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nine4nine
Posts: 907
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 4:04 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.



This line of thinking is exactly why society is headed in the direction it’s going. Never hold the person who commits the act of violence/crime fully accountable, a slap on the wrist and call it a day. What a joke.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 4:31 pm

In the meantime in Europe I can't even fly 100 miles without the obligation of a negative covid test plus many days in quarantine. Why would you physically attack a crew member? Why don't you appreciate the fact that you can still travel through the air?
 
swaluvfa
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 1:59 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 5:45 pm

MDC862 wrote:
What is it that the airline employees say, that this all started ramping up with the "stimi-money people?"


Because it’s true.....
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm

kalvado wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
There is a difference between a ban as a result of the legal process in a court of law and an at-will ban by the airline people advocate, where a passenger may - or may not - even have a chance to defend themselves.
DHS tried something similar and was heavily criticized. The airline will just be sued out of existence after a few screwups - and rightly so.


Any private business (like WN) has the right to refuse service to any customer for their actions as long as it is not based on bias against a federally protected class of people. Good luck winning cases like these.

Bans imposed after a passenger was convicted in common court may be defensible. Without that... good luck.
It will boil down to "common carrier" status, "reasonable" ban - and by the time ACLU brings the case to SCOTUS airline would have enough negative publicity to just collapse under its own weight.


At the end of the day, an airline is still a non-government owned company. As long as their behavior isn't discriminatory, they can ban whomever they want. No different than bars that ban patrons who get into fights, retail stores that ban people who shoplift, restaurants that ban patrons for doing the dine-and-dash, stadiums that ban fans for throwing things during sporting events, etc.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 6:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
"Seething at home" IMO comes from the blame culture that most media sources of all political ilks push to gain ratings and thus advertising revenue. The rest IMO largely comes from bad parenting. A person should lose this kind of attitude early in life, never mind still have it on full display at age 28.


Totally agree; even now, I see parents watching passively while one of their brats screams, throws things in public, breaks things, and its, '' oh, they're ok, just a bit upset.'' And the parent gives them whatever it is they want. Riiight. What they need is a good, old fashioned paddling. And now, you see these 28 year old (2 year olds) acting out again. But we've got this thing, oh corporal punishment is awful, you can't do that to a child!!! What nonsense. Yes, you can, and you should. It's part of development, growing up, respecting parental authority. Plus, doing the right things later in life. And the phrase, ''just you wait until your father (or mother) gets home!!'' should again strike concern in little misbehaving hearts.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 6:46 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
You know how air marshals are equipped with guns with hollow-point bullets? Why not give those to flight attendants as well? As Montgomery said in the article, misbehavior is reacing intolerable levels.


You have 570 posts in a year... I hope you aren't making those kinds of suggestions in other threads with regularity... No, I don't want my flight attendant armed to the teeth... No more than I want my local police department having military grade armoured vehicles. Arming everyone to the teeth isn't going to reverse any trends....

IADCA wrote:
Yes, let's give numerous weapons to people who don't have training to use them, no area to secure them, and are doing a thousand other things in-flight - as compared to an air marshal, who has one job. No potential for anything to go wrong here, especially when the levels of violence involved are hardly anything that would justify shooting someone, or quite likely shooting and missing in a pressurized tube.


Thank you for that!
 
cynlb
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 6:53 pm

slvrblt wrote:
Revelation wrote:
"Seething at home" IMO comes from the blame culture that most media sources of all political ilks push to gain ratings and thus advertising revenue. The rest IMO largely comes from bad parenting. A person should lose this kind of attitude early in life, never mind still have it on full display at age 28.


Totally agree; even now, I see parents watching passively while one of their brats screams, throws things in public, breaks things, and its, '' oh, they're ok, just a bit upset.'' And the parent gives them whatever it is they want. Riiight. What they need is a good, old fashioned paddling. And now, you see these 28 year old (2 year olds) acting out again. But we've got this thing, oh corporal punishment is awful, you can't do that to a child!!! What nonsense. Yes, you can, and you should. It's part of development, growing up, respecting parental authority. Plus, doing the right things later in life. And the phrase, ''just you wait until your father (or mother) gets home!!'' should again strike concern in little misbehaving hearts.


This made me think of Veruca Salt in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory lol
https://youtu.be/5wAlQf4WdiE
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 8:08 pm

Southwest HAS banned unruly and dangerous passengers before! I remember reading an article about WN in Frequent Flyer magazine back in the Nineties. After a similar incident, Herb Kelleher wrote a personal note to the perpetrator that read, "So sorry we won't be seeing you anymore." I asked my friend Google to find that quote, and the entire article turned up on the website of the Deseret News, among other places. The article takes a long look at Southwest's history, and many of its points are outdated. But, scroll down to the end of the article and you will see this quote.

Here's your link . . . https://www.deseret.com/1996/6/2/192457 ... successful
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9188
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 8:15 pm

I had lunch with an ex-USN friend and the conversation came around to bad behavior. He had an enlisted troop in his squadron on a carrier. Guy was always argumentative and getting in trouble. Finally, sent to a brig staffed by the Marines. Came back about 60 days later, having “fallen” down the stairs a few times, remarkable change in attitude and performance after his brig time. Some people just have never been indoctrinated in good behavior and are hard cases. A few hits and time to think about life as it should be, they become great adults. We let people throw tantrums without painful consequences.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 11:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.


It baffles me how many people don't understand the basic tenets of the Constitution.

You have no constitutional right to fly on an airplane, especially one owned by a private entity such as an airline. They have as much right to trespass someone and ban them from their property as you do with your home. You have no right to due process from a private entity.
 
KCaviator
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 11:38 pm

Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Wed May 26, 2021 11:43 pm

kalvado wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.


You have got to be kidding me. An employee of the airline (a business) was brutally assaulted by a customer. There should be no option for attacker to fly ever again. No different from any other business having a no-trespass against someone. Should get a fine, jail time, and the ban.

There is a difference between a ban as a result of the legal process in a court of law and an at-will ban by the airline people advocate, where a passenger may - or may not - even have a chance to defend themselves.
DHS tried something similar and was heavily criticized. The airline will just be sued out of existence after a few screwups - and rightly so.


Nonsense.

They can ban you because they don't like the color of your eyes or how you walk down the jetway. As long as they're not discriminating against you as a protected class, they can do whatever the hell they want - it's their property. You have no constitutional right to patronize a private business.
 
bpat777
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 1999 8:21 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 12:19 am

KCaviator wrote:
Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.

Care to share why and what difference it would make?
 
KCaviator
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 1:18 am

bpat777 wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.

Care to share why and what difference it would make?


Because statistics are always beneficial for long-term solutions.
 
bpat777
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 1999 8:21 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 1:34 am

KCaviator wrote:
bpat777 wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.

Care to share why and what difference it would make?


Because statistics are always beneficial for long-term solutions.


Agreed, it's good to know the ones that actually need to know are already on it.
 
laser1180
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 3:02 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.


Well many state universities and colleges are funded by govt. money, does that mean anyone who applied needs to be accepted? It's the same logic as airlines should carry anyone who purchase a ticket.

Yea say that to UCLA "I failed in HS and punched my teacher, because you are run in govt. money so you need to accept me".. good luck on that.
 
PMUA787
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 3:15 am

IMHO it’s a big symptom of how much this pandemic has affected people way beyond the physical effects of this ghastly pandemic. I do believe there is something to this “rage virus” mentioned in the first couple of posts. to excuse the actions of these reprehensible people that have caused so much trouble of course.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 6:07 am

it's not just the pandemic. Behavior has been going south in a bad way for the last four years.
 
WNbob
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:36 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 7:18 am

Banning is popular because the rest of us have no use for unruly passenger in a close metal tube. Now can ban be permanent from all carriers? What if this person need to fly to a hospital for surgery, or take care of his sick mother?

Anywhoo, I get the sense that the FAA bestow responsibility and power to the fly crew since there is no higher authority while airborne. Is similar to a cop giving you an order.

Fryers are coming back in droves, can't wait to leave the cells, high lodging$, high car rental$, no thanks, I will stick to my local free parks.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 7:53 am

TWA302 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.


You have got to be kidding me. An employee of the airline (a business) was brutally assaulted by a customer. There should be no option for attacker to fly ever again. No different from any other business having a no-trespass against someone. Should get a fine, jail time, and the ban.

Alternatively fix an electric chair in each plane where customers with a history of misbehaviour are fixated. Of course there can't be extrajudicial killings. Just low voltage reminders when such people raise their voice. That should also motivate others to behave themselves.
 
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stl07
Posts: 3119
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 8:32 am

bigb wrote:
You have a lot of folks flying who have never fly flying today....

