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xwb777
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Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 11:38 am

In a pre-recorded online interview with John Strickland at the Arabian Travel Market trade show in Dubai, Sir Tim Clark has warned Boeing that Emirates will refuse and not accept any B7779 if Boeing does not meet its contractual commitments.

Emirates was supposed to receive the first example last July, and now doubts that the first delivery will be in 2024 although boeing has told them that it will be late 2023.

The delay for Emirates means that the airline has no current and solid visibility on how it will replace the current B777-300ER fleet.

Clark has also criticized Boeing on overpromising and not getting it right with the B737MAX and B777X

Does he mean by refusing delivery that he will be switching the entire B779 order to the B787 or ordering from Airbus?


Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-05-24/
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 11:49 am

He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?
 
avier
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 11:56 am

xwb777 wrote:
Does he mean by refusing delivery that he will be switching the entire B779 order to the B787 or ordering from Airbus?

Sounds more like an escape plan from taking those planes, without penalties. I'm guessing other such large airlines are going to trim their order books for the 77X, and instead have it converted to 787's and such.
At this point, he sounds like AAB of QR.
 
mcdu
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 11:57 am

Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


I don’t think I’m tired of hearing him. It’s one thing when the people of anet take strong positions on whether Boeing quality has been shaken. It’s quiet another when you have a CEO from a huge Boeing customer making statements on Boeing and their quality control/development issues. The CEO’s make the business decisions and write the checks. This should concern Boeing. It may be negotiating in public and if so it shows a rift in relations otherwise the two would not publicly comment.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 11:59 am

Didn't Boeing send one 777-9 to Dubai for EK testing recently? How did that work out?
What is the issue? Not enough range? Most things can be rectified.
Last edited by Noshow on Mon May 24, 2021 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smartplane
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:02 pm

xwb777 wrote:
In a pre-recorded online interview with John Strickland at the Arabian Travel Market trade show in Dubai, Sir Tim Clark has warned Boeing that Emirates will refuse and not accept any B7779 if Boeing does not meet its contractual commitments.

Emirates was supposed to receive the first example last July, and now doubts that the first delivery will be in 2024 although boeing has told them that it will be late 2023.

The delay for Emirates means that the airline has no current and solid visibility on how it will replace the current B777-300ER fleet.

Clark has also criticized Boeing on overpromising and not getting it right with the B737MAX and B777X

Does he mean by refusing delivery that he will be switching the entire B779 order to the B787 or ordering from Airbus?


Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-05-24/

Possibly one or all of the above.

By end 1Q22, Boeing would expect every customer to have at least one tranche go unconditional, if on target for first deliveries 4Q23. A precursor for that would be firm delivery dates, and firm launch and plus one year performance data, all supported by meaningful penalties.

When Boeing firm, it forces customers to make decisions, and commence milestone payments, which may result in cancellations, influencing internal and other customer decisions on the model family. While Boeing remain fluid, and undertake visible, but minimal development, it delays these hard decisions to more of a post-COVID world, when outcomes will hopefully be more positive.

Wonder if GE is part of the delay, or whether they too are losing patience with progress?
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:10 pm

Noshow wrote:
Didn't Boeing send one 777-9 to Dubai for EK testing recently? How did that work out?
What is the issue? Not enough range? Most things can be rectified.

They haven’t even sent it yet
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:13 pm

mcdu wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


I don’t think I’m tired of hearing him. It’s one thing when the people of anet take strong positions on whether Boeing quality has been shaken. It’s quiet another when you have a CEO from a huge Boeing customer making statements on Boeing and their quality control/development issues. The CEO’s make the business decisions and write the checks. This should concern Boeing. It may be negotiating in public and if so it shows a rift in relations otherwise the two would not publicly comment.

Nobody is in doubt about the quality at Boeing or lack there of. My thing is he’s going on and on and on. Then he should cancel it and buy a 350-1000 or something at this point he will get it quicker than the 777X so it seems.

I imagine they can pull out with no fees. Smartplane can correct me if I’m wrong because his public negotiations are tiring.
 
SRJ94AB
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:40 pm

Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore. What a ridiculous ego for a guy running a socialist airline. I really hope he goes away soon. This is the only guy in the world who thinks the A380 was a good aircraft, that should tell us everything we need to know about him.


The A380 works for emirates. He claimed a little while back that pre COVID it brought in 85 percent of their profits. Yes it’s too large for most other carriers to fill but when you look at Emirates and their whole Dubai hub model it makes sense for them.

https://simpleflying.com/emirates-a380-profits/
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:44 pm

mcdu wrote:
huge Boeing customer


Debatable. For example AA bought close to 800 Boeing and 450 MD aircraft.
All posts are just opinions.
 
mig17
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:47 pm

It seems the negociation between EK and Boeing on the 77X aren't going well fot Tim Clark to again publicly remind Boeing "this isn't the aircraft we ordered".

The reason EK don't want the plane anymore maybe internal (they have overordered in both quantity an capacity and their is a huge world crisis), Boeing is not in a good negociation position because of 77X troubles and doesn't integrate it when speacking with it's largest customer.

At this point, EK can simply cancell the entire contract "for free" if they want to. Do they? Maybe soon if Boeing doesn't change course fast ...
A30B IW/TG, A313 EK, A318/9/20/1 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A35K QR, A388 AF, AT72 A5/TX, B722 AT, B734/8 UX/SK/TO/SS, B742/3/4 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, B762 UA, B77E/W AF/QR, C-150/72, CRJ1/7/X A5, E145/70/90 A5/WF, DH8D WF, PC-6.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 12:49 pm

Any customer is king and STC is certainly one of the better informed more strategic and balanced senior airline executives you can deal with. EK IS a big customer and ordered so many 777-300ER so they are perfectly entitled to demand to get what they ordered. Instead of starting to blame or insult Clark now it would be the moment for some diplomat to enquire what is wrong and have changes applied where necessary. Hopefully it will work this way.
Could they want to scale down their airliner sizes at the same time? Sure.
 
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par13del
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:02 pm

So no pressure on the regulators who other than GE are responsible for the major certification changes being made to the a/c?
Sorta one sided....
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:04 pm

My thing is whatever Boeing doesn’t want to show. They have two years to rectify it. Clark is barking, nobody else is saying anything other than when the jet is ready we will take it. If they brought the plane today will he take it? Even if Boeing has missed some performance, would it be more than what OEMs usually miss by? He should cancel it. I don’t know why he’s making so much noise.

Why is he the only one complaining. Is it something to do with Dubai conditions. Maybe the capabilities are not as good in his conditions? It is strange but he’s actually the only one making this much noise
 
mig17
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:14 pm

Opus99 wrote:
My thing is whatever Boeing doesn’t want to show. They have two years to rectify it.

That may not be true. The 777-X is both 4 years late and appears to be currently of target promised to EK.

To agree with those delay and compromise, EK is asking for compensations beyound contract that Boeing apparently isn't offering ... If Boeing and EK doesn't find an arrangement soon, the order is gone. Boeing doesn't have 2 years to fix anything yet until an agreement is find.
Last edited by mig17 on Mon May 24, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A30B IW/TG, A313 EK, A318/9/20/1 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A35K QR, A388 AF, AT72 A5/TX, B722 AT, B734/8 UX/SK/TO/SS, B742/3/4 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, B762 UA, B77E/W AF/QR, C-150/72, CRJ1/7/X A5, E145/70/90 A5/WF, DH8D WF, PC-6.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:18 pm

Obviously, world situation has changed after they ordered these planes. Back then... they needed a lot of capacity. Now, if they have an option to get out of orders, they will surely try to use that. In fact, it would be irresponsible to not do so.

Of course, we are not privy to the details in the contracts -- there's likely complex rules about what counts as a promise and how different levels of failing to meet the promises can be dealt with. We are also not privy to the actual details wrt Boeing's ability to fulfil the promises. And, perhaps most importantly, we don't know what negotiations are going on. In the end everything is agreed, somehow. The relative bargaining power of the parties determines how much each party "loses" or "wins".

But, EK has an advantage here, much like the MAX customers had an advantage in being able to withhold payments or accept delivery, based on either the problems or the changed delivery timing.

It will be interesting. I suspect this won't be resolved soon, at least not entirely.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:18 pm

If you commit your companies future to a set of parameters and the manufacturer stays silent for a looong time then you can make all the noise you want.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:19 pm

Without offending anyone, just a question to debate:
Could Boeing have any interest to lose EK's order now maybe being able to halt the program altogether or delay it some more years?
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:20 pm

mig17 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
My thing is whatever Boeing doesn’t want to show. They have two years to rectify it.

That may not be true. The 777-X is both 4 years late and appears to be currently of target promised to EK.

To agree with those delay and compromuse, EK is asking for compensations that Boeing apparently isn't offering ... If Boeing and EK doesn't find an arrangement soon, the order is gone. Boeing doesn't have 2 years to fux anything yet until an agreement is find.

Then again that is if. Other carriers seem to have no problems. So it becomes a matter just talking trash to get out of the deal because he’s ordered too much or is this going how programs just usually go from a performance perspective. Where initial performance isn’t quite there yet but gets there eventually and he’s throwing a hissy fit
 
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spinotter
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:24 pm

"if Boeing does not meet its contractual commitments" If the first delivery was supposed to be last July, hasn't Boeing already violated its contractual commitments? How much has EK already paid? Shouldn't they be able to cancel and get all their deposits back (if any) right now? If so, is this just some sort of public drama making?
 
mig17
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:29 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
My thing is whatever Boeing doesn’t want to show. They have two years to rectify it.

That may not be true. The 777-X is both 4 years late and appears to be currently of target promised to EK.

To agree with those delay and compromuse, EK is asking for compensations that Boeing apparently isn't offering ... If Boeing and EK doesn't find an arrangement soon, the order is gone. Boeing doesn't have 2 years to fux anything yet until an agreement is find.

Then again that is if. Other carriers seem to have no problems. So it becomes a matter just talking trash to get out of the deal because he’s ordered too much or is this going how programs just usually go from a performance perspective. Where initial performance isn’t quite there yet but gets there eventually and he’s throwing a hissy fit

At the exception of SQ who obviously find the performances great, or are they doing a A350 United (that United isn't doing by the way), the other carrier are saying nothing but defering for now. That adress Boeing delays, but we don't know what they know or think avout the performances.
A30B IW/TG, A313 EK, A318/9/20/1 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A35K QR, A388 AF, AT72 A5/TX, B722 AT, B734/8 UX/SK/TO/SS, B742/3/4 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, B762 UA, B77E/W AF/QR, C-150/72, CRJ1/7/X A5, E145/70/90 A5/WF, DH8D WF, PC-6.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:32 pm

mig17 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
That may not be true. The 777-X is both 4 years late and appears to be currently of target promised to EK.

To agree with those delay and compromuse, EK is asking for compensations that Boeing apparently isn't offering ... If Boeing and EK doesn't find an arrangement soon, the order is gone. Boeing doesn't have 2 years to fux anything yet until an agreement is find.

Then again that is if. Other carriers seem to have no problems. So it becomes a matter just talking trash to get out of the deal because he’s ordered too much or is this going how programs just usually go from a performance perspective. Where initial performance isn’t quite there yet but gets there eventually and he’s throwing a hissy fit

Other carriers:
At the exception of SQ who obviously find the performances great. Or are they doing a A350 United (that 7nited isn't doing by the way), the other carrier are saying nothing but defering for now. That adress Boeing delays, but we don't know what they know or think avout the performances.

Not even in terms of orders Moreso around what they say. LH says they’ll take it in 2023. It’s the right plane for them at the time. QR says they’ll take theirs. CX is reducing order between 10-15 even though I don’t think they need it honestly. But he’s the only one going on. But he’s also the only one that ordered an amount that doesn’t make sense. So it’s interesting
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:52 pm

How expensive would it be to get another 5 years use out of those 380s? LH tends to run a plane until it is scrapper time.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:53 pm

a way to delay its order
 
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scbriml
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 1:57 pm

Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore.


May I introduce Michael O'Leary, self-styled raper of Boeing. :sarcastic:

When you spend billions of dollars with Boeing, you get to complain as much as you want and Boeing has no choice but to take it. Same with Airbus.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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keesje
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:05 pm

Probably Airbus presented EK an aggresive A350-900/A350-950F/A350-1000 scenario, proposal.

Fleet development ran the numbers and now Sir Tim is scratching his head.

Boeing 777X certification fall-out, schedule risk doesn’t help.
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2021/04/08/99323838.html
Last edited by keesje on Mon May 24, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


I also think he should do what he says.

He also need to order a lot of A350-1000 now in case he refuses the 777X delivery later on.
After all, he will need a lot of capacity when those A380 and 777-300ER retire.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:13 pm

VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


I also think he should do what he says.

He also need to order a lot of A350-1000 now in case he refuses the 777X delivery later on.
After all, he will need a lot of capacity when those A380 and 777-300ER retire.

That requires him to put his money where his mouth is. And he can’t seem to do that
 
TC957
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore.


