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ewt340
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:26 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:

Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004, the first 787 entered service in 2011, however that’s a different class as the 77W replaced a lot of 744 fleets. The 77W is uneconomical at the moment because of COVID, it’s a good Preighter for several airlines however not being used to much for pax as the 787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.


Remember B777 entered service in the early 90s. B777-300ER is just a stretch version of a 90's technology.
B787 and A350 also utilize new generation engines and composite materials. One of the reason why B777-300ER is "reasonably efficient" caused directly by the fact that airlines crammed 10-abreast economy class seat into the cabin. If they actually use the original 9-abreast configuration, B777-300ER would be extremely inefficient.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:35 am

vhtje wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:

Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Quite, but it would still be interesting to understand the economics of the 77W vs 748 vs A380. I'm no Boeing fanboy, but there has to be a reason why LH ditched the A380 but opted to keep the 748, and as it's flagship aircraft, no less. I would really love to see LH's or KE's numbers.


Take these number with a grain of salt. Sources came from Leeham news.

B777-300ER with 344 passengers on 7,200nmi operation = 3.11 L/100 km Per seat
A380 with 525 passengers on 7,200nmi operation = 3.27 L/100 km Per seat
B747-8i with 405 passengers on 7,200nmi operation = 3.35 L/100 km Per seat

These all depends on number of pax and their belonging, weather and revenue cargo as well.
 
GoSharks
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:20 am

ewt340 wrote:
B777-300ER is just a stretch version of a 90's technology.

Then what is the 777-300?
 
TC957
Posts: 4075
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:33 am

jmmadrid wrote:
TC957 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.

When they first got their 4 Airbus 340-600 they used them to fly to London. They were their biggest airplane at the time and they filled them up almost every day. And this was at a time when Qatar didn't have so many slots at Heathrow nor many connecting banks at Doha, so I guess they served their purpose well-ish.

Then for 6 hr hops to LHR ( and CDG I think ) then in my books it was a mistake to order the HGW version of the A346, the regular version would easily have sufficed. But of course AAB blamed the inefficiencies of the over-weight A346 instead of himself for ordering them for a role it wasn't needed for.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7889
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:46 am

ewt340 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004, the first 787 entered service in 2011, however that’s a different class as the 77W replaced a lot of 744 fleets. The 77W is uneconomical at the moment because of COVID, it’s a good Preighter for several airlines however not being used to much for pax as the 787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.


Remember B777 entered service in the early 90s. B777-300ER is just a stretch version of a 90's technology.
B787 and A350 also utilize new generation engines and composite materials. One of the reason why B777-300ER is "reasonably efficient" caused directly by the fact that airlines crammed 10-abreast economy class seat into the cabin. If they actually use the original 9-abreast configuration, B777-300ER would be extremely inefficient.


I’m not really sure what you are trying to say, the current A330 is an updated version of a 1990s aircraft, still considered efficient. 10 abreast is the industry norm for the 777 now with 75% of airlines having that configuration. 777 entered service in 1995, A330 in 1994.
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:11 am

VV wrote:
TC957 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.


I think they are quite happy with the A350-1000, otherwise we would have heard from him. Or is it too early for him to whine on this aircraft?


Well they say that, but then why are they refusing to take delivery of the aircraft? I mean, it's not like Airbus have bills to pay and everyone else is struggling on with deliveries in the current environment...

What makes me laugh in the latest spat, is he is trying to bring IAG and LATAM (as if LATAM is going to provide any weight to leverage against manufacturers atm) into the mix with his shareholding in them. Saying in effect they will all have a problem with Airbus, but btw, he still wants QR to be front of the queue for an A350F :scratchchin: How about he pays for the one's he has already ordered and should be taking delivery of first?

The key to the title in the thread was "OUR". Nobody else apart from AAB purchased the A380, or the A350. What does he expect to achieve by throwing toys out the pram every five minutes? There are plenty of airlines in the world, but only two manufacturers. The leverage lies with A & B. You feel Airbus will have to go down the route of only dealing through leasing companies with QR going forwards with pretty strict terms.
 
Pelly
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:14 am

TC957 wrote:
jmmadrid wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.

When they first got their 4 Airbus 340-600 they used them to fly to London. They were their biggest airplane at the time and they filled them up almost every day. And this was at a time when Qatar didn't have so many slots at Heathrow nor many connecting banks at Doha, so I guess they served their purpose well-ish.

Then for 6 hr hops to LHR ( and CDG I think ) then in my books it was a mistake to order the HGW version of the A346, the regular version would easily have sufficed. But of course AAB blamed the inefficiencies of the over-weight A346 instead of himself for ordering them for a role it wasn't needed for.


They were bought in a competition vs the 77W primarily for US ops where the HGW was needed, originally the order had options to reach 10 A346. When Boeing came back with a deal after the A346 was ordered, along with the performance improvements on the 77W QR went with that. Since 4 A346 were already ordered QR took delivery of them and used them for longer range OPS but once the 77W was delivered the A346 were shifted to shorter range ops where the fuel penalty is less. LHR and CDG needed the premium configuration and cargo capacity of the A346. They served for 12 years.

It’s funny that STC didn’t get the U-Turn title since they did not go ahead with the A350-1000, A346HGW and A330NEO.
 
mutu
Posts: 504
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:05 pm

Well if we want to add to the mix: flying via any of these "middle of nowhere" hubs making 2 flights rather than 1 is surely a major pollution factor. If AAB is so concerned about the environment, he should shrink QR back to O&D traffic.
 
VV
Posts: 2255
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm

Now someone who es about the paint job.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-31/
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:56 pm

VV wrote:
Now someone who es about the paint job.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-31/


Just imagine being that guy's waitor on a day that the kitchen staff is not at their best (it happens, sick, call-ins, etc..).

Qatar has soo many different promotional liveries.. who knows what the painting issue could be??
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4133
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:01 pm

VV wrote:
Now someone who es about the paint job.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-31/

Translation: We can't fill the aircraft we already have in our fleet, we don't need anymore right now so why spend money on excess capacity? We will come up with some lame excuse to refuse acceptance.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:37 pm

ER757 wrote:
VV wrote:
Now someone who es about the paint job.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-31/

Translation: We can't fill the aircraft we already have in our fleet, we don't need anymore right now so why spend money on excess capacity? We will come up with some lame excuse to refuse acceptance.


Spot on :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
travaz
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:52 pm

It also seems that AB is playing hard ball sending out notices of default to Airlines that cannot or wont take delivery.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:19 am

VV wrote:
Now someone who es about the paint job.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-31/

Can customers apply the same standard?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:47 am

Revelation wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
hindsight is 20/20.

The A380 was there to solve a problem they thought was gonna happen and they couldnt see the future to know how more fuel efficient planes would become.

The doomsday scenarios of needing planes that huge because of congestion just never happened. You win some you lose some, when trying to predict so far in the future. For the future im sure they will be alot more conservative on all plane builds. The A380 is a cautionary tale, but they took a big gamble.

Sorry, but it isn't hindsight, there were plenty of analysts and corporations saying A380 was too big back during the day. Airbus let itself get enraptured by having the biggest, and the rest is history.

Its inefficiency comes from not just being too big to start with, but also intentionally taking efficiency hits for future variants too. This meant it wasn't even worth putting new state of the art engines on it when they became available, they could not overcome the core inefficiency of the airframe.


To add to your comments - AAB concedes the "mistake in the design" - in his quote:

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qatar-airways-ceo-the-a380-was-our-biggest-mistake
"It was good when it had launched in 2002. But unfortunately, with the rising fuel price and the mistake in the design, we think it was a big mistake."
Al Baker was not pressed for specifics on that alleged "mistake in design", although he cited the A380's "operating costs" as one problem for airlines, along with his belief that "people who are very conscious about emissions will avoid travelling on an A380."
 
ewt340
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:46 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004, the first 787 entered service in 2011, however that’s a different class as the 77W replaced a lot of 744 fleets. The 77W is uneconomical at the moment because of COVID, it’s a good Preighter for several airlines however not being used to much for pax as the 787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.


Remember B777 entered service in the early 90s. B777-300ER is just a stretch version of a 90's technology.
B787 and A350 also utilize new generation engines and composite materials. One of the reason why B777-300ER is "reasonably efficient" caused directly by the fact that airlines crammed 10-abreast economy class seat into the cabin. If they actually use the original 9-abreast configuration, B777-300ER would be extremely inefficient.


I’m not really sure what you are trying to say, the current A330 is an updated version of a 1990s aircraft, still considered efficient. 10 abreast is the industry norm for the 777 now with 75% of airlines having that configuration. 777 entered service in 1995, A330 in 1994.


Nobody said A330 is as efficient as B787 or A350.

B787 and A350 is a next gen aircraft. Any other widebody aircraft before them are old and inefficient. That include A380, B777-300ER and B747-8i.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7889
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am

ewt340 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Remember B777 entered service in the early 90s. B777-300ER is just a stretch version of a 90's technology.
B787 and A350 also utilize new generation engines and composite materials. One of the reason why B777-300ER is "reasonably efficient" caused directly by the fact that airlines crammed 10-abreast economy class seat into the cabin. If they actually use the original 9-abreast configuration, B777-300ER would be extremely inefficient.


I’m not really sure what you are trying to say, the current A330 is an updated version of a 1990s aircraft, still considered efficient. 10 abreast is the industry norm for the 777 now with 75% of airlines having that configuration. 777 entered service in 1995, A330 in 1994.


Nobody said A330 is as efficient as B787 or A350.

B787 and A350 is a next gen aircraft. Any other widebody aircraft before them are old and inefficient. That include A380, B777-300ER and B747-8i.


No they didn't but the A330 is still considered efficient as is the 77W, of course neither are as efficient as the 787/A350 but just because an aircraft is previous generation it doesn't mean its inefficient just not as efficient as the current generation. My point was that the A330 entered service before the 777 and its still considered efficient, sure its different to the 777 but both still have plenty of life and are still produced.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:24 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say, the current A330 is an updated version of a 1990s aircraft, still considered efficient. 10 abreast is the industry norm for the 777 now with 75% of airlines having that configuration. 777 entered service in 1995, A330 in 1994.


Nobody said A330 is as efficient as B787 or A350.

B787 and A350 is a next gen aircraft. Any other widebody aircraft before them are old and inefficient. That include A380, B777-300ER and B747-8i.


No they didn't but the A330 is still considered efficient as is the 77W, of course neither are as efficient as the 787/A350 but just because an aircraft is previous generation it doesn't mean its inefficient just not as efficient as the current generation. My point was that the A330 entered service before the 777 and its still considered efficient, sure its different to the 777 but both still have plenty of life and are still produced.


Yeah no, A330-900 and B777-9 are considered as efficient as A350 and B787. Not the A330ceo and B777-300ER. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

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