Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
asuflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 2:11 pm

Russia has denied entrance to its airspace for 2 OS and AF flights bound for Moscow after they planned their routes bypassing Belarus, rapidly increasing diplomatic fallout from the Ryanair hijacking. The affected flights are OS601 from VIE to DME and AF1154 from CDG to SVO.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ai ... 021-05-26/
 
Noshow
Posts: 2503
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 2:56 pm

I hope we don't end up in some cold trade war fighting aviation.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 3:00 pm

asuflyer wrote:
Russia has denied entrance to its airspace for 2 OS and AF flights bound for Moscow after they planned their routes bypassing Belarus, rapidly increasing diplomatic fallout from the Ryanair hijacking. The affected flights are OS601 from VIE to DME and AF1154 from CDG to SVO.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ai ... 021-05-26/


Apparently only affecting MOW flights. The new routes via the baltics need new approval. LED flights are hence not affected...
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22205
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 3:08 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
Apparently only affecting MOW flights. The new routes via the baltics need new approval. LED flights are hence not affected...


So this might not actually be diplomatic anything. I have to think that it would effect more flights if this was something coming from the level of the Kremlin. This might just be Russian bureaucracy being Russian bureaucracy.

While it's true that Russian airspace is valuable for Europe-Asia services, Russia would be wise not to overestimate its value. Certainly, in 1990 after the fall of the USSR, the 747-400 was the longest-range airliner and the opening of Russian airspace to these flights was invaluable.

But in 2021, while airlines don't want to have to go the long way around Russia, modern airliners absolutely can take such a route. From LHR to NRT it involves about a 20% longer distance. This would cost time and fuel, but it's not a complete show-stopper. And for routes to more southern Asian locations like SIN, avoiding Russian airspace would only add a trivial extra distance to the flight.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
hoons90
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 3:54 pm

DocLightning wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
Apparently only affecting MOW flights. The new routes via the baltics need new approval. LED flights are hence not affected...


So this might not actually be diplomatic anything. I have to think that it would effect more flights if this was something coming from the level of the Kremlin. This might just be Russian bureaucracy being Russian bureaucracy.

While it's true that Russian airspace is valuable for Europe-Asia services, Russia would be wise not to overestimate its value. Certainly, in 1990 after the fall of the USSR, the 747-400 was the longest-range airliner and the opening of Russian airspace to these flights was invaluable.

But in 2021, while airlines don't want to have to go the long way around Russia, modern airliners absolutely can take such a route. From LHR to NRT it involves about a 20% longer distance. This would cost time and fuel, but it's not a complete show-stopper. And for routes to more southern Asian locations like SIN, avoiding Russian airspace would only add a trivial extra distance to the flight.


Indeed.

I recall KE was avoiding Russian airspace on routes as long as ICN-MAD/BCN in the past, presumably because they ran out of their overflight allotments.

LOT BUD-ICN and v.v. doesn't use Russian airspace either.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 4:02 pm

Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N757ST
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 4:08 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that. What happens if there is weather over that routing? The flight cancels? What if there’s severe turbulence? Cancel? Flight plans are filed a couple hours in advance, not days, weeks, or months.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 4:32 pm

Yes many nations have specific route approval for overflight. Two big ones being Russia and China, but they also exist in parts of Middle East, Africa and Latin America. You need to enter and exit at defined points.
Minor weather deviations are allowed with approval, but you are expected to largely maintain your approved routing for which you applied for in advance.
I fly your boxes
 
holczakker
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 4:40 pm

N757ST wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that. What happens if there is weather over that routing? The flight cancels? What if there’s severe turbulence? Cancel? Flight plans are filed a couple hours in advance, not days, weeks, or months.

With all respect, is wicked inflexibility of Russia a new thing for you? You submit a request with the desired routing, you get permission for that route, you file it and fly it. The same for Ukraine and a quite couple of eastern countries. If you want to change anything you need a lot of time. If you want a change within a day you need someone who speaks russian and has friends at the authorities. If you want a last minute change (or anything out of office hours), forget it, no chance. If you change the routing on your own, you refused to enter their airspace.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5160
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 6:08 pm

N757ST wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that. What happens if there is weather over that routing? The flight cancels? What if there’s severe turbulence? Cancel? Flight plans are filed a couple hours in advance, not days, weeks, or months.


The key word is they "may" not grant you access. If there is a storm or something then they can allow you access etc etc.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22205
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 7:14 pm

N757ST wrote:

Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that.


