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Jetport
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 4:49 pm

Looks like new routes are working well for Southwest so far.

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-s ... re-planes/
 
bond787
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:25 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 5:28 pm

What is the likelihood that WN will order the 737 Max10?
 
FlyingMSY
Posts: 36
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 5:34 pm

Honestly, if they need aircraft ASAP they could just lease the 73Gs that they dumped off throughout the last year... such as N918WN...
 
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Polot
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 5:55 pm

FlyingMSY wrote:
Honestly, if they need aircraft ASAP they could just lease the 73Gs that they dumped off throughout the last year... such as N918WN...

Many of those aircraft already have a new home (UA mostly).
 
MO11
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 5:55 pm

FlyingMSY wrote:
Honestly, if they need aircraft ASAP they could just lease the 73Gs that they dumped off throughout the last year... such as N918WN...


If Avelo hadn't already agreed to lease them.
 
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Boiler905
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 6:33 pm

How many MAX8's were built by Boeing but refused by customers because of safety concerns and COVID?

Surely WN could ramp up their fleet within 1-2 years on those frames (if they exist)
Boiler Up
 
Vctony
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 6:38 pm

FlyingMSY wrote:
Honestly, if they need aircraft ASAP they could just lease the 73Gs that they dumped off throughout the last year... such as N918WN...


I thought letting go of all of those 73Gs was a pretty dumb move on WN management’s part. Especially due to the fact that they made the decision to do that prior to covid and while the MAXes were still grounded.
 
bob75013
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 7:22 pm

and from the article for you A220 hopers

"We're not thinking about another airplane at all," Kelly told the Dallas Morning News. Southwest had reportedly been considering the Airbus (EADSY) A220 before deciding on the Boeing 737 Max jet in March.
 
Opus99
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 7:51 pm

The article says they need up to 500 new airplanes?? I’m assuming including what they’ve already ordered or??
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 7:58 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The article says they need up to 500 new airplanes?? I’m assuming including what they’ve already ordered or??


They article title says "hundreds more." I take that to mean more than they have and have on order.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:01 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The article says they need up to 500 new airplanes?? I’m assuming including what they’ve already ordered or??

I wouldn’t assume that at all. I believe some of those 500 airplanes are for replacement of existing equipment and some are for growth. Remember, 17 new cities added to the route map after all of the Covid cuts from 2020. Mr. Kelly is saying that in order to get back to pre pandemic depth of schedule with the addition of the 17 new cities, WN will need up to 500 more airplanes to do that. He also said it was going to take awhile to get the fleet and network built back up to that.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:07 pm

https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US
As part of the agreement, the Company also converted 70 MAX 8 firm orders to MAX 7 firm orders and added 155 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2022 through 2029. These order book additions and revisions result in a new total of 349 MAX firm orders (200 MAX 7 and 149 MAX 8) and 270 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2021 through 2031.


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:30 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US
As part of the agreement, the Company also converted 70 MAX 8 firm orders to MAX 7 firm orders and added 155 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2022 through 2029. These order book additions and revisions result in a new total of 349 MAX firm orders (200 MAX 7 and 149 MAX 8) and 270 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2021 through 2031.


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:31 pm

bob75013 wrote:
and from the article for you A220 hopers

"We're not thinking about another airplane at all," Kelly told the Dallas Morning News. Southwest had reportedly been considering the Airbus (EADSY) A220 before deciding on the Boeing 737 Max jet in March.


Boeing has demonstrated it can build MAXs in volume - the peak was, what, 52 a month. That's not true of the A220. Did they ever beat 5 a month?

Has anybody been watching the MAX 8 whitetail draw-down?
 
Jetport
Topic Author
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:42 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US
As part of the agreement, the Company also converted 70 MAX 8 firm orders to MAX 7 firm orders and added 155 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2022 through 2029. These order book additions and revisions result in a new total of 349 MAX firm orders (200 MAX 7 and 149 MAX 8) and 270 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2021 through 2031.


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.


Maybe they don't think they can sell the extra seats at a profit? Going forward they will likely have 3 plane sizes:

    737-700 - 143 seats
    737-7 MAX - 150 seats (assumed)
    737-800/MAX8 - 175 seats

If Southwest goes bigger, I think it will likely be the MAX10 with 200 seats. Southwest doesn't do sardine cans like some of the other LCC's and most ULCC's.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1088
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 8:58 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US
As part of the agreement, the Company also converted 70 MAX 8 firm orders to MAX 7 firm orders and added 155 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2022 through 2029. These order book additions and revisions result in a new total of 349 MAX firm orders (200 MAX 7 and 149 MAX 8) and 270 MAX options for MAX 7 or MAX 8 aircraft for years 2021 through 2031.


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.


All of Southwest's current fleet can serve all of Southwest's current airports.

The MAX 10 could not. Not sure about the Max 9. Midway and John Wayne come to mind.

So adding this type would complicate flight planing. Why complicate things when you do not need to.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3145
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 9:03 pm

bob75013 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.


All of Southwest's current fleet can serve all of Southwest's current airports.

The MAX 10 could not. Not sure about the Max 9. Midway and John Wayne come to mind.

So adding this type would complicate flight planing. Why complicate things when you do not need to.


Why does WN need every aircraft to serve every airport? They've had limitations before (I though an airport or a handful still could only handle 737-700s anyways). It's not that different than scheduling -800 routes versus -700 because they aren't interchangeable. You're also assuming that any additional complication outweighs benefits (like the higher capacity offerings on trunk routes); even Ryanair seems to want to -10 and its "complication" to planning.
 
MDC862
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:12 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 9:10 pm

Sounds to me like they are trying to cover the lower end of markets before the LCC's get up and running at full steam. Think frequency as opposed to 1 flight a day, which is where LCC's will do.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 9:12 pm

bob75013 wrote:
and from the article for you A220 hopers

"We're not thinking about another airplane at all," Kelly told the Dallas Morning News. Southwest had reportedly been considering the Airbus (EADSY) A220 before deciding on the Boeing 737 Max jet in March.

Considering, but Boeing made SW an offer they couldn’t refuse. And IMHO it wil happen again, because Boeing don’t want to lose SW.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 9:21 pm

bob75013 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.


All of Southwest's current fleet can serve all of Southwest's current airports.

The MAX 10 could not. Not sure about the Max 9. Midway and John Wayne come to mind.

So adding this type would complicate flight planing. Why complicate things when you do not need to.


That is an assumption not yet know, regarding the MAX-10. After all, they spent a lot of time and money on a new landing gear to address this issue. Sure, it won't be able to take off from SNA or MDW at MTOW, but it doesn't mean it can't operate from those airports on trunk routes that aren't transcons. We'll just have to wait and see how things turn out, but I think it is going to surprise a lot of people. Even if they choose not to operate it to the few airports like SNA or MDW, it can easily be flown to 98% of their airports with little to no trouble.
Whatever
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 9:59 pm

bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

A significant impetus for the -10 was to get -9 level capacities and higher, without being boxed in by the -9's takeoff limitations.
6500ft or not, it'd be rather surprising if it couldn't handily do MDW to BWI, BNA, Texas, and Florida.

It's not like they'd really need it from the west coast, as there's nearly a half-dozen airlines already doing the likes of LAX-CHI (and nearly as many from the Bay), and most of those have hubs/partners on both ends.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu May 27, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 10:18 pm

bob75013 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
https://www.swamedia.com/releases/southwest-airlines-adds-100-firm-orders-for-the-boeing-737-max-7?lang=en-US


So, these were the plans, as of the last order.

Interestingly, we have not yet discussed upgauging MAX 7s and 8s, further to 9s and/or 10s. A move in that direction might also assist in reducing the amount of aircraft needed.

Perhaps someone can assist in understanding - but from the Boeing side of the equation - what solutions can they offer (any white tails? capacity upgrades?)?


Why WN hasnt pulled the trigger on a 200 seat Max 9/10 baffles the mind. Ive been screaming this from the rooftops for a while now. The numbers make sense for them.


All of Southwest's current fleet can serve all of Southwest's current airports.

The MAX 10 could not. Not sure about the Max 9. Midway and John Wayne come to mind.

So adding this type would complicate flight planing. Why complicate things when you do not need to.


There are already subfleets...ETOPS, for example. Or if EYW service ever starts up again, I don’t think anything but a -700 or -7 would operate it. It might be flaps 25 bleeds off out of MDW half the time, but the Max10 could have a place in the fleet if the business case is made for its addition. Never say never with Southwest!
 
bob75013
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 11:29 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

.

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 11:38 pm

bob75013 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

.

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/


Just a couple of points. The article was from a couple of years ago and hasn’t been tested, so the numbers aren’t 100% accurate and are just an educated calculation at this point. Second, those numbers are based on MTOW with no wind, etc. The flight could easily be flown 1-2-3 hours (maybe more) without approaching MTOW.

Jaunts like LGA-MDW, MDW-DAL, MDW-Florida would be easily doable.
Last edited by FriscoHeavy on Thu May 27, 2021 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever
 
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Polot
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Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 11:39 pm

bob75013 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

.

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/

According to that same website so does the max8: https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-8/ ;)

Odd then that WN has so many on order. I wonder how AA successfully operates the Max8 at LGA. :scratchchin:
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 11:44 pm

bob75013 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

.

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/


...or DCA, BUR, etc. The link you provided is not exactly an accurate source of takeoff and landing performance data. Check out the data it has provided for the MAX 8.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Thu May 27, 2021 11:55 pm

The legacies are morphing into Pan Am and TWA as Southwest constantly secures their base, the US domestic market.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1880
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Fri May 28, 2021 12:03 am

orlandocfi wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....?

.

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/


...or DCA, BUR, etc. The link you provided is not exactly an accurate source of takeoff and landing performance data. Check out the data it has provided for the MAX 8.


For Hawaii or Transcon (where WN has room to grow), not to mention everywhere not SNA or Midway using this example, that is a massive market where WN could fill the 7310.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Fri May 28, 2021 1:18 am

airzona11 wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/


...or DCA, BUR, etc. The link you provided is not exactly an accurate source of takeoff and landing performance data. Check out the data it has provided for the MAX 8.


For Hawaii or Transcon (where WN has room to grow), not to mention everywhere not SNA or Midway using this example, that is a massive market where WN could fill the 7310.


Absolutely agree. I would not be surprised if those are mission types United has in mind for their Max10 fleet as well.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Fri May 28, 2021 1:27 am

Anecdotally, United is now able to fly the 737-9MAX out of OGG to the west coast off of a 7,000 ft runway. I know it’s not an apples to apples comparison (i.e. it’s often windy in Maui), but it shows you that even the -9MAX is able to do things that the -900/-900ER were not.

With the new gear, I would be shocked if the -10MAX doesn’t have better performance runway performance than the -9MAX. My belief (nothing to absolutely back it up) is that the runway performance will be somewhere between the -8MAX & -9MAX.
Whatever
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13984
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Southwest need hundreds more planes

Fri May 28, 2021 3:27 am

bob75013 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The MAX 10 could not.

Based on what? The aircraft hasn't even completed testing, and yet you're already making definitive statements on what it can and cannot do....? .

MAX 10 needs 8202 ft for takeoff and 5577 feet for landing -- John Wayne and Midway don't cut it -- apparently neither does LaGuardia

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/boeing-737-max-10/

(1) a third party site, making (2) estimations (likely calculated at MTOW), with data that (3) hasn't been finalized in testing?
Come now.... do better.


SteelChair wrote:
The legacies are morphing into Pan Am and TWA as Southwest constantly secures their base, the US domestic market.

...where on Earth are you getting this nonsensical idea from?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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