I'm pretty sure all of us had a first flight when they could finally afford to fly. I don't think any of us assaulted the FA
 
mileduets
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 2:26 pm

I'm not sure it has gotten worse. It could also be that more cases get documented (mobile phone cameras) and reported.
In 2004 I witnessed an old guy pawing the behind of a FA (notably with his wife sitting next to him). All consequences he had to endure was the co-pilot giving him a lecture on good behaviour and his wife being more embarassed than himself. He walked off the plane without getting arrested.
 
planecane
Posts: 1871
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 3:59 pm

av8tiongeek wrote:
BAINY3 wrote:
Maybe this is a dumb question, but how does it work on an airline with open seating to identify an unruly passenger? How would Southwest know which name on the manifest is causing issues? Would they have to basically involve airport police upon arrival? I imagine this is an easier task on airlines with seat assignments.


A question that should have been resolved post 9/11. Technology is most likely the reason they haven't assigned seats. Let's hope that changes soon.


While I personally wish WN had assigned seating there is no question that boarding is faster with their open seating. I tend to fly a mix of AA and WN and it is very noticeable.
 
planecane
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 4:00 pm

stl07 wrote:
bigb wrote:
You have a lot of folks flying who have never fly flying today....

I'm pretty sure all of us had a first flight when they could finally afford to fly. I don't think any of us assaulted the FA

All these years I thought I missed out on the rite of passage of assaulting an FA on my first flight!
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 4:21 pm

I really hope that flight attendant files a civil suit and takes Quinonez to the cleaners.
 
travaz
Posts: 1237
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 4:32 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
In the meantime in Europe I can't even fly 100 miles without the obligation of a negative covid test plus many days in quarantine. Why would you physically attack a crew member? Why don't you appreciate the fact that you can still travel through the air?


So she could get free quarantine?
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 7:18 pm

Sokes wrote:
Alternatively fix an electric chair in each plane where customers with a history of misbehaviour are fixated. Of course there can't be extrajudicial killings. Just low voltage reminders when such people raise their voice. That should also motivate others to behave themselves.


i guess you think you're clever? so burden airlines with vetting every passenger on the manifest... and then empower them to administer punishment.....

everyone thinks stuff like this is a cute joke, until someone thinks its a good idea.

when I was young...in the 70s... we had Ollie Hoots (a cartoon owl) telling us in large cities throughout the US to give a hoot and don't pollute... it stuck... it was a concerted effort to try to encourage us to behave better.... i think our generation (GenXers) is sensitive about littering....

i see no national focus of trying curb bad behavior... or to encourage good behavior... we glorifiy it through television shows... we make excuses for it (oh it's isolation from the pandemic)... we insist on abdicating parental authority/responsibility to teachers...

Image

I get that young people are angry.... but this has to be curtailed... this kind of behavior is embarrising and shaming entire communities.... Harsh Rules Yes.... But if we can start to think in terms of prevention instead of punishment.... perhaps I'm just to nieve and hopeful.

this stuff is just heartbreaking.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 7:51 pm

KCaviator wrote:
Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.


Such a breakdown would include no surprises. None at all.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 9:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.

Remember that Southwest is a private company, so the assault happened on private ground: any private company can (and should) refuse entry to an individual that committed a crime on their property.
If the company does not do that, the assaulted employee can claim the company is not doing what it needs to do to protect said employee physical integrity and could be held liable if the assailant commits a crime again.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 9:09 pm

kalvado wrote:
Polot wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Bans imposed after a passenger was convicted in common court may be defensible. Without that... good luck.
It will boil down to "common carrier" status, "reasonable" ban - and by the time ACLU brings the case to SCOTUS airline would have enough negative publicity to just collapse under its own weight.

As stated, as long as it’s not for legally discriminatory reasons (eg against a protected class) it’s allowed.

The ACLU wouldn’t take up the case, and I’m not sure why you think the court of public opinion would take the side of someone accused (and probably convicted by time of trial) of punching a FA on board an aircraft. If it was a grandma banned because they were calling the airline with questions too much and the airline got annoyed maybe. But nobody cares if someone who assaulted someone else on board a plane is banned.

I am specifically saying that court conviction is changing things big time. Accused and not prosecuted is a way weaker position. Cleared in court is even weaker.
In this particular case, we're talking about felony charges already filed.

Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 9:12 pm

KCaviator wrote:
bpat777 wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Would love a demographic break down of these incidents.

Care to share why and what difference it would make?


Because statistics are always beneficial for long-term solutions.

No, that's because you have a (most likely racial) bias and you want to prove a point; just express that point loudly, be proud of your convictions.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 9:47 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Polot wrote:
As stated, as long as it’s not for legally discriminatory reasons (eg against a protected class) it’s allowed.

The ACLU wouldn’t take up the case, and I’m not sure why you think the court of public opinion would take the side of someone accused (and probably convicted by time of trial) of punching a FA on board an aircraft. If it was a grandma banned because they were calling the airline with questions too much and the airline got annoyed maybe. But nobody cares if someone who assaulted someone else on board a plane is banned.

I am specifically saying that court conviction is changing things big time. Accused and not prosecuted is a way weaker position. Cleared in court is even weaker.
In this particular case, we're talking about felony charges already filed.

Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?

Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 10:01 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I am specifically saying that court conviction is changing things big time. Accused and not prosecuted is a way weaker position. Cleared in court is even weaker.
In this particular case, we're talking about felony charges already filed.

Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?

Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.


Certainly there have been other passengers banned from flying by airlines for this sort of behavior, no? I don't recall hearing about any court cases challenging the airlines right to ban. Does anyone have any information?
 
kiowa
Posts: 943
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 10:02 pm

mileduets wrote:
I'm not sure it has gotten worse. It could also be that more cases get documented (mobile phone cameras) and reported.
In 2004 I witnessed an old guy pawing the behind of a FA (notably with his wife sitting next to him). All consequences he had to endure was the co-pilot giving him a lecture on good behaviour and his wife being more embarassed than himself. He walked off the plane without getting arrested.



It is interesting that I have not seen any video of this. Half of the airplane passengers probably had their phones out.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Thu May 27, 2021 11:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I am specifically saying that court conviction is changing things big time. Accused and not prosecuted is a way weaker position. Cleared in court is even weaker.
In this particular case, we're talking about felony charges already filed.

Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?

Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 12:39 am

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?

Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 12:43 am

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


I don't think Southwest, as a private company, has any obligation to see if this person is acquitted or convicted. Their employees busted out teeth and facial laserations, along with many eye witnesses are all they need to make their decision about allowing this person to fly on them or not.
 
davescj
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 1:50 am

The person should be given due process of law. If guilty, then penal sanction. But the lifetime ban should be without question on all airlines. This behavior needs to have consequences.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17870
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 2:26 am

laser1180 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Does SWA have a No Fly list? If yes, how about a lifetime ban? Just inches away from the mouth are your eyes.... thankfully they were damaged


I don't understand the popularity of flight bans in this forum. Airlines aren't law enforcement agencies. Carriers aren't offering due process rights. The industry does receive a lot of financial support from city and federal government, even before covid, and so can reasonably be considered common carriers - they need to carry anyone who buys a ticket.

I'm hoping the perp gets eighteen months for assault, not a flight ban.


Well many state universities and colleges are funded by govt. money, does that mean anyone who applied needs to be accepted? It's the same logic as airlines should carry anyone who purchase a ticket.

Yea say that to UCLA "I failed in HS and punched my teacher, because you are run in govt. money so you need to accept me".. good luck on that.


Nobody with an ounce of reasoning ability would make that argument. Not being able to discriminate is not the same as having to accept all.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17870
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 2:27 am

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


You're conflating two things. There is due process for the law to determine if the incident warrants an assault conviction. As far as Southwest is concerned, they have a passenger conduct policy, and if in their view she violated it, that's it. There is zero connection to the criminal proceeding. Just like I can kick you out of a restaurant if you come without a shirt - provided I have a sign posted that says 'shoes and shirt required for service'.
 
cynlb
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 3:50 am

 
USTraveler
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 4:12 am

I agree, though there's been an enormous spike this year. Thus, I think it's mainly pandemic fatigue, since the majority of the reported incidents thus far this year relate to a refusal to wear masks.[/quote]


Do we have any evidence or proof that there is an increase in law-breaking passengers on airline flights? Or maybe it's just being more widely reported by the main-stream media outlets? I'd like to know. Thanks
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17870
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 4:17 am

USTraveler wrote:
Do we have any evidence or proof that there is an increase in law-breaking passengers on airline flights? Or maybe it's just being more widely reported by the main-stream media outlets? I'd like to know. Thanks


Yes, based on the FAA's tracking, the levels of bad behavior are unprecedented. 1000% increase over a typical year, and then some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_WEKo4uuTU

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fa ... r-n1266156

The Federal Aviation Administration is warning air travelers about what it describes as a dramatic increase in unruly or dangerous behavior aboard passenger airplanes.

In a typical year, the transportation agency sees 100 to 150 formal cases of bad passenger behavior. But since the start of this year, the agency said, the number of reported cases has jumped to 1,300, an even more remarkable number since the number of passengers remains below pre-pandemic levels.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri May 28, 2021 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
kiowa
Posts: 943
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 4:18 am

cynlb wrote:



Interesting video. It takes the discussion in a whole different direction.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4791
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 4:33 am

Absolutely disgusted it escalated to this point. Was recently on a flight where a drugged out idiot got up during the taxi to the runway to use the bathroom. They had to stop the plane until he came back to his seat. The flight attendants warned him several times after we took off about his mask. He was belligerent and gave the finger to the FA. Before landing I went back and talked to them and offered assistance if they needed it. I wanted them to know they weren't in this alone, and that I wouldn't hesitate to get physical if he attempted to assault one of them. They were grateful and asked me to keep an eye on him (I was unfortunately sitting behind him.) Anyways, we land and as we were leaving the runway, this jerk unbuckles, opens the overhead bin, and attempts to grab his bag! I did tell him sternly to sit down and put his seatbelt on, and he complied. When we parked at the gate, he jumped up, grabbed his bag and sprinted to the front of the plane, pushing people to the side so he could be the first off.

Police did meet the plane and he was cuffed. Not sure if they had anything to arrest him for, but I am sure they did search him and hopefully found whatever drug he was on.

I fly alot lately, and it saddens me to see what these flight crews are dealing with. So many disrespectful passengers. It really is a $hit show at 35,000 feet these days. Kudos to the men and women that do that job!
 
USTraveler
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 4:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
USTraveler wrote:
I agree, though there's been an enormous spike this year. Thus, I think it's mainly pandemic fatigue, since the majority of the reported incidents thus far this year relate to a refusal to wear masks.



Do we have any evidence or proof that there is an increase in law-breaking passengers on airline flights? Or maybe it's just being more widely reported by the main-stream media outlets? I'd like to know. Thanks


Yes, based on the FAA's tracking, the levels of bad behavior are unprecedented. 1000% increase over a typical year, and then some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_WEKo4uuTU

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fa ... r-n1266156

The Federal Aviation Administration is warning air travelers about what it describes as a dramatic increase in unruly or dangerous behavior aboard passenger airplanes.

In a typical year, the transportation agency sees 100 to 150 formal cases of bad passenger behavior. But since the start of this year, the agency said, the number of reported cases has jumped to 1,300, an even more remarkable number since the number of passengers remains below pre-pandemic levels.
[/quote]


Thanks for your response; it's amazing that this has become a pandemic in itself in the airline world...
 
mileduets
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 9:21 am

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Can you show us the law that says that a private company has an obligation to provide service to everyone? Remember the signs "we have the right to refuse service", "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and the like?

Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.


At that time, mobile phones were required to be turned off. I don't think that flight modes were built in yet, probably not. Filming on board is quite a recent thing and I'm quite sure this also lead to an increase of such reported incidents.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 2:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


You're conflating two things. There is due process for the law to determine if the incident warrants an assault conviction. As far as Southwest is concerned, they have a passenger conduct policy, and if in their view she violated it, that's it. There is zero connection to the criminal proceeding. Just like I can kick you out of a restaurant if you come without a shirt - provided I have a sign posted that says 'shoes and shirt required for service'.

Well, let's agree to disagree and get some popcorn in case the issue goes all the way to the court. I expect things may become interesting at that point
 
Western727
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 3:21 pm

The new video does bring a new angle to this. Still, I'm reminded of the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right". Punching a FA is obviously an absolute no-no and I'm glad the passenger has been charged with a felony.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2991
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines flight attendant loses two teeth after passenger assault

Fri May 28, 2021 3:27 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Are we talking about "no shirt" or ban by person? Airlines are common carriers, that sets them to a group different from restaurants.
Common carrier has a duty of acceptance - and may refuse service in a few situations, most applicable is the case of danger to crew or vessel. Claiming danger is accusing someone of a crime to be committed in future... Good luck holding to that statement in court.

A common carrier is a private or public entity that transports goods or people for a fee.[...]
A common carrier, unlike a private carrier, must provide its service to anyone willing to pay its fee, unless it has grounds for refusal.

Assaulting an employee would be ground for refusal.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

And if that same passenger assault another FA, then Southwest can be on the hook for not ensuring a safe work place for their employees. So, err on the side of caution and ban the perp until cleared by court of law.

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