Have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever dealt with a Russian bureaucrat? (hint, you will meet one at the border). Russian bureaucracy is world-renowned. Russian bureaucrats make the Vogons look like sloppy laggards.

The only country I've ever encountered with a more onerous bureaucracy is India. Although I once almost got detained in Mexico solely because the cruise line lost my exit form. I've never been to China (other than Hong Kong), but I have heard that their bureaucracy is also quite...arduous.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 7:27 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Really ? The reality tells me something complete different. One example of many BA 257 which is currently underway and clearly didn`t fly over Belarus

https://www.flightradar24.com/BAW257/27d91000

If you check the same flight from Saturday 22nd May you can see they flew straight through Belarus ! This is only one example of many airlines doing the same
Given the large number of airlines that currently avoid Belarus and then fly via Russia, this cannot be the truth
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 8:35 pm

DocLightning wrote:
N757ST wrote:

Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that.


Have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever dealt with a Russian bureaucrat? (hint, you will meet one at the border). Russian bureaucracy is world-renowned. Russian bureaucrats make the Vogons look like sloppy laggards.

The only country I've ever encountered with a more onerous bureaucracy is India. Although I once almost got detained in Mexico solely because the cruise line lost my exit form. I've never been to China (other than Hong Kong), but I have heard that their bureaucracy is also quite...arduous.


Yes, I've even been to Russia very often and I think, if you understand the Russian mentality, everything is very easy in this country.
To be fair, I have to say that I can speak Russian and my wife is Russian too. As my father-in-law always says: This is Russia and everything is possible here.
Or: one hand washes the other and then both are dirty if you understand what I mean !?
I can't say anything about the bureaucratic hurdles that airlines have to overcome with Russia.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2293
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 9:01 pm

oldJoe wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Really ? The reality tells me something complete different. One example of many BA 257 which is currently underway and clearly didn`t fly over Belarus

https://www.flightradar24.com/BAW257/27d91000

If you check the same flight from Saturday 22nd May you can see they flew straight through Belarus ! This is only one example of many airlines doing the same
Given the large number of airlines that currently avoid Belarus and then fly via Russia, this cannot be the truth

That's the official reason that was given: flight plans needed to be modified to avoid Belarus airspace, changing the point of entry into Russian airspace. Russia had not given clearance on the new flight plans by the time the flights were about to take off and the flights were cancelled.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 9:14 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.


Really ? The reality tells me something complete different. One example of many BA 257 which is currently underway and clearly didn`t fly over Belarus

https://www.flightradar24.com/BAW257/27d91000

If you check the same flight from Saturday 22nd May you can see they flew straight through Belarus ! This is only one example of many airlines doing the same
Given the large number of airlines that currently avoid Belarus and then fly via Russia, this cannot be the truth

That's the official reason that was given: flight plans needed to be modified to avoid Belarus airspace, changing the point of entry into Russian airspace. Russia had not given clearance on the new flight plans by the time the flights were about to take off and the flights were cancelled.


And how do you explain how so many other airlines can sort it out in a very short time
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2293
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 9:17 pm

oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

Really ? The reality tells me something complete different. One example of many BA 257 which is currently underway and clearly didn`t fly over Belarus

https://www.flightradar24.com/BAW257/27d91000

If you check the same flight from Saturday 22nd May you can see they flew straight through Belarus ! This is only one example of many airlines doing the same
Given the large number of airlines that currently avoid Belarus and then fly via Russia, this cannot be the truth

That's the official reason that was given: flight plans needed to be modified to avoid Belarus airspace, changing the point of entry into Russian airspace. Russia had not given clearance on the new flight plans by the time the flights were about to take off and the flights were cancelled.


And how do you explain how so many other airlines can sort it out in a very short time

Russia supports Belarus, France prevented yesterday an aircraft from Belarus to enter French airspace: you cannot see the retaliation?
Russian authorities decided to drag their feet on AF application, as retaliation, but to expedite others; how's that the airline's fault?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 9:28 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That's the official reason that was given: flight plans needed to be modified to avoid Belarus airspace, changing the point of entry into Russian airspace. Russia had not given clearance on the new flight plans by the time the flights were about to take off and the flights were cancelled.


And how do you explain how so many other airlines can sort it out in a very short time

Russia supports Belarus, France prevented yesterday an aircraft from Belarus to enter French airspace: you cannot see the retaliation?
Russian authorities decided to drag their feet on AF application, as retaliation, but to expedite others; how's that the airline's fault?


How you explain OS601 ? Retaliation for what ?
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 5189
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 9:32 pm

Depending on the nations involved, overflight permits are often something airlines apply for months in advance and are not something that can be changed on a whim.

