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orlandocfi
Posts: 130
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 2:44 pm

Can anyone familiar with the older Citations weigh in on why the sound of ignitions were audible on the ATC tape? Is there some sort of auto relight function or a standard procedure to have ignitions on in certain atmospheric conditions?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 3:02 pm

Standard was to have the igniters on for take-off, landing, heavy rain and icing. They bleed thru the cockpit audio pretty noticeably. 2,500 hours in the early ones
 
N766UA
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 3:13 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
N766UA wrote:
I’m not sure where people are getting this “he didnt have a medical or a type” info from. A quick search shows him with a current first class medical certificate and numerous type ratings, including Citation 500’s and 560’s.

Are you looking at the right William Joseph Lara? Because he only has 1 type rating (the Cessna 500) and his medical has certainly expired for his age.


Oh, William. I guess I confused him with an ATP from Sacramento. Yeah he does appear have an expired third class, then.

orlandocfi wrote:
Can anyone familiar with the older Citations weigh in on why the sound of ignitions were audible on the ATC tape? Is there some sort of auto relight function or a standard procedure to have ignitions on in certain atmospheric conditions?


I don’t have any CJ time, but in the jets I’ve flown it’s standard to have the ignition on for high winds/crosswinds, contaminated runways, moderate+ precip, etc.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 3:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Standard was to have the igniters on for take-off, landing, heavy rain and icing. They bleed thru the cockpit audio pretty noticeably. 2,500 hours in the early ones


Thank you for that helpful info.

I just recalled a owner-flown CJ crash a few years ago in Cleveland. Spatial disorientation in night VMC was the cause of that accident that killed him and his family.
Even if this Smyrna accident wasn’t hard IFR, I can see how things might quickly unravel if there was a faulty instrument or if the pilot was not mentally prepared for the conditions he was about to encounter.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 5:07 pm

tenHangar wrote:
I know there was low cloud cover, but am surprised there are no witness accounts on this busy recreational lake. Not just visual, but no mention of engine noise prior to impact. This raises the probability of engine failure versus medical issues or pilot error/disorientation. The only "witnesses" i can find online are witnesses to the emergency response.

There were a couple who saw/heard them hit the water, but it was an unusually cold and crappy day. Was supposed to fly that morning, but passed. Scud-running, especially that low, is not my thing.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 6:28 pm

Something like 010-015 OVC and 10 mile visibility, not too bad even for local VFR.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 7:37 pm

Correct me if i"m wrong but isn't the USA one of the few countries that allows single pilot IFR?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 7:45 pm

For FAA commercial ops, not authorized with limited exception of 135 charter with autopilot. For private ops, no limitations other than aircraft certification. I’m pretty sure, for private operators, there are few countries that require two pilots for IFR with the obvious exception of AFM limitations. It’d be pretty hard to require two pilots in a Cessna.

As to single-pilot jet operations like this, yes, the FAA is the exception allowing it.
 
hivue
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 7:47 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
Correct me if i"m wrong but isn't the USA one of the few countries that allows single pilot IFR?


If most countries prohibited single pilot IFR that would severely compromise their military operations with single seat fighters.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 8:10 pm

Hivue civil regulations don't usually apply to military operations in a lot of cases.
 
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TheLunchbox
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 8:21 pm

tenHangar wrote:
I know there was low cloud cover, but am surprised there are no witness accounts on this busy recreational lake. Not just visual, but no mention of engine noise prior to impact. This raises the probability of engine failure versus medical issues or pilot error/disorientation. The only "witnesses" i can find online are witnesses to the emergency response.


It wasn't recreational or boating weather. No one's going to the lake on a dreary day. So there ya go.
 
mcdu
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Mon May 31, 2021 8:27 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
filejw wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aren’t there different lower restrictions to fly the plane part 91 only?


Well you could be a private pilot and VFR only but you still need a current medical certificate to act as pilot in command legally.

Has everyone forgotten Basic Med?


Doesn’t apply in a turbojet
 
meecrob
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:06 am

Medicals apply no matter what the powerplant, unless I am missing a joke?
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
For FAA commercial ops, not authorized with limited exception of 135 charter with autopilot. For private ops, no limitations other than aircraft certification. I’m pretty sure, for private operators, there are few countries that require two pilots for IFR with the obvious exception of AFM limitations. It’d be pretty hard to require two pilots in a Cessna.

As to single-pilot jet operations like this, yes, the FAA is the exception allowing it.



Maybe in the passenger world, but there's a ton of 135 box haulers flying around single pilot, no autopilot.
From my cold, dead hands
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:05 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
For FAA commercial ops, not authorized with limited exception of 135 charter with autopilot. For private ops, no limitations other than aircraft certification. I’m pretty sure, for private operators, there are few countries that require two pilots for IFR with the obvious exception of AFM limitations. It’d be pretty hard to require two pilots in a Cessna.

As to single-pilot jet operations like this, yes, the FAA is the exception allowing it.



Maybe in the passenger world, but there's a ton of 135 box haulers flying around single pilot, no autopilot.


True, many moons ago, I was one, cancelled checks.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:06 am

meecrob wrote:
Medicals apply no matter what the powerplant, unless I am missing a joke?


Can’t legally fly a jet while possessing a Basic Medical, must 1st, 2nd or 3rd Class. Basic Medical is not a certificate, limited to under 6,000 pounds TOGW, 5 or fewer passengers.
 
N766UA
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Medicals apply no matter what the powerplant, unless I am missing a joke?


Can’t legally fly a jet while possessing a Basic Medical, must 1st, 2nd or 3rd Class. Basic Medical is not a certificate, limited to under 6,000 pounds TOGW, 5 or fewer passengers.


I don’t think anyone without an ATP or at the bare minimum a CPL should be in a turbojet, personally. Even turboprops seem to be a serious handful for private pilots. I feel like I see these kinds of crashes a lot, and often someone’s poor family pays the price.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:41 pm

N766UA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Medicals apply no matter what the powerplant, unless I am missing a joke?


Can’t legally fly a jet while possessing a Basic Medical, must 1st, 2nd or 3rd Class. Basic Medical is not a certificate, limited to under 6,000 pounds TOGW, 5 or fewer passengers.


I don’t think anyone without an ATP or at the bare minimum a CPL should be in a turbojet, personally. Even turboprops seem to be a serious handful for private pilots. I feel like I see these kinds of crashes a lot, and often someone’s poor family pays the price.


High performance piston twins are bad enough, much less turboprops. The dentist who crashed the Beech Duke at Fullerton a couple years back and the dude who killed six in that Baron in TX immediately come to mind.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
jetskipper
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:08 pm

Does the C-501 have a CVR and/or FDR?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:20 pm

jetskipper wrote:
Does the C-501 have a CVR and/or FDR?


May have been installed but not original equipment or required by regulation. If the plane had been on an AOC, it might have an FDR, less likely CVR
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N766UA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Can’t legally fly a jet while possessing a Basic Medical, must 1st, 2nd or 3rd Class. Basic Medical is not a certificate, limited to under 6,000 pounds TOGW, 5 or fewer passengers.


I don’t think anyone without an ATP or at the bare minimum a CPL should be in a turbojet, personally. Even turboprops seem to be a serious handful for private pilots. I feel like I see these kinds of crashes a lot, and often someone’s poor family pays the price.


High performance piston twins are bad enough, much less turboprops. The dentist who crashed the Beech Duke at Fullerton a couple years back and the dude who killed six in that Baron in TX immediately come to mind.


Richard Collins decades ago showed piston twins had higher fatal accident rates than piston singles. Age on them hasn’t made the record any better. Part 23 twins have some built-in hazards. Actually, a jet is far simpler in operation and, by their design and performance, should be safer. The record does not uphold the theory. USAF ATC gives 100-hour pilots a very high performance plane to solo on, T-38s. Training standards and supervision matters.

If I had the choice of a C-501 or a Beech Duke to fly single-pilot, I’d take the Citation every time. Easier, better design, more forgiving.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:52 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
I quickly looked at the ACS and couldn't find anything that states that but I could have missed it. If it does then it's in disagreement with FAR 61.23 which clearly states that you don't need one for exams in a simulator...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.23

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate -
(8) When taking a practical test or a proficiency check for a certificate, rating, authorization or operating privilege conducted in a glider, balloon, flight simulator, or flight training device; or


The subtlety might be that you can do the test because there is no danger since it's in a sim, by you can't get the rating until you prove you have a medical.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N766UA wrote:

I don’t think anyone without an ATP or at the bare minimum a CPL should be in a turbojet, personally. Even turboprops seem to be a serious handful for private pilots. I feel like I see these kinds of crashes a lot, and often someone’s poor family pays the price.


High performance piston twins are bad enough, much less turboprops. The dentist who crashed the Beech Duke at Fullerton a couple years back and the dude who killed six in that Baron in TX immediately come to mind.


Richard Collins decades ago showed piston twins had higher fatal accident rates than piston singles. Age on them hasn’t made the record any better. Part 23 twins have some built-in hazards. Actually, a jet is far simpler in operation and, by their design and performance, should be safer. The record does not uphold the theory. USAF ATC gives 100-hour pilots a very high performance plane to solo on, T-38s. Training standards and supervision matters.

If I had the choice of a C-501 or a Beech Duke to fly single-pilot, I’d take the Citation every time. Easier, better design, more forgiving.


Probably why Collins swore by his C210 all those years. Agreed on the difference from jets though - I have been fortunate to sit up front in flight on the M2 and BE35...with the exception of things happening faster on approach, the workload is much better than in my friend's BE58. GA does seem to persistently suffer from standards and supervision...though that said, the Baron accident in TX I mentioned involved a guy who was ATP-rated and fairly high time.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
meecrob
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Medicals apply no matter what the powerplant, unless I am missing a joke?


Can’t legally fly a jet while possessing a Basic Medical, must 1st, 2nd or 3rd Class. Basic Medical is not a certificate, limited to under 6,000 pounds TOGW, 5 or fewer passengers.



Well yeah, I imagine anyone professional would have a 1st class. I mean I fly tonka toys and I have a 1st class.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:56 pm

I think all of the discussion of whether the guy's medical was current misses the point. As does the issue of whether he had an IR (which he would have to have had).

They're dead. It doesn't matter if there was a rules violation. Unlikely a current medical would have made a difference, and lining up the holes in the cheese is where the investigation needs to go.

The bigger question is how did the guy get into trouble, and it's fairly apparent that the conditions were ripe for the accident to occur even if the plane performed flawlessly. Low time, low time on type, taking off into a high-ish workload, no-question-about-it somatogravic-illusion-likely flight profile. Add in the number of people on board and the topped-off tanks (i.e. likely heavy aircraft), consider the low Vmo speed on these earliest Citations, and you, again, just need pilot error by itself to produce this outcome.

Nobody wanted to believe the Addison King Air crash could be pure, unadulterated pilot error, but it was. Flavored, of course, with procedural and systemic failures that were part of the pilot error.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
I think all of the discussion of whether the guy's medical was current misses the point. As does the issue of whether he had an IR (which he would have to have had).

They're dead. It doesn't matter if there was a rules violation. Unlikely a current medical would have made a difference, and lining up the holes in the cheese is where the investigation needs to go.

The bigger question is how did the guy get into trouble, and it's fairly apparent that the conditions were ripe for the accident to occur even if the plane performed flawlessly. Low time, low time on type, taking off into a high-ish workload, no-question-about-it somatogravic-illusion-likely flight profile. Add in the number of people on board and the topped-off tanks (i.e. likely heavy aircraft), consider the low Vmo speed on these earliest Citations, and you, again, just need pilot error by itself to produce this outcome.

Nobody wanted to believe the Addison King Air crash could be pure, unadulterated pilot error, but it was. Flavored, of course, with procedural and systemic failures that were part of the pilot error.

FAA updated the database to show his current 11/2019 medical.
Like I said, the FAA is sometimes slow to post non- critical data, like government employee slow. And that was BEFORE Covid.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:31 am

Reporters reporting all this stuff about the guy not being legal to fly the plane, based on his medical not being current, which they didn't confirm with anyone at the FAA but only got from the online search.

Now it turns out he was legal to fly the plane, and I guarantee you there will be minimal retractions. In the old days, an editor would have told them they couldn't publish what they did, because they had no confirmation of either the facts or the deduction that they made from the facts. Today -- clicks count more than accuracy.

Lots of folks on here were saying that he couldn't have gotten his type rating without a current medical. Looks like they were right.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Private plane goes down in Smyrna Tennessee

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:55 pm

Again I have sympathy for the reporters (as well as for the survivors of all those untimely deaths). Here in western Washington where we once had thousands of reporters, we now have hundreds. They are spread so thin every crack, crevice and ding shows. It is not pretty.
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