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sxf24
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 9:37 pm

Vicenza wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If the contractual specs would not be met which I don't hope he could walk away. That is his right and not his fault.


Most contracts only allow termination for incredibly significant performance misses, like failure to perform certain missions within a broad payload tolerance. For typical performance shortfalls there are cash payments.


With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what the contract is between Emirates and Boeing, and 'most' really has no relevance whatsoever other than a pure guess, or hope.[/quote]

You’re right, none of us know the contracts specifics. What I do know is that Boeing would write a contact that allowed customers to terminate so easily. If EK or some other customer were able to terminate the contract, it would be a conditional sale and not recorded as an order or included in ASC606.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 10:10 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


Had a laugh at this. It's so easy to say behind the keyboard, isn't it? Best believe if EK threatened to "do what they like" regarding those 777X orders, several Boeing execs will need to have their underwear changed. Boeing is not included in the "everybody" here seeing as EK is one of the lifelines of that plane.

I think EK has already threatened to do what they like. The maximum is to cancel or not take delivery. Which Tim is clearly adamant on
 
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par13del
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 11:59 pm

Vicenza wrote:
par13del wrote:
So no pressure on the regulators who other than GE are responsible for the major certification changes being made to the a/c?
Sorta one sided....


How is there pressure on the regulators - they have no responsibility who Boeing sells to? Why imply, or make a point of 'suggesting' something which doesn't exist?

You missed the entire point of the post, so will leave it at that since certification has nothing to do with the customer purchasing the jet but everything to do with possible delays.
 
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zeke
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 1:45 am

I saw the video in the link the OP posted, I didn't see anything in there that was controversial, the written article I feel made it sounds more hyped up.

Typically every contract with Boeing will have a clause in it saying "Boeing will furnish to Buyer, as soon as practicable, flight test data obtained on an aircraft of the type purchased hereunder, certified as correct by Boeing, to evidence compliance with any performance guarantees set forth in this Agreement. Any Performance Guarantee will be deemed to be met if reasonable engineering interpretations and calculations based on such flight test data establish that the Aircraft would, if actually flown, comply with such guarantee."

TC is saying the aircraft has been flying for some time now, and they haven't got updates, this is unusual. Airlines will typically also have staff embedded in the manufacturers production facility keeping an eye on frames being built, often manufacturers use these staff to informally pass on good news back to the airline. It sounds like this is not being done either.

Performance guarantees include things like flight performance, takeoff performance, landing performance, "green" empty weight, CG, sound levels, configuration (like the number of doors or slides, maximum number of passengers), results from cold and hot weather testing, and the method these guarantees are determined to have been met. Typically when airlines go to pickup aircraft they will provide the crew with a tour and experience on the latest engineering simulators, these crews typically have flying members of management and it provides another opportunity to pass on the good news and an informal sales pitch.

Everyone on here knows Boeing has been very quiet on the 77X performance, compare the detail they provide for this program in public to the 787 or 737Max, we are after the original EIS and they have yet to state basic information like maximum payload, or a range payload curve.

I saying I like to use in situations like this is the absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence. That being said, there would have been a contractual requirement for Boeing to pass on the test flight data to the customer as it became available, and the customer is saying a year since the aircraft started flying they are not seeing the data.

What is particularly bizarre is the engine performance is specifically mentioned, unlike the aircraft, the GE9X is already certified, the TCDS has been issued. The engine data is available.

The simplest way Boeing could appease EK would be to hand over that data.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
rbavfan
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 3:33 am

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money


Really. Where is your proof that Tim said that he would have to go back to the government for money?
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:46 am

So the question becomes is Boeing withholding information from EK and other customers, and if so, why? Those inclined to dislike Boeing immediately jump to the conclusion the 779 is not hitting its performance guarantees. I find this unlikely as the majority of the assumed fuel savings will be GE9X related, and after some initial teething problems virtually all new engines go through, the reports I have seen are indicating the GE9X is hitting or exceeding all its key performance targets. The remainder of the fuel savings are related to the new wing and weight savings from the new composite panels in the wing.