A single desired routing change may impact planned airspace transit in several nations, so all must be coordinated and updated which may take days to accomplish.
mercure f-wtcc
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 10:41 pm

For some reason I am seeing John Malkovich and Matt Damon sitting across from each other at a poker table.....
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 10:53 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Depending on the nations involved, overflight permits are often something airlines apply for months in advance and are not something that can be changed on a whim.

A single desired routing change may impact planned airspace transit in several nations, so all must be coordinated and updated which may take days to accomplish.


Yet in other parts of the world, airspace can be closed due to heightened political tensions, as happened when Iran and the U.S. had their last tiff and the airlines managed to get rerouted around the troubled areas with no obvious problems.

This is purely tit for tat.
 
tu204
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 11:27 pm

As many have stated here, there is nothing but a formality.

You apply for overflight/entrance/exit to the Russian Federation 72hours (preferred, but 24hours minimum) before you plan to enter. You file this to the Ministry of Transport (Rosaviatsiya), this request for and then the permission includes some flight information including the intersection (point) where you enter. Then within whatever time your local authority requires (several hours or whatever) you file a flight plan. If your flight plan's entry point is different from what you applied for (and were approved) in your permission that you originally asked for, well your flight plan gets denied as soon as the Russian side receives it (hopefully before you take off btw).
Annoying, but makes perfect sense.

A flight plan is not a permission of entry into the Russian Federation. You file for permission, then based on that you file a flight plan. Maybe OS and AF filed for blanket permissions for a month worth of flights back in April for all of May and forgot to modify them once the ban was put in place.

Plainly their fault or whomever they use for handling. Others didn't have this problem and they had several days to notify of change of entry point before they filed their flightplans.
Last edited by tu204 on Thu May 27, 2021 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2293
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 11:27 pm

oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

And how do you explain how so many other airlines can sort it out in a very short time

Russia supports Belarus, France prevented yesterday an aircraft from Belarus to enter French airspace: you cannot see the retaliation?
Russian authorities decided to drag their feet on AF application, as retaliation, but to expedite others; how's that the airline's fault?


How you explain OS601 ? Retaliation for what ?

Ask Vlad', I don't know.

Do you really believe one of the (if not THE) closest ally to Belarus would not retaliate against an entity (Europe) that's considering banning Belarus within its airspace?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2293
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 11:30 pm

tu204 wrote:
As many have stated here, there is nothing but a formality.

You apply for overflight/entrance/exit to the Russian Federation 72hours before you plan to enter. You file this to the Ministry of Transport (Rosaviatsiya), this request for and then the permission includes some flight information including the intersection (point) where you enter. Then within whatever time your local authority requires (several hours or whatever) you file a flight plan. If your flight plan's entry point is different from what you applied for (and were approved) in your permission that you originally asked for, well your flight plan gets denied as soon as the Russian side receives it (hopefully before you take off btw).
Annoying, but makes perfect sense.

A flight plan is not a permission of entry into the Russian Federation. You file for permission, then based on that you file a flight plan. Maybe OS and AF file blanked permissions for a month worth of flights back in April for all of May and forgot to modify them once the ban was put in place.

Plainly their fault or whomever they use for handling. Others didn't have this problem and they had several days to notify of change of entry point before they filed their flightplans.

So, you're saying that, in the event of bad weather around Russia's borders, an airline has the choice between flying through that bad weather or scrapping the flight altogether?
 
tu204
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 11:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
tu204 wrote:
As many have stated here, there is nothing but a formality.

You apply for overflight/entrance/exit to the Russian Federation 72hours before you plan to enter. You file this to the Ministry of Transport (Rosaviatsiya), this request for and then the permission includes some flight information including the intersection (point) where you enter. Then within whatever time your local authority requires (several hours or whatever) you file a flight plan. If your flight plan's entry point is different from what you applied for (and were approved) in your permission that you originally asked for, well your flight plan gets denied as soon as the Russian side receives it (hopefully before you take off btw).
Annoying, but makes perfect sense.

A flight plan is not a permission of entry into the Russian Federation. You file for permission, then based on that you file a flight plan. Maybe OS and AF file blanked permissions for a month worth of flights back in April for all of May and forgot to modify them once the ban was put in place.

Plainly their fault or whomever they use for handling. Others didn't have this problem and they had several days to notify of change of entry point before they filed their flightplans.

So, you're saying that, in the event of bad weather around Russia's borders, an airline has the choice between flying through that bad weather or scrapping the flight altogether?



Nope. Because you file the flight plan as your original route, then enroute you start diverting due to weather, once tou are already enroute and talking to ATC.
Lets say you are flying from Turkey into Russia. Entry point is "TUDEK" (south of Sochi). You file the flight plan as per permission from Turkey, and while speaking to Ankara Control, you see some shit and wanna go 50nm West. You tell this to Ankara, who are talking to Rostov Control and they notify/request, Rostov grants it, Ankara grants you and hands you off to Rostov when you hit the FIR boundary.

What's important here is that the flight plan you FILED corresponds to your permission. In this case "TUDEK" as the entry point. Enroute you can change. But let's say if you file a flight plan with entry through "BALUM" (next entry point over to the West from TUDEK), well, don't be surprised if your flight plan doesn't go through. Change in the air, sure, but file as permitted.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2293
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Thu May 27, 2021 11:48 pm

tu204 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
tu204 wrote:
As many have stated here, there is nothing but a formality.

You apply for overflight/entrance/exit to the Russian Federation 72hours before you plan to enter. You file this to the Ministry of Transport (Rosaviatsiya), this request for and then the permission includes some flight information including the intersection (point) where you enter. Then within whatever time your local authority requires (several hours or whatever) you file a flight plan. If your flight plan's entry point is different from what you applied for (and were approved) in your permission that you originally asked for, well your flight plan gets denied as soon as the Russian side receives it (hopefully before you take off btw).
Annoying, but makes perfect sense.

A flight plan is not a permission of entry into the Russian Federation. You file for permission, then based on that you file a flight plan. Maybe OS and AF file blanked permissions for a month worth of flights back in April for all of May and forgot to modify them once the ban was put in place.

Plainly their fault or whomever they use for handling. Others didn't have this problem and they had several days to notify of change of entry point before they filed their flightplans.

So, you're saying that, in the event of bad weather around Russia's borders, an airline has the choice between flying through that bad weather or scrapping the flight altogether?



Nope. Because you file the flight plan as your original route, then enroute you start diverting due to weather, once tou are already enroute and talking to ATC.
Lets say you are flying from Turkey into Russia. Entry point is "TUDEK" (south of Sochi). You file the flight plan as per permission from Turkey, and while speaking to Ankara Control, you see some shit and wanna go 50nm West. You tell this to Ankara, who are talking to Rostov Control and they notify/request, Rostov grants it, Ankara grants you and hands you off to Rostov when you hit the FIR boundary.

What's important here is that the flight plan you FILED corresponds to your permission. In this case "TUDEK" as the entry point. Enroute you can change. But let's say if you file a flight plan with entry through "BALUM" (next entry point over to the West from TUDEK), well, don't be surprised if your flight plan doesn't go through. Change in the air, sure, but file as permitted.

So, you file your scheduled route, knowing you cannot fly it because of the weather, and divert in-route? Sounds like classic bureaucracy shenanigans
 
tu204
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 12:02 am

WayexTDI wrote:
tu204 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
So, you're saying that, in the event of bad weather around Russia's borders, an airline has the choice between flying through that bad weather or scrapping the flight altogether?



Nope. Because you file the flight plan as your original route, then enroute you start diverting due to weather, once tou are already enroute and talking to ATC.
Lets say you are flying from Turkey into Russia. Entry point is "TUDEK" (south of Sochi). You file the flight plan as per permission from Turkey, and while speaking to Ankara Control, you see some shit and wanna go 50nm West. You tell this to Ankara, who are talking to Rostov Control and they notify/request, Rostov grants it, Ankara grants you and hands you off to Rostov when you hit the FIR boundary.

What's important here is that the flight plan you FILED corresponds to your permission. In this case "TUDEK" as the entry point. Enroute you can change. But let's say if you file a flight plan with entry through "BALUM" (next entry point over to the West from TUDEK), well, don't be surprised if your flight plan doesn't go through. Change in the air, sure, but file as permitted.

So, you file your scheduled route, knowing you cannot fly it because of the weather, and divert in-route? Sounds like classic bureaucracy shenanigans



Yup. Pretty much. Realistically through you are not gonna divert 100nm+ on a regular basis unless you have some tropical storm in the way (it's not like entry points are every 20nm), so it's a non issue.

Plus I don't know how the Russian ATC system handles foreign flight plans when they are filed (when I fly abroad company handles that), but for internal Russian IFR plans you file through their website (at least 30 minutes in advance) first it goes through a computer, which can automatically reject it before a person even sees it. When I fly private I file my own plans.
Heck just yesterday I was flying with a buddy on his piston twin from UWKD to a private strip near UWGG and I got 2 rejects due to a conflict in the plan (in the decent, through restricted airspace which I knew and confirmed wouldn't be active at the time of arrival).
Call Moscow center, ask why I got a reject, flight planning specialists is pissed, he understands but he never even for the plan, computer rejected something like 8 seconds after I filed. Took us 5-10 minutes on the phone for me to re-file and him to block computer from rejecting it immediately.

Could be same here. But more inclined to believe that since it was only two flights that someone in dispatch "did everything as they usually do" without realising that they had to do some double checking and making sure. Nothing political.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 12:45 am

I was once on a flight from Hong Kong to London that was denied permission to fly over Russia. We waited 4 hours at the gate, then they had to take everyone off the plane and put them in a hotel for the night. What made it worse was that this was the first flight ever for a brand new airline. Even the CEO was on board. The next day we flew the route avoiding Russian airspace and it took 13 hours.

I don´t know if that was bureaucracy or politics but the pilot explained to me that it was only when they tried to get clearance that they found out there was a problem, as each ATC authority contacts the next one to check that they can pass the flight on. So maybe something similar is happening here.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 1:00 am

Wonder if this is having much of an impact on Finnair which has a lot of flights over Russia. Or maybe many of those flights aren't operating right now? Either way, it's a big revenue source for Russia.
 
schernov
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:41 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 2:45 am

The interesting bit is that after that AF flight was cancelled, AF arranged for SU to send a 777 to CDG and fly all of the passengers to SVO.
Although AF and SU are both skyteam, it was not a regularly scheduled SU flight.

https://m.gazeta.ru/politics/2021/05/27 ... 0348.shtml
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 3:17 am

DocLightning wrote:
N757ST wrote:

Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that.


Have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever dealt with a Russian bureaucrat? (hint, you will meet one at the border). Russian bureaucracy is world-renowned. Russian bureaucrats make the Vogons look like sloppy laggards.

The only country I've ever encountered with a more onerous bureaucracy is India. Although I once almost got detained in Mexico solely because the cruise line lost my exit form. I've never been to China (other than Hong Kong), but I have heard that their bureaucracy is also quite...arduous.


As a Russian, the one key component you’re leaving out is greasing officials palms. While it’s not as common as in the past, it’s absolutely possible to get expedited if you’re giving a “convenience fee” to the right people. Have experience with that personally with consulate staff back when Russia had a consulate in Houston and needed to get my passport renewed.

While I’m not saying the airlines need to bribe Russian officials. I’m sure if this turns into needing more paperwork, I’m sure there’s an official somewhere in Russia who would grant more leniency to an airline if their family were more likely to receive an upgrade the next few times their families decide to travel to France or Spain once Europe opens up to Russians.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 3:21 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
I was once on a flight from Hong Kong to London that was denied permission to fly over Russia. We waited 4 hours at the gate, then they had to take everyone off the plane and put them in a hotel for the night. What made it worse was that this was the first flight ever for a brand new airline. Even the CEO was on board. The next day we flew the route avoiding Russian airspace and it took 13 hours.

I don´t know if that was bureaucracy or politics but the pilot explained to me that it was only when they tried to get clearance that they found out there was a problem, as each ATC authority contacts the next one to check that they can pass the flight on. So maybe something similar is happening here.

Sounds like Oasis Hong Kong Airlines (RIP).
 
Max Q
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 3:40 am

Anyone see a cheesy movie ‘white knights’ ?

The opening scene involves a 747 having to divert and make an unplanned emergency landing at a Russian airport


Unfortunately for him a Russian defector is on board and spends the last few minutes of the flight trying to remove all his identifying information including flushing his US passport down the toilet after tearing it into pieces


Didnt work though, they knew who he was


This whole episode reminds me of that movie
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
hoons90
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 3:53 am

cschleic wrote:
Wonder if this is having much of an impact on Finnair which has a lot of flights over Russia. Or maybe many of those flights aren't operating right now? Either way, it's a big revenue source for Russia.


While not ideal from an economic standpoint, Finnair can operate Helsinki-East Asia flights non-stop, at least with A350s. In fact, Finnair has operated Helsinki-Tokyo nonstop for several years while avoiding Soviet airspace, with DC-10-30ERs.

Such a detour could make some routes to lower margin secondary cities unprofitable, though.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
hooverman
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 5:04 am

Let’s see what happens coming days but my gut feeling says this is retaliation.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 711
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 5:39 am

hoons90 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
Apparently only affecting MOW flights. The new routes via the baltics need new approval. LED flights are hence not affected...


So this might not actually be diplomatic anything. I have to think that it would effect more flights if this was something coming from the level of the Kremlin. This might just be Russian bureaucracy being Russian bureaucracy.

While it's true that Russian airspace is valuable for Europe-Asia services, Russia would be wise not to overestimate its value. Certainly, in 1990 after the fall of the USSR, the 747-400 was the longest-range airliner and the opening of Russian airspace to these flights was invaluable.

But in 2021, while airlines don't want to have to go the long way around Russia, modern airliners absolutely can take such a route. From LHR to NRT it involves about a 20% longer distance. This would cost time and fuel, but it's not a complete show-stopper. And for routes to more southern Asian locations like SIN, avoiding Russian airspace would only add a trivial extra distance to the flight.


Indeed.

I recall KE was avoiding Russian airspace on routes as long as ICN-MAD/BCN in the past, presumably because they ran out of their overflight allotments.

LOT BUD-ICN and v.v. doesn't use Russian airspace either.

Sure but if they close their airspace to someone and not to others 20% will make the difference and the competition would end on those routes with ticket prices and freight prices increase. I would expect then some reply from EU.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 6:01 am

WayexTDI wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Russia supports Belarus, France prevented yesterday an aircraft from Belarus to enter French airspace: you cannot see the retaliation?
Russian authorities decided to drag their feet on AF application, as retaliation, but to expedite others; how's that the airline's fault?


How you explain OS601 ? Retaliation for what ?

Ask Vlad', I don't know.

Do you really believe one of the (if not THE) closest ally to Belarus would not retaliate against an entity (Europe) that's considering banning Belarus within its airspace?


I can definitely believe the apparatchik explanation. I've had the misfortune of dealing with the types before, they are the types who will tell an ATR to climb to FL400, and insist it is your problem that the aircraft can't do it.

KLM managed to fly to Moscow tonight and back in the morning, touring north of Belarus, so they definitely aren't forcing European airlines to do it. It probably just means KLM has more experienced people on the ground in Russia to push the papers and grease the right hands.


schernov wrote:
The interesting bit is that after that AF flight was cancelled, AF arranged for SU to send a 777 to CDG and fly all of the passengers to SVO.
Although AF and SU are both skyteam, it was not a regularly scheduled SU flight.

https://m.gazeta.ru/politics/2021/05/27 ... 0348.shtml


Aeroflot has been operating non-scheduled 777 and A330 flights to Europe throughout the Covid-19 outbreak.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2839
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 6:40 am

DocLightning wrote:
N757ST wrote:

Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that.


Have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever dealt with a Russian bureaucrat? (hint, you will meet one at the border). Russian bureaucracy is world-renowned. Russian bureaucrats make the Vogons look like sloppy laggards.

The only country I've ever encountered with a more onerous bureaucracy is India. Although I once almost got detained in Mexico solely because the cruise line lost my exit form. I've never been to China (other than Hong Kong), but I have heard that their bureaucracy is also quite...arduous.

THAT explains it! When I landed in Goa, all the American/British tourists coming for the music festivals and beach resorts seemed extremely frustrated at Indian customs but the Russians seems completely unfazed by it
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
EFHK
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 8:01 am

hoons90 wrote:
cschleic wrote:
Wonder if this is having much of an impact on Finnair which has a lot of flights over Russia. Or maybe many of those flights aren't operating right now? Either way, it's a big revenue source for Russia.


While not ideal from an economic standpoint, Finnair can operate Helsinki-East Asia flights non-stop, at least with A350s. In fact, Finnair has operated Helsinki-Tokyo nonstop for several years while avoiding Soviet airspace, with DC-10-30ERs.

Such a detour could make some routes to lower margin secondary cities unprofitable, though.


So far this issue has concerned two single flights from two different airlines that normally operate over Belarus, so let's not get ahead of ourselves here. 99% of flights to/from/over Russia are operating perfectly normally at the moment. Also, AY has practically no flights that would fly over both Belarus & Russia under normal circumstances.

It's interesting info that has been presented in this thread that the overfly permits would specify a certain point of entry. I assume that this can differ per permit, or then long-haul flights may have e.g. two separate entry points, since at least AY flights (e.g. to HKG) regularly enter/leave Russian airspace through two different waypoints - one around LED and one in Karelia.

Now, if the situation would escalate much further and Russia would start revoking overflight permits for example from all EU airlines, it would be interesting to see whether we'd see AY taking up the polar route again to Japan. It could be feasible, but also the airlines having still the overflight permits granted and e.g. the ME3 could probably rather easily snatch up most of the traffic rather cost-efficiently. Essentially, if one doesn't play by Russia's rules, it'll be a lose-lose situation.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2503
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 8:10 am

It's a two way street and Russia wants traffic and income too and has to play by the rules itself.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 9:06 am

Finnair AY715 has landed in Moscow without issues.
LOT 675, Swiss 1326, Austrian 601 and Lufthansa 1444 are all underway to Moscow right now, all circumventing Belarus, with LOT about to land right now.

Looks like a storm in a teacup by the hawks IMHO.

Edit: Now the Lufthansa plane is also in Russian airspace.
 
TRC
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 28, 2021 8:59 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 9:14 am

In the case of AF it is clearly an indirect political retaliation after Belavia flight from MSQ to BCN was denied entering French airspace.

The 2 AF flights to Mosciw SVO, past Wednesday and yesterday (operated in Boeing 787-9) were cancelled and today (Airbus A319) as well. AF requests to change flight plans were perfectly sent ontime to the Russian authorities but so far until now... still no reply from their side since....Tuesday! Purely political black mailing ignoring AF demand.

Yes AF and SU found a common arrangement by sending yesterday to CDG an SU 77W and today an SU A333 (instead of the usual SU A320/A321 5-6 times per week).

AF flights to LED (twice per week A319) seem not be affected for the moment: AF aircraft flew to LED on Wednesaday and next flight is still planned for tomorrow.

Las but not least AF is supposed to start flying next week to SVO with A350 if situation allows it.
 
hooverman
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 9:45 am

I guess I have to eat my words by saying it could be retaliation. :white:
 
EFHK
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 10:22 am

Noshow wrote:
It's a two way street and Russia wants traffic and income too and has to play by the rules itself.


Yes, hence lose-lose-situation. I still don't believe that Russia wouldn't be ready to put themselves in such situation under certain circumstances though.

hooverman wrote:
I guess I have to eat my words by saying it could be retaliation. :white:


I don't think you have to, it most certainly is retaliation! But not full on - just enough that they got to make a point and push it through in the Western media, without really causing any big problems (yet).
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 11:14 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I was once on a flight from Hong Kong to London that was denied permission to fly over Russia. We waited 4 hours at the gate, then they had to take everyone off the plane and put them in a hotel for the night. What made it worse was that this was the first flight ever for a brand new airline. Even the CEO was on board. The next day we flew the route avoiding Russian airspace and it took 13 hours.

I don´t know if that was bureaucracy or politics but the pilot explained to me that it was only when they tried to get clearance that they found out there was a problem, as each ATC authority contacts the next one to check that they can pass the flight on. So maybe something similar is happening here.

Sounds like Oasis Hong Kong Airlines (RIP).


Yes, it was. That was a great airline, actually, and they gave everyone on that flight a free return so I was able to go back again to Hong Kong the next year.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 5:25 pm

TRC wrote:
In the case of AF it is clearly an indirect political retaliation after Belavia flight from MSQ to BCN was denied entering French airspace.

The 2 AF flights to Mosciw SVO, past Wednesday and yesterday (operated in Boeing 787-9) were cancelled and today (Airbus A319) as well. AF requests to change flight plans were perfectly sent ontime to the Russian authorities but so far until now... still no reply from their side since....Tuesday! Purely political black mailing ignoring AF demand.

Yes AF and SU found a common arrangement by sending yesterday to CDG an SU 77W and today an SU A333 (instead of the usual SU A320/A321 5-6 times per week).

AF flights to LED (twice per week A319) seem not be affected for the moment: AF aircraft flew to LED on Wednesaday and next flight is still planned for tomorrow.

Las but not least AF is supposed to start flying next week to SVO with A350 if situation allows it.


The Belavia flight was denied by Poland, not France. It didn't even leave Belarusian airspace. KLM is the same company and is still allowed to fly. As you yourself wrote, it is clear that only flights that were previously filed through Belarus are affected, since St. Petersburg doesn't go via Belarus. But nice try.
 
TRC
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 28, 2021 8:59 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 6:04 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TRC wrote:
In the case of AF it is clearly an indirect political retaliation after Belavia flight from MSQ to BCN was denied entering French airspace.

The 2 AF flights to Mosciw SVO, past Wednesday and yesterday (operated in Boeing 787-9) were cancelled and today (Airbus A319) as well. AF requests to change flight plans were perfectly sent ontime to the Russian authorities but so far until now... still no reply from their side since....Tuesday! Purely political black mailing ignoring AF demand.

Yes AF and SU found a common arrangement by sending yesterday to CDG an SU 77W and today an SU A333 (instead of the usual SU A320/A321 5-6 times per week).

AF flights to LED (twice per week A319) seem not be affected for the moment: AF aircraft flew to LED on Wednesaday and next flight is still planned for tomorrow.

Las but not least AF is supposed to start flying next week to SVO with A350 if situation allows it.


The Belavia flight was denied by Poland, not France. It didn't even leave Belarusian airspace. KLM is the same company and is still allowed to fly. As you yourself wrote, it is clear that only flights that were previously filed through Belarus are affected, since St. Petersburg doesn't go via Belarus. But nice try.


Not at all, today Belarussian Prime Minister Roman Golovchenko met in Minsk Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin.

Golovchenko declared "An outrageous incident took place on a Minsk-Barcelona flight yesterday. As our airplane was gaining altitude, we received information on the closing of the airspace over France in violation of all aviation regulations and rules. As a result, our plane had to return to Minsk."

So the reason why the flight to BCN did not go out of Belarus airspace is because France closed its airspace to Belavia.

Pure Russian political decisions against AF and OS!

Full declaration is here: http://government.ru/en/news/42330/
 
artflyer
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:08 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 9:47 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TRC wrote:
In the case of AF it is clearly an indirect political retaliation after Belavia flight from MSQ to BCN was denied entering French airspace.

The 2 AF flights to Mosciw SVO, past Wednesday and yesterday (operated in Boeing 787-9) were cancelled and today (Airbus A319) as well. AF requests to change flight plans were perfectly sent ontime to the Russian authorities but so far until now... still no reply from their side since....Tuesday! Purely political black mailing ignoring AF demand.

Yes AF and SU found a common arrangement by sending yesterday to CDG an SU 77W and today an SU A333 (instead of the usual SU A320/A321 5-6 times per week).

AF flights to LED (twice per week A319) seem not be affected for the moment: AF aircraft flew to LED on Wednesaday and next flight is still planned for tomorrow.

Las but not least AF is supposed to start flying next week to SVO with A350 if situation allows it.


The Belavia flight was denied by Poland, not France. It didn't even leave Belarusian airspace. KLM is the same company and is still allowed to fly. As you yourself wrote, it is clear that only flights that were previously filed through Belarus are affected, since St. Petersburg doesn't go via Belarus. But nice try.


Nope. That particular Belavia flight was not denied by Poland. At that time there was no notam prohibiting Belavia access to Polish airspace as evidenced by the fact that on that very day other Belavia flights still used Polish airspace, and Belavia even made the flight to WAW on that date (the EU council agreed that the sanctions on Belavia will enter into force only from the next day onwards).

So why that plane did not enter Polish airspace? I guess they did not want to pay for overflight to Poland after they realised they may have difficulty to reach the final destination and decided to stay circiling in the Belarussian airspace until finally confirmed that they should head back to MSQ.
 
tu204
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Fri May 28, 2021 11:33 pm

TRC wrote:

Pure Russian political decisions against AF and OS!

Full declaration is here: http://government.ru/en/news/42330/


Making absolutely no sense here...read this thread more thoroughly.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5509
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Sat May 29, 2021 12:59 am

LAXintl wrote:
Russia overflights are routing-specific and have entry and exit points and generally applied for months in advance.
If you show up at a different location than intended in approval, then the respective ATC unit will rightfully deny entry.

It’s 2021 wtf are they doing with their airspace. We let Antoine cross the US in a direction they want.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16100
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Russia denies entry to AF and OS flights to SVO and DME

Sat May 29, 2021 2:21 am

N757ST wrote:

Is this true? That’s some wicked inflexibility and it’s the only country then that I’ve heard of doing that. What happens if there is weather over that routing? The flight cancels? What if there’s severe turbulence? Cancel? Flight plans are filed a couple hours in advance, not days, weeks, or months.


China is worse, very strict entry and exit points, internal airways are for Chinese mainland carriers only. For weather deviation ATC will often deny any request or limit to 6-10 nm, and you declare and emergency and do it anyway.

Russia is better than China, my experience with Russian ATC has always been positive, in an emergency very good as well.

I think what would have happened in this case is Russian ATC was not given enough notice, normally they want 48 hrs notice particularly when changing the control zone entering the FIR. The reason for this is many routes have capacity limits.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos