Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
nry
Topic Author
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:42 pm

Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 4:56 am

Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-boeing

More than a leak - an official statement from someone at Airbus. The NMA battle is heating up.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4185
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 5:45 am

Very exciting. What caught my eye was

The future wing will be built longer and thinner to improve aerodynamic performance and fuel efficiency, with the added span requiring folding tips in order to access existing airport gates.


Some idea of scale and where the market could be (larger/longer range) for planes sporting this new wing.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Noshow
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 5:50 am

Will Spirit build this wing?
 
Kikko19
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 5:54 am

Going for a322?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3863
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 6:53 am

Noshow wrote:
Will Spirit build this wing?


Maybe.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 7:19 am

So yes or no?
 
oschkosch
Posts: 687
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:18 am

Noshow wrote:
So yes or no?



Nobody knows! But the bloomberg article says this:

A stretch of the A321 to a so-called A322 model could accomodate as many as four extra rows, according to Tusa. That would equate to 24 extra economy seats, or make a two-class layout more practicable. An all-new wing could also provide a significant range extension and potentially allow a repositioning of the landing gear to fit more-efficient engines.

Airbus has also been able to draw on lessons from the smaller A220 plane, acquired from Bombardier Inc. and the only current narrow-body with a composite wing. Engineers have worked with the Spirit AeroSystems Holdings plant in Northern Ireland that makes the structure.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:42 am

nry wrote:
The NMA battle is heating up.


Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:42 am

But the bloomberg article says this:...



This is why I asked.
 
VMCA787
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:03 am

VSMUT wrote:
nry wrote:
The NMA battle is heating up.


Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.


I don't think it will have the effect you think it will. With such a change, to the A-220 or 320 families, that will result in a complete certification program. That is going to give Boeing an advantage. The problem Boeing faces is its housekeeping issues. If they don't get their act together in both the commercial and military market, there won't be much of a future. If the T-7 is any indication, there just might be hope for both the commercial and military sides.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4185
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:07 am

VMCA787 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
nry wrote:
The NMA battle is heating up.


Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.


I don't think it will have the effect you think it will. With such a change, to the A-220 or 320 families, that will result in a complete certification program. That is going to give Boeing an advantage. The problem Boeing faces is its housekeeping issues. If they don't get their act together in both the commercial and military market, there won't be much of a future. If the T-7 is any indication, there just might be hope for both the commercial and military sides.

Why would it need a full recertification program? Re-wings have been done on an STC before I see no reason why it would would need it here.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:11 am

VMCA787 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
nry wrote:
The NMA battle is heating up.


Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.


I don't think it will have the effect you think it will. With such a change, to the A-220 or 320 families, that will result in a complete certification program. That is going to give Boeing an advantage.


Depends, but certification is not all. It would likely retain the production apparatus, type ratings, trained crew and staff, commonality etc. Boeing would have to do a complete clean-sheet to even hope to match it.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2430
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:17 am

VSMUT wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.


I don't think it will have the effect you think it will. With such a change, to the A-220 or 320 families, that will result in a complete certification program. That is going to give Boeing an advantage.


Depends, but certification is not all. It would likely retain the production apparatus, type ratings, trained crew and staff, commonality etc. Boeing would have to do a complete clean-sheet to even hope to match it.

Your obsession with crushing and killing I don’t understand it. It’s the same thing you said for A350F. Airbus is still trying to market it and so far as we know and has been unsuccessful.

Airbus won’t bother with this if they don’t have to and will just apply it onto the next generation of narrow bodies. As the article suggests it’s an answer to a Boeing move. Truth is nobody knows what the hell Boeing is doing. When that comes out then we can have the conversation.

Boeing has not developed NMA because if they build it how aircrafts are built the economics won’t stack up. So relax
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:13 am

Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:23 am

Opus99 wrote:
Your obsession with crushing and killing I don’t understand it...

...Airbus won’t bother with this if they don’t have to and will just apply it onto the next generation of narrow bodies. As the article suggests it’s an answer to a Boeing move. Truth is nobody knows what the hell Boeing is doing. When that comes out then we can have the conversation.


Airbus didn't have to launch the A321LR. They didn't have to launch the A321XLR. They seem pretty adamant about locking down this segment of the market by making it a poor investment for Boeing.


Opus99 wrote:
It’s the same thing you said for A350F. Airbus is still trying to market it and so far as we know and has been unsuccessful.


I was pretty clear that whichever manufacturer hits the market first will kill the other's attempt, not that the A350F would kill the 777XF. That topic just happened to be about the A350F possibly nearing launch.
With small niche segments, there just isn't space for 2 competitors, lest they bleed each other dry. We saw that with the Tristar vs DC-10 in the past. Arguably the same for the A380 and 747-8i. An A322 would compete for a market space of maybe 500, at most maybe 800 aircraft. Split that across 2 manufacturers, that's barely enough for 2 derivative models, let alone a clean sheet design. It's just reality, no matter how much some want to see every manufacturer have a product for every market.
 
VMCA787
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:28 am

The criteria for the FAA Type, in the past, had been based around flying characteristics. However, with the Max issues, it would appear as if, the FAA is adding a layer of certification to the process. Clearly, the 777X scrutiny is a result of the new and more thorough certification process. Putting new wings on which are such a change from the original and then adding folding wingtips makes the aircraft extremely different. I also think you will find major changes to the fuselage in an effort to save weight. Those changes will result in greater scrutiny from both the FAA and EASA.
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 991
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:32 am

G'day

VV wrote:
Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?


Airbus has all the space available where they used to manufacture A380 wings, that should be sufficient for high volume production of a new narrowbody wing. However, Airbus for political reasons may decide to produce any new wing in the EU :old:

Cheers

Peter
 
Opus99
Posts: 2430
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:45 am

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Your obsession with crushing and killing I don’t understand it...

...Airbus won’t bother with this if they don’t have to and will just apply it onto the next generation of narrow bodies. As the article suggests it’s an answer to a Boeing move. Truth is nobody knows what the hell Boeing is doing. When that comes out then we can have the conversation.


Airbus didn't have to launch the A321LR. They didn't have to launch the A321XLR. They seem pretty adamant about locking down this segment of the market by making it a poor investment for Boeing.


Opus99 wrote:
It’s the same thing you said for A350F. Airbus is still trying to market it and so far as we know and has been unsuccessful.


I was pretty clear that whichever manufacturer hits the market first will kill the other's attempt, not that the A350F would kill the 777XF. That topic just happened to be about the A350F possibly nearing launch.
With small niche segments, there just isn't space for 2 competitors, lest they bleed each other dry. We saw that with the Tristar vs DC-10 in the past. Arguably the same for the A380 and 747-8i. An A322 would compete for a market space of maybe 500, at most maybe 800 aircraft. Split that across 2 manufacturers, that's barely enough for 2 derivative models, let alone a clean sheet design. It's just reality, no matter how much some want to see every manufacturer have a product for every market.

Airbus had to launch those because there was nothing else and they could easily do it. It was a no brainer. The 321XLR is their current MOM answer by default. They also want to see what Boeing will launch before they move. As the industry suggests. Bear in mind 322 is not an LR or an XLR. There’s no benefit in launching before hand and bringing out a product that will be dominated. Wait and see how Boeing will move and that will determine how they move.
 
HL300B4
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 5:42 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:48 am

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Your obsession with crushing and killing I don’t understand it...

...Airbus won’t bother with this if they don’t have to and will just apply it onto the next generation of narrow bodies. As the article suggests it’s an answer to a Boeing move. Truth is nobody knows what the hell Boeing is doing. When that comes out then we can have the conversation.


Airbus didn't have to launch the A321LR. They didn't have to launch the A321XLR. They seem pretty adamant about locking down this segment of the market by making it a poor investment for Boeing.


Opus99 wrote:
It’s the same thing you said for A350F. Airbus is still trying to market it and so far as we know and has been unsuccessful.


I was pretty clear that whichever manufacturer hits the market first will kill the other's attempt, not that the A350F would kill the 777XF. That topic just happened to be about the A350F possibly nearing launch.
With small niche segments, there just isn't space for 2 competitors, lest they bleed each other dry. We saw that with the Tristar vs DC-10 in the past. Arguably the same for the A380 and 747-8i. An A322 would compete for a market space of maybe 500, at most maybe 800 aircraft. Split that across 2 manufacturers, that's barely enough for 2 derivative models, let alone a clean sheet design. It's just reality, no matter how much some want to see every manufacturer have a product for every market.

Airbus had to launch those because there was nothing else and they could easily do it. It was a no brainer. The 321XLR is their current MOM answer by default. They also want to see what Boeing will launch before they move. As the industry suggests. Bear in mind 322 is not an LR or an XLR. There’s no benefit in launching before hand and bringing out a product that will be dominated. Wait and see how Boeing will move and that will determine how they move.


Why do you always state that Boeing will move first and Airbus will only respond? Would it be so shocking if it were the other way around? They are clearly working on something at the moment which is not a response but rather a new development.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 11:55 am

Opus99 wrote:
Airbus had to launch those because there was nothing else and they could easily do it.


No, they didn't. They could have just sat back and kept selling the basic A321neo. Airlines didn't have a choice. The aircraft was flying out of the factory. That would have been the no-brainer.


Opus99 wrote:
The 321XLR is their current MOM answer by default. They also want to see what Boeing will launch before they move.


They clearly aren't waiting for Boeing to respond, because Airbus was the one that made the first move with the A320neo in 2010, the A321LR in 2015, the A321XLR in 2019 and now potentially this. They didn't wait for Boeing in any of these cases.


Opus99 wrote:
There’s no benefit in launching before hand and bringing out a product that will be dominated.


Gobbling up enough of the market so that your competitor can't justify launching an up-to-date product is a pretty big benefit. It's not a method that's limited to one side, Boeing attempted to kill off the A330neo in its infancy by pushing discounted 787s.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2430
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 12:09 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Airbus had to launch those because there was nothing else and they could easily do it.


No, they didn't. They could have just sat back and kept selling the basic A321neo. Airlines didn't have a choice. The aircraft was flying out of the factory. That would have been the no-brainer.


Opus99 wrote:
The 321XLR is their current MOM answer by default. They also want to see what Boeing will launch before they move.


They clearly aren't waiting for Boeing to respond, because Airbus was the one that made the first move with the A320neo in 2010, the A321LR in 2015, the A321XLR in 2019 and now potentially this. They didn't wait for Boeing in any of these cases.


Opus99 wrote:
There’s no benefit in launching before hand and bringing out a product that will be dominated.


Gobbling up enough of the market so that your competitor can't justify launching an up-to-date product is a pretty big benefit. It's not a method that's limited to one side, Boeing attempted to kill off the A330neo in its infancy by pushing discounted 787s.

They could’ve sat back and that would’ve been daft. Which is what I mean when I say they had to because it was obvious. Technically they didn’t have to. Nobody has to do anything in life. The XLR in itself is not middle of the market. The A322 will be an actual middle of the market aircraft which is why I say it is not like launching the LR or the XLR. It’s the same everything just internals. This something very new with a different type of certification. If Boeing is not going to launch why got through the hassle and cannibalise your own product. Unless you have to. The XLR is doing very well partly because there’s nothing else to buy.

They could very well go ahead and release it if they want but the A322 is a different ball game than a LR or XLR. Airbus made the 320NEO move partly based on the C series. So let’s not act like they were not given a nudge.

They could go ahead for sure but from what the industry has said it seems like a response to what Boeing wants to do. They have the market now, whether they launch or not. If Boeing does not they will still have the market.

Let us see how it unfolds.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 12:37 pm

Folding tips definitely sounds like a new carbon wing for the A321 family.

The A321 is severely span limited and Airbus clearly knows this is their weakest link. I assume Airbus will keep the old wing in production for quite some years and the new wing will launch with a new aircraft model number.

Most people assume the A322 will be a simple stretch of the A321XLR and have much less range. However the A322 could be the launch model with the new wing. It could have a higher 110t MTOW to maintain the 4,700nm range. The folding wing tips and increased span would allow for the same thrust engines as the 101t A321XLR to be used.

With same thrust engines that means fuel burn is the same despite 10+% more seats. So a BIG fuel burn improvement per seat.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7439
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 1:16 pm

Opus99 wrote:
They could’ve sat back and that would’ve been daft. Which is what I mean when I say they had to because it was obvious. Technically they didn’t have to. Nobody has to do anything in life. The XLR in itself is not middle of the market. The A322 will be an actual middle of the market aircraft which is why I say it is not like launching the LR or the XLR. It’s the same everything just internals. This something very new with a different type of certification. If Boeing is not going to launch why got through the hassle and cannibalise your own product. Unless you have to. The XLR is doing very well partly because there’s nothing else to buy.


I'm not sure Boeing's CEO agrees with you.

In the thread entitled "Boeing CEO's Comments On Their Next Airplane"

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457171

The very first post makes this reference..

In discussing the A321XLR TATL market competition between Max and 787, Boeing CEO David Calhoun tells an analyst, while not defining an airplane, “you’re pretty much in the right space where the next airplane developments lean.”


Dunno. But XLR is definitely MOM in terms of range, if not in terms of capacity.
Paradoxically a straight stretch A322 might be considered MOM in terms of capacity, but wouldn't be in terms of range

I'm pretty sure with A32X NEO sales going the speed they were, and with production struggling to catch up, that Airbus didn't launch the XLR for "something to do". It was pretty clearly launched as a relatively cheap spoiler to the NMA business case, based on its own merit

You answer your own question, by the way. The XLR doing very well because there is nothing esle to buy is the reason to launch derivatives that prevents an NMA business case reaching sign off point. That way they can continue to do very well when there is nothing esle to buy.

Rgds
 
744SPX
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 1:58 pm

If they go with a new wing, I could see doing a 6-8 row stretch (Keesje's "A323") while maintaining 4700 nmi range with a slight bump in GTF power to 37,500 lbs or so.

That would put it squarely in NMA capacity/range territory and would better recoup the investment than a 4 row stretch. (this is assuming the new wing has enough of an increase in area)
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5046
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 2:03 pm

Boeing is in peril as a one note Johnny. The 787 (now a great aircraft, finally!) is not enough to compete with the Airbus lineup if they rewing the 320. Further discussion of this is too far off topic.
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 2:48 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

VV wrote:
Will Airbus wings continue to be designed and built in the UK?


Airbus has all the space available where they used to manufacture A380 wings, that should be sufficient for high volume production of a new narrowbody wing. However, Airbus for political reasons may decide to produce any new wing in the EU :old:
...


I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 2:52 pm

nry wrote:
Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-boeing

More than a leak - an official statement from someone at Airbus. The NMA battle is heating up.

No actual news in that story or this thread for those who have been following this space.

Airbus has been making "official statements" on this same project since 2015 or so:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... uture.html

This FG article from 2019 says they planned to be making full-scale examples in 2020 so they're actually behind that schedule:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 76.article

Folding wing tips were already shown in 2019:

Image

Ref: https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-aircraf ... velopments

Above article has lots of info if people really want to know what is actually happening.

The Bloomberg article is pretty clearly clickbait. They leverage one insider to give some legitimacy:

Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.

While she declined to discuss specific product plans, a new lightweight wing could be deployed on an upgraded version of the A320 series, allowing Airbus to harvest more efficiencies from its largest existing single-aisle jets. The move would have the benefit of giving Airbus a ready response should arch-rival Boeing Co. choose to go ahead with a new aircraft after its 737 narrow-body reached the limits of development.

... then jump right in to a.net level speculation.