May I introduce Michael O'Leary, self-styled raper of Boeing. :sarcastic:

When you spend billions of dollars with Boeing, you get to complain as much as you want and Boeing has no choice but to take it. Same with Airbus.

Exactly....In any company, your biggest clients are the most demanding and rightly so.....it's called business.
Not STC's fault if Boeing can't deliver what they promised.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:22 pm

TC957 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore.


May I introduce Michael O'Leary, self-styled raper of Boeing. :sarcastic:

When you spend billions of dollars with Boeing, you get to complain as much as you want and Boeing has no choice but to take it. Same with Airbus.

Exactly....In any company, your biggest clients are the most demanding and rightly so.....it's called business.
Not STC's fault if Boeing can't deliver what they promised.

Whoever really does?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:38 pm

keesje wrote:
Probably Airbus presented EK an aggresive A350-900/A350-950F/A350-1000 scenario, proposal.

Fleet development ran the numbers and now Sir Tim is scratching his head.

Boeing 777X certification fall-out, schedule risk doesn’t help.
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2021/04/08/99323838.html


Good for Airbus. What is stopping STC from another U-Turn?

Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.
All posts are just opinions.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:44 pm

U.S. courts handle business contract disputes every day. See you in court, Mr. Clark. Interest and penalties. Post a bond if you want to appeal.
 
VV
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:52 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general

Secondly. Will he be there to refuse it? I thought he was retiring?


I also think he should do what he says.

He also need to order a lot of A350-1000 now in case he refuses the 777X delivery later on.
After all, he will need a lot of capacity when those A380 and 777-300ER retire.

That requires him to put his money where his mouth is. And he can’t seem to do that


Maybe he starts to regret cancelling the A350-1000 he ordered in 2007.
 
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keesje
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 2:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
U.S. courts handle business contract disputes every day. See you in court, Mr. Clark. Interest and penalties. Post a bond if you want to appeal.


Something Boeing and Airbus will never do with Emirates, BA or United. It ruins relations and future order prospects and shows the rest of the industry what a supplier you really are, and maybe should avoid. Clark cancelled a huge A350 order 7 years ago and Airbus had to accept, to keep the future open.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Polot
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:04 pm

keesje wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
U.S. courts handle business contract disputes every day. See you in court, Mr. Clark. Interest and penalties. Post a bond if you want to appeal.


Something Boeing and Airbus will never do with Emirates, BA or United. It ruins relations and future order prospects and shows the rest of the industry what a supplier you really are, and maybe should avoid. Clark cancelled a huge A350 order 7 years ago and Airbus had to accept, to keep the future open.

That is not a contract dispute. Airlines have the right to cancel at any time, they just have to pay whatever penalties, if any, outlined in the contract. Airbus “accepted” it because EK paid the penalties (if any) or negotiated a settlement with Airbus (eg changes with A380 contracts to lessen Airbus’s financial pain) prior to public announcement of cancellation.

If Boeing has planes ready for delivery but EK is prolonging and refusing delivery (and doesn’t want to pay penalties to cancel, which is the underlying suggestion) then you have a contract dispute. Part of the dispute would be determining what is the appropriate penalties both parties have (EK for refusing delivery, Boeing for not fully meeting contractual requirements). Eventually both sides come to a settlement they all agree with.

Airbus/Boeing have lawyers doing this all the time (and COVID has given them plenty of work), it is usually not public though.
Last edited by Polot on Mon May 24, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:21 pm

Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general


TC is not AAB. TC is an Englishman and usually quite reserved in his public comments.

But even Mr. Clark has his limits and Boeing's repeated inability to produce aircraft on any reasonable schedule has pushed him to those limits.

Something has been very rotten at Boeing since the mid-'00s. First the 787 debacle, then the 737 MAX debacle, and now this derivative 777 that is somehow already in test flights will take another 2-3 years to deliver?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:29 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general


TC is not AAB. TC is an Englishman and usually quite reserved in his public comments.

But even Mr. Clark has his limits and Boeing's repeated inability to produce aircraft on any reasonable schedule has pushed him to those limits.

Something has been very rotten at Boeing since the mid-'00s. First the 787 debacle, then the 737 MAX debacle, and now this derivative 777 that is somehow already in test flights will take another 2-3 years to deliver?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.

Its not a matter of somehow. Regulation was changed when the aitcraft already started flying. That aircraft would've probably been in service by now if the MAX debacle didn't happen but that would require Boeing to have done the max properly in the first place which they could have.

I have no arguments against Boeing as of late honestly, but i mean he should go and talk to them, what is coming out here to shout going to do for him? or anybody?

Which is why its clearly a negotiating tactic. Like i said if he's as angry as he's huffing and puffing, he should cancel the aircraft. Its not as if he hasn't cancelled aircrafts before.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
mcdu wrote:
huge Boeing customer


Debatable. For example AA bought close to 800 Boeing and 450 MD aircraft.

Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:34 pm

Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9652
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:40 pm

Opus99 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He should do whichever he likes honestly. I think everybody is tired of just hearing him in general


TC is not AAB. TC is an Englishman and usually quite reserved in his public comments.

But even Mr. Clark has his limits and Boeing's repeated inability to produce aircraft on any reasonable schedule has pushed him to those limits.

Something has been very rotten at Boeing since the mid-'00s. First the 787 debacle, then the 737 MAX debacle, and now this derivative 777 that is somehow already in test flights will take another 2-3 years to deliver?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.

Its not a matter of somehow. Regulation was changed when the aitcraft already started flying. That aircraft would've probably been in service by now if the MAX debacle didn't happen but that would require Boeing to have done the max properly in the first place which they could have.

I have no arguments against Boeing as of late honestly, but i mean he should go and talk to them, what is coming out here to shout going to do for him? or anybody?

Which is why its clearly a negotiating tactic. Like i said if he's as angry as he's huffing and puffing, he should cancel the aircraft. Its not as if he hasn't cancelled aircrafts before.


Regulations were not changed, enforcement of regulation was changed. Big difference.

Tim Clark has been complaining about Boeing not talking about Data for the 777-9. When you ignore your customers, they talk to the press when they get frustrated.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2223
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2223
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 3:43 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

TC is not AAB. TC is an Englishman and usually quite reserved in his public comments.

But even Mr. Clark has his limits and Boeing's repeated inability to produce aircraft on any reasonable schedule has pushed him to those limits.

Something has been very rotten at Boeing since the mid-'00s. First the 787 debacle, then the 737 MAX debacle, and now this derivative 777 that is somehow already in test flights will take another 2-3 years to deliver?



What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.

Its not a matter of somehow. Regulation was changed when the aitcraft already started flying. That aircraft would've probably been in service by now if the MAX debacle didn't happen but that would require Boeing to have done the max properly in the first place which they could have.

I have no arguments against Boeing as of late honestly, but i mean he should go and talk to them, what is coming out here to shout going to do for him? or anybody?

Which is why its clearly a negotiating tactic. Like i said if he's as angry as he's huffing and puffing, he should cancel the aircraft. Its not as if he hasn't cancelled aircrafts before.


Regulations were not changed, enforcement of regulation was changed. Big difference.

Tim Clark has been complaining about Boeing not talking about Data for the 777-9. When you ignore your customers, they talk to the press when they get frustrated.

I mean, it depends on the way you want to describe enforced. EASA says Boeing should alter the fly by wire system to match something similar to what they know? Something that works perfectly fine ? Please.

Also the rules are currently changing which is part of why Boeing cannot guarantee a date.

Tim Clark should go and talk to EASA
 
HL300B4
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 5:42 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:03 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


Everybody else is content so far because of that little thing called Covid19. They are happy not to have to pay for planed they cannot fill right now.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9060
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:08 pm

DocLightning wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.


Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.

cedarjet wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
mcdu wrote:
huge Boeing customer


Debatable. For example AA bought close to 800 Boeing and 450 MD aircraft.

Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).


Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion
All posts are just opinions.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4934
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:16 pm

Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore. What a ridiculous ego for a guy running a socialist airline. I really hope he goes away soon. This is the only guy in the world who thinks the A380 was a good aircraft, that should tell us everything we need to know about him.

He's clearly not the only guy who saw a niche for the A380z Singapore, Qatar, Etihad, QANTAS, British Airways, Korean Air, Asiana, China Southern and All Nippon all bought the aircraft, which would still be flying for years even if no longer being built were it not for COVID.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:30 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


I will be a little bit careful regarding this. We just do not know, if other customers are not also complaining but behind closed doors. Regular, to complain so openly, is the very last step and the really last warning to a company. We have seen it with Airbus and Leonardo and the tail fins for the A220, when they have been informed regarding forgotten parts and tools in the fins by workers in Montreal. And we will not know, if the jets do not fulfill the guaranteed conditions, the airlines will still take them up or perhaps will NTU the first one/ones, as LH has done as example with their first B747-8.

And I can understand Clarke. Emirates is the biggest B777 customer and these will have to be replaced according Emirates plans, there is a reason, why they have placed the biggest B777X order. If they have to recognize in 4 years, that the 777X are further delayed and that the jets will additional have a big penalty with overweight e.g.; this can kill the whole business plan of them, it can kill Emirates. If Emirates have to change the business plan and to order a replacement for the B777X, they have to do it now.

They do not want to end as "next Norwegian", who have been killed by Boeing. It can be discussed, if their business plan was the best or if it would have worked; but with the B787 and the MAX disaster (which has harmed Norwegian of all airlines most), the business plan has had never a chance.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 572
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:31 pm

That ANA - ALL NIPPON order was only made in response to keep DELTA out of a deal with JAL if memory serves me right.... ANA had no real plans for the A380 hence why they only got 3

skipness1E wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore. What a ridiculous ego for a guy running a socialist airline. I really hope he goes away soon. This is the only guy in the world who thinks the A380 was a good aircraft, that should tell us everything we need to know about him.

He's clearly not the only guy who saw a niche for the A380z Singapore, Qatar, Etihad, QANTAS, British Airways, Korean Air, Asiana, China Southern and All Nippon all bought the aircraft, which would still be flying for years even if no longer being built were it not for COVID.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4608
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:33 pm

There is literally no problem here whatsoever if Boeing builds an aircraft that meets or exceeds the performance guarentees in the Emirates contract.

If they do build an aircraft that fails to meet contractual guarentees and Emirates does refuse delivery then the fact that Boeing designed and optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions will really come back to bite them....
First to fly the 787-9
 
Opus99
Posts: 2223
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
There is literally no problem here whatsoever if Boeing builds an aircraft that meets or exceeds the performance guarentees in the Emirates contract.

If they do build an aircraft that fails to meet contractual guarentees and Emirates does refuse delivery then the fact that Boeing designed and optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions will really come back to bite them....

But that’s also my question. Is the Emirates guarantee the same as everybody else’s guarantee?

Anyway. If it’s a matter of weight they can work it out. The video on Reuters linked below

Says Clark says he hasn’t seen any engine data from the 777X or any engine data from April 2018

How is that possible?

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1396 ... 79141?s=21
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:41 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Emirates was supposed to receive the first example last July, and now doubts that the first delivery will be in 2024 although boeing has told them that it will be late 2023.

That's not what the article says.

Emirates, who was supposed to receive its first last July, doubts it will start receiving the jets until 2024 though Boeing had told them it would come in the back end of 2023, Clark said.

So 2023 is subject to doubt, not 2024.

Avgeek21 wrote:
If you commit your companies future to a set of parameters and the manufacturer stays silent for a looong time then you can make all the noise you want.

And if you are the supplier, your best move is to remain silent. Note how Airbus stayed silent when AAB kept complaining about carpets. There's no upside to getting into a public spat with a customer.

Opus99 wrote:
I mean, it depends on the way you want to describe enforced. EASA says Boeing should alter the fly by wire system to match something similar to what they know? Something that works perfectly fine ? Please.

Also the rules are currently changing which is part of why Boeing cannot guarantee a date.

Tim Clark should go and talk to EASA

The only concrete info I am aware of is:

Boeing’s latest 777X delay results partly from modifications Boeing is making to the jet’s design, including to actuator controls, so as to meet regulators’ “expectations”.

The company is “making prudent design modifications as necessary”, Boeing chief executive David Calhoun says of the 777X development programme.

Boeing is working on “firmware and hardware changes” involving actuator controls, Calhoun adds, saying the move “reflects expectations of global regulators”.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 51.article

Also:

But last year Calhoun said Boeing’s 777X development and certification would reflect “learnings” from the 737 Max’s certification.

So it seems there are some amount of actual design changes, along with "learnings" and "reflections" of "expectations" with regard to "global regulators”.

The careful selection of words should tell us that this is a sensitive area.

Muilenberg's firing shortly after FAA Chief Dickson literally called him on the carpet in his DC office should tell us a lot as well.

The delay is mainly about mending relations with the regulators, IMO.

Lots of "i's" are being dotted and "t's" are being crossed.

Hopefully the baby is not being tossed out with the bath water.
Last edited by Revelation on Mon May 24, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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