Unless the 779 is grossly overweight I do not anticipate any of these being problems. I think the far more likely explanation is that after the MAX fiasco the regulatory environment has changed considerably. Both Boeing and the regulators are likely being ultra cautious, and until all regulatory hurdles are cleared Boeing is likely reluctant to release any data. Frankly, I would not blame them. As for EK, I think STC has an agenda that none of us are privy to. Are his comments solely directed at Boeing, at his Board, at the Banks or lessors? I have no idea. But at this point until data is released I would take his comments with a grain of salt.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:27 am

VV wrote:
Is Emirates willing to change their business model completely?

If they are willing to change then they can refuse the deliveries of the 777X and operate only 787 and A350-900.

The other option is to order a lot of A220.

Tim Clark says no they do not see need to change their model
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:28 am

rbavfan wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money


Really. Where is your proof that Tim said that he would have to go back to the government for money?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-04-21/
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:24 am

To me it would be the wrong attitude to fight customers in any way. The customer is always right. If his needs change, make him a better offer better tailored for what he needs now. These Middle Eastern airlines are spending billions in airplanes. Calling them U-turn something or whatever is arrogant and not the way to do business. And this is certainly not the style Boeing successfully does business globally.

Still the fact that STC is publicly complaining to NOT get enough information is remarkable. Such a huge customer has permanent engineering staff at Boeing.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:28 am

Again. They may even have the info he’s looking for. Or say with confidence as NAMS has not been done
 
chiad
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:46 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.


Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.

cedarjet wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Debatable. For example AA bought close to 800 Boeing and 450 MD aircraft.

Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).


Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion


Is it debateable that EK is a huge Boeing customer if they have 145 widebodies on order?
:idea:
 
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seahawk
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:05 am

sxf24 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If the contractual specs would not be met which I don't hope he could walk away. That is his right and not his fault.


Most contracts only allow termination for incredibly significant performance misses, like failure to perform certain missions within a broad payload tolerance. For typical performance shortfalls there are cash payments.


That depends on the contract. If I order a crane to lift prebuild parts at 10t 5 stories high and you deliver me one that can only do 9,9t, I will not take delivery of the crane because obviously I can not build my building without being able to lift the parts.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:16 am

chiad wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
DocLightning wrote:


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.


Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.

cedarjet wrote:
Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).


Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion


Is it debateable that EK is a huge Boeing customer if they have 145 widebodies on order?
:idea:


If Emirates canceled their 145 orders, could you say Boeing lost a tiny or medium-sized customer?
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:27 am

He is the biggest 777customer in history, isn't he?
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:29 am

Noshow wrote:
He is the biggest 777customer in history, isn't he?

He must be. If you add 777 and 777x orders you’re looking at 200-250 777s
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:50 am

Emirates has 145 777 in it's fleet. Toped out at 156 and has retired 45. That are 190 up to now, thereof 146 777-300ER, that makes them the biggest 777 customer Boeing has had.
Now they have 115 777-9 on order. I they take those, that would bring the number to 305.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 8:51 am

cedarjet wrote:
Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).

And the 777-200LR, which they tied with DL as the largest operator thereof.


dtw2hyd wrote:
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC

Which is not something that actually happened, so there's that....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
smartplane
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 10:45 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
So the question becomes is Boeing withholding information from EK and other customers, and if so, why? Those inclined to dislike Boeing immediately jump to the conclusion the 779 is not hitting its performance guarantees. I find this unlikely as the majority of the assumed fuel savings will be GE9X related, and after some initial teething problems virtually all new engines go through, the reports I have seen are indicating the GE9X is hitting or exceeding all its key performance targets. The remainder of the fuel savings are related to the new wing and weight savings from the new composite panels in the wing.

Unless the 779 is grossly overweight I do not anticipate any of these being problems. I think the far more likely explanation is that after the MAX fiasco the regulatory environment has changed considerably. Both Boeing and the regulators are likely being ultra cautious, and until all regulatory hurdles are cleared Boeing is likely reluctant to release any data. Frankly, I would not blame them. As for EK, I think STC has an agenda that none of us are privy to. Are his comments solely directed at Boeing, at his Board, at the Banks or lessors? I have no idea. But at this point until data is released I would take his comments with a grain of salt.

The fact STC claims that data is not being released, and Boeing haven't refuted his claims, or even published selected data to counter, suggests there is a data cone of silence at Boeing. Why would Boeing not be boasting if they have met or exceeded promises to shut the man up?

When at most 30 months from taking delivery of aircraft from your first tranche, the OEM's (air frame, engines, interior, etc) are looking for unconditional contracts. Financiers (excepting lessors), who previously took little or no interest in performance and acceptance flights are now appointing independent flight and engineering representatives, and view performance data.

Customers must certify OEM performance guarantees issued in support of the contract meet or exceed their expectations, supported by compensation (until performance guarantees are met), and include an exit clause in the event of significant, sustained under performance, namely the return of the aircraft with an agreed financial formula for use and depreciation. Which financiers and lessors hold sufficient information to have funded any of the current 777X customers, and are telling the World? No one has written any finance on the X, with the possible exception of Boeing Capital.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 11:31 am

Another point to view is boeing has not done fuel burn tests on this aircraft.

So it’s not like they’ve done it and kept quiet but they must have an idea of it’s fuel burn.

Also he says he has not received engine data from GE.

Can we also address that. Wouldn’t it be on GE to send I’m that information?

Have they also missed?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 11:47 am

Opus99 wrote:
Another point to view is boeing has not done fuel burn tests on this aircraft.

So it’s not like they’ve done it and kept quiet but they must have an idea of it’s fuel burn.

Also he says he has not received engine data from GE.

Can we also address that. Wouldn’t it be on GE to send I’m that information?

Have they also missed?


Do you really believe that Boeing is doing hundreds of test flights with numerous special instruments onboard to collect date, the only data not collected is fuel burn?
The third 777-9, flying since August 2020 is supposed to do propulsion performance tests.That is about 9 month to produce some numbers.

The big miss would be GE missing the specs with the GE9X.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Wed May 26, 2021 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 11:50 am

Noshow wrote:
He is the biggest 777customer in history, isn't he?


I gave examples of largest Boeing customers.

Let me try differently
If you order one coffee mocha every day and one guy walks-in and orders 100 x Pumpkin Spice Lattes, switches 25 and returns 10 after order is ready.
Who is the biggest customer. It is you, the one mocha a day regular no nuisance loyal customer.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 11:51 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Another point to view is boeing has not done fuel burn tests on this aircraft.

So it’s not like they’ve done it and kept quiet but they must have an idea of it’s fuel burn.

Also he says he has not received engine data from GE.

Can we also address that. Wouldn’t it be on GE to send I’m that information?

Have they also missed?


Do you really believe that Boeing is doing hundreds of test flights with numerous special instruments onboard to collect date, the only data not collected is fuel burn?

The big miss would be GE missing the specs with the GE9X.

They might know what it is. But the contractual NAMS testing to verify it has not been done is what I’m saying.

GE themselves say they are meeting performance and are happy with it.

Now has boeing built the plane THAT heavy? If so can it be rectified. This of course assuming they’ve indeed missed
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 12:21 pm

chiad wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
DocLightning wrote:


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.


Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.

cedarjet wrote:
Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).


Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion


Is it debateable that EK is a huge Boeing customer if they have 145 widebodies on order?
:idea:


It is not debatable.

And in that post dtw2hyd produces some strange numbers. 50 million on average for a 737, I doubt that SouthWest and RyanAir do pay that much.
On the other hand I doubt that a factory new 777 was ever available for 130 million, at least not in today's money.

WN 1080 737 at 30 million does 32.2 billion
RyanAir 598 737 at 30 million does 17.9 billion
and Emirates 190 777 at 250 million does 47.5 billion
IMO that are more reasonable numbers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 1:23 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
chiad wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.



Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion


Is it debateable that EK is a huge Boeing customer if they have 145 widebodies on order?
:idea:


It is not debatable.

And in that post dtw2hyd produces some strange numbers. 50 million on average for a 737, I doubt that SouthWest and RyanAir do pay that much.
On the other hand I doubt that a factory new 777 was ever available for 130 million, at least not in today's money.

WN 1080 737 at 30 million does 32.2 billion
RyanAir 598 737 at 30 million does 17.9 billion
and Emirates 190 777 at 250 million does 47.5 billion
IMO that are more reasonable numbers.


I checked Aircraft Values threads for several years, highest valued 77W is $161MM and 772ER $118MM,
$130 is what AI paid, India paid $200 for VVIP 77Ws.

If Tim paid $250MM for 77Ws, his employer need to have a chat.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 1:30 pm

Okay something is not adding up here:

Akbar on a live interview with simple flying now was asked if the 777X delays will affect his 777 retirement plans and he goes

"Boeing is not going to delay this aircraft any further and they will deliver it in 2022 not 2023"
 
Breathe
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 2:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Okay something is not adding up here:

Akbar on a live interview with simple flying now was asked if the 777X delays will affect his 777 retirement plans and he goes

"Boeing is not going to delay this aircraft any further and they will deliver it in 2022 not 2023"

It could be AAB playing mind games with Boeing. Maybe he knows they can't deliver the plan next year and will use it as a reason to claim compensation if the plane isn't delivered, claiming Boeing said the plane would be ready for 2022. The alternative is that he is genuinely relaying what Boeing have told him. :biggrin:
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 2:08 pm

Breathe wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Okay something is not adding up here:

Akbar on a live interview with simple flying now was asked if the 777X delays will affect his 777 retirement plans and he goes

"Boeing is not going to delay this aircraft any further and they will deliver it in 2022 not 2023"

It could be AAB playing mind games with Boeing. Maybe he knows they can't deliver the plan next year and will use it as a reason to claim compensation if the plane isn't delivered, claiming Boeing said the plane would be ready for 2022. The alternative is that he is genuinely relaying what Boeing have told him. :biggrin:

You know what’s weird. The last time he was asked he said late 2023. Now he says Boeing won’t delay the plane any further and actually it will be 2022 not 2023
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 3:31 pm

https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-777x-delivery/

There it is in writing
“I don’t think Boeing is going to delay this aeroplane beyond 2022 I think next year they will start delivering those aeroplanes and Qatar Airways will take deliveries of its aeroplanes when it is ready to be delivered.”
 
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keesje
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 4:44 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-777x-delivery/

There it is in writing
“I don’t think Boeing is going to delay this aeroplane beyond 2022 I think next year they will start delivering those aeroplanes and Qatar Airways will take deliveries of its aeroplanes when it is ready to be delivered.”


Then he would get them 2-3 years ealier than Tim Clark expects them.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflyi ... -2025/amp/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 4:46 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
So the question becomes is Boeing withholding information from EK and other customers, and if so, why? Those inclined to dislike Boeing immediately jump to the conclusion the 779 is not hitting its performance guarantees. I find this unlikely as the majority of the assumed fuel savings will be GE9X related, and after some initial teething problems virtually all new engines go through, the reports I have seen are indicating the GE9X is hitting or exceeding all its key performance targets. The remainder of the fuel savings are related to the new wing and weight savings from the new composite panels in the wing.

Unless the 779 is grossly overweight I do not anticipate any of these being problems. I think the far more likely explanation is that after the MAX fiasco the regulatory environment has changed considerably. Both Boeing and the regulators are likely being ultra cautious, and until all regulatory hurdles are cleared Boeing is likely reluctant to release any data. Frankly, I would not blame them. As for EK, I think STC has an agenda that none of us are privy to. Are his comments solely directed at Boeing, at his Board, at the Banks or lessors? I have no idea. But at this point until data is released I would take his comments with a grain of salt.


I think Boeing has found that the 77X certification is more like a clean sheet, reviews being done on all of the assumptions, revisiting the previous certification information. This will cause lots of data to change, but most likely only by a little, no point in publishing data that will be revised again.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 4:46 pm

Do AAB and possibly other X-customers get updated and visited as well this time or is this EK specific only?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 4:54 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Okay something is not adding up here:

Akbar on a live interview with simple flying now was asked if the 777X delays will affect his 777 retirement plans and he goes

"Boeing is not going to delay this aircraft any further and they will deliver it in 2022 not 2023"



Luckily this user stated following in this topic last year, post number 438. I suppose you can safely disregard the Simple Flying interview ;)

Opus99 wrote:
Simple flying has very unreliable articles full of errors


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437935&p=21999401&hilit=simple+simple+flying#p21999401
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 4:57 pm

keesje wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-777x-delivery/

There it is in writing
“I don’t think Boeing is going to delay this aeroplane beyond 2022 I think next year they will start delivering those aeroplanes and Qatar Airways will take deliveries of its aeroplanes when it is ready to be delivered.”


Then he would get them 2-3 years ealier than Tim Clark expects them.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflyi ... -2025/amp/

Full quote for full clarity:

“We should have had the first one in June of last year. And so far, we don’t have any visibility as to when the first one will arrive. It’s either the back end of 2023, 2024 or possibly even 2025.”

I think Boeing has said the current goal for EIS is 2023. Where EK falls in all of that is unknown, especially if we factor in the possible refusal of airplanes.

Noshow wrote:
Do AAB and possibly other X-customers get updated and visited as well this time or is this EK specific only?

Keesje's link also says:

Boeing also got in touch with Simple Flying with an update on the program. Altogether, the manufacturer remains focused on the project.

“We’re working closely with global regulators on all aspects of 777X development, including our rigorous test program. Our team remains focused on executing this comprehensive series of tests and conditions to demonstrate the safety and reliability of the airplane’s design. It is diligent, deliberate work and we are pleased with the progress to date. We also are providing regular updates to our launch customers.”
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Opus99
Posts: 2247
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Okay something is not adding up here:

Akbar on a live interview with simple flying now was asked if the 777X delays will affect his 777 retirement plans and he goes

"Boeing is not going to delay this aircraft any further and they will deliver it in 2022 not 2023"



Luckily this user stated following in this topic last year, post number 438. I suppose you can safely disregard the Simple Flying interview ;)

Opus99 wrote:
Simple flying has very unreliable articles full of errors


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437935&p=21999401&hilit=simple+simple+flying#p21999401

Oh come on stop trying to act daft. The article in there clearly made a reporting error from lack of research and they have many of those in simple flying. A broke clock is right twice a day.

The difference is. That quote I heard straight from Akbar’s mouth because I actually watched the live interview. But okay you do you!
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 964
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways-777x-delivery/

There it is in writing
“I don’t think Boeing is going to delay this aeroplane beyond 2022 I think next year they will start delivering those aeroplanes and Qatar Airways will take deliveries of its aeroplanes when it is ready to be delivered.”


Then he would get them 2-3 years ealier than Tim Clark expects them.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflyi ... -2025/amp/

Full quote for full clarity:

“We should have had the first one in June of last year. And so far, we don’t have any visibility as to when the first one will arrive. It’s either the back end of 2023, 2024 or possibly even 2025.”

I think Boeing has said the current goal for EIS is 2023. Where EK falls in all of that is unknown, especially if we factor in the possible refusal of airplanes.

Noshow wrote:
Do AAB and possibly other X-customers get updated and visited as well this time or is this EK specific only?

Keesje's link also says:

Boeing also got in touch with Simple Flying with an update on the program. Altogether, the manufacturer remains focused on the project.

“We’re working closely with global regulators on all aspects of 777X development, including our rigorous test program. Our team remains focused on executing this comprehensive series of tests and conditions to demonstrate the safety and reliability of the airplane’s design. It is diligent, deliberate work and we are pleased with the progress to date. We also are providing regular updates to our launch customers.”


Your last quote is quite telling. Boeing is stating they are providing regular updates to their launch customers. STC is claiming they are not receiving data. And yet more curious, I am not aware of any other launch customers complaining about a lack of data.

Somebody appears to be misrepresenting the facts. I wonder who.......
 
VV
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:19 pm

THere is one thing everyone forget.

If he refuses the 777X he won't be able to say, "Mine is bigger than yours' anymore.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:50 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Oh come on stop trying to act daft. The article in there clearly made a reporting error from lack of research and they have many of those in simple flying. A broke clock is right twice a day.

The difference is. That quote I heard straight from Akbar’s mouth because I actually watched the live interview. But okay you do you!

I'm pretty sure Simply Flying can copy/paste quotes from others correctly more often than not, it's their core competency. Beyond that, be very cautious.

ElroyJetson wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Keesje's link also says:

Boeing also got in touch with Simple Flying with an update on the program. Altogether, the manufacturer remains focused on the project.

“We’re working closely with global regulators on all aspects of 777X development, including our rigorous test program. Our team remains focused on executing this comprehensive series of tests and conditions to demonstrate the safety and reliability of the airplane’s design. It is diligent, deliberate work and we are pleased with the progress to date. We also are providing regular updates to our launch customers.”

Your last quote is quite telling. Boeing is stating they are providing regular updates to their launch customers. STC is claiming they are not receiving data. And yet more curious, I am not aware of any other launch customers complaining about a lack of data.

Somebody appears to be misrepresenting the facts. I wonder who.......

Kind of sad you raise the spectre of a chief of an airline that can't be trusted to speak truthfully in public... ;)

LOL, who knows who is right or wrong?

I think there's room for half-truths on both sides: Boeing is making "regular updates" to launch customers but these do not contain what STC wants to hear so he says he has no information at all.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Jetport
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 5:54 pm

Noshow wrote:
To me it would be the wrong attitude to fight customers in any way. The customer is always right. If his needs change, make him a better offer better tailored for what he needs now. These Middle Eastern airlines are spending billions in airplanes. Calling them U-turn something or whatever is arrogant and not the way to do business. And this is certainly not the style Boeing successfully does business globally.

Still the fact that STC is publicly complaining to NOT get enough information is remarkable. Such a huge customer has permanent engineering staff at Boeing.


Timmy Clark publicly complaining is NOT remarkable. Mr. Clark is a narcissistic blowhard, he complains publicly all the time about everything.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2247
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Oh come on stop trying to act daft. The article in there clearly made a reporting error from lack of research and they have many of those in simple flying. A broke clock is right twice a day.

The difference is. That quote I heard straight from Akbar’s mouth because I actually watched the live interview. But okay you do you!

I'm pretty sure Simply Flying can copy/paste quotes from others correctly more often than not, it's their core competency. Beyond that, be very cautious.

ElroyJetson wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Keesje's link also says:


Your last quote is quite telling. Boeing is stating they are providing regular updates to their launch customers. STC is claiming they are not receiving data. And yet more curious, I am not aware of any other launch customers complaining about a lack of data.

Somebody appears to be misrepresenting the facts. I wonder who.......

Kind of sad you raise the spectre of a chief of an airline that can't be trusted to speak truthfully in public... ;)

LOL, who knows who is right or wrong?

I think there's room for half-truths on both sides: Boeing is making "regular updates" to launch customers but these do not contain what STC wants to hear so he says he has no information at all.

Simple flying were even the interviewers!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:11 pm

Noshow wrote:
The customer is always right.


Until they are not. At some point walking out is the best sale.

Tim is not the only one running business in aviation, Boeing, Airbus, suppliers and other airlines are also businesses. They have look after their own bottom line.
All posts are just opinions.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:25 pm

Jetport wrote:
Noshow wrote:
To me it would be the wrong attitude to fight customers in any way. The customer is always right. If his needs change, make him a better offer better tailored for what he needs now. These Middle Eastern airlines are spending billions in airplanes. Calling them U-turn something or whatever is arrogant and not the way to do business. And this is certainly not the style Boeing successfully does business globally.

Still the fact that STC is publicly complaining to NOT get enough information is remarkable. Such a huge customer has permanent engineering staff at Boeing.


Timmy Clark publicly complaining is NOT remarkable. Mr. Clark is a narcissistic blowhard, he complains publicly all the time about everything.


And he is definitely not the only one. My boss always said to me explicitly: the customer is king !
I have built production facilities in many countries for more than two decades and some customers have treated me and my colleagues like dirt. We always kept a smile on our faces and at the end of the day we achieved what we wanted, the final check.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:40 pm

VV wrote:
THere is one thing everyone forget.

If he refuses the 777X he won't be able to say, "Mine is bigger than yours' anymore.


I beg your pardon ? No other airline has as many A380s in their fleet as Emirates and they can claim for 10+ years "Mine is bigger than yours"
 
Opus99
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:46 pm

Akbar today also said the 777X will be 18-20% more efficient than the current 777. Whilst saying he will again of course take them once they are ready. Again I’m just putting this out there. It could just be marketing fluff. But for someone like him not to complain the way Clark is complaining it’s interesting that’s all. And we all know AAB can kick a fuss.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 6:53 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Somebody appears to be misrepresenting the facts. I wonder who.......


No, they could both be absolutely correct. Boeing can be updating the launch customers on a regular basis, while Emirates may not have received data that they want. The two are not mutually exclusive. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:11 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Akbar today also said the 777X will be 18-20% more efficient than the current 777. Whilst saying he will again of course take them once they are ready. Again I’m just putting this out there. It could just be marketing fluff. But for someone like him not to complain the way Clark is complaining it’s interesting that’s all. And we all know AAB can kick a fuss.


IMO it`s simply marketing fluff. He`s not complaining because of simple reasons ( political stuff is forbidden here )
Why for example he is not ready to take the three A350-1000 sitting in Toulouse for some time ? Airbus only needs to bolt the engines on the frames and the test flights could start !
 
VV
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:11 pm

oldJoe wrote:
VV wrote:
THere is one thing everyone forget.

If he refuses the 777X he won't be able to say, "Mine is bigger than yours' anymore.


I beg your pardon ? No other airline has as many A380s in their fleet as Emirates and they can claim for 10+ years "Mine is bigger than yours"


If he can afford keeping those aircraft so long.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:15 pm

VV wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
VV wrote:
THere is one thing everyone forget.

If he refuses the 777X he won't be able to say, "Mine is bigger than yours' anymore.


I beg your pardon ? No other airline has as many A380s in their fleet as Emirates and they can claim for 10+ years "Mine is bigger than yours"


If he can afford keeping those aircraft so long.


What would be cheaper ? Keep the A380`s ( you know he has no other choice ) or park or scrap them and spend billions on 777X ? Can he afford this ?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26310
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:24 pm

oldJoe wrote:
VV wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
I beg your pardon ? No other airline has as many A380s in their fleet as Emirates and they can claim for 10+ years "Mine is bigger than yours"

If he can afford keeping those aircraft so long.

What would be cheaper ? Keep the A380`s ( you know he has no other choice ) or park or scrap them and spend billions on 777X ? Can he afford this ?

He very well could keep the Whales, abandon or defer the 777Xs, wait in the queue for a few years for the A350s and 787s to arrive while his competitors beat his backside with lower CASM and better yield due to having the right planes on the right routes.

No wonder STC needs to vent in public, he's painted himself into a corner.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Opus99
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:26 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Akbar today also said the 777X will be 18-20% more efficient than the current 777. Whilst saying he will again of course take them once they are ready. Again I’m just putting this out there. It could just be marketing fluff. But for someone like him not to complain the way Clark is complaining it’s interesting that’s all. And we all know AAB can kick a fuss.


IMO it`s simply marketing fluff. He`s not complaining because of simple reasons ( political stuff is forbidden here )
Why for example he is not ready to take the three A350-1000 sitting in Toulouse for some time ? Airbus only needs to bolt the engines on the frames and the test flights could start !

I mean. He’s not taking the 787s either
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Wed May 26, 2021 7:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The customer is always right.


Until they are not. At some point walking out is the best sale.

Tim is not the only one running business in aviation, Boeing, Airbus, suppliers and other airlines are also businesses. They have look after their own bottom line.

The 777X program is dead without Emirates. They account for more than one third of the order book and there may be airlines that wont be good for the frames they have on order. One is Etihad.

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