doesn't do today) yields a positive contribution margin, even before considering parts and service work.

Lightsaber's argument seems pretty plausible - although it's not the only plausible interpretation.

lightsaber wrote:
My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber
 
SEU
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:49 pm

Boeing has no need to sell these Max 10s to FR for cheap, they know Airbus won't beat them on price for the A320neo series due to backlog and delivery time slots.

Vise versa though, FR doesn't need to place the order, they have very young fleet of NGs and lots of -8200s coming.
 
travaz
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Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:52 pm

And Boeing fires back.
https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing- ... SL8N2Q82HZ
Looks like Boeing is not going to roll over and let FR have their way.
“Ryanair is a long-standing partner. We value their business and are committed to supporting them,” a Boeing spokesperson said. “At the same time, we continue to be disciplined and make decisions that make sense for our customers and our company.”
:box:
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 698
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:00 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
I am thinking Airbus will actually put Ryanair RFP document into shredder machine immediately upon arriving at Toulouse office or stick a Post-It note "Thanks but no thanks for your business." and send it back to Dublin. Airbus has her hands full dealing with other customers.

It's highly unlikely Airbus will not respond to an RFQ; but they will send them "standard" prices and conditions. That's what you do you don't need to deal with a PITA customer, yet don't want them to accuse you of blacklisting them.

I concur with your statement. I was merely joking when I wrote above. :P
 
SIVB
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Talks have ended:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/r ... NewsSearch

Ryanair has ended talks with Boeing on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber


I think is just as simple as this. Ryanair evaluated the MAX10 and thought it could use the aircraft, but at a certain price that Boeing wasn’t willing to offer. Plenty of options for the MAX8200, so you can’t blame MOL for trying. Just another day in the business.

OTOH, we can all discuss if Ryanair is a garbage product, or mistreats employees, but I won’t accept certain comments that are simply not true. Full disclosure, I am a Ryanair captain, and on any given day I load whatever extra fuel I require for the flight, do a go-around whenever I feel is necessary, or delay a flight to complete a briefing or checklist, and I have never received an email or call questioning my decision. If any, the input we receive from management and training is clear: safety first! Captain’s total discretion to load extra fuel, no blame policy for go arounds, no rush to complete procedures of checklist. With regards to rest, the roster is 5 days on, 4 days off; on blocks alternate between early and late duties, but never within a block. These policies regarding safety and rest are much better than in my previous “legacy” airline.

Everyone is entitled to share their opinion, especially in an Internet forum, but please try to keep it fair and don’t dress opinions as facts.
 
bluecrew
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:04 pm

marcelh wrote:
VV wrote:
Okay.

Similar incoherent messages are posted again.
- Airbus would not make deal with Ryanair.
- Ryanair does not want to order 737-10 because it's too expensive
- Perhaps Airbus might offer A321neo, but at "normal" price (whatever it means

So what is the reality?

Are people just babbling incoherently?



Result from last year talks between Ryanair and Airbus:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

O’Leary said he currently viewed talking with Airbus as a waste of his time.

“We would not initiate talks with Airbus until such time as Airbus wants to initiate talks with us,” he said in an interview.

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

So... he wants a discount?

Meanwhile, every legacy out there is dropping 100+ A3xx neo orders on a semi-weekly basis, the exclusivity arrangement between the big US carriers and Boeing is about ten years collapsed and they all operate Airbus, and Airbus is offering an airplane with mission capabilities that the MAX just does not have.

It's not a great time to be Gary Kelly or Mike O'Leary. I don't think GK's little media tour or having his assistant dial the Dallas Morning News to "anonymously" tip that Gary was on the next flight to Montreal to get a tour of the C Series is going to move Boeing.

No discounts. And good for Boeing.
 
VS11
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:39 pm

This order looks more and more likely by the day. This posturing is just bluffing, and Boeing called the bluff. Money is still cheap. FR will be wise to order now.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:52 pm

SIVB wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Talks have ended:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/r ... NewsSearch

Ryanair has ended talks with Boeing on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber


I think is just as simple as this. Ryanair evaluated the MAX10 and thought it could use the aircraft, but at a certain price that Boeing wasn’t willing to offer. Plenty of options for the MAX8200, so you can’t blame MOL for trying. Just another day in the business.

OTOH, we can all discuss if Ryanair is a garbage product, or mistreats employees, but I won’t accept certain comments that are simply not true. Full disclosure, I am a Ryanair captain, and on any given day I load whatever extra fuel I require for the flight, do a go-around whenever I feel is necessary, or delay a flight to complete a briefing or checklist, and I have never received an email or call questioning my decision. If any, the input we receive from management and training is clear: safety first! Captain’s total discretion to load extra fuel, no blame policy for go arounds, no rush to complete procedures of checklist. With regards to rest, the roster is 5 days on, 4 days off; on blocks alternate between early and late duties, but never within a block. These policies regarding safety and rest are much better than in my previous “legacy” airline.

Everyone is entitled to share their opinion, especially in an Internet forum, but please try to keep it fair and don’t dress opinions as facts.


Thank you for posting the facts . The drivel some people post must be driving you around the bend .
 
marcelh
Posts: 1576
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:58 pm

SIVB wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Talks have ended:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/r ... NewsSearch

Ryanair has ended talks with Boeing on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber


I think is just as simple as this. Ryanair evaluated the MAX10 and thought it could use the aircraft, but at a certain price that Boeing wasn’t willing to offer. Plenty of options for the MAX8200, so you can’t blame MOL for trying. Just another day in the business.

OTOH, we can all discuss if Ryanair is a garbage product, or mistreats employees, but I won’t accept certain comments that are simply not true. Full disclosure, I am a Ryanair captain, and on any given day I load whatever extra fuel I require for the flight, do a go-around whenever I feel is necessary, or delay a flight to complete a briefing or checklist, and I have never received an email or call questioning my decision. If any, the input we receive from management and training is clear: safety first! Captain’s total discretion to load extra fuel, no blame policy for go arounds, no rush to complete procedures of checklist. With regards to rest, the roster is 5 days on, 4 days off; on blocks alternate between early and late duties, but never within a block. These policies regarding safety and rest are much better than in my previous “legacy” airline.

Everyone is entitled to share their opinion, especially in an Internet forum, but please try to keep it fair and don’t dress opinions as facts.



Here some facts:
https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/25/hotr-ryanairs-oleary-pissed-but-wants-737-max-10/
Interesting part:
” Little known is that the MAX 10 was designed specifically for Ryanair, according to a key ex-Boeing employee on the program at the time. But O’Leary, who loves bargain-basement pricing and to kick a dog when it’s down, didn’t place a launch order. With Boeing facing a long recovery because of the 21 months MAX grounding, exacerbated by the pandemic, now’s the time for O’Leary to go shopping. Ryanair, like so many other MAX customers, is owed a lot of handholding and discounts by Boeing.”


The MAX10 will come to Ryanair sooner or later, but only a bit less cheap. IMHO they need the plane for further expansion. With the MAX8-200 Ryanair is already adding capacity without adding flights and the MAX10 will be the next step.
 
VS11
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:09 pm

SIVB wrote:

I think is just as simple as this. Ryanair evaluated the MAX10 and thought it could use the aircraft, but at a certain price that Boeing wasn’t willing to offer. Plenty of options for the MAX8200, so you can’t blame MOL for trying. Just another day in the business.



It is not that simple. This is not going to a used car dealership and asking for a deal. Such large aircraft order usually is driven by long-term business strategy. You don’t typically walk away from negotiations central to your strategy. The strategy is not “let see how low Boeing can go”. If they have engaged so far, they clearly need the aircraft.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3491
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:23 pm

marcelh wrote:
SIVB wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Talks have ended:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/r ... NewsSearch

Ryanair has ended talks with Boeing on a major new order for Boeing 737 jets due to a disagreement over pricing, the Irish airline said on Monday.

My opinion is the pricing window Ryanair was looking for ended with the UA order. Ryanair has enough options for the MAX200, this is a non-issue.

Lightsaber


I think is just as simple as this. Ryanair evaluated the MAX10 and thought it could use the aircraft, but at a certain price that Boeing wasn’t willing to offer. Plenty of options for the MAX8200, so you can’t blame MOL for trying. Just another day in the business.

OTOH, we can all discuss if Ryanair is a garbage product, or mistreats employees, but I won’t accept certain comments that are simply not true. Full disclosure, I am a Ryanair captain, and on any given day I load whatever extra fuel I require for the flight, do a go-around whenever I feel is necessary, or delay a flight to complete a briefing or checklist, and I have never received an email or call questioning my decision. If any, the input we receive from management and training is clear: safety first! Captain’s total discretion to load extra fuel, no blame policy for go arounds, no rush to complete procedures of checklist. With regards to rest, the roster is 5 days on, 4 days off; on blocks alternate between early and late duties, but never within a block. These policies regarding safety and rest are much better than in my previous “legacy” airline.

Everyone is entitled to share their opinion, especially in an Internet forum, but please try to keep it fair and don’t dress opinions as facts.



Here some facts:
https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/25/hotr-ryanairs-oleary-pissed-but-wants-737-max-10/
Interesting part:
” Little known is that the MAX 10 was designed specifically for Ryanair, according to a key ex-Boeing employee on the program at the time. But O’Leary, who loves bargain-basement pricing and to kick a dog when it’s down, didn’t place a launch order. With Boeing facing a long recovery because of the 21 months MAX grounding, exacerbated by the pandemic, now’s the time for O’Leary to go shopping. Ryanair, like so many other MAX customers, is owed a lot of handholding and discounts by Boeing.”


The MAX10 will come to Ryanair sooner or later, but only a bit less cheap. IMHO they need the plane for further expansion. With the MAX8-200 Ryanair is already adding capacity without adding flights and the MAX10 will be the next step.


Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that history. IMO, the deal will come together. Boeing must be optimistic about sales and probably doesn’t want to oversell given it has a big ramp up (suppliers have to ramp up too). As noted, Ryanair needs these aircraft to expand, and there is no doubt Ryanair wants to aggressively expand - it has some flexibility in keeping 738s instead of retiring them, but it needs new aircraft. I just don’t see Ryanair going with another aircraft. Ultimately, the parties will agree on a price (probably within the next year), but the timing wasn’t right.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6576
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:33 pm

Has this ever happened before?

A very public spat between the manufacturer and airline over negotiations on a price of an aircraft?

Seems very bush league to me. Not professional at all.
 
miegapele
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:38 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Has this ever happened before?

A very public spat between the manufacturer and airline over negotiations on a price of an aircraft?

Seems very bush league to me. Not professional at all.

MOL said "we raped Boeing" after 2002 order, so this mild cuddling to him
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3491
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:48 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Has this ever happened before?

A very public spat between the manufacturer and airline over negotiations on a price of an aircraft?

Seems very bush league to me. Not professional at all.


Literally all the time.
 
irelayer
Posts: 1136
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:19 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
jomur wrote:
So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..


Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.

Airbus won’t answer Ryanair. Ryanair did Airbus dirty a few years back if I recall correctly. Something along the lines of the deal was pretty much ready to go and then Ryanair did a last minute with Boeing and that was it.

Also Airbus don’t need the business


That's a fairly ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. If you own a business and you have this mentality, you are inevitably going to go out of business at some point. Airbus is a corporation, they sell things, they like money, and they most definitely NEED the business. They can't afford to not sell things, unless it isn't profitable for them.

Maybe you should have said "Ryanair's business is not worth it to Airbus at the present moment"

I hope the Airbus execs don't have this much hubris.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1763
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that history. IMO, the deal will come together. Boeing must be optimistic about sales and probably doesn’t want to oversell given it has a big ramp up (suppliers have to ramp up too). As noted, Ryanair needs these aircraft to expand, and there is no doubt Ryanair wants to aggressively expand - it has some flexibility in keeping 738s instead of retiring them, but it needs new aircraft. I just don’t see Ryanair going with another aircraft. Ultimately, the parties will agree on a price (probably within the next year), but the timing wasn’t right.

A significant component of the suite of MAX compensation credits erode over time. Some customers will be seeking to flex their buying power, looking for 100% credits plus more. If the aircraft are needed, a deal will be concluded soon.
 
Opus99
Topic Author
Posts: 2675
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Ryanair Wants to Close deal for 100+ MAX10s by Year-end

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:32 pm

irelayer wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:

Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.

Airbus won’t answer Ryanair. Ryanair did Airbus dirty a few years back if I recall correctly. Something along the lines of the deal was pretty much ready to go and then Ryanair did a last minute with Boeing and that was it.

Also Airbus don’t need the business


That's a fairly ridiculous statement, I'm sorry. If you own a business and you have this mentality, you are inevitably going to go out of business at some point. Airbus is a corporation, they sell things, they like money, and they most definitely NEED the business. They can't afford to not sell things, unless it isn't profitable for them.

Maybe you should have said "Ryanair's business is not worth it to Airbus at the present moment"

I hope the Airbus execs don't have this much hubris.

It’s not ridiculous. Airbus does not need Ryanair’s business though especially when you look at the comparable which is sold out for many years

If Ryanair were looking into an A220 then you could say yes Airbus would Ryanair business there.

Airbus would be even better with Ryanair business obviously but they do not need it.

And they know they don’t need it because that’s exactly how they currently think as their COO says he can sell planes in his sleep but he just doesn’t need to

“salesman in me would like to have more airplanes to sell and I could sell them with my eyes closed right now, I just don’t have to. So the Boeing situation you have to expect they will do what they have to do to get rid of planes. To finish their garage sale, and then a certain degree of stability will come back into the market.“

https://airinsight.com/in-conversation- ... n-scherer/
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6576
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:46 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Has this ever happened before?

A very public spat between the manufacturer and airline over negotiations on a price of an aircraft?

Seems very bush league to me. Not professional at all.


Literally all the time.



I have been following aviation since the late 90s…I have never seen press releases hitting CNBC and major news outlets with a dispute between an airline and boeing over pricing.

So what is your definition of all the time?

Your post almost seems flagrantly false
 
MCTSET
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:46 pm

Surely Ryanair need the MAX 10. They are going into a future of more slot restricted airports with only room to grow is to up gauge aircraft, especially when their competitors in easyJet and especially wizz who are cramming 239 seats into their tubes.

W6 and FR are very close in terms of unit cost I always assumed the 321 and especially the NEO are giving them a good cost advantage I don’t see how FR would accept having a competitor with a lower unit cost than FR.

The order is coming just a matter of time.
 
2175301
Posts: 2229
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Has this ever happened before?

A very public spat between the manufacturer and airline over negotiations on a price of an aircraft?

Seems very bush league to me. Not professional at all.


This is essentially the reason Airbus is not chasing orders or willing to cut major deals from Ryanair...
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:44 am

MCTSET wrote:
Surely Ryanair need the MAX 10.


Do they though? The MAX10 does not have the capability the 321s do, both for capacity and performance. The only operational advantage for the 10 is that FR already uses the 8 and can save a nickel here and there on crew costs and some MX items. But even that edge goes away if FR get enough 321s online.

The 321s are more expensive and will take longer to deliver. But, MOL is right to take BCA to task over pricing. The MAX10 is a better choice only if FR can get better delivery times and much lower acquisition cost. If BCA insists on pricing themselves out of the market with an inferior product, that is their problem, not FR's.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5940
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: Ryanair ends jet order talks with Boeing amid price dispute

Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:51 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
The 321s are more expensive and will take longer to deliver. But, MOL is right to take BCA to task over pricing. The MAX10 is a better choice only if FR can get better delivery times and much lower acquisition cost. If BCA insists on pricing themselves out of the market with an inferior product, that is their problem, not FR's.


That may be true, but then again we don't know how aggressive Ryanair was with their offer. They certainly tend to be, especially when they smell blood...

There is no indication that Boeing is unrealistic with prices. In fact, when it comes to the MAX, I'm pretty sure they are quite competitive and motivated to sell. My opinion here is that FR was trying to get Boeing to sell at a loss, or something so ridiculously low that there was simply no point in Boeing even manufacturing these frames.

It's standard practice for FR to walk in a negotiation room like they're the only one in the World buying airplanes, but these days I just can't understand their strategy...
Orders for 100+ narrowbodies are not uncommon anymore, and as much as Boeing would like to sell the MAX10, they might just as well sell any other variant of the same plane instead, which will be produced on the same line, at a higher profit per frame. On the other side, Airbus has no incentive to lower prices at all on the NEO, much less the 321, and they seem to have little patience for Ryanair at the moment.

What's FR's leverage here?
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