Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26711
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:45 pm

keesje wrote:
If Airbus would develop an A310 sized wingbox, wing, engine, tail, new cockpit on the A330, that would be a major change, probably a new type certificate. No fooling around arguing it is a A330 variant really. EASA is build out of many offices, countries each having their own traditions and ideas. No centralized budgets. Putting pressure on them to allow exemptions, "streamline" processes is much harder.

Since this is the Airbus lightweight wing thread, it'll be interesting to see how adding a new wing made of a different material than the rest of the family with folding wing tips and a stretched fuselage perhaps with improved engines will be treated at some point after 2023.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
There is the main difference between the 737 and the A320 the FBW.

Yet FAA and EASA are doing a deep dive on the 777X which is Boeing's third generation of FBW. I don't think having FBW will grant any degree of regulatory immunity to what we refer to as A322.

...

I agree. In this regard Airbus will benefit from the regulators having a new understanding of what they will or will not accept when adding new members to a type certificate.


IMHO it is to a degree a matter of your initial framework and its introduced visions.

Are you later on filling niches of premeditated functions or
are you layering on functionality never envisioned in the initial concept?

compare Motorola's 68k architecture vs intels "not one bit of competition" design.

in the end Intel had to hollow out its x86 programming interface and insert a RISC machine
that emulates the outer personality.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 920
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:35 pm

keesje wrote:
Grandfathering of design and requirements was a kind of banned 20 years ago and then reinvented 10 years ago when the A320NEO needed to be stopped and 777 to be protected after the Dreamliner moonshot.

Using the changed product rule over longer periods of time, e.g. 30-50 years, cascading exemptions, special rules and major changes as small ones, based on doctored safety track records (blame pilots, arm wrenching authorities) will lead to the situation Boeing / FAA are in today.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ew-alerts/

Not fully certifying the 737MAX as a new aircraft makes sense, it's a re-engining. Certifying the 777x as a 777 derivative was IMO a bridge to far. New wings, engines, landing gears, fuselage, cockpit, tail, systems= a new aircraft. FAA allowing certifying as an enormous pile of interacting modifications was highly surprising from the start, to people knowing anything about aircraft certification. That's why the 777-9 is delayed for years. You can't deny, divert that away.

2014:
The U.S. regulator has shown "a surprising amount of flexibility" allowing significantly updated aircraft with new engines and wings to be grandfathered, said Hans Weber, president of Tecop International Inc., a consulting firm that specializes in aircraft certification.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 3968514184

We now know Boeing had congress and FAA in the pocket using congress to push through "streamlining" and delegated certification via FAA budget re-authorizations.

If Airbus would develop an A310 sized wingbox, wing, engine, tail, new cockpit on the A330, that would be a major change, probably a new type certificate. No fooling around arguing it is a A330 variant really. EASA is build out of many offices, countries each having their own traditions and ideas. No centralized budgets. Putting pressure on them to allow exemptions, "streamline" processes is much harder.


Airbus is an expert in the changed product rule. I’d fully expect them to take advantage of it if they put a redesigned wing in an existing airplane
 
Vicenza
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
Interesting. One prominent EU-based poster here made this into a grandfathering problem time and time again, but now that big blocks of new functionality are being added to the A320 line that line of reasoning has gone quiet. As above, I think one outcome of the current deep dives will be clearer guidance on how new variants are being added to type certificates that will be applied by both FAA and EASA.


Of what relevance is where a member is based or why, rather interestingly, do you mention it so specifically? That 'line of reasoning' you again specifically (but yet very vaguely mention) may very well have gone quite if circumstances surround it have changed. I'm just somewhat curious what you are driving at but yet, in my opinion, are deliberately trying to avoid being seen saying it .
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:29 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Grandfathering of design and requirements was a kind of banned 20 years ago and then reinvented 10 years ago when the A320NEO needed to be stopped and 777 to be protected after the Dreamliner moonshot.

Using the changed product rule over longer periods of time, e.g. 30-50 years, cascading exemptions, special rules and major changes as small ones, based on doctored safety track records (blame pilots, arm wrenching authorities) will lead to the situation Boeing / FAA are in today.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ew-alerts/

Not fully certifying the 737MAX as a new aircraft makes sense, it's a re-engining. Certifying the 777x as a 777 derivative was IMO a bridge to far. New wings, engines, landing gears, fuselage, cockpit, tail, systems= a new aircraft. FAA allowing certifying as an enormous pile of interacting modifications was highly surprising from the start, to people knowing anything about aircraft certification. That's why the 777-9 is delayed for years. You can't deny, divert that away.

2014:
The U.S. regulator has shown "a surprising amount of flexibility" allowing significantly updated aircraft with new engines and wings to be grandfathered, said Hans Weber, president of Tecop International Inc., a consulting firm that specializes in aircraft certification.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 3968514184

We now know Boeing had congress and FAA in the pocket using congress to push through "streamlining" and delegated certification via FAA budget re-authorizations.

If Airbus would develop an A310 sized wingbox, wing, engine, tail, new cockpit on the A330, that would be a major change, probably a new type certificate. No fooling around arguing it is a A330 variant really. EASA is build out of many offices, countries each having their own traditions and ideas. No centralized budgets. Putting pressure on them to allow exemptions, "streamline" processes is much harder.


Airbus is an expert in the changed product rule. I’d fully expect them to take advantage of it if they put a redesigned wing in an existing airplane


Airbus has also not been as stressed as Boeing about keeping the same type rating if they thought changes were necessary.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 920
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:36 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Grandfathering of design and requirements was a kind of banned 20 years ago and then reinvented 10 years ago when the A320NEO needed to be stopped and 777 to be protected after the Dreamliner moonshot.

Using the changed product rule over longer periods of time, e.g. 30-50 years, cascading exemptions, special rules and major changes as small ones, based on doctored safety track records (blame pilots, arm wrenching authorities) will lead to the situation Boeing / FAA are in today.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ew-alerts/

Not fully certifying the 737MAX as a new aircraft makes sense, it's a re-engining. Certifying the 777x as a 777 derivative was IMO a bridge to far. New wings, engines, landing gears, fuselage, cockpit, tail, systems= a new aircraft. FAA allowing certifying as an enormous pile of interacting modifications was highly surprising from the start, to people knowing anything about aircraft certification. That's why the 777-9 is delayed for years. You can't deny, divert that away.

2014:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 3968514184

We now know Boeing had congress and FAA in the pocket using congress to push through "streamlining" and delegated certification via FAA budget re-authorizations.

If Airbus would develop an A310 sized wingbox, wing, engine, tail, new cockpit on the A330, that would be a major change, probably a new type certificate. No fooling around arguing it is a A330 variant really. EASA is build out of many offices, countries each having their own traditions and ideas. No centralized budgets. Putting pressure on them to allow exemptions, "streamline" processes is much harder.


Airbus is an expert in the changed product rule. I’d fully expect them to take advantage of it if they put a redesigned wing in an existing airplane


Airbus has also not been as stressed as Boeing about keeping the same type rating if they thought changes were necessary.


An amended type certificate is not the same as the same type rating. 757 and 767 as well as A330 and A350 have the same type ratings, but all have different type certificates for example. The changed product rule for a new wing is more likely to impact a type certificate than type rating
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12193
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:04 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

Airbus is an expert in the changed product rule. I’d fully expect them to take advantage of it if they put a redesigned wing in an existing airplane


Airbus has also not been as stressed as Boeing about keeping the same type rating if they thought changes were necessary.


An amended type certificate is not the same as the same type rating. 757 and 767 as well as A330 and A350 have the same type ratings, but all have different type certificates for example. The changed product rule for a new wing is more likely to impact a type certificate than type rating

Also I’m not sure where the believe that Airbus is not “as stressed” about keeping the same type rating is coming from. There is a reason they strove for the A350 to have a common type rating as the A330. And why the A320/A330neo have the same type ratings as their older ceo counterparts. And they will certainly want a rewinged A321/A322 to share the same type rating as the A320ceo/neo for the exact same reasons Boeing wanted to keep the Max type rating the same.

Now with Airbus’s full FBW lineup is may be easier to keep type ratings the same, so less stressed in that sense, but nothing Airbus has ever done has suggest they will sacrifice type ratings for necessary changes. Changes are considered with that impact in mind.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14613
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:13 pm

Polot wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Airbus has also not been as stressed as Boeing about keeping the same type rating if they thought changes were necessary.


An amended type certificate is not the same as the same type rating. 757 and 767 as well as A330 and A350 have the same type ratings, but all have different type certificates for example. The changed product rule for a new wing is more likely to impact a type certificate than type rating

Also I’m not sure where the believe that Airbus is not “as stressed” about keeping the same type rating is coming from. There is a reason they strove for the A350 to have a common type rating as the A330. And why the A320/A330neo have the same type ratings as their older ceo counterparts. And they will certainly want a rewinged A321/A322 to share the same type rating as the A320ceo/neo for the exact same reasons Boeing wanted to keep the Max type rating the same.

Now with Airbus’s full FBW lineup is may be easier to keep type ratings the same, so less stressed in that sense, but nothing Airbus has ever done has suggest they will sacrifice type ratings for necessary changes. Changes are considered with that impact in mind.


It seems you decided to try confuse people mixing type ratings & type certificates, trying to create a generalized perception of both sides handling TC the same way.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12193
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:25 pm

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

An amended type certificate is not the same as the same type rating. 757 and 767 as well as A330 and A350 have the same type ratings, but all have different type certificates for example. The changed product rule for a new wing is more likely to impact a type certificate than type rating

Also I’m not sure where the believe that Airbus is not “as stressed” about keeping the same type rating is coming from. There is a reason they strove for the A350 to have a common type rating as the A330. And why the A320/A330neo have the same type ratings as their older ceo counterparts. And they will certainly want a rewinged A321/A322 to share the same type rating as the A320ceo/neo for the exact same reasons Boeing wanted to keep the Max type rating the same.

Now with Airbus’s full FBW lineup is may be easier to keep type ratings the same, so less stressed in that sense, but nothing Airbus has ever done has suggest they will sacrifice type ratings for necessary changes. Changes are considered with that impact in mind.


It seems you decided to try confuse people mixing type ratings & type certificates, trying to create a generalized perception of both sides handling TC the same way.

I’m responding to what mjoelnir was saying. As to Type certificates- that comes down to what the regulator allows them to get away with. Airbus certainly had no issue using the A320/A330ceo type certificates for the neo’s. The A345/A346 are on the exact same type certificate as the A342/A343. The Belugas are on the same type certificates as the regular A300 and A330. The A310 is on the same certificate as the A300, despite the changes, including to the wing, and systems improvements from initial A300s (later backported to create A300-600). If EASA gives Airbus the green light Airbus will be placing a rewinged A320 on the same type certificate as the other A320s, they would be stupid not to.

Nothing I said changes. Airbus will study impact on certification before launching any changes as part of business case. For the A321/A322 they would probably go ahead even if they need a new type certificate because of potential size of market. If they want to make alterations on the A350 that would require a new certificate? Those plans would probably be ditched or scaled back to work with an amended certificate.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 920
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:31 am

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

An amended type certificate is not the same as the same type rating. 757 and 767 as well as A330 and A350 have the same type ratings, but all have different type certificates for example. The changed product rule for a new wing is more likely to impact a type certificate than type rating

Also I’m not sure where the believe that Airbus is not “as stressed” about keeping the same type rating is coming from. There is a reason they strove for the A350 to have a common type rating as the A330. And why the A320/A330neo have the same type ratings as their older ceo counterparts. And they will certainly want a rewinged A321/A322 to share the same type rating as the A320ceo/neo for the exact same reasons Boeing wanted to keep the Max type rating the same.

Now with Airbus’s full FBW lineup is may be easier to keep type ratings the same, so less stressed in that sense, but nothing Airbus has ever done has suggest they will sacrifice type ratings for necessary changes. Changes are considered with that impact in mind.


It seems you decided to try confuse people mixing type ratings & type certificates, trying to create a generalized perception of both sides handling TC the same way.


You had a meandering post that I think essentially concluded that EASA is stricter regarding the changed product rule than the FAA. I’m not sure how you can actually back that up in any real way shape or form, so I was commenting that Airbus uses the changed product rule too. Mjoelnir then brought up type ratings, which are entirely different than type certificates and the changed product rule, so I think a few people are trying to explain how the real world actually works.

Here are the special conditions for the A320

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... .05.28.pdf

Given how many new and novel special conditions existed for the A320 certification, there are bound to be liberal use of the changed product rule

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... s_48_0.pdf

A read through the A320 type certificate will show how often acceptable (or alternate) methods of compliance are used.

Example


BACKGROUND
For A319-17xN/-15xN and A319NEO CJ models, in the frame of the Change Product Rule process, it became apparent that an improvement in the wording of the existing Special Condition (SC) A-5003 was needed in order to clarify the details of the upset manoeuvre for the definition of the design dive speed VD. It aims at covering the intent of NPA 2011-09, incorporated in CS25 Amdt 13, based on the discussions on comment §74 of CRD 2011-09, dated 16 Nov 2012.
The Certification Review Item (CRI) A-5003 was originally developed at the time of the A318 model type certification and then progressively extended to all the members of the Single Aisle family. Since then, Airbus introduced no design change of the flight controls and of the high speed protection system that would invalidate the assumptions for which the SC A-5003 was developed.
The scope of the present CRI is therefore to:
• replace the CRI A-5003 for the Airbus A319-17xN/-15xN and A319NEO CJ models /
design change;
• introduce the new wording amending JAR 25.335 [b(1)(i)];
• Coherently present the same remaining information originally introduced in the Special
Condition and Interpretative Material sections of the CRI A-5003.
SPECIAL CONDITION
The JAR 25.335(b) shall be amended as follows:
(b) Design Dive speed, VD. VD must be selected so that VC/MC is not greater than 0.8 VD/MD, or so that the minimum speed margin between VC/MC and VD/MD is the greater of the following values:
(1) The speed increase above VC/MC resulting from the following manoeuvres:
(i) From an initial condition of stabilized flight at VC/MC, the airplane is upset so as to take up a new flight path 7.5° below the initial path. The control input to initiate the maneuver must be an immediate application of sufficient stick to achieve a reduction of at least 0.5 g load factor before stabilizing at the 7.5° or full forward stick if 0.5 g cannot be achieved. Control application, up to full authority, is then made to try and maintain this new flight path. Twenty seconds after initiating the upset manual recovery is made at a load factor of 1.5 g (0.5 g acceleration increment), or such greater load factor that is automatically applied by the system with the pilot's pitch control neutral.

The speed increase occurring in this maneuver may be calculated, if reliable or conservative aerodynamic data is used. Power as specified in JAR 25.175 [b(1)(iv)] is assumed until recovery is made, at which time power reduction and the use of pilot controlled drag devices may be assumed.
(ii) From a speed below VC/MC, with power to maintain stabilized level flight at this speed the aeroplane is upset so as to accelerate through VC/MC at a flight path 15° below the initial path (or at the steepest nose down attitude that the system will permit with full control authority if less than 15°).
NOTE: Pilots controls may be in neutral position after reaching VC/MC and before recovery is initiated. Recovery may be initiated 3 seconds after operation of high speed, attitude or other alerting system by application of a load factors of 1.5 g (0.5 g acceleration increment), or such greater load factor that is automatically applied by the system with the pilot's pitch control neutral. Power may be reduced simultaneously.
All other means of decelerating the aeroplane, the use of which is authorized up to the highest speed reached in the manoeuvre, may be used. The interval between successive pilot actions must not be less than one second.
(2) The minimum speed margin must be enough to provide for atmospheric variations (such as horizontal gusts, and penetration of jet streams and cold fronts) and for instruments errors and airframe production variations. These factors may be considered on a probability basis. However, the margin at altitude where MC is limited by compressibility effects may not be less than .05 M.




Certifying a new wing won’t be easy, but I wouldn’t bet that getting exemptions from EASA is easier than the FAA without specific examples highlighted in the type certificate data sheet.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8975
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:21 am

VV wrote:
Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?

To avoid the mountains of red tape created by the UK’s disastrous exit from the EU, it may well make sense to build wings inside the customs union. Just one example, Romania built BAC-111s, and wages there are probably half what they are in the UK. Plenty of aerospace expertise in Poland and the Czech Republic too, both have hosted jet fighter production. Plenty of good options if Airbus wanted to make a move.
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:25 am

cedarjet wrote:
VV wrote:
Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?

To avoid the mountains of red tape created by the UK’s disastrous exit from the EU, it may well make sense to build wings inside the customs union. Just one example, Romania built BAC-111s, and wages there are probably half what they are in the UK. Plenty of aerospace expertise in Poland and the Czech Republic too, both have hosted jet fighter production. Plenty of good options if Airbus wanted to make a move.


That's an interesting "if".
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10383
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:54 am

The whole certification debate is pure speculation, There is no indication that they want to hang the wing on the A320 series. Airbus talk about a new platform which probably is a future A320 successor.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:01 pm

seahawk wrote:
The whole certification debate is pure speculation, There is no indication that they want to hang the wing on the A320 series. Airbus talk about a new platform which probably is a future A320 successor.


There have been a lot of news articles about a new composite wing for the A320 series. Just looking at todays news, Reuters is again mentioning a re-wing. This time especially for the A321.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... IKCN2DE0IZ
But it has for years harbored studies codenamed "A321neo-plus-plus" or "A321 Ultimate" with more seats and composite wings to repel any commercial attack. Such an upgrade might cost Airbus some $2-3 billion, but far less than the $15 billion Boeing would spend on a new plane.


Earlier this week Leeham also reported, again, that Airbus is developing a new wing for the A320 series.

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/31/ponti ... us-future/
Airbus seems ready to up the ante by re-winging the A320 series, [...] The “Wing for Tomorrow,” as Airbus calls it, has been in the works for years. It’s a composite wing, designed for a new production process.


And of course Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-boeing

a new lightweight wing could be deployed on an upgraded version of the A320 series, allowing Airbus to harvest more efficiencies from its largest existing single-aisle jets.


A good decade ago, Airbus SE added more fuel-efficient engines to its A320 aircraft family, giving its already bestselling model a dramatic demand boost. Now the European company is seeking to repeat that success, this time with a new set of wingsl
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14613
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:10 pm

It seems an independent consultant mentioning the possibility for the A320 in the Bloomberg article and the writer putting it in a catchy header is all we got. The other articles are reactions on that. Interesting to see how unstoppable such "news" can be.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4185
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:50 am

keesje wrote:
It seems an independent consultant mentioning the possibility for the A320 in the Bloomberg article and the writer putting it in a catchy header is all we got. The other articles are reactions on that. Interesting to see how unstoppable such "news" can be.

Almost a ‘drug like rush’...easy to be in an echo chamber.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10383
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:14 am

Airbus only linked the wing to a new platform and said:

“We think the next new platform will be significantly better than what we do today,” he told Bloomberg on April 29. “We’re really focused on accelerating the path to de-carbonization and to the propulsion system of the future.”
 
Noshow
Posts: 2696
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:20 am

If Airbus wants to seriously go beyond the A321XLR weight a new wing is very likely needed. This is known for years and no surprise.
I agree it is funny how the crowd only jumps on it when a headline gets in their sights. Ant then everybody agrees and has known it forever.
But as we are encouraged to include a link and not our own statements without one this is not surprise either. Linked minds.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:14 am

In regards to the A320 lineup or better single aisle, we should all realize, that Airbus has quite a lot of projects in the drawer to either modernize the A320 family or come with a new frame.

Ready are a CFRP wingbox. The electric rudder will be intotruced. Moving the actuators in regard to the wings from hydraulic to electric or electro hydraulic has been flight tested. There is actual a lot of work done on wings at airbus, partly connected to government institutions. The A340 laminar wing demonstrator. The new CFRP wing production process we are talking about here. Free moving featherlike wingtips tested on model sized demonstrators and in the wind tunnel.
Than there is the electric plane demonstrator on a Avro RJ and a lot more. It is quite a long list of stuff not mentioned here.

In regards to the FBW, the A320 does not operate today on 1988 technologies. The architecture is the same on A320, A330, A380 and A350. The hardware used on new build A320 have been upgraded during the years. Some of the upgrades have been available as a refit. So every advance done on the other families can be backported to the A320 family, at least new frames.. We will see one example now on the XLR, the morphing wing (that is what it is called at Airbus) using the flaps to change the airfoil or camber on the wing during level flight, to increase lift or cut fuel burn.

The point is, that Airbus has huge narrow body backlog, they do not need to introduce anything to lift sales as it is.
The XLR is done IMO to make it more difficult for Boeing to introduce the MOM or 797. Because of that IMO we will see an A321/322 combo with a new wing and other advances.

The area were Airbus could make headway being the number two, is wide bodies, but there the going is tough in regards to the market situation.

Posters here always point out that Airbus has no foot in wide body freighters. There have been three models from Airbus the A300 (170 including conversions) being quite a success and the A310 (82 including conversions) and A330 (38 new) less of a success. As freighters are usually developed from passenger jets, size and capabilities are often predetermined and what fits on the passenger side, do not have to fit on the freight side. The A330 seems to have been both to big and to small for the market, in a middle area few were interested in. But conversions are happening and the number of A330P2F is increasing, with 10 operating by now. Conversion slots are 10 to 12 a year and fully booked through 2022.
I see not reason that Airbus should do worse in wide body freighters than Boeing in the future, if they hit on a size that fits the market at the time it is introduced.
 
Eiszeit
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:00 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The point is, that Airbus has huge narrow body backlog, they do not need to introduce anything to lift sales as it is.
The XLR is done IMO to make it more difficult for Boeing to introduce the MOM or 797. Because of that IMO we will see an A321/322 combo with a new wing and other advances.


IMO the XLR and a possible A322 are not only done to deny Boeing a better place for it's MOM but to extract more value from the same backlog, because that is a real limiting factor.
 
User avatar
Matt6461
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:19 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems an independent consultant mentioning the possibility for the A320 in the Bloomberg article and the writer putting it in a catchy header is all we got. The other articles are reactions on that. Interesting to see how unstoppable such "news" can be.

Almost a ‘drug like rush’...easy to be in an echo chamber.

Fred

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Boeing knows that Airbus could seriously degrade - IMJ likely torpedo - the business case for a cantilever-wing NMA by rewinging and stretching the A321XLR. The physics are obvious: difference between clean-sheet NMA and rewinged XLR is maybe 5% of COC; Airbus could probably get to equal DOC (esp. including incumbency/transition costs) by selling a rewinged XLR at a discount that is cash-flow-positive for Airbus on a ~4bn investment. I would guess Airbus also believes its cash flow position is better with the status quo than with a reactive rewing.

So its optimal strategy is a game-theory "commitment" strategy: make current investments such that, if Boeing acts on NMA, Airbus has a cheap path to rewing that is rational (given ongoing commitment of investment) and predictable, and that predictably nullifies the value proposition in Boeing's possible NMA investment.

Airbus wants the status quo; it knows Boeing want to upset it; it knows that it must make public commitments to an NMA response to deter Boeing from upsetting the status quo. To defend the status quo, Airbus must invest in preconditions to responding to its overthrow.

On that strategic picture, it is in Airbus' interests to publicize its readiness to respond to NMA. It is probably also in Airbus' interests to allow a consultant to make these disclosures, as she has a bit of "independence." It would be very unsophisticated to suppose that Airbus' attorneys don't know how to make sure that its consultants don't make these disclosures, should Airbus actually desire them not to do so.

Given the very real benefits of rewinging the A321XLR, I don't expect Boeing can profitably beat it (i.e. recover investment at prevailing private discount rates) with a cantilever-wing monoplane. XLR will have its domain until/unless we see BWB and/or strut-braced wings.

Given relatively small stakes of private investment in Boeing/Airbus and the huge stakes of global travel availability, I find this scenario tragically suboptimal. It is a duopoly holding feasible efficiency gains hostage to the interests of shareholders. Humanity's best hope lies with China and/or Russia putting Airbus/Boeing out of business.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14613
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:13 pm

The A320 wing is at least 3 wings:

- The A318/ A319/ A320 / NEO wing
- The A321/ A321NEO/ A321LR wing
- The new A321XLR wing

The third new wing will probably replace the second.

In my opinion a new wing would have to be more efficient to produce in volumes, have performance advantages. The best combination of those.

The A321/A322 market is relatively small and Airbus already is modifying a bigger more capable XLR wing, wingbox and fuel system for it.

Putting the new XLR wing/ wing box on A320(Plus) would give it weight and payload-range nobody is asking for (5200NM?). Certainly not LCC's and feeder flights.

The A318 and A319 seem out of focus. A new A320NEO, A320Plus, lighter more efficient wing would be more likely than a bigger wing. A range of 3000NM for the biggest 200 seat A320Plus would be more than enough. Because airlines can use the more suitable A321/22 versions if they need more range.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:05 am

Matt6461 wrote:
[...]
Given the very real benefits of rewinging the A321XLR, I don't expect Boeing can profitably beat it (i.e. recover investment at prevailing private discount rates) with a cantilever-wing monoplane. XLR will have its domain until/unless we see BWB and/or strut-braced wings.
[...]

More aggressive wing morphing than what Airbus is doing with flaps. Schedule airfoil camber and thickness with flight condition and aircraft configuration and integrate it with the FBW control laws. They contributed the Mission Adaptive Wing (MAW) to AFTI https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/multimedia/imagegallery/F-111AFTI/EC85-33205-07.html although that was in the 80's and all those who worked on the program are probably retired by now.

And of course Airbus can probably match any morphing advances.
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 535
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:27 pm

VV wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
VV wrote:
Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?

To avoid the mountains of red tape created by the UK’s disastrous exit from the EU, it may well make sense to build wings inside the customs union. Just one example, Romania built BAC-111s, and wages there are probably half what they are in the UK. Plenty of aerospace expertise in Poland and the Czech Republic too, both have hosted jet fighter production. Plenty of good options if Airbus wanted to make a move.


That's an interesting "if".


It is.
You must admit the scenario is far from crazy, though.

Without looking east I know an historic state with Airbus shares, inside EU single market, with low cost base, available plant and workforce, and even experience in aerosurface assembly within Airbus environment and processes. Spain wants more workshare and will do what it needs to get it.
The design could remain in UK, probably.

To me : an A320 New Wing Option, A321 sized + a stretch is the right move to take a sizeable part of the famous MoM market (*) right away wether Boeing commits to something or not. There is no "if", just a "when".

(*) juicy if it is as big as some pretends
 
sirtoby
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:56 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:38 pm

reidar76 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The whole certification debate is pure speculation, There is no indication that they want to hang the wing on the A320 series. Airbus talk about a new platform which probably is a future A320 successor.


I this article It looks like at least 8 years ago Airbus thought about a new wing for the A320 family:
https://t.co/gd4N9QpUiX?amp=1

So why should that have changed? A technology program is always running for some years and should therefore be open for the "final destination", i.e.application, so the new wing could be aimed for a new platform but also (still) for the A320 if Airbus decides to do so.
 
OEMInsider
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Airbus launches extra high performance wing demonstrator to fortify decarbonisation ambition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:36 am

Jon Ostrower is reporting that Airbus is developing a business jet-sized demonstrator for new technologies. The article is behind a paywall - does anyone have the full access to the full version?

Since mid-2020, Airbus has been secretly working on an ambitious new demonstrator program called X-Wing centered on advanced flight control technologies. It has major implications for its future airplanes and the unceasing competition with Boeing.

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/1438532130515021826
 
Noshow
Posts: 2696
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:39 am

Is X-Wing the same as Vahana?
The picture shows another movable wingtip model.
 
tomcat
Posts: 768
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:45 am

I'm not sure what's so secret about it, here is a one year old press release from Airbus itself about the Albatros:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/freely-flapping-wing-tips-took-a-leap-forward.html

And I believe that there are older videos on Youtube.
 
OEMInsider
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:47 pm

tomcat wrote:
I'm not sure what's so secret about it, here is a one year old press release from Airbus itself about the Albatros:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/freely-flapping-wing-tips-took-a-leap-forward.html

And I believe that there are older videos on Youtube.


But that was a small model (like an RC plane). This article talks about trying to "completely re-wing a Cessna business jet".

Sounds to me like they're taking the same tech to the next level.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:25 pm

Very interesting.

Those tips are beginning to be big enough to help with yaw control.

The "Bird of prey" has no vertical tail: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2019/07/airbus-conceptual-airliner-to-inspire-new-generation-engineers.html.
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:28 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Very interesting.

Those tips are beginning to be big enough to help with yaw control.

The "Bird of prey" has no vertical tail: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2019/07/airbus-conceptual-airliner-to-inspire-new-generation-engineers.html.


Took a quick look at the pictures - intriguing (though I confess I was hoping to see something with a cloaking device).
Will the aerodynamic gain be that significant?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26711
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:40 pm

New reporting from TAC:

“There is a new wing version of the A321,” said Air Lease CEO John Plueger of a new concept he’s seen from Airbus. “So far they haven’t needed it.”

Apparently Airbus has a project called 'X-Wing' where they are re-winging a Cessna bizjet as a technology demonstrator to work on different concepts including folding wingtips. Apprarently they will be giving more info on this in the next week. Apparently this will help them make decisions on what technologies to choose to develop in the 2025 time frame.

Ref: https://twitter.com/theaircurrent/statu ... 0372593668

Ref: https://theaircurrent.com/industry-stra ... r-program/
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:41 pm

Awesome... gives us something fun to pontificate about for 3 more years.

I wonder if any elements of the root wing redesign that was done for XLR were in anticipation of this X-Wing project. Will a significant PIP to the GTF accompany the introduction of this wing? It will be interesting as we learn more details.
 
tomcat
Posts: 768
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:44 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Awesome... gives us something fun to pontificate about for 3 more years.

I wonder if any elements of the root wing redesign that was done for XLR were in anticipation of this X-Wing project. Will a significant PIP to the GTF accompany the introduction of this wing? It will be interesting as we learn more details.


If by root wing you mean the center wingbox, I don't think that it will be retained if a brand new composite outer wing is introduced. I'd say it's rather the RCT added in the XLR that is central to introducing a new wing more suitable (I assume) for longer range flights.
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:54 pm

tomcat wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Awesome... gives us something fun to pontificate about for 3 more years.

I wonder if any elements of the root wing redesign that was done for XLR were in anticipation of this X-Wing project. Will a significant PIP to the GTF accompany the introduction of this wing? It will be interesting as we learn more details.


If by root wing you mean the center wingbox, I don't think that it will be retained if a brand new composite outer wing is introduced. I'd say it's rather the RCT added in the XLR that is central to introducing a new wing more suitable (I assume) for longer range flights.


Yeah, I did mean center wingbox... my bad.... I guess I'm imagining the a re-wing might also imply including a new stretch, which might also imply greater distance... Hence my question if this Wing Box was designed with a 322 stretch and new wing in mind.... I guess that it is anyone's guess and it's too early to know any of that...
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14613
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 am

I think Airbus is focussed on delivering the huge NEO backlog and trippling A220 output rates.

The XLR already proves to be a major development/ disruption of the A320 supply chain and assembly. I think the XLR's fuel system, 101t MTOW modifications, provide the base for a "simple" A322NEO, trading range for capacity maintaing the same MTOW. A 35k lbs GTF/ LEAP would be welcome, finally..

The X Wing seems more an intermediate result of ongoing research and development programs. I think NEO success & MAX troubles pushed out A320 replacement.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:15 am

keesje wrote:
I think Airbus is focussed on delivering the huge NEO backlog and trippling A220 output rates.

The XLR already proves to be a major development/ disruption of the A320 supply chain and assembly. I think the XLR's fuel system, 101t MTOW modifications, provide the base for a "simple" A322NEO, trading range for capacity maintaing the same MTOW. A 35k lbs GTF/ LEAP would be welcome, finally..

The X Wing seems more an intermediate result of ongoing research and development programs. I think NEO success & MAX troubles pushed out A320 replacement.


The implementation of X wing seems commercially unwise as it brings in extra cost and complexity while it brings in little extra sales. Airbus is already sold out. But they can more money from the current backlog, similar to XLR. A lot of them are conversions which makes each slot more valuable. Same will happen with the new wing and the A322, it will increase margin significantly.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7439
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:47 am

keesje wrote:
I think Airbus is focussed on delivering the huge NEO backlog and trippling A220 output rates.

The XLR already proves to be a major development/ disruption of the A320 supply chain and assembly. I think the XLR's fuel system, 101t MTOW modifications, provide the base for a "simple" A322NEO, trading range for capacity maintaing the same MTOW. A 35k lbs GTF/ LEAP would be welcome, finally...


You should either be providing evidence, or stating your comment as a belief or opinion when making statements like this, to be honest.

Rgds
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14613
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 am

astuteman wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think Airbus is focussed on delivering the huge NEO backlog and trippling A220 output rates.

The XLR already proves to be a major development/ disruption of the A320 supply chain and assembly. I think the XLR's fuel system, 101t MTOW modifications, provide the base for a "simple" A322NEO, trading range for capacity maintaing the same MTOW. A 35k lbs GTF/ LEAP would be welcome, finally...


You should either be providing evidence, or stating your comment as a belief or opinion when making statements like this, to be honest.

Rgds


The integration of the RCT represented a significant challenge for the teams to ensure the smooth integration of the new rear centre tank and its new fuel systems.
These major sections are currently assembled on the new dedicated production line in Hangar 260 - a pilot line deliberately separated from the rest of the A320 line, to be able to start the ramp-up of the A321XLR’s fuselages without impacting Hamburg’s existing single-aisle production.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... elage.html

While all major sections of the A321XLR contain significant design changes versus the current A321neo / A321LR aircraft, the XLR’s centre and aft fuselage deviate the furthest because of the integral RCT and associated fuel management systems. In a bid to avoid any disruption to the existing single-aisle production rates, a separate structure pilot line dedicated to assembling the A321XLR’s centre and rear fuselage sections has been built at the Hamburg Finkenwerder production facility in Germany. .
https://www.aerospacetestinginternation ... 21xlr.html

+ I wrote "I think" twice. But can find sources also quickly if that helps ;)
 
JoergAtADN
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:50 pm

Aviation-Week has more details about this wing: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips
 
JonesNL
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:58 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
Aviation-Week has more details about this wing: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips


Wow, they are aiming at an wingspan of 52 meters. That would mean a folding wingtip of 8 meters on each side to fit in the 36 meter C gates :o
 
JibberJim
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:02 pm

JonesNL wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
Aviation-Week has more details about this wing: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips


Wow, they are aiming at an wingspan of 52 meters. That would mean a folding wingtip of 8 meters on each side to fit in the 36 meter C gates :o


As it's an X wing, maybe it's two 26 meter wings...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:01 pm

JonesNL wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
Aviation-Week has more details about this wing: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips


Wow, they are aiming at an wingspan of 52 meters. That would mean a folding wingtip of 8 meters on each side to fit in the 36 meter C gates :o


Folded up that should put the wingtips right where the vertical stabilizer ends.
Probably takes a while for passengers to get used to that kind of bendy wing..

Best regards
Thomas
 
JonesNL
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
Aviation-Week has more details about this wing: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips


Wow, they are aiming at an wingspan of 52 meters. That would mean a folding wingtip of 8 meters on each side to fit in the 36 meter C gates :o


Folded up that should put the wingtips right where the vertical stabilizer ends.
Probably takes a while for passengers to get used to that kind of bendy wing..

Best regards
Thomas

Now you mention it, most passengers will shit their pants when they see the wings flapping around...
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:22 pm

So when would Airbus launch a re wing? They have a decade of orders on the books.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:25 pm

Interesting concept, but I wander what kind of maintenance regime would that hinge allowing flapping face? That is a lot stress on the hinge, though engineering of metals is pretty mind blowing. .
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26711
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:11 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
tomcat wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Awesome... gives us something fun to pontificate about for 3 more years.

I wonder if any elements of the root wing redesign that was done for XLR were in anticipation of this X-Wing project. Will a significant PIP to the GTF accompany the introduction of this wing? It will be interesting as we learn more details.

If by root wing you mean the center wingbox, I don't think that it will be retained if a brand new composite outer wing is introduced. I'd say it's rather the RCT added in the XLR that is central to introducing a new wing more suitable (I assume) for longer range flights.

Yeah, I did mean center wingbox... my bad.... I guess I'm imagining the a re-wing might also imply including a new stretch, which might also imply greater distance... Hence my question if this Wing Box was designed with a 322 stretch and new wing in mind.... I guess that it is anyone's guess and it's too early to know any of that...

I think anyone doing a major development project like XLR and the new A321 FAL at TLS certainly includes consideration of what the company's likely future products are and tries to leave in-built paths so their project can have relevance for future efforts.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 687
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:13 pm

they definitely have a cool sounding name with X Wing! :D

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
OEMInsider
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:48 pm

Airbus has officially announced it.

This scaled demonstrator will integrate and fly breakthrough wing technologies on a Cessna Citation VII business jet platform


Various technology bricks will be investigated to enable the active control of the wing, including: gust sensors, pop-up spoilers or plates that are rapidly deflected perpendicular to airflow, multifunctional trailing edges that dynamically change wing surface in flight and a semi-aeroelastic hinge.


Image

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2021/09/airbus-launches-extra-high-performance-wing-demonstrator-to-fortify-decarbonisation-ambition.html
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26711
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:33 pm

JonesNL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Wow, they are aiming at an wingspan of 52 meters. That would mean a folding wingtip of 8 meters on each side to fit in the 36 meter C gates :o

Folded up that should put the wingtips right where the vertical stabilizer ends.
Probably takes a while for passengers to get used to that kind of bendy wing..

Now you mention it, most passengers will shit their pants when they see the wings flapping around...

All true!

Any idea why a Cessna Citation VII was used as a testbed? Happened to have one kicking around?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos