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ABpositive wrote:Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.
jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
lesfalls wrote:If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.
lesfalls wrote:ABpositive wrote:Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.
If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.
VMCA787 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
VMCA787 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
TexasAirCorp wrote:lesfalls wrote:ABpositive wrote:Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.
If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.
FR is already 'Europe's airline that everyone flies'. Corporate flying is practically dead. The future is high-volume, low-frequency service, hence why the MAX 10 is a good fit.
Opus99 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Probably why Ryanair keeps saying that they’re not there on price yet. But they will get there
GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
REDHL wrote:GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
lesfalls wrote:ABpositive wrote:Yet another great timing by Ryanair to set itself up for another couple of decades of domination over European skies. I do wonder though if they need to start looking at expansion markets or if they will change slightly their business model. The reduction of subsidies to the aviation industry and restriction on short-haul routes pose new challenges, especially to LCC industry.
If they are looking to become Europes next airline that everyone flies they need scale. They need to fly MAD-BRU 3x a day to enable the connectivity that legacies promote for corporate. Thats what FR is missing as they have the leisure done this is only the next step needed to be done to have almost a complete monopoly.
REDHL wrote:GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
a320fan wrote:With Wizz really ramping up the A321 fleet, and Easy also bringing on 321s the MAX 10 is needed at FR to stay competitive with its peers on casm. I’m surprised they haven’t ordered a bunch already.
JeremyXWB wrote:REDHL wrote:GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
So does this mean that Lauda Europe will eventually transition to an all-737 fleet?
PatrickZ80 wrote:VMCA787 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
Knowing Ryanair, they'd probably have the staff pay for their own training costs.
Switching from all-Boeing to all-Airbus is not unheard of, EasyJet has done this in the past. Remember they used to be all-Boeing as well until Airbus offered them a better deal. After losing EasyJet, I can't imagine Boeing wants to lose Ryanair as well.
JeremyXWB wrote:REDHL wrote:GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
Coincidentally on that matter, Ryanair Holdings announced that it will be gradually phasing out the A320s in favor of an all-Boeing fleet. The process is expected to begin in the winter of 2022.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
So does this mean that Lauda Europe will eventually transition to an all-737 fleet?
GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe). Ryanair is a not an all-Boeing company and hasn't been for over 2 years.
Lauda Europe (~30 A320s) and Malta Air (~125 737s) are both based in Malta and are both subsidiaries of Ryanair Holdings. Malta Air will be taking new MAXs direct from Boeing.
lightsaber wrote:We can agree on that. This is a brutal price negotiation. That takes months. Both sides hope the other side flinches first. Sometimes there are side negotiations.
I suspect this order will happen. FR could switch, nut unlikely.
VMCA787 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
jomur wrote:But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..
kaitak wrote:jomur wrote:But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..
That's not quite correct. France is banning s/h domestic flights that can be operated by a train in less than 2h30. That still leave a lot of France which can still be served by air.
I am surprised that they will be waiting until 2026 to get these aircraft, but I guess, in the current environment, they're not in a hurry to add larger capacity aircraft (the Max 8200 will seat 197, not a lot more than the -800s; the -10 should seat about 230.)
B777LRF wrote:VMCA787 wrote:jomur wrote:So why would Boeing even give them a discount as they know Ryanair want their aircraft and not Airbus? I certainly would not. Could shoot Ryanair in the foot here..
Don't be so sure. Airbus can cut some pretty amazing deals and if Airbus really wanted to make a deal with FR, they could. It would have to cover the training costs though and that is the real fly in the ointment.
Airbus have been burned too many times by Ryanair. They're welcome to request an offer, but are likely to be given a one-pager with the list prices.
kaitak wrote:jomur wrote:But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..
That's not quite correct. France is banning s/h domestic flights that can be operated by a train in less than 2h30. That still leave a lot of France which can still be served by air.
I am surprised that they will be waiting until 2026 to get these aircraft, but I guess, in the current environment, they're not in a hurry to add larger capacity aircraft (the Max 8200 will seat 197, not a lot more than the -800s; the -10 should seat about 230.)
LifelinerOne wrote:Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.
Cheers!
jomur wrote:But with France wanting to ban short flights, which I can see being implemented somewhere in Europe will Ryanair need all those aircraft in the future? They might have no where to fly them to..
Opus99 wrote:LifelinerOne wrote:Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.
Cheers!
Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding
VMCA787 wrote:Looks like we now know what MOL thinks of the 320 family.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... tire-a320s
GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe).
Noshow wrote:Does "Lauda Europe" instead of just "Lauda" tell us that there will be another Lauda brand? Maybe for their long planned long range flights?
LifelinerOne wrote:Opus99 wrote:LifelinerOne wrote:Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.
Cheers!
Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding
I think you missed quite a bit in the earnings call, where O'Leary clearly wasn't as positive as you are trying to reflect it. Ryanair said this in their earning call (which was 17 May, just 8 days ago):
“We are now being told the first delivery will be in late May. I am not sure we necessarily believe that,” O’Leary said in a pre-recorded presentation following the release of the company’s full-year results. “As the management team in Seattle continues to mismanage that process I think there is a real risk we might not see any of these aircraft in advance of summer 2021,” O’Leary said.
(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryan ... AKCN2CY0BL)
Previously they said they wouldn't want to onboard the new type during the busy summer season that starts in June. In February, before the pause, the airline said it expected 8 MAXs in April and 8 in May and would utilise these during summer.
(https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-03-24/)
With deliveries starting 26 May, the airline will not be able to absorp the MAXs before June, which screws up their summer planning and that's why they are pissed off.
So, yes, I fully expect Ryanair to use this latest delay and cock-up of Boeing to negotiate a nice price for its intended MAX10-order. I would have done the same. But, I would also haven't burned my relation with Airbus as O'Leary did and asked Airbus about a nice quote for 100 A321neo. Enough is enough. But factoring in these latest delays and the probable compensation, the MAX10-order will probably have an unbeatable low price (I even expect it to be almost a loss-making order for Boeing).
Cheers!
MIflyer12 wrote:GCT64 wrote:People seem to forget that Ryanair (the parent corporation of Ryanair, Malta Air, Lauda Europe etc.) already operates almost 30 A320s (at Lauda Europe).
Just thirty in a fleet of ~450 (and acquired by acquisition, not Ryanair order) is simply incidental.
LifelinerOne wrote:Opus99 wrote:LifelinerOne wrote:Well, the negotiations will also definitely be about compensating the latest delay in MAX-deliveries. Ryanair was very upset with the latest delivery-stop (due to the electrical wiring thing), which resulted in Ryanair not receiving the expected number of MAXs for this summer. The airline now said it expects its first MAX after summer. Previously, they were counting on having 16 in operation by June and 80 by year-end.
Boeing says May 26 for delivery. So far I see no reason why. O’Leary also said that in a pre recorded version of their earnings call. Probably when they were deep in the fix. They delivered 3 MAXs yesterday. So I don’t see why Ryanair’s will take till after the summer. When they were next after the grounding
I think you missed quite a bit in the earnings call, where O'Leary clearly wasn't as positive as you are trying to reflect it. Ryanair said this in their earning call (which was 17 May, just 8 days ago):
“We are now being told the first delivery will be in late May. I am not sure we necessarily believe that,” O’Leary said in a pre-recorded presentation following the release of the company’s full-year results. “As the management team in Seattle continues to mismanage that process I think there is a real risk we might not see any of these aircraft in advance of summer 2021,” O’Leary said.
Jetport wrote:So according to LifelinerOne and many others on ANet, Boeing is about to make yet another low/no/negative margin deal. Even before the Max fiasco and COVID many on ANet seemed to believe that Boeing was selling at very low/no/negative margins every time they closed a large order. Now many including LifelinerOne believe that post Max/COVID Boeing is even more desperate and will sell everything to everyone at low/no/negative margins. I wonder how in the world Boing was much more profitable than Airbus pre-Max/COVID? I also wonder why Boing stock isn't at zero, because based on what I read on Anet Boeing is locking in losses for many years to come and will likely never be profitable again.