Much later in the article they include a sensible time line:

Airbus’ wing project will be wrapped up in 2023, and the next step will be to sharpen the technology for an eventual product launch, with the timeline depending on the complexity of the aircraft design, said Partridge.

The rest of the article is the same kind of speculation you can read in countless threads here on a.net.

We should all try to guess the a.net userid of "Agency Partners analyst Sash Tusa".

More proof of clickbait is the dog whistle they blew on Brexit:

Though Airbus launched the wing program -- based at its Filton site in England -- in 2015, it has taken on new significance in light of more recent developments. Airbus makes the wings for all its aircraft in the U.K. and flies them by cargo aircraft to the final assembly lines on the continent.

New significance, you say? What could you possibly be referring to? Oh...

Just subtle enough to trigger the readership without being overt about it.

VV wrote:
I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.

Sue Partridge - Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme - Airbus
https://uk.linkedin.com › sue-partridge-75586b54
Bristol, England, United Kingdom · ‎Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme · ‎Airbus

The FG and aero-mag links above quote her extensively.

Clearly the R&D is being done in the UK. The various articles you get from googling "wing of tomorrow airbus" show the Wales government has invested a lot in composite R&D, but no one knows if issues with "new significance" will be paramount or not.

Oh well, in an hour or so Simply Flying will have an article regurgitating this one, happy days!
 
VV
Posts: 2352
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 4:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
...
VV wrote:
I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.


Just Googled her and found an interview on Youtube.
It sounds like the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVk9vHQd1I
 
User avatar
NeBaNi
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Revelation wrote:

No actual news in that story or this thread for those who have been following this space.

Airbus has been making "official statements" on this same project since 2015 or so:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... uture.html

This FG article from 2019 says they planned to be making full-scale examples in 2020 so they're actually behind that schedule:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 76.article

Folding wing tips were already shown in 2019:

Image

Ref: https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-aircraf ... velopments

Above article has lots of info if people really want to know what is actually happening.

The Bloomberg article is pretty clearly clickbait. They leverage one insider to give some legitimacy:



Nice set of links, thanks for those! Continuing the a.net level of speculation here, I wonder if Airbus is planning this wing to incorporate the laminar flow technology from its BLADE demonstrator a couple of years ago, pictured test flying on an A343:
Image

Here are a couple of links explaining this:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2017/09/airbus_-_blade_-laminar-flow-wing-demonstrator-makes-first-fligh.html
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-07-18/airbus-blade-runner-exceeds-expectations
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/ila-airbus-encouraged-by-laminar-winged-a340-trial/127896.article

The last article from Flightglobal has some interesting snippets:
Airbus estimates that laminar-flow wings could reduce drag by around 10%, cutting fuel burn by up to 5% on an 800nm (1,480km) sector.

Furthermore, the aerodynamic benefits could be sustained during the flight tests at Mach 0.78 – a typical cruise speed for A320-family jets[.]


[Axel Flaig, then SVP of Research and Technology] says the test have shown "the door is wide open" to employ the technology on a potential next-generation single-aisle aircraft from the late 2020s.

Now, of course, timelines have shifted and a new single-aisle isn't being planned anymore for the late 2020s, but if the A320 family is going to get rewinged, I imagine the results from the BLADE demonstrator will be looked into.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 5:07 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
...
VV wrote:
I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.


Just Googled her and found an interview on Youtube.
It sounds like the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVk9vHQd1I

Sorry, but that interview says nothing along the lines of "the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK", it is basically a piece encouraging young females to become engineers.

As brilliant as her accomplishments suggest she is, I doubt an engineering leader would have all that much influence over what remains in the UK and what leaves.

Since you want to focus on this sub-topic, personally I'll say I think it'd be hard for the company to replicate the engineering talent elsewhere, but they've already shown they are happy to do manufacturing all over the world, including UK, EU, Canada, the US, and China.

If I had to guess, I'd say R&D and prototype manufacturing would continue in the UK going forward, but any new wing plant probably would land in some low cost corner of the EU, mainly to save cost, and also to avoid the in-fighting between the DE and FR stake holders.

An earlier thread had a suggestion of putting the plant right on the DE-FR border so the work force could flow in from both countries, but that seems fanciful to me.

Yes, they have under-utilized A380 wing factories in the UK, but IMO they are easy to write off and the cost of doing so is minor compared to the savings on labor that can be had for decades going forward.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 6:26 pm

Noshow wrote:
Will Spirit build this wing?


I assume Airbus will build this wing. They have done two CFRP wings by now.

And I assume that manufacturing will stay in the UK. Airbus does not like the added problems with Brexit, but whom would they sell the wing factories to. Writing them just off could be expensive.
 
User avatar
eurotrader85
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 6:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
...

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.


Just Googled her and found an interview on Youtube.
It sounds like the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVk9vHQd1I

Sorry, but that interview says nothing along the lines of "the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK", it is basically a piece encouraging young females to become engineers.

As brilliant as her accomplishments suggest she is, I doubt an engineering leader would have all that much influence over what remains in the UK and what leaves.

Since you want to focus on this sub-topic, personally I'll say I think it'd be hard for the company to replicate the engineering talent elsewhere, but they've already shown they are happy to do manufacturing all over the world, including UK, EU, Canada, the US, and China.

If I had to guess, I'd say R&D and prototype manufacturing would continue in the UK going forward, but any new wing plant probably would land in some low cost corner of the EU, mainly to save cost, and also to avoid the in-fighting between the DE and FR stake holders.

An earlier thread had a suggestion of putting the plant right on the DE-FR border so the work force could flow in from both countries, but that seems fanciful to me.

Yes, they have under-utilized A380 wing factories in the UK, but IMO they are easy to write off and the cost of doing so is minor compared to the savings on labor that can be had for decades going forward.


A bold statement to make given the diplomatic input the UK has in Airbus, plus with a skilled workforce already in place AND as the UK govt has been keen to point out to every major manufacturer under the sun since Brexit, it is no longer held back by 'pesky' EU state aid rules (don't need to point to the irony of this given it was the UK that was the lead enforcer and proponent of implantation of said rules in the first place)
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 6:57 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Since you want to focus on this sub-topic, personally I'll say I think it'd be hard for the company to replicate the engineering talent elsewhere, but they've already shown they are happy to do manufacturing all over the world, including UK, EU, Canada, the US, and China.

If I had to guess, I'd say R&D and prototype manufacturing would continue in the UK going forward, but any new wing plant probably would land in some low cost corner of the EU, mainly to save cost, and also to avoid the in-fighting between the DE and FR stake holders.

An earlier thread had a suggestion of putting the plant right on the DE-FR border so the work force could flow in from both countries, but that seems fanciful to me.

Yes, they have under-utilized A380 wing factories in the UK, but IMO they are easy to write off and the cost of doing so is minor compared to the savings on labor that can be had for decades going forward.

A bold statement to make given the diplomatic input the UK has in Airbus, plus with a skilled workforce already in place AND as the UK govt has been keen to point out to every major manufacturer under the sun since Brexit, it is no longer held back by 'pesky' EU state aid rules (don't need to point to the irony of this given it was the UK that was the lead enforcer and proponent of implantation of said rules in the first place)

If it is experience that Airbus is after they could put a new wing factory in Tianjin, they have been making A320 wings there for several years now.

I won't touch the state aid comments.

DE and FR are large stake holders in Airbus, I think they will be the power brokers for the decision on where to set up the next large manufacturing facility.

I think CN comes with risk of trade issues so they will avoid that, and I think the "split the baby" decision process will end up with a plant somewhere in EU but not in DE or FR, but this is just my opinion.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 7:34 pm

The new wing will be state of the art. This is a job for established heartland places close to the company core and not too far from the final assembly sites in Europe. You would not want this high rate key product to be depending on global logistics. I consider China (or any other non European place for that matter) to be not likely for this program as a wing supplier.
 
tomcat
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 7:36 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Will Spirit build this wing?


Maybe.


Here is an interesting link:
https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/update-lower-wing-skin-wing-of-tomorrow

On the Wing of Tomorrow program, Spirit's involvement is the following:
Spirit AeroSystems (Europe), in Prestwick, Scotland, is working on the lower wing skin, the fixed leading edge and a slat.


Note also that:
Airbus is working on the upper wing skin, wing box, wing box ribs, flaps and the joint of the folding wing tip (FWT).


and that:
GKN Aerospace (Redditch, U.K.) is working on the rear spar, the trailing edge and the wing box ribs (with Airbus).


From the above, it seems that Airbus would retain the assembly of the new wing.

This new wing would probably suit large single-aisle applications (A321 and A322) although the Wing of Tomorrow program is meant to improve the economics of manufacturing composite wings at a very high rate of production (up to 100 shipsets/month):
Looking to the future, however, next-generation aircraft — for example, a new single-aisle aircraft to replace the A320, in Airbus’s case — might be manufactured at a rate of 60-100 month.


So the cut-off point between the A320NWO (New Wing Option) and the A220 might be below the A321 if the NWO is planned for rates in excess of 60 aircraft per month. Interesting times ahead.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:09 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Will Spirit build this wing?


I assume Airbus will build this wing. They have done two CFRP wings by now.

And I assume that manufacturing will stay in the UK. Airbus does not like the added problems with Brexit, but whom would they sell the wing factories to. Writing them just off could be expensive.


There is no reason to look at selling the factory, even if they start shifting future wing production to Bremen and Toulouse. The UK site will still remain relevant for decades to come.
 
tomcat
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:47 pm

I don't want to be part of a speculation game about where Airbus would assemble and/or manufacture a new composite wing but I think it's worth pointing out that Airbus-Spain and Spanish companies such as Aernnova have an extensive experience when it comes to design and manufacture large composite structures. Mind you, they were even loads of Spanish stress engineers in Seattle when Boeing hired extra resources to fix a few things in the 787 design around 2006/2007.

Look at this program currently going on in Spain as part of the EU Clean Sky 2 initiative:

https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/advancing-the-ooa-infused-wing-box

Included in Clean Sky 2’s seventh call for proposals (CFP07, October 2017) is the Airbus Defence and Space (Airbus DS, Cadiz, Spain) request for an innovative and flexible pilot plant to produce a highly-integrated wing box flying demonstrator using automated fiber placement (AFP) and liquid resin infusion.


The wing box requested by Airbus DS in Clean Sky 2 was to take a step forward by integrating the stiffened lower skin with stiffened forward and rear spars, enabling a more complete module without fasteners to be forwarded for assembly with the remaining wing components.


This is very relevant for a new wing, isn't it? And when you are able to produce that sort of component, the assembly of a wing is greatly simplified. In the future, there will be less added value in the assembly and more in the intermediate components. Who would still care about where the assembly would take place (UK vs EU)?
Last edited by tomcat on Mon May 24, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 8:48 pm

tomcat wrote:
From the above, it seems that Airbus would retain the assembly of the new wing.

WoT is a research program whose physical output will be three representative examples and will end in 2023.

While tradition suggests Airbus will keep most if not all of the assembly work in house, I don't think I'd reach too many conclusions from the current state of affairs.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7704
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:13 pm

VSMUT wrote:
nry wrote:
The NMA battle is heating up.


Is it? The way I see it, Airbus is merely crushing all hopes of Boeing joining the NMA game for the next decade or two. Boeing has been talking about it for as long as I have been a commercial pilot, and they still haven't showcased anything as concise as even this proposal, let alone the A321LR and A321XLR.

That's why it's heating up. Airbus is trying to squeeze out Boeing with an already existing aircraft family and engine by adding a new wing. Airbus knows Boeing can't respond with another 737 family or the 787. So Boeing would totally have to MAX the 767 or go with a clean sheet design; either way costs billions making the NMA market much less palatable for them.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 9:26 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Airbus is trying to squeeze out Boeing with an already existing aircraft family and engine by adding a new wing. Airbus knows Boeing can't respond with another 737 family or the 787. So Boeing would totally have to MAX the 767 or go with a clean sheet design; either way costs billions making the NMA market much less palatable for them.

Airbus has been working on a new wing since 2015 via a R&D program scheduled to run till 2023.

Everyone except Bloomberg's editors seems to understand that.

There's no real upside to Airbus launching a new model any time soon.

Boeing is up to its eyeballs in work (MAX7, MAX10, 779) through 2023 and Airbus has orders for every A320 family member it can build for several years.

But hey, it's a slow news day...
 
tomcat
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 10:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
Airbus has been working on a new wing since 2015 via a R&D program scheduled to run till 2023.

Everyone except Bloomberg's editors seems to understand that.

There's no real upside to Airbus launching a new model any time soon.

Boeing is up to its eyeballs in work (MAX7, MAX10, 779) through 2023 and Airbus has orders for every A320 family member it can build for several years.

But hey, it's a slow news day...


I agree with the slow news day thing, that's clear.

Where I have some doubts is about the lack of upside to Airbus launching a new model (or at least a new wing) soon. Especially from the point when the demand for new aircraft will pick-up, Airbus might be willing to go forward even before Boeing making a first move. After all, this Wing of Tomorrow program is about reducing the cost of making composite wings at a high production rate. Maybe not cheaper than the current A320 wing but the cost advantage could depend on the production rate (composite manufacturing involves a lot of fixed costs). Also this new wing could allow Airbus to take advantage of market opportunities in the post-covid world, leveraging the investment made in the XLR (the expanded fuel capacity could be put to better use with this new wing which by the way I wonder how much fuel it could hold). Based on these considerations, one could think that Airbus will move depending on the market conditions rather than just depending on a Boeing move.

Another consideration is that while Boeing engineers are kept busy with the MAX and the 779, the Airbus ones are mostly dedicated to research programs such as the WoT and the upcoming H2 projects. This is probably not the best way for Airbus to retain their talent and experience. Airbus will be forced to maintain some activity in new commercial programs to prevent its core engineering staff from looking to more exciting work opportunities elsewhere.

I'm not saying that these are decisive considerations but they cannot be completely ignored I believe.
 
Rekoff
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 7:15 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Mon May 24, 2021 10:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:

There's no real upside to Airbus launching a new model any time soon.



Yes there is. And many have addressed that elephant in the room in previous threads and even this one. You yourself have stated the strength of the NMA/NSA duo would be testing the waters of new production methods and next gen airplane design with the NMA and then scaling pruduction / applying lessons learned to the far more important NSA. You have defended this strategy on many occasions.

Airbus already squeezed some of the NMA's targeted "MoM" market with the 321XLR but it's just scraping the bottom part of that market. First mover advantage is a real thing, not something imagined by self-declared a.net pundits, especially in smaller market segments. The danger in a one-two punch sits in the second punch. A rewinged A322, with about 24 seats extra and similar or better range, would take a siginificant chunk out of the MoM. This would put severe pressure on Boeing to rethink their MoM priorities. Taking on the A322NWO head on would be a risky bet, focussing on the higher end of the MoM would hurt 787 too much. Closing the business-case would become much harder then it already is.

First mover advantage could force Boeings hand for a second time (after the MAX) and vause Boeing to refocus on the NSA first. This would fit Airbus plans much better for a next generation A320 replacement in the 2040-45 timeframe, where it could offer enough advantage vis-a-vis a twenties' tech era 737 replacement. Both Boeing and Airbus have made statements to the extent that the next gen platform and propulsion tech just wont be ready this decade. It's not in Airbus long term interest to let Max bridge that gap.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2430
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 8:33 am

Revelation wrote:
nry wrote:
Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-boeing

More than a leak - an official statement from someone at Airbus. The NMA battle is heating up.

No actual news in that story or this thread for those who have been following this space.

Airbus has been making "official statements" on this same project since 2015 or so:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... uture.html

This FG article from 2019 says they planned to be making full-scale examples in 2020 so they're actually behind that schedule:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 76.article

Folding wing tips were already shown in 2019:

Image

Ref: https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-aircraf ... velopments

Above article has lots of info if people really want to know what is actually happening.

The Bloomberg article is pretty clearly clickbait. They leverage one insider to give some legitimacy:

Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.

While she declined to discuss specific product plans, a new lightweight wing could be deployed on an upgraded version of the A320 series, allowing Airbus to harvest more efficiencies from its largest existing single-aisle jets. The move would have the benefit of giving Airbus a ready response should arch-rival Boeing Co. choose to go ahead with a new aircraft after its 737 narrow-body reached the limits of development.

... then jump right in to a.net level speculation.

Much later in the article they include a sensible time line:

Airbus’ wing project will be wrapped up in 2023, and the next step will be to sharpen the technology for an eventual product launch, with the timeline depending on the complexity of the aircraft design, said Partridge.

The rest of the article is the same kind of speculation you can read in countless threads here on a.net.

We should all try to guess the a.net userid of "Agency Partners analyst Sash Tusa".

More proof of clickbait is the dog whistle they blew on Brexit:

Though Airbus launched the wing program -- based at its Filton site in England -- in 2015, it has taken on new significance in light of more recent developments. Airbus makes the wings for all its aircraft in the U.K. and flies them by cargo aircraft to the final assembly lines on the continent.

New significance, you say? What could you possibly be referring to? Oh...

Just subtle enough to trigger the readership without being overt about it.

VV wrote:
I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.

Sue Partridge - Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme - Airbus
https://uk.linkedin.com › sue-partridge-75586b54
Bristol, England, United Kingdom · ‎Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme · ‎Airbus

The FG and aero-mag links above quote her extensively.

Clearly the R&D is being done in the UK. The various articles you get from googling "wing of tomorrow airbus" show the Wales government has invested a lot in composite R&D, but no one knows if issues with "new significance" will be paramount or not.

Oh well, in an hour or so Simply Flying will have an article regurgitating this one, happy days!

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a322-next-gen/

Like clockwork
 
Kikko19
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 9:13 am

Opus99 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
nry wrote:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ver-boeing

More than a leak - an official statement from someone at Airbus. The NMA battle is heating up.

No actual news in that story or this thread for those who have been following this space.

Airbus has been making "official statements" on this same project since 2015 or so:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... uture.html

This FG article from 2019 says they planned to be making full-scale examples in 2020 so they're actually behind that schedule:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 76.article

Folding wing tips were already shown in 2019:

Image

Ref: https://www.aero-mag.com/airbus-aircraf ... velopments

Above article has lots of info if people really want to know what is actually happening.

The Bloomberg article is pretty clearly clickbait. They leverage one insider to give some legitimacy:

Airbus aims to produce a composite wing that’s both affordable and capable of a high production rate, according to Sue Partridge, who heads the company’s future-wing project. Assembly of the first demonstrator is set to start in the next few weeks.

While she declined to discuss specific product plans, a new lightweight wing could be deployed on an upgraded version of the A320 series, allowing Airbus to harvest more efficiencies from its largest existing single-aisle jets. The move would have the benefit of giving Airbus a ready response should arch-rival Boeing Co. choose to go ahead with a new aircraft after its 737 narrow-body reached the limits of development.

... then jump right in to a.net level speculation.

Much later in the article they include a sensible time line:

Airbus’ wing project will be wrapped up in 2023, and the next step will be to sharpen the technology for an eventual product launch, with the timeline depending on the complexity of the aircraft design, said Partridge.

The rest of the article is the same kind of speculation you can read in countless threads here on a.net.

We should all try to guess the a.net userid of "Agency Partners analyst Sash Tusa".

More proof of clickbait is the dog whistle they blew on Brexit:

Though Airbus launched the wing program -- based at its Filton site in England -- in 2015, it has taken on new significance in light of more recent developments. Airbus makes the wings for all its aircraft in the U.K. and flies them by cargo aircraft to the final assembly lines on the continent.

New significance, you say? What could you possibly be referring to? Oh...

Just subtle enough to trigger the readership without being overt about it.

VV wrote:
I asked the question because the name cites "Sue Partridge". The name sounds very British.

Try googling her name, her linked-in profile comes up right away.

Sue Partridge - Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme - Airbus
https://uk.linkedin.com › sue-partridge-75586b54
Bristol, England, United Kingdom · ‎Head of Wing of Tomorrow Programme · ‎Airbus

The FG and aero-mag links above quote her extensively.

Clearly the R&D is being done in the UK. The various articles you get from googling "wing of tomorrow airbus" show the Wales government has invested a lot in composite R&D, but no one knows if issues with "new significance" will be paramount or not.

Oh well, in an hour or so Simply Flying will have an article regurgitating this one, happy days!

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a322-next-gen/

Like clockwork


Something is boiling, but still a concept. We know capacity but range? 5000nm?
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 9:48 am

I think there is more going on. In Europe there are plans that airbus is consolidating Body and Frame work in two (a French and a German) companies. Along with that I expect that they are kind of reengineering the tube design and assembly in a way more efficient setup, just as we know that Boeing is exploring new manufacturing technology and that this is key for any new model.

So, I expect that while Boing at one time has to drop the egg on their next plane, Airbus will 'piece by piece' or in larger steps reengineer the A320 completely new.

From Status today until XLR to
1) New Wing Option (I expect 2 wings, 1 folding and 1 none folding for shorter ranges)- this includes preparing for next 2 engine generations)
2) New Body Option - an updated Body, mainly optimized for manufacturing efficiency - moving Work from Final Assembly to pre assembly, so that at Final assembly we will see a Click, click, click based assembly process of far completed sections
3) New Cockpit/ Controls Option - with significantly updated Cockpit design incl. 1 Pilot design option).

All can be brought to market together, or in years difference. If Boing doesn’t Move I think they will bring it one after the other.
 
Ertro
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 10:09 am

Boeing puts out regularly information that has the purpose of making airlines hesitate signing papers to buying currently existing or future Airbus products and also has maybe even more important second target to boost company stock price making people on the street hyped about Boeing future products. Some of them in Press releases and others in more quiet informal ways for example talk about "widebody plane with narrowbody operating costs" and other like making people believe Airbus cannot make folding wingtips for some reason while Boeing can easily. Also that Boeing can make 2 completely new plane families with 3 versions of both with no problems but a single new wing is way too expensive endeavour for Airbus.

Airbus does not do that so much. Now it seems that they are actually starting to manufacture the prototypes of the wing so they have no choice than make press release about information that is going to come out anyway. This works also as a launch without being a launch. Now everybody can see that Airbus also is maybe capable of making folding wingtips and maybe a single new wing is not too expensive for Airbus to handle.

Actual products might come out after Boeing launches their NMA or if that takes too long or does not happen at all then Airbus can put out the new wing at their own terms whenever they see fit to do so. Customers and people on the street are being informed and maybe it makes sense to buy Airbus stock and not only Boeing because it is also Airbus that might have something in the future to look forward to.

This might also push Boeing to optimizing NMA into more niche corner of the market where there is less money on the table leaving Airbus bigger part of NMA market and then it is more easy for Airbus to counter that Boeing product by announcing a product that they were all the time planning to do anyway. Without this new wing prototype Boeing might design NMA so that it is more difficult for Airbus to counter.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 10:11 am

VV wrote:
Just Googled her and found an interview on Youtube.
It sounds like the wing for any future Airbus will remain in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnVk9vHQd1I

I didn't know Angie has a sister in the UK.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 10:23 am

Airbus is modernizing the A321neo to make it a family.
However at the same time I can imagine they do another A350-style narrow body or small widebody without any legacy restrictions. A bit like A330neo and A350 in parallel.
The main point is that new manufacturing and assembly require a different design from the very beginning and make signifikant tighter tolerances possible.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 am

Would this be a thick wing for slow speed again? I guess if Airbus intends to stretch the fuselage further all fuel in the wing would be good.
A 2,8 m fuselage stretch would bring the A321 to B757-200 length.
Are we sure this is meant as a MOM? I believe a wing optimised for A321 transcontinental would be good for a B757 length version on shorter routes.

I think it would be a mistake to focus on transatlantic.
How much folding wing can one add? If it's 2,5 m each side wing span is still only 40 m. That doesn't sound like a transatlantic plane to me.

As before:
Funny that planes have to be built for the airports, not airports for the planes.
Last edited by Sokes on Tue May 25, 2021 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus Backs Lightweight Wing to Preserve Its Lead Over Boeing

Tue May 25, 2021 10:31 am

Revelation wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Since you want to focus on this sub-topic, personally I'll say I think it'd be hard for the company to replicate the engineering talent elsewhere, but they've already shown they are happy to do manufacturing all over the world, including UK, EU, Canada, the US, and China.

If I had to guess, I'd say R&D and prototype manufacturing would continue in the UK going forward, but any new wing plant probably would land in some low cost corner of the EU, mainly to save cost, and also to avoid the in-fighting between the DE and FR stake holders.

An earlier thread had a suggestion of putting the plant right on the DE-FR border so the work force could flow in from both countries, but that seems fanciful to me.

Yes, they have under-utilized A380 wing factories in the UK, but IMO they are easy to write off and the cost of doing so is minor compared to the savings on labor that can be had for decades going forward.

A bold statement to make given the diplomatic input the UK has in Airbus, plus with a skilled workforce already in place AND as the UK govt has been keen to point out to every major manufacturer under the sun since Brexit, it is no longer held back by 'pesky' EU state aid rules (don't need to point to the irony of this given it was the UK that was the lead enforcer and proponent of implantation of said rules in the first place)

If it is experience that Airbus is after they could put a new wing factory in Tianjin, they have been making A320 wings there for several years now.

I won't touch the state aid comments.

DE and FR are large stake holders in Airbus, I think they will be the power brokers for the decision on where to set up the next large manufacturing facility.

I think CN comes with risk of trade issues so they will avoid that, and I think the "split the baby" decision process will end up with a plant somewhere in EU but not in DE or FR, but this is just my opinion.


Northern Ireland would be a very good option (aside from the latent troubles, but that does not belong here). There is skilled workforce and it is still part of the customs union, while also part of GB. Problem solved (setting aside the local politics which make everything a pain in the ass, but again, that does not belong here).

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos