Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14611
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:01 pm

While x wing is more of a research project the wing of the tomorrow aimed of production technology and more mature developments books some progress.

https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-wing-of ... w-22092021
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26707
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:28 pm

keesje wrote:
While x wing is more of a research project the wing of the tomorrow aimed of production technology and more mature developments books some progress.

https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-wing-of ... w-22092021

Correct, and more links are given in post 27 of this thread, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461121#p22801405

The relation to this new stuff is:

A320-family aircraft have a wingspan of 36 m, for an aspect ratio of nine. Airbus’ Wing of Tomorrow research program is developing a 45-m-span, aspect-ratio-14 composite wing for an A320-class aircraft, enabled by ground-folding wingtips that allow the aircraft to still fit a standard 36-m Code C gate.

“With the semi-aeroelastic hinge we hope to add approximately another 7 m, for an aspect ratio of 18,” said Wilson. Going from 45 m to 52 m will reduce induced drag, which is inversely proportional to the square of aspect ratio, “but because of the huge load alleviation potential we hope to get this aerodynamic gain without having to incur the weight penalty.”

Ref: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips

So we have:
    A320 aspect ratio: 9
    WoT aspect ratio: 14
    X-Wing aspect ratio: 18

JO/TAC made it seem like the two programs were pretty closely related, but after reading the AvWeek link kindly provided by @JoergAtADN above I don't think they are very closely related. It seems to be a stretch to contemplate X-Wing making it onto a 2025-era product after reading the AvWeek article.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:13 am

Just so we are clear which is which.....

Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 93.article
 
JonesNL
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Secret Airbus X-Plane?

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:17 am

OEMInsider wrote:
Airbus has officially announced it.

This scaled demonstrator will integrate and fly breakthrough wing technologies on a Cessna Citation VII business jet platform


Various technology bricks will be investigated to enable the active control of the wing, including: gust sensors, pop-up spoilers or plates that are rapidly deflected perpendicular to airflow, multifunctional trailing edges that dynamically change wing surface in flight and a semi-aeroelastic hinge.


Image

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2021/09/airbus-launches-extra-high-performance-wing-demonstrator-to-fortify-decarbonisation-ambition.html

Shame that they do not provide time lines...
 
JonesNL
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:34 am

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
While x wing is more of a research project the wing of the tomorrow aimed of production technology and more mature developments books some progress.

https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-wing-of ... w-22092021

Correct, and more links are given in post 27 of this thread, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461121#p22801405

The relation to this new stuff is:

A320-family aircraft have a wingspan of 36 m, for an aspect ratio of nine. Airbus’ Wing of Tomorrow research program is developing a 45-m-span, aspect-ratio-14 composite wing for an A320-class aircraft, enabled by ground-folding wingtips that allow the aircraft to still fit a standard 36-m Code C gate.

“With the semi-aeroelastic hinge we hope to add approximately another 7 m, for an aspect ratio of 18,” said Wilson. Going from 45 m to 52 m will reduce induced drag, which is inversely proportional to the square of aspect ratio, “but because of the huge load alleviation potential we hope to get this aerodynamic gain without having to incur the weight penalty.”

Ref: https://aviationweek.com/special-topics ... g-wingtips

So we have:
    A320 aspect ratio: 9
    WoT aspect ratio: 14
    X-Wing aspect ratio: 18

JO/TAC made it seem like the two programs were pretty closely related, but after reading the AvWeek link kindly provided by @JoergAtADN above I don't think they are very closely related. It seems to be a stretch to contemplate X-Wing making it onto a 2025-era product after reading the AvWeek article.


I think it depends when they are going to implement the WoT. From a commercial or development cost standpoint they might delay it and combine it with X-wing to minimize certification costs and time.

The A32x program definitely doesn’t need better wings to gain more sales, but it can use an new wing option to extract more $$ from existing backlog by means of conversion…
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:44 am

astuteman wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think Airbus is focussed on delivering the huge NEO backlog and trippling A220 output rates.

The XLR already proves to be a major development/ disruption of the A320 supply chain and assembly. I think the XLR's fuel system, 101t MTOW modifications, provide the base for a "simple" A322NEO, trading range for capacity maintaing the same MTOW. A 35k lbs GTF/ LEAP would be welcome, finally...


You should either be providing evidence, or stating your comment as a belief or opinion when making statements like this, to be honest.

Rgds


His 'I think" part of the comments already notes it's his belief or opinion.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2763
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Airbus launches extra high performance wing demonstrator to fortify decarbonisation ambition

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:30 am

I am surprised and impressed every time Airbus presents such technology demonstrators. Whether it's the laminar flow A340 test bed, the fully electric E-Fan or now the adaptive wing Cessna Citation. Does Boeing not do this or are they simply less vocal about it?
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Airbus launches extra high performance wing demonstrator to fortify decarbonisation ambition

Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:45 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I am surprised and impressed every time Airbus presents such technology demonstrators. Whether it's the laminar flow A340 test bed, the fully electric E-Fan or now the adaptive wing Cessna Citation. Does Boeing not do this or are they simply less vocal about it?


Boeing is working on a truss braced wing concept and demonstrator

Image

https://www.boeing.com/features/2019/01 ... 01-19.page

It will be interesting to see where wing technology goes since both Airbus and Boeing are studying new concepts
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3527
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:13 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Just so we are clear which is which.....

Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 93.article


To this layman, seems like Boeing and Airbus are working on the same concept, slender and longer wings. Just using different marketing words for the same thing.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1053
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Folded up that should put the wingtips right where the vertical stabilizer ends.
Probably takes a while for passengers to get used to that kind of bendy wing..

Now you mention it, most passengers will shit their pants when they see the wings flapping around...

All true!

Any idea why a Cessna Citation VII was used as a testbed? Happened to have one kicking around?

Thats a curious choice considering Boeing is supposedly using 2 MD90s for their new wing test, which I find it more realistic for an actual future airliner than Airbus's attempt.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1974
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:59 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Thats a curious choice considering Boeing is supposedly using 2 MD90s for their new wing test, which I find it more realistic for an actual future airliner than Airbus's attempt.



Why is it a curious choice? Is there some rule that means wing designs and lessons learned doesn't scale up?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26707
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:10 pm

enzo011 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Thats a curious choice considering Boeing is supposedly using 2 MD90s for their new wing test, which I find it more realistic for an actual future airliner than Airbus's attempt.

Why is it a curious choice? Is there some rule that means wing designs and lessons learned doesn't scale up?

Given the next A or B wing isn't likely to be on a CVII or a MD90, both seem to agree that scaling will happen.

Personally, I'd think we'd see a vendor prefer to use in-house IP for their testbeds.

I think it's not very controversial to ask why A picked CVII for a testbed, it probably has a simple answer like 'we happened to have one handy'.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1974
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Thats a curious choice considering Boeing is supposedly using 2 MD90s for their new wing test, which I find it more realistic for an actual future airliner than Airbus's attempt.

Why is it a curious choice? Is there some rule that means wing designs and lessons learned doesn't scale up?

Given the next A or B wing isn't likely to be on a CVII or a MD90, both seem to agree that scaling will happen.

Personally, I'd think we'd see a vendor prefer to use in-house IP for their testbeds.

I think it's not very controversial to ask why A picked CVII for a testbed, it probably has a simple answer like 'we happened to have one handy'.


Yeah, but that is not what the poster posted and what I questioned. You agree with me, so not sure why you defend a point he did not make.
 
PhilipBass
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:30 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Thats a curious choice considering Boeing is supposedly using 2 MD90s for their new wing test, which I find it more realistic for an actual future airliner than Airbus's attempt.

Why is it a curious choice? Is there some rule that means wing designs and lessons learned doesn't scale up?

Given the next A or B wing isn't likely to be on a CVII or a MD90, both seem to agree that scaling will happen.

Personally, I'd think we'd see a vendor prefer to use in-house IP for their testbeds.

I think it's not very controversial to ask why A picked CVII for a testbed, it probably has a simple answer like 'we happened to have one handy'.

Easy to find a hanger for a private jet and assign a small team of Engineers to a skunkworks project just like the BAE 146 with an electric motor that they were playing around with a few years ago.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1053
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:43 am

enzo011 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
Why is it a curious choice? Is there some rule that means wing designs and lessons learned doesn't scale up?

Given the next A or B wing isn't likely to be on a CVII or a MD90, both seem to agree that scaling will happen.

Personally, I'd think we'd see a vendor prefer to use in-house IP for their testbeds.

I think it's not very controversial to ask why A picked CVII for a testbed, it probably has a simple answer like 'we happened to have one handy'.


Yeah, but that is not what the poster posted and what I questioned. You agree with me, so not sure why you defend a point he did not make.

Yes, you may be able to scale it up, however testing anything closer to actual size will bring about more accurate results (effects on variance reduced).
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1974
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:13 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
[Yes, you may be able to scale it up, however testing anything closer to actual size will bring about more accurate results (effects on variance reduced).



But that is on the assumption that both wings they are testing are at the same stages of development and thus they are both looking for the same data but are using different size models, if that is even a problem for the OEMs. You sure you didn't know Boeing went bigger and you thought, bigger is better?
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1053
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:19 am

enzo011 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
[Yes, you may be able to scale it up, however testing anything closer to actual size will bring about more accurate results (effects on variance reduced).



But that is on the assumption that both wings they are testing are at the same stages of development and thus they are both looking for the same data but are using different size models, if that is even a problem for the OEMs. You sure you didn't know Boeing went bigger and you thought, bigger is better?

No, its not bigger is better, but the closer to actual implementation the better it is. I will take it further using your logic of different stages of development, is it then that Boeing may be ahead of the game that they feel more comfortable than Airbus in testing it as close to an actual future airliner as possible? And Boeing is testing it not on one plane, but two. Boeing may not have made any announcements about their new wing, but the indications of them doing it have predated Airbus by years, so its entirely possible for Boeing to be ahead of it.
 
Ertro
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:33 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
I will take it further using your logic of different stages of development, is it then that Boeing may be ahead of the game that they feel more comfortable than Airbus in testing it as close to an actual future airliner as possible? And Boeing is testing it not on one plane, but two. Boeing may not have made any announcements about their new wing, but the indications of them doing it have predated Airbus by years, so its entirely possible for Boeing to be ahead of it.


With Airbus there clearly is a talk about 2 separate wing projects.
These two different wing projects seem somehow confusingly intermixed in the discussions.

There is a separate more conventional wing called "wing of the tomorrow" that is somewhat close to production and it might appear on A322 or whatever in near future.
Maybe this wing is being built straight into a real deal production prototype to be bolted to real deal A322 prototype frame.
https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-wing-of ... w-22092021

However this discussion is not about that wing but rather some experimental "X-wing" concept that might or might not appear in any planes ever and in what form that needs some testing and experimenting first and a business jet might be selected because the amount of metal that needs to be fabricated is much less and so this is much cheaper way to test 4 different ideas whether they work or not in real world.
 
Duke91
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:44 am

I wonder why the go to design for these wings would be foldable, instead of a variable sweep one as in the f14 at the wing tips. Wouldn't that be more stable?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26707
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:48 pm

Thanks for the posts on the nature of the testbeds, all are appreciated.

Duke91 wrote:
I wonder why the go to design for these wings would be foldable, instead of a variable sweep one as in the f14 at the wing tips. Wouldn't that be more stable?

The AvWeek article suggests they do this because the freely moving wingtips provide natural gust alleviation, basically giant shock absorbers, and having these lets you make lighter wings overall. F14 swing wings need a very heavy mechanism to allow the wing to swing. This lets you use a relatively small wing swung back in delta configuration for low drag at high speed, yet swing it out for better performance at low speed. It's solving a very different set of problems.

What's interesting to me at least is how many posts we had on the 777x folding wingtips suggesting they were unsafe after decades of military swing wing experience showing they are not a problem, and here we have a free-flapping wingtip and no one asks if they will be a problem or not. Oh, well.
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:48 pm

My guess: Airbus works on full industrialization of the Wing of tomorrow, probably ready to launch in any time when needed. The longer Boeing will no bring a new jet, the more time will they have to prepare it for mass production. In the meantime, they will work on the xWing concept eventually to integrate it. If there is enough to integrate it? Time will tell.
 
FlyHPN
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:15 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:55 am

Revelation wrote:
What's interesting to me at least is how many posts we had on the 777x folding wingtips suggesting they were unsafe after decades of military swing wing experience showing they are not a problem, and here we have a free-flapping wingtip and no one asks if they will be a problem or not. Oh, well.


I’m also surprised this hasn’t lead to more discussion. FAA put out 10 “rules” that the 777 folding mechanism will need to abide by for certification. The locking/unlocking mid flight discussed in the article above is directly in violation of #10. https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips

Sure, these rules are explicitly being called out for 777X to follow, but I think that will just mean more reluctance (and therefore persuasion by Airbus) to allow it.

Regardless, I’m very excited to follow the stories of of both manufacturers new wings.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14662
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:13 am

FlyHPN wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What's interesting to me at least is how many posts we had on the 777x folding wingtips suggesting they were unsafe after decades of military swing wing experience showing they are not a problem, and here we have a free-flapping wingtip and no one asks if they will be a problem or not. Oh, well.


The locking/unlocking mid flight discussed in the article above is directly in violation of #10. https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips

Sure, these rules are explicitly being called out for 777X to follow, but I think that will just mean more reluctance (and therefore persuasion by Airbus) to allow it..


I wouldn´t think that is a problem since certification has always allowed surfaces to move in flight that are designed to move in flight.

best regards
Thomas
 
estorilm
Posts: 823
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
FlyHPN wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What's interesting to me at least is how many posts we had on the 777x folding wingtips suggesting they were unsafe after decades of military swing wing experience showing they are not a problem, and here we have a free-flapping wingtip and no one asks if they will be a problem or not. Oh, well.


The locking/unlocking mid flight discussed in the article above is directly in violation of #10. https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips

Sure, these rules are explicitly being called out for 777X to follow, but I think that will just mean more reluctance (and therefore persuasion by Airbus) to allow it..


I wouldn´t think that is a problem since certification has always allowed surfaces to move in flight that are designed to move in flight.

best regards
Thomas


Yup, they didn't seem to have a problem with Airbus (and to a lesser extent, Boeing with the 787) during roll-out of their high-lift and variable-camber wing technologies, which integrate very well with their existing FBW and flight control computers.

In case anyone is interested, one of the Airbus engineers wrote a paper on the principles of the XWB variable wing geometry - looks like it was related to ICAS (which I've GOT to attend one of these days). https://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2014/data/papers/2014_0298_paper.pdf

There is some incredibly fascinating aeronautical engineering in that PDF, and it kinda falls in-line with how Airbus has mentioned biomimicry in the past, and even in the development of the A350. In my opinion, all of this is a continuation of that process, and they seem to have a decent understanding of how to achieve it in incremental steps. I haven't been fortunate enough to fly on an XWB yet, but I'm sure to the trained eye, it's got to be rather bizarre to watch flaps and slats move around in-flight to adjust CoG, bending-moments, center of lift, etc - all seamlessly and automatically.

If such a system is already flying and certified / safe, then I can't imagine there being many difficulties with what is essentially a MECHANICAL-based system in this AlbatrossONE design. It may LOOK scary and dramatic, but in practice I think it'll be very safe.

Of course the FAA and other regulatory bodies will want them to prove things like asymmetrical deployment, which Airbus may argue isn't a "deployment" as it's a free-hinged system, but what if they can't re-acquire a wing and lock it with the clutch assembly for landing? So you've got like 25' of wing flopping around on one side and not on the other? I'm assuming the computer would unlock BOTH in such a case, and you might perform the landing similar to a no-flaps appraoch/ldg? Who knows - it's a whole new world out there, but it seems like current wing design and thinking has reached its efficiency peak.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos