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kabq737
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FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 4:21 pm

From yahoo it appears that Boeing is halting 787 deliveries until it can be verified it’s inspection practices meet federal requirements. Seems like more information will come.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/faa-conf ... 46476.html
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LAX772LR
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 7:27 pm

Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Ziyulu
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 7:39 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(


What about 779, 748, 738, 739? There are also military planes. There are a lot more products than 737MAX and 787.
 
trex8
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 7:40 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(

There's an aerospace manufacturer with facilities in Grand Prairie, Columbus and Mobile which may be able to turn them around.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:03 pm

Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/
 
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JannEejit
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:11 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


Indeed so, but the big questions remain. What exactly are the FAA concerned about ? And what are Boeing going to do about that ?
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:18 pm

JannEejit wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


Indeed so, but the big questions remain. What exactly are the FAA concerned about ? And what are Boeing going to do about that ?

The quality inspection is what they’re worried about. The WSJ article I posted in the 787 production thread explains everything.

Boeing has one way of inspecting

FAA recommends another way till Boeing can prove their way works (with more documentation) they have to use the FAAs requirements but that is much longer and much more labour hours.

So here we are

An American that was supposed to go out today I think has been pushed to next week
 
AA737-823
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:21 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What about 779, 748, 738, 739? There are also military planes. There are a lot more products than 737MAX and 787.


Of the planes you listed, only the 747 is actually a product that Boeing is currently able to deliver. And a 747 rolls off the line only once every TWO MONTHS. Plus, production is wrapping up; I think they're down to fewer than 10 left in the pipeline?
The 779 is not certificated, and won't be for years.
The 737NG line ceased production years ago.
So, your info is quite obsolete.

This is a problem that has been building, rather than subsiding, for some time now. Boeing has painted itself into a corner, where they are able to "sell" orders for airplanes, but due to their own internal corruption and laziness, are not actually able to deliver aircraft, nor charge any money.
That the MAX and 77X programs are a disaster is no secret. And, even as a huge historic Boeing fan, I must say that they have no one to blame but themselves.
 
AA737-823
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:24 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


Not really; that argument would make sense on a NEW product.
But a product that has been serially produced for over a decade?
I'm not buying it.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:27 pm

"Voluntarily" stopped whilst the FAA waits on further data from Boeing to assess if they are in a position to approve the process or not. You don't stop if you assume it's just a weekend to bridge.
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keesje
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:27 pm

Only good signal is that now FAA decides in cases of disagreement. That's where a lot of trouble started before.

Competiveness and effiency took over and then safety kicked back disastrously.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:27 pm

You’ll never find a bigger Boeing supporter than I am, but it has to be said - you don’t see Airbus running into these kind of issues. Credit where it’s due.

I hope Boeing can get its house in order. It’s sort of embarrassing to read about constant issues like this. Is it safe to say that the last overall trouble free Boeing launch was the original 777 in the mid 90s? Whatever the culture was at that time - get back to that.
Spread hope like fire.
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:33 pm

SunsetLimited wrote:
You’ll never find a bigger Boeing supporter than I am, but it has to be said - you don’t see Airbus running into these kind of issues. Credit where it’s due.

I hope Boeing can get its house in order. It’s sort of embarrassing to read about constant issues like this. Is it safe to say that the last overall trouble free Boeing launch was the original 777 in the mid 90s? Whatever the culture was at that time - get back to that.

100%

Boeing is reaping what they’ve sewn. Everything that is coming up now. If you notice these are not things that started today. They’re only just starting to break down everywhere and I will not be surprised if we see more things that they have to clean out
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:37 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


Not really; that argument would make sense on a NEW product.
But a product that has been serially produced for over a decade?
I'm not buying it.

They’re not questioning the product. They’re questioning the process for quality inspection. I am assuming here that Boeing can build a 787 that has no quality issues. The question is when one is not of that quality, how do you spot it? Do you use a half baked ass way or do you do it properly. If you say so then show us. If not then use this way.

But if Boeing wanted to continue delivering it doesn’t seem to me that anybody would want to stop that.

FAA released a statement that Boeing chose to halt themselves.
 
dougbr2006
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:42 pm

Boeing has lost the engineering culture for $$$ paid to shareholders.

It may be impossible to get back to where they were 30 years ago in the hey day of engineering excellence at Boeing
.
Once the fat cows are accustomed to their $$$ it will be difficult to peg back the $$$ for them in exchange for quality built aircraft.

This certainly proves that you cannot let aircraft manufacturers police themselves on correct procedures and quality.

The FAA need to cut them off on self certification until they have a long period of time producing without quality issues before its too late.
 
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LH748
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 8:43 pm

A former great company that suffered massively under mismanagement and the toxic management is still largely in place. It's sad to see the decline of Boeing but currently no one should buy anything from them.
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hivue
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 9:25 pm

So the FAA announces that Boeing is suspending 787 deliveries instead of Boeing announcing that Boeing is suspending 787 deliveries. How much of this getting out front on the announcement is virtue signalling by the FAA?

There have been suggestions that some portion of Boeing's C suite go on temporary duty to Seattle to get things at BCA sorted out. I can't decide if this is a good idea or a bad idea.
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LAX772LR
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 9:25 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What about 779, 748, 738, 739? There are also military planes. There are a lot more products than 737MAX and 787.

At least pay attention, if you're going to comment in rebuttal: I said they only deliver two pax planes.

The 779 has not yet started being delivered to customers, and won't for years.
The remaining 748s are freighters.
The 738 and 739 are no longer produced.
And military planes are.... military planes.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flipdewaf
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 9:27 pm

SunsetLimited wrote:
You’ll never find a bigger Boeing supporter than I am, but it has to be said - you don’t see Airbus running into these kind of issues. Credit where it’s due.

I hope Boeing can get its house in order. It’s sort of embarrassing to read about constant issues like this. Is it safe to say that the last overall trouble free Boeing launch was the original 777 in the mid 90s? Whatever the culture was at that time - get back to that.

I know we all know it but I think is the time we are all thinking about: https://youtu.be/0oyWZjdXxlw

I hope Boeing can get back to these ways.

Fred


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gatibosgru
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 9:37 pm

Is this due to previous concerns with CHS Dreamliners?
@DadCelo
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 9:44 pm

There is a backlog of 11 777-300ER.... and 43 777Fs. Not many, but produceable and deliverable if the customers will take them, no?

That said.. in terms of Commerical Passenger lift, the 737MAX and 787 are the only ones that are delivered in numbers.

Worst is behind them with 767 Tanker, no? 747-8F has a 2 or 3 white tails to be finished up. Other than MAX7 (derivative shrink, already flown), MAX10 (derivative stretch), and 779 (nexgen derivative, already flown) that are in development and some 39 763F freighters, 41 738A P8s to build.. there's not allot occupying them.
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WayexTDI
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 10:53 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(

How many times has the 787 been grounded? I can only think of one time (January through April 2013) due to the battery catching fire.
As far as the 737MAX, it also has been grounded only once (March 2019 through November 2020).
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 10:53 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
There is a backlog of 11 777-300ER....


Whoops... I just learned (by reading the dedicated thread) that the last 777-300ER has been built. Of those 11, 6 have been built but not delivered, and the 5 PakAir order will probably be cancelled. So, they have those 777Fs to build, but that's it for any 777 program until the 777X gets straightened out (no pun intended).

WayexTDI wrote:
How many times has the 787 been grounded? I can only think of one time (January through April 2013) due to the battery catching fire.
As far as the 737MAX, it also has been grounded only once (March 2019 through November 2020).


Maybe not grounded multiple times, but have definitely had deliveries halted... That's sort of a pre-emptive self grounding of undelivered planes. There were those MAX frames that were down for a while over the 'electrical grounding issue'. There were 787 deliveries halted because of the join issues...
learning never stops...

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WayexTDI
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 11:07 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
How many times has the 787 been grounded? I can only think of one time (January through April 2013) due to the battery catching fire.
As far as the 737MAX, it also has been grounded only once (March 2019 through November 2020).


Maybe not grounded multiple times, but have definitely had deliveries halted... That's sort of a pre-emptive self grounding of undelivered planes. There were those MAX frames that were down for a while over the 'electrical grounding issue'. There were 787 deliveries halted because of the join issues...

That's a lot of difference: grounding of planes mean that type is no longer allowed to fly, be it a day old or 20 years old. Stopping deliveries is reserved to a set of frames, but their sisterships are still allowed to fly.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Fri May 28, 2021 11:21 pm

I think the trouble is, that Boeing had cut the workforce in quality control to cut cost. Quality control was deemed unnecessary in modern production. Now Boeing is hiring, the question is perhaps how fast you can build a serious quality control again.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 12:34 am

WayexTDI wrote:
How many times has the 787 been grounded? I can only think of one time (January through April 2013) due to the battery catching fire.
As far as the 737MAX, it also has been grounded only once (March 2019 through November 2020).

I'll revise that, as the situation is too nebulous to apply the specific term "grounding."

They haven't been grounded multiple times regarding service; though they've had to have deliveries halted or specific units stopped from flying due to defect of some type or other.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 6:49 am

Pathetic, I’m so disappointed to see what this company has become.
 
smartplane
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 7:00 am

hivue wrote:
So the FAA announces that Boeing is suspending 787 deliveries instead of Boeing announcing that Boeing is suspending 787 deliveries.


Should it be:
So the FAA announces that Boeing is suspending 787 deliveries instead of Boeing announcing that FAA is suspending 787 deliveries.
 
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enzo011
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 7:20 am

WayexTDI wrote:
That's a lot of difference: grounding of planes mean that type is no longer allowed to fly, be it a day old or 20 years old. Stopping deliveries is reserved to a set of frames, but their sisterships are still allowed to fly.



So the silver lining of the halting of deliveries vs a grounding is that not all operators are affected? Only those that were due to get it will be upset about not getting their aircraft in time. The effect on Boeing is the same, no income for the time that no aircraft are being delivered.
 
737MAX7
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 7:56 am

As others have said in this thread I am also a huge Boeing fan that is wondering what the heck is going on. Between the MAX problems, these new 787 problems, the 77X delays and the dumpster fire that is the KC-46 i find myself having a hard time rooting for them and defending them.
 
marcelh
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 8:11 am

OTOH: Boeing has managed to pump out some 1,000 B787s and those airlines aren’t returning their planes because they are not safe to fly. The issues with the RR engines had much more impact
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 8:20 am

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ing-fixes/

Dominic gates highlights it better. he says it may just be a show us your homework situation. FAA already approved Boeing to restart when it did and they say there have been no further concerns. So it may be a matter of documentation.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 8:25 am

Opus99 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


Indeed so, but the big questions remain. What exactly are the FAA concerned about ? And what are Boeing going to do about that ?

The quality inspection is what they’re worried about. The WSJ article I posted in the 787 production thread explains everything.

Boeing has one way of inspecting

FAA recommends another way till Boeing can prove their way works (with more documentation) they have to use the FAAs requirements but that is much longer and much more labour hours.

So here we are

An American that was supposed to go out today I think has been pushed to next week


Boeing choosing their way over the FAA way before didn't work out too well.
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 8:55 am

AA737-823 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What about 779, 748, 738, 739? There are also military planes. There are a lot more products than 737MAX and 787.


Of the planes you listed, only the 747 is actually a product that Boeing is currently able to deliver. And a 747 rolls off the line only once every TWO MONTHS. Plus, production is wrapping up; I think they're down to fewer than 10 left in the pipeline?
The 779 is not certificated, and won't be for years.
The 737NG line ceased production years ago.
So, your info is quite obsolete.

This is a problem that has been building, rather than subsiding, for some time now. Boeing has painted itself into a corner, where they are able to "sell" orders for airplanes, but due to their own internal corruption and laziness, are not actually able to deliver aircraft, nor charge any money.
That the MAX and 77X programs are a disaster is no secret. And, even as a huge historic Boeing fan, I must say that they have no one to blame but themselves.


Agree I have been a Boeing fan from childhood. After the MDC merger I have seen them go the cheapest routes for upgrades to older models & rushing new tech and getting smacked for failures in safety & manufacturing quality. Reported by their own customers. Sad to see Boeings board being to scared to tell the bean counters enough is enough.
 
rbavfan
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 8:57 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Boeing has chosen to temporarily stop deliveries, only because the FAA has not approved Boeing’s proposal for planned inspections to meet federal guidelines. There is huge difference between voluntarily stopping deliveries as opposed to having the FAA order it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-28/


When a manufacturer chooses to stop production while they are being investigated. It's to make themselves look good when they know there is a problem. get out in front of the issue and play dumb.
 
CRJockey
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 10:41 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-halts-787-deliveries-again-as-it-awaits-faa-approval-on-verifying-fixes/

Dominic gates highlights it better. he says it may just be a show us your homework situation. FAA already approved Boeing to restart when it did and they say there have been no further concerns. So it may be a matter of documentation.


Well, in aviation there is no „just“ a matter of documentation.
Documentation is an integral part of the business and required for certification of products, standards and processes. It is as important as the design and procedures itself. If you have your production halt or being halted, you simply haven’t done your job properly. No way to excuse that. Foul job.
 
RTWin10
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 11:34 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-halts-787-deliveries-again-as-it-awaits-faa-approval-on-verifying-fixes/

Dominic gates highlights it better. he says it may just be a show us your homework situation. FAA already approved Boeing to restart when it did and they say there have been no further concerns. So it may be a matter of documentation.


The article goes on to talk about Boeing’s preference of using statistical sampling to narrow down areas that need to be inspected vs. taking apart the airplane interior to complete the inspection process.

It will be interesting to see how long the FAA takes to approve the streamlined inspection process. More importantly, as an airline customer, would I be satisfied with statistical sampling vs ocular verification?
 
Lilj4425
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 12:33 pm

It’s like watching a bad car accident.
 
Breathe
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 12:40 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(

It's no coincidence things started to go downhill after the "merger" with McDonnell Douglas and moving the corporate headquarters from Seattle to Chicago.

Hopefully they can sort things out sooner rather than later.
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 12:43 pm

Everybody talks about the McD merger being the root cause of all this. Imagine how BAD mcD must have been to be the root cause of the rot of a company the size of Boeing.

Also can someone explain why Boeing felt the merger was necessary? Especially if McD was heading towards being defunct anyway?
 
CRJockey
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 12:50 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Everybody talks about the McD merger being the root cause of all this. Imagine how BAD mcD must have been to be the root cause of the rot of a company the size of Boeing.

Also can someone explain why Boeing felt the merger was necessary? Especially if McD was heading towards being defunct anyway?


Imho, the merger was done to obtain the military business. Commercial was a (annoying) side effect.

But I agree, the explanation around pointing the finger to McD is too simple. What would it say about Boeing corporate culture if the merger partner suddenly makes everything worse.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:08 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Everybody talks about the McD merger being the root cause of all this. Imagine how BAD mcD must have been to be the root cause of the rot of a company the size of Boeing.

Also can someone explain why Boeing felt the merger was necessary? Especially if McD was heading towards being defunct anyway?


I think that it is a bit of a myth, that the merger is directly responsible for a decline at Boeing. I could imagine a turning point was the moving of the Headquarters to Chicago. And that effect was not immediate. But after a while a that big geographical separation of Headquarters and design and production centers will get them out of step.

Airbus is here on a.net often accused of being to far distributed and looking at Mobil and Tianjin that may be true. But those two operations are tightly controlled assembly and outfitting stations only. The main production, design and decision making centers are in the same time zone, with the UK being on hour of, but not even an hour of flight time.

I assume the problem started with the amateurish outsourcing around the 787, the following relentless cost cutting and the reduction of quality control, a part of the cost cutting operation.

The merger was done to combine the military side of both companies, I assume to reduce competition.
 
Jalap
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:13 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Just so sad to see what Boeing's become.

They only deliver two pax plane products (737MAX and 787), both have been grounded multiple times, and IINM they both hold the narrowbody and widebody records for grounding, as well as the former with the all-time grounding record for a plane returned to service.

This company needs to be gutted and and cleaned out on EVERY executive and supervisory level. :(

In order to agree or disagee, one should try to estimate if this company is creating less value for the shareholders than what could have been possible. For that is the only thing that matters in today's world.
Would the shareholders have been happier if quality and costs were higher? Or is where they are right now the perfect balancing point?
Is Boeing any different than other "too big to fail" corporations?

This is all quite sad from an aviation enthousiast standpoint. But it's the way of the world... . Announce big, underdeliver and get away with it. I see that everywhere.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:23 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Everybody talks about the McD merger being the root cause of all this. Imagine how BAD mcD must have been to be the root cause of the rot of a company the size of Boeing.

Also can someone explain why Boeing felt the merger was necessary? Especially if McD was heading towards being defunct anyway?


I think that it is a bit of a myth, that the merger is directly responsible for a decline at Boeing. I could imagine a turning point was the moving of the Headquarters to Chicago. And that effect was not immediate. But after a while a that big geographical separation of Headquarters and design and production centers will get them out of step.

Airbus is here on a.net often accused of being to far distributed and looking at Mobil and Tianjin that may be true. But those two operations are tightly controlled assembly and outfitting stations only. The main production, design and decision making centers are in the same time zone, with the UK being on hour of, but not even an hour of flight time.

I assume the problem started with the amateurish outsourcing around the 787, the following relentless cost cutting and the reduction of quality control, a part of the cost cutting operation.

The merger was done to combine the military side of both companies, I assume to reduce competition.

I sometimes wonder how much Boeing would save just doing it properly the first time. Especially on the 87 and the MAX. There’s too much short termism going on. Let me hope by saying there WAS too much short termism going on.

How much extra would it have even possibly cost to just build the plane like they built the 777 instead all the outsourcing.

But I’ve also heard that Boeing did not want to spend the amount of money they spent on the 777 but In that money they spent to get the 777 right it must’ve paid for them by now
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:24 pm

It's time to de-McDonnell Douglas this company. Let someone from Boeing take control of Boeing.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:33 pm

I find it funny that folks bring McDonnell Douglas to the mix of these problems. It’s kind of like saying bad management at American Airlines was the result of US Airways.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:38 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
It's time to de-McDonnell Douglas this company. Let someone from Boeing take control of Boeing.

But that’s also the problem. The people from Boeing are running the company. Let’s not forget Dennis
 
excalibur
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:49 pm

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:39 pm

SunsetLimited wrote:
Is it safe to say that the last overall trouble free Boeing launch was the original 777 in the mid 90s? Whatever the culture was at that time - get back to that.


I totally agree with this. The 777 is such a great and beautiful piece of engineering. Maybe the last true Boeing aircraft if I may say. This is the Boeing we love and we miss.
Aviation is an Art
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:43 pm

excalibur wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
Is it safe to say that the last overall trouble free Boeing launch was the original 777 in the mid 90s? Whatever the culture was at that time - get back to that.


I totally agree with this. The 777 is such a great and beautiful piece of engineering. Maybe the last true Boeing aircraft if I may say. This is the Boeing we love and we miss.


What about the 747? Wasn't that successful as well?
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: FAA Confirms Boeing Halts 787 Deliveries

Sat May 29, 2021 1:48 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Everybody talks about the McD merger being the root cause of all this. Imagine how BAD mcD must have been to be the root cause of the rot of a company the size of Boeing.

Also can someone explain why Boeing felt the merger was necessary? Especially if McD was heading towards being defunct anyway?

The history would need to go many decades back in 1997. The merger was initiated by Frank Shrontz, Boeing CEO at that point of time. Boeing got greedy and wanted a bigger piece of the defense business pie. The fastest way to scale up was to buy an existing company. McD was limping in its final months, their commercial business was almost dead but it was the defense business Boeing was eyeing for. Then came the merger. McD executive had made so much strategic mistakes/ blunder as they squeezed the company for short term profit and refused to invest in growth yet for some unknown reason Boeing promoted ex-McD managers and executive to leadership position, instead of their own. Hence at popular phrase at that time was "McDonnell took over Boeing using Boeing's money."

Boeing was run by engineers, they had the qualification, held many patents, pioneer in many ground breaking engineering but these were all drowned by McD bean counter working ethics which relentless pursue cost cutting, warm over current models at the expense of complete innovation. Basically it was clash of corporate culture. The merger brought so much headache to Boeing especially those dated commercial aircraft design from McD, especially the MD-80s. Three years after merger as the dust was just about to settle, flight AS261 crash happened.

The Boeing CEO after Frank Shrontz, Phil Condit, was a brilliant engineer, but not much of a leader. He feared that Boeing shouldn't be relying on the cyclical commercial aviation market, and should dabbled in other business too military, support services, and space. In search of stability, McD merger was necessary for Boeing. Much of the business decision for commercial division was delegated to former McD CEO Harry Stonecipher, who woefully underperformed. Airbus, in no time, successfully managed to crack into US both narrow and wide body market (Pan Am narrowbody deal was a failure tbh) with US Airways deal for 400 A320 family aircraft in 1997 and in 1998 for 30 A330-300 aircraft. If this wasn't enough, JetBlue order for 75 A320 in 1998 added more salt to the wound. Since then Airbus has been an equal dominant player in US narrowbody was much as Boeing.

Stonecipher wasted billions of Boeing money on non-core business: financial services, aircraft leasing business, in-flight internet business (anyone still remember Connexion by Boeing?) — everything else but making real quality airplanes.

The saving grace was Alan Mulally who was an all rounder engineer (from airplane development activities, flight test operations, certification, and government technical liaison); he managed to get Stonecipher’s reluctant approval for a plan to develop an all-composite plane, the 787, a plane which eventually reasserted Boeing’s technological leadership in commercial aviation industry. Condit and Stonecipher were trying hard to push for Sonic Cruiser then! Both of them were the brainchild behind 787 program outsourcing, which turned out to be disaster as many outside contractors were unable to deliver the components they had promised, quality and quantity-wise. The 787 was delivered few years late, suffered billions of cost overruns, only got better when Boeing took over control some of its outsourcing partners' work. Even till today, the 787 is not as profitable as it could be for Boeing because the outsourcing arrangements meant Boeing’s outsourcing partners get paid a large share of the profits. Condit was forced to resign in 2003 and Stonecipher in 2005, everyone would have thought Mulally would take over however he was passed over, soon he left Boeing for Ford in 2006. The McD legacy continues till today. It took B787 debacle and B737 MAX grounding to wake up Boeing. Hopefully they did wake up.
Last edited by RoyalBrunei757 on Sat May 29, 2021 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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