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seahawk
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:36 am

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Yes, really. No one seems to be surprised that STC is saying the same thing about 779, why should we not take AAB at his word? QR has a track record of not accepting aircraft that they are not satisfied with.


At least it shows that Airbus is also having quality control issues.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:23 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

The problem for Airbus (and Boeing) is that their list of potential customers is limited. And some of them are a pain in the butt. But their money is still good. So the best strategy is to suck it up and deal with it. But I am sure that somewhere in their price structure is something like an aggravation factor. John Leahy put that explicitly when he said he’d be happy to sell MOL all the planes he wanted at list price. AAB and STC can bellow and bluster all they want, but in the end I am sure that they will pay for it.
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:36 pm

SEPilot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

The problem for Airbus (and Boeing) is that their list of potential customers is limited. And some of them are a pain in the butt. But their money is still good. So the best strategy is to suck it up and deal with it. But I am sure that somewhere in their price structure is something like an aggravation factor. John Leahy put that explicitly when he said he’d be happy to sell MOL all the planes he wanted at list price. AAB and STC can bellow and bluster all they want, but in the end I am sure that they will pay for it.


That's very interesting comment.

I would respond, "The problem for Qatar(and Emirates) is that their list of potential aircraft suppliers is limited to two." LOL
 
mig17
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:31 pm

VV wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

The problem for Airbus (and Boeing) is that their list of potential customers is limited. And some of them are a pain in the butt. But their money is still good. So the best strategy is to suck it up and deal with it. But I am sure that somewhere in their price structure is something like an aggravation factor. John Leahy put that explicitly when he said he’d be happy to sell MOL all the planes he wanted at list price. AAB and STC can bellow and bluster all they want, but in the end I am sure that they will pay for it.


That's very interesting comment.

I would respond, "The problem for Qatar(and Emirates) is that their list of potential aircraft suppliers is limited to two." LOL

The problem of Qatar and Emirates is that there business model may be dead while they still have a load of large aircraft in their fleet and another load on order.
Their business model consisting in being giant longhaul hubs in the middle of "nowhere" and not keeping aircraft for more than 12 years:
- Business travel is down and may not come back as it was. I had the chance to travel to Qatar from France in March with Qatar Airways in QSuites. The experience was wonderfull. But both the brand new A35K to go their and the 77W on the way back were not even a third full in all classes.
- Now that 787-9 or A350-900 are "massively" flying, it is more difficult for hub airlines to compete with direct flights.
- The used aircraft market is gone so they can't offload there current fleet at optimal conditions anymore to finance it's replacement.

The reason why both Emirates and Qatar Airways want to delay deliveries as long as possible if not get rid of their orders is clear. They won't need new planes, espacialy the larger ones, for 5 to 10 years and they won't be able to pay for them without large help with consequences from their home countries.

The only questions are in each case, how strong are their quality claims to justify per contract refusing an aircraft acceptance and how far are they ready to go if their justification is not that solid?

The case of Qatar Airways, fighting with "only" cosmetic non-conformance seems light here to "refuse all further deliveries" even if I know too well how much Qatar people value cosmetic.
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SEPilot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm

VV wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

The problem for Airbus (and Boeing) is that their list of potential customers is limited. And some of them are a pain in the butt. But their money is still good. So the best strategy is to suck it up and deal with it. But I am sure that somewhere in their price structure is something like an aggravation factor. John Leahy put that explicitly when he said he’d be happy to sell MOL all the planes he wanted at list price. AAB and STC can bellow and bluster all they want, but in the end I am sure that they will pay for it.


That's very interesting comment.

I would respond, "The problem for Qatar(and Emirates) is that their list of potential aircraft suppliers is limited to two." LOL

Very true. So it is in nobody’s best interest to piss off your customers or suppliers. But some don’t seem to grasp that concept.
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FlyThiz
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:12 pm

Oooooo. Someone pissed off al Baker again. What else is new?
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DocLightning
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:06 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
This guy loves to throw his toys out the pram. Wasn't one of his disputes before about carpet?


That's the rumor, but AFAIK it was never confirmed.

Either way, it would be nice if he would behave like a professional for once. I'm not holding my breath.
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:24 pm

FlyThiz wrote:
Oooooo. Someone pissed off al Baker again. What else is new?


He wants to compare the A350F vs the 777-8F; He might then tell one party about what the other is offering and vice versa.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:07 pm

seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Yes, really. No one seems to be surprised that STC is saying the same thing about 779, why should we not take AAB at his word? QR has a track record of not accepting aircraft that they are not satisfied with.


At least it shows that Airbus is also having quality control issues.


That's quite a leap... maybe customer service issues?? It's a serious issue... that he can't reveal... There is no basis for concluding it's a quality control issue big enough to halt 73 deliveries....

I guess we will know in time...
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:28 am

THere is an article about the "spat" yestarday.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-03/

THe title is "Qatar Airways says Airbus spat risks 'industrial repercussions'"

"This is not a paint issue," Al Baker said on Thursday.

As of the end of April, Qatar Airways had 73 planes on order from Airbus that had yet to be delivered, including 23 A350s.


Qatar ordered a lot of A321neo and A350.

None of the ordered 321neo has been delivered. So the spat is NOT on the A321neo.
All of the A350-900 ordered by Qatar have been delivered. So the remaining 23 A350 to deliver are A350-1000.

Considering the above orders and deliveries data from Airbus' O&D spreadsheet of end of April, we can conclude the issue is with the A350-1000.

Since the A350-900 and A350-1000 are in the same family but with different size and weight, the only significant difference is the thrust rating of the engines.

Should we conclude the issue is with the engines of the A350-1000? But if the issue is the engines then Qatar should have been mad with Rolls-Royce and not with Airbus.

So, we still do not know what exactly the issue is.
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snd2402
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:04 am

Newby..

Could it not be about this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456315&hilit=a350+cracks

Cracks discovered when a A350 when for a repaint in Shannon in Jan 2021. Airbus said superficial but took the aircraft to Toulouse for further checks… not been seen since that I can find which is almost 6 months.
 
xwb777
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:27 am

Qatar Airways denies the paint quality issues with Airbus. The airline didn’t disclose the issues with Airbus.

https://www.aerotime.aero/28078-qatar-a ... ium=social
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:03 pm

snd2402 and xwb777

It is not the paint job as I mentioned in the comment #54 just above your comments.
It cannot be the cracks either because the term 'industrial repercussions' was use by Qatar.

Obviously he knows what he was talking about, but he looks like to be bound by some obligation to not mention anything about the issue.

We know that he speaks up quite easily about issues, but this time it is as if he said, "I have an issue but I cannot tell anything about it. However the issue can have 'industrial repercussions'."

We still do not know what that issue is, but it is not as minor as paint job or cracks on the outer coating. These stuff can be fixed very easily.

The most intriguing part of the press article by Reuters is below
"(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," Al Baker told Reuters in an interview.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-03/
If Reuters reported his words accurately, then you can read again the highlighted part.

This really is a big mystery.
In any case he already said too much now.

What is it all about?
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:47 pm

Still, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be - 1000 specific, probably not safety related and, as Qatar is not the only operator, quite Qatar specific.
Personnaly I vote for suboptimal high temperature take off capabilities
My 2 cents
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:03 pm

Naincompetent wrote:
Still, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be - 1000 specific, probably not safety related and, as Qatar is not the only operator, quite Qatar specific.
Personnaly I vote for suboptimal high temperature take off capabilities
My 2 cents

I vote for QR cash conservation and a negotiation position on the possible (vs 777xF) freighter.

AAB has never been a friendly negotiator and while the freighter is another thread, I do not see this as a separate negotiation, but that is just my opinion.

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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:09 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Qatar Airways denies the paint quality issues with Airbus. The airline didn’t disclose the issues with Airbus.

https://www.aerotime.aero/28078-qatar-a ... ium=social

I think it's time for AAB to "put up of shut up"; his public rants are getting annoying.
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:24 am

Naincompetent wrote:
Still, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be - 1000 specific, probably not safety related and, as Qatar is not the only operator, quite Qatar specific.
Personnaly I vote for suboptimal high temperature take off capabilities
My 2 cents


Agréé on the point it has to be A350-1000 specific.

The most intriguing part of the Reuters article is the following.
"(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," Al Baker told Reuters in an interview.


If Reuters reported accurately AAB's words, it sounds like the issue is not specific to Qatar.

This is really intriguing since no one else is whining about the A350-1000 like he does.
 
Noshow
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:28 am

1. He is a big -as in huge- customer and has every right to criticise what he got delivered.
2. He sure has a history of making more complaints than others but this time he sounds sort of upset for some reason.
3. Wonder what is behind all that?
 
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enzo011
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:36 am

VV wrote:
Agréé on the point it has to be A350-1000 specific.

The most intriguing part of the Reuters article is the following.
"(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," Al Baker told Reuters in an interview.


If Reuters reported accurately AAB's words, it sounds like the issue is not specific to Qatar.

This is really intriguing since no one else is whining about the A350-1000 like he does.



Could be he doesn't have the cash to take planned aircraft now but Airbus is insisting he does. He is using the 777X freighter vs A350F order as bait to get what he wants from Airbus at this moment. It may not be a problem with aircraft but contractual.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:40 am

VV wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
Still, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be - 1000 specific, probably not safety related and, as Qatar is not the only operator, quite Qatar specific.
Personnaly I vote for suboptimal high temperature take off capabilities
My 2 cents


Agréé on the point it has to be A350-1000 specific.

The most intriguing part of the Reuters article is the following.
"(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," Al Baker told Reuters in an interview.


If Reuters reported accurately AAB's words, it sounds like the issue is not specific to Qatar.

This is really intriguing since no one else is whining about the A350-1000 like he does.


Probably missing performance targets on the -1000.
 
Noshow
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:00 am

Qatar just cannot be short on cash. They have natural gas like there is no tomorrow. It must be something more technical or contractual.
 
TC957
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:22 am

Maybe that self-styled " aviation analyst " Alex Macheras, who has been pally with AAB in the past, can get him to spill the beans a bit more.
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
VV wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
Still, as you mentioned earlier, it has to be - 1000 specific, probably not safety related and, as Qatar is not the only operator, quite Qatar specific.
Personnaly I vote for suboptimal high temperature take off capabilities
My 2 cents


Agréé on the point it has to be A350-1000 specific.

The most intriguing part of the Reuters article is the following.
"(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," Al Baker told Reuters in an interview.


If Reuters reported accurately AAB's words, it sounds like the issue is not specific to Qatar.

This is really intriguing since no one else is whining about the A350-1000 like he does.


Probably missing performance targets on the -1000.


I do not think so. If it was the case then we would have heard from other A350-1000 operators too.
In addition every one in airliners net seems to agree that the A350-1000 meets all the performance targets.

Or as mentioned by one comment above, it could be the take-off performance in hot conditions.
However, if it is the case the issue should have been raised in the beginning. After all the take-off performance is in the flight manual of the aircraft (the Performance part of the flight manual, usually in the form of a software and dataset).

In addition, usually performance shortfall is compensated by the remedies as function of the estimated profit reduction.

In this case, AAB mentioned a kind of industrial risk. Or perhaps he meant that if he cancels the remaining A350-1000 it would become an industrial issue for Airbus.

His statement was so vague that we cannot make any clear guess. This said, the way he said it sounds like the issue is relatively serious.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:32 pm

I have a recollection (cannot find the source) that a few years ago AAB said that 5 of QR's then to-be-delivered -1000s would be a new HGW version - maybe associated with the QF Sunrise development.

Perhaps have not delivered on that (yet)?
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:33 pm

Noshow wrote:
Qatar just cannot be short on cash. They have natural gas like there is no tomorrow. It must be something more technical or contractual.


You're confusing Qatar the country and Qatar the airline. Even if the airline is heavily govt subsidized (denied!) there has to be a transfer of cash or a credit facility.
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:10 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
I have a recollection (cannot find the source) that a few years ago AAB said that 5 of QR's then to-be-delivered -1000s would be a new HGW version - maybe associated with the QF Sunrise development.

Perhaps have not delivered on that (yet)?


Would that have any "industrial repercussions"? I do not think so.

What does AAB know that we do not know?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:22 pm

VV wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
I have a recollection (cannot find the source) that a few years ago AAB said that 5 of QR's then to-be-delivered -1000s would be a new HGW version - maybe associated with the QF Sunrise development.

Perhaps have not delivered on that (yet)?


Would that have any "industrial repercussions"? I do not think so.

What does AAB know that we do not know?


Maybe he is threatening to exclude the 3510 - based freighter proposal from competing against Boeing's proposed 778F for a 30x launch order?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:32 pm

VV wrote:
Or as mentioned by one comment above, it could be the take-off performance in hot conditions.
However, if it is the case the issue should have been raised in the beginning. After all the take-off performance is in the flight manual of the aircraft (the Performance part of the flight manual, usually in the form of a software and dataset).

In addition, usually performance shortfall is compensated by the remedies as function of the estimated profit reduction.

It seems to me this is the most likely true issue, same as it probably is/was for STC and EK on T900.

I doubt the remedies cover the entire impact to the airlines, i.e. the time to remove the engine, get it rebuilt, then re-installed while a spare is fitted.

It could very well be that the cost of providing the stated durability is more than just paying the penalties so that's what the vendor does, and this angers both STC and AAB.

In particular we know the TXWB-97 is mostly a throttle push of the TXWB-84, with some flow enhancement. Maybe it is not meeting durability targets?

VV wrote:
In this case, AAB mentioned a kind of industrial risk. Or perhaps he meant that if he cancels the remaining A350-1000 it would become an industrial issue for Airbus.

His statement was so vague that we cannot make any clear guess. This said, the way he said it sounds like the issue is relatively serious.

Or maybe he knows he has to escalate the verbiage to get attention after crying wolf so often.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Qatar just cannot be short on cash. They have natural gas like there is no tomorrow. It must be something more technical or contractual.


You're confusing Qatar the country and Qatar the airline. Even if the airline is heavily govt subsidized (denied!) there has to be a transfer of cash or a credit facility.

I don't think this is a problem. They already have gotten $3B for covid relief, if more is needed then it will happen. As far as the nation is concerned, QR is too big to fail.
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:02 pm

If AAB really said "Airbus needs to get real", could that point towards Airbus having him by the short and curlies, and he's wriggling like a caught fish trying to get out of the net?

It's anybodies guess what that is, but could be that QR are no longer (legally and contractually) able to defer deliveries and Airbus has asked them to come and collect their new aeroplanes and wire a gazillion dollars the other way.

QR is, when it comes to money, a funny bunch to work with. When it suits them, and it often does, staff at all levels from supervisor and up to the top will never hesitate to point out how rich they are, and how money's no object - they just want a given thing made and done a certain way. But when it doesn't suit them, and it doesn't with almost equal frequency, they're quick to point out they're running a company which must be commercially viable (it isn't; the only part of QR making money is their F&B division).

Anyways, that's my 2 Cent: Airbus want to deliver aircraft as per agreement, AAB doesn't want them because he has no need for them and the Sheikhs are getting worried about spending a couple gazillions. The threat of industrial repercussions might very well be directed at the possible competition between an A350F and 777XF purchase. And here AAB certainly has the upper hand; Airbus needs a big order to launch it, with the aim of supplanting the 777F as the premier long-haul package carrier, and Boeing desperately needs orders for the 777X.

Ah, well, it's all just a giant game of brinkmanship and commercial chess, pitting huge egos against each other.
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:23 pm

B777LRF wrote:
If AAB really said "Airbus needs to get real", could that point towards Airbus having him by the short and curlies, and he's wriggling like a caught fish trying to get out of the net?
...


That is exactly the most intriguing phrase in his statement.
What does it really mean? He said it as if Airbus was somehow delusional??? What the heck?
 
LDRA
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:47 pm

B777LRF wrote:
If AAB really said "Airbus needs to get real", could that point towards Airbus having him by the short and curlies, and he's wriggling like a caught fish trying to get out of the net?

It's anybodies guess what that is, but could be that QR are no longer (legally and contractually) able to defer deliveries and Airbus has asked them to come and collect their new aeroplanes and wire a gazillion dollars the other way.

QR is, when it comes to money, a funny bunch to work with. When it suits them, and it often does, staff at all levels from supervisor and up to the top will never hesitate to point out how rich they are, and how money's no object - they just want a given thing made and done a certain way. But when it doesn't suit them, and it doesn't with almost equal frequency, they're quick to point out they're running a company which must be commercially viable (it isn't; the only part of QR making money is their F&B division).

Anyways, that's my 2 Cent: Airbus want to deliver aircraft as per agreement, AAB doesn't want them because he has no need for them and the Sheikhs are getting worried about spending a couple gazillions. The threat of industrial repercussions might very well be directed at the possible competition between an A350F and 777XF purchase. And here AAB certainly has the upper hand; Airbus needs a big order to launch it, with the aim of supplanting the 777F as the premier long-haul package carrier, and Boeing desperately needs orders for the 777X.

Ah, well, it's all just a giant game of brinkmanship and commercial chess, pitting huge egos against each other.

Agreed. It's the 777XF launch order. How solvent is QR. If Airbus really were to press for immediate delivery, will QR survive?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:07 pm

LDRA wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
If AAB really said "Airbus needs to get real", could that point towards Airbus having him by the short and curlies, and he's wriggling like a caught fish trying to get out of the net?

It's anybodies guess what that is, but could be that QR are no longer (legally and contractually) able to defer deliveries and Airbus has asked them to come and collect their new aeroplanes and wire a gazillion dollars the other way.

QR is, when it comes to money, a funny bunch to work with. When it suits them, and it often does, staff at all levels from supervisor and up to the top will never hesitate to point out how rich they are, and how money's no object - they just want a given thing made and done a certain way. But when it doesn't suit them, and it doesn't with almost equal frequency, they're quick to point out they're running a company which must be commercially viable (it isn't; the only part of QR making money is their F&B division).

Anyways, that's my 2 Cent: Airbus want to deliver aircraft as per agreement, AAB doesn't want them because he has no need for them and the Sheikhs are getting worried about spending a couple gazillions. The threat of industrial repercussions might very well be directed at the possible competition between an A350F and 777XF purchase. And here AAB certainly has the upper hand; Airbus needs a big order to launch it, with the aim of supplanting the 777F as the premier long-haul package carrier, and Boeing desperately needs orders for the 777X.

Ah, well, it's all just a giant game of brinkmanship and commercial chess, pitting huge egos against each other.

Agreed. It's the 777XF launch order. How solvent is QR. If Airbus really were to press for immediate delivery, will QR survive?

Many of us are of the opinion QR is too big to fail for Qatar the nation.

AAB is being cute claiming defects, the harder Airbus pushes for delivery, the louder he will be. Just as the last downturn Airbus had carpet issues, now it is paint.

Until there is an international travel revival, these games will be played.

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2828
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:08 pm

LDRA wrote:
Agreed. It's the 777XF launch order. How solvent is QR. If Airbus really were to press for immediate delivery, will QR survive?


I'm not saying it is; like everyone here all I can present is a WAG based on a article of unknown accuracy, ascribed to a person with a penchant for flowery wording, innuendo and political mind games.

As for the financial viability of QR there is absolutely zero grounds for any kind of worry. The state of Qatar is sitting on the worlds largest deposit of natural gas, and QR is their pet project no. 1 and foremost vehicle of global marketing. And they are desperate to build and maintain their global image, if for no other reason than to support ego's big enough to fill a cathedral.
Signature. You just read one.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 1096
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:59 am

B777LRF wrote:
If AAB really said "Airbus needs to get real", could that point towards Airbus having him by the short and curlies, and he's wriggling like a caught fish trying to get out of the net?

It's anybodies guess what that is, but could be that QR are no longer (legally and contractually) able to defer deliveries and Airbus has asked them to come and collect their new aeroplanes and wire a gazillion dollars the other way.

QR is, when it comes to money, a funny bunch to work with. When it suits them, and it often does, staff at all levels from supervisor and up to the top will never hesitate to point out how rich they are, and how money's no object - they just want a given thing made and done a certain way. But when it doesn't suit them, and it doesn't with almost equal frequency, they're quick to point out they're running a company which must be commercially viable (it isn't; the only part of QR making money is their F&B division).

Anyways, that's my 2 Cent: Airbus want to deliver aircraft as per agreement, AAB doesn't want them because he has no need for them and the Sheikhs are getting worried about spending a couple gazillions. The threat of industrial repercussions might very well be directed at the possible competition between an A350F and 777XF purchase. And here AAB certainly has the upper hand; Airbus needs a big order to launch it, with the aim of supplanting the 777F as the premier long-haul package carrier, and Boeing desperately needs orders for the 777X.

Ah, well, it's all just a giant game of brinkmanship and commercial chess, pitting huge egos against each other.


I have met a lot of people who have done business in Abu Dabi, Qatar and Dubai, and in the end they all say the same: it is very tough to get paid for work done. I know of one large engineering consultancy firm (10,000+ employees globally) and in their monthly business review they review all projects with invoices more than 100 days overdue. The Middle East stands out with around 2 years from project delivery to getting paid on average. I know of one small company which had to put themselves on the market because of running out of money when it took more than a year to get paid for work done and delivered as per contract. I know small consultants who avoid doing business there because they can't afford to wait to get paid for months to years. Bills get paid in the end, but it takes a large amount of time and effort to get them paid. Getting orders is no use if you don't get paid on time.
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Pelly
Posts: 91
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
Just as the last downturn Airbus had carpet issues, now it is paint.

Until there is an international travel revival, these games will be played.

Lightsaber


The "carpet issues" were not carpet issues, please see earlier in the thread and it didn't happen during a downturn. It was the 2014/2015 financial year for QR where they had 40% growth in passenger numbers and a profitable year. I think both these points are important to point out related to this latest issue if people want to link the issue with the first couple of A380 delays to this one.
 
VV
Posts: 2254
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:30 am

Pelly wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Just as the last downturn Airbus had carpet issues, now it is paint.

Until there is an international travel revival, these games will be played.

Lightsaber


The "carpet issues" were not carpet issues, please see earlier in the thread and it didn't happen during a downturn. It was the 2014/2015 financial year for QR where they had 40% growth in passenger numbers and a profitable year. I think both these points are important to point out related to this latest issue if people want to link the issue with the first couple of A380 delays to this one.



Let us not forget Qatar was also one of the first customers of the A350 Mk1 (not XWB) that was then converted to the A350 XWB.
They also ordered the A380 that was delayed several years.

So Qatar is a very-very loyal Airbus customer and it is not going to change any time soon.

His latest statement about, "(Airbus) need to get real and they need to know that this problem will create industrial repercussions for them," has to be taken very seriously.

At this point, we do not know what it is all about. But if the "industrial repercussions" materialize then we will hear about it for sure.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 926
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:28 am

I tend to take the theory of 'A35K' has performance issue operating from ME region. There are only a handful airlines that operates A35K, that including BA, VS, CX, EY and Air Caraibes. Since EY put its A35K in storage most of the time, it is difficult to judge 'industrial repercussions' from other airlines. BA, VS and CX does not base their A35K in environments seen in Middle East, so no viable comparison can be made neither.

But judging from QR's A35K order book, I can't ignore the theory suggested by earlier posters that there could be performance issue and QR is trying to defer or even cancel the remaining A35K.

No doubt should the talks between QR and Airbus hit the wall, QR may eventually release some minor details.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1695
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:04 am

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Or as mentioned by one comment above, it could be the take-off performance in hot conditions.
However, if it is the case the issue should have been raised in the beginning. After all the take-off performance is in the flight manual of the aircraft (the Performance part of the flight manual, usually in the form of a software and dataset).

In addition, usually performance shortfall is compensated by the remedies as function of the estimated profit reduction.

It seems to me this is the most likely true issue, same as it probably is/was for STC and EK on T900.

I doubt the remedies cover the entire impact to the airlines, i.e. the time to remove the engine, get it rebuilt, then re-installed while a spare is fitted.

It could very well be that the cost of providing the stated durability is more than just paying the penalties so that's what the vendor does, and this angers both STC and AAB.

In particular we know the TXWB-97 is mostly a throttle push of the TXWB-84, with some flow enhancement. Maybe it is not meeting durability targets?

If it was engine-related, RR would have also featured.
 
VV
Posts: 2254
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:19 am

smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
...
It could very well be that the cost of providing the stated durability is more than just paying the penalties so that's what the vendor does, and this angers both STC and AAB.

In particular we know the TXWB-97 is mostly a throttle push of the TXWB-84, with some flow enhancement. Maybe it is not meeting durability targets?

If it was engine-related, RR would have also featured.


That's the thing.
Qatar did not say anything about the engine manufacturer.

As I previously said, the A350-1000's airframe is quite similar to the A350-900. So there should not be any issue with the aerodynamics or structure or avionics.

If the engine was somehow related to the mysterious issue then it should have been mentioned.

This mystery is very very strange.
 
Nnaeto87
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:18 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:26 pm

Something to point out:

1. Akbar has complained about the the performance of the 350-1000 with respect to Rolls before:

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

t’s not just single-aisle production that is causing a worldwide hold-up. Sitting down with Aviation Analyst in Malaysia, Al Baker slammed A350 XWB engine supplier Rolls-Royce over poor performance. He said “We are very disappointed in Rolls-Royce. They are failing — failing to meet performance, failing to meet the timeline, failing to give us the comfort we require on the reliability of their engines, and so we are very disappointed with Rolls Royce. This is in specific reference to the A350″

Al Baker added “The performance of the engines in service is not what we expected. The turnaround of the overhauls of our engines is not happening”

Now he may just be using that now as a way to get at Airbus to bend to his demands. It’s Airbus that we know he will want to break from not really RR. Is there much they can do for him?

Secondly. Because RR isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean the engines are not a focal point of the discussion.

Look no further than STC and 777X performance. All you hear is threats going in Boeing’s direction meanwhile the basis of the discussion is actually the engine.

Now the 350-1000 is probably burning fuel very very efficiently for Akbar that may actually be enough to relax the noise on the durability and all that kind of stuff.

But when Airbus wants to deliver and you’re in an economic crisis. Well it helps to have something reasonable to complain about.

I may very well be wrong. But that’s just another way to look at it
 
Noshow
Posts: 2489
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:06 pm

These ME3 guys just need the maximum performance like nobody else does. Super hot climate and longer distances to the US compared to Asia and Europe leading to maxed out takeoff mass and engines used at the highest ratings and maximum thrust.
No surprise they experience any teething troubles and performance shortfalls (if they should exist) first hand.
 
VV
Posts: 2254
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:31 pm

Nnaeto87 wrote:
Something to point out:

1. Akbar has complained about the the performance of the 350-1000 with respect to Rolls before:

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

t’s not just single-aisle production that is causing a worldwide hold-up. Sitting down with Aviation Analyst in Malaysia, Al Baker slammed A350 XWB engine supplier Rolls-Royce over poor performance. He said “We are very disappointed in Rolls-Royce. They are failing — failing to meet performance, failing to meet the timeline, failing to give us the comfort we require on the reliability of their engines, and so we are very disappointed with Rolls Royce. This is in specific reference to the A350″

Al Baker added “The performance of the engines in service is not what we expected. The turnaround of the overhauls of our engines is not happening”

Now he may just be using that now as a way to get at Airbus to bend to his demands. It’s Airbus that we know he will want to break from not really RR. Is there much they can do for him?

Secondly. Because RR isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean the engines are not a focal point of the discussion.

Look no further than STC and 777X performance. All you hear is threats going in Boeing’s direction meanwhile the basis of the discussion is actually the engine.

Now the 350-1000 is probably burning fuel very very efficiently for Akbar that may actually be enough to relax the noise on the durability and all that kind of stuff.

But when Airbus wants to deliver and you’re in an economic crisis. Well it helps to have something reasonable to complain about.

I may very well be wrong. But that’s just another way to look at it



QUOTE
Al Baker added “The performance of the engines in service is not what we expected. The turnaround of the overhauls of our engines is not happening”
...
While Al Baker agreed with me that the dispatch reliability for the A350 remains high, “it’s only ever brought down by part-supply chain, and part-Rolls-Royce” Al Baker explained.
UNQUOTE

Okay, so it seems it is not about the field performance or en-route performance but about the durability of the engine or part issues.

However, the overhaul of the engine could be compensated by some commercial concessions from overhaul cost or even compensation of the extra cost on having the aircraft down.

It still does not explain the "industrial repercussions" mentioned by Qatar or the "get real" part.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:34 pm

VV wrote:
Nnaeto87 wrote:
Something to point out:

1. Akbar has complained about the the performance of the 350-1000 with respect to Rolls before:

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

t’s not just single-aisle production that is causing a worldwide hold-up. Sitting down with Aviation Analyst in Malaysia, Al Baker slammed A350 XWB engine supplier Rolls-Royce over poor performance. He said “We are very disappointed in Rolls-Royce. They are failing — failing to meet performance, failing to meet the timeline, failing to give us the comfort we require on the reliability of their engines, and so we are very disappointed with Rolls Royce. This is in specific reference to the A350″

Al Baker added “The performance of the engines in service is not what we expected. The turnaround of the overhauls of our engines is not happening”

Now he may just be using that now as a way to get at Airbus to bend to his demands. It’s Airbus that we know he will want to break from not really RR. Is there much they can do for him?

Secondly. Because RR isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean the engines are not a focal point of the discussion.

Look no further than STC and 777X performance. All you hear is threats going in Boeing’s direction meanwhile the basis of the discussion is actually the engine.

Now the 350-1000 is probably burning fuel very very efficiently for Akbar that may actually be enough to relax the noise on the durability and all that kind of stuff.

But when Airbus wants to deliver and you’re in an economic crisis. Well it helps to have something reasonable to complain about.

I may very well be wrong. But that’s just another way to look at it



QUOTE
Al Baker added “The performance of the engines in service is not what we expected. The turnaround of the overhauls of our engines is not happening”
...
While Al Baker agreed with me that the dispatch reliability for the A350 remains high, “it’s only ever brought down by part-supply chain, and part-Rolls-Royce” Al Baker explained.
UNQUOTE

Okay, so it seems it is not about the field performance or en-route performance but about the durability of the engine or part issues.

However, the overhaul of the engine could be compensated by some commercial concessions from overhaul cost or even compensation of the extra cost on having the aircraft down.

It still does not explain the "industrial repercussions" mentioned by Qatar or the "get real" part.

Perhaps wants an EK-style deal with parts and complete engines in EK managed warehouse in Dubai, owned by RR (and Airbus), invoiced only when issued. EK presumably want / expect this to extend to the A35 and A330NEO parts. But then would have the same issues with all the A35 model range.

The bar is set high, and correctly so by QR (many now follow, though the cynics amongst us would say that's more to do with delaying the 2nd to last milestone payment). So high they required mules to be used for RTO on new builds.
 
VV
Posts: 2254
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:44 am

smartplane wrote:
....
Perhaps wants an EK-style deal with parts and complete engines in EK managed warehouse in Dubai, owned by RR (and Airbus), invoiced only when issued. EK presumably want / expect this to extend to the A35 and A330NEO parts. But then would have the same issues with all the A35 model range.

The bar is set high, and correctly so by QR (many now follow, though the cynics amongst us would say that's more to do with delaying the 2nd to last milestone payment). So high they required mules to be used for RTO on new builds.


Well we can speculate about his comment for long time.

I think at this stage we can only wait for further statement or hints from other parties about the "issue".
It is not very useful to continue writing comments on this topic for now.

If the "issue" does have "industrial repercussions" as he said, I sincerely believe we will learn about it soon.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 2027
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:50 am

B777LRF wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Agreed. It's the 777XF launch order. How solvent is QR. If Airbus really were to press for immediate delivery, will QR survive?


I'm not saying it is; like everyone here all I can present is a WAG based on a article of unknown accuracy, ascribed to a person with a penchant for flowery wording, innuendo and political mind games.

As for the financial viability of QR there is absolutely zero grounds for any kind of worry. The state of Qatar is sitting on the worlds largest deposit of natural gas, and QR is their pet project no. 1 and foremost vehicle of global marketing. And they are desperate to build and maintain their global image, if for no other reason than to support ego's big enough to fill a cathedral.



Nice to know it's the cathedral that wins out in the end against the dreaded P+L statement :D :D ...so finally, QR is in fact all about enhancing the spirituality in travel...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
Opus99
Posts: 2217
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:56 am

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

It actually wasn't paint. Apparently the surface under the paint is degrading faster than expected?

which is why he said it would lead to industrial problems

But the surface under the paint, is that not the fuselage? Anyway, those with better knowledge can maybe give us more light on what this means
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10816
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:16 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I tend to take the theory of 'A35K' has performance issue operating from ME region. There are only a handful airlines that operates A35K, that including BA, VS, CX, EY and Air Caraibes. Since EY put its A35K in storage most of the time, it is difficult to judge 'industrial repercussions' from other airlines. BA, VS and CX does not base their A35K in environments seen in Middle East, so no viable comparison can be made neither.

But judging from QR's A35K order book, I can't ignore the theory suggested by earlier posters that there could be performance issue and QR is trying to defer or even cancel the remaining A35K.

No doubt should the talks between QR and Airbus hit the wall, QR may eventually release some minor details.

Not sure I follow this trend of thought, performance specifications are built into a/c, validated during initial testing prior to EIS and are sold to clients with certain guarantees, when a/c do not meet specification it is a contractual issue, has Airbus now adjusted contracts that such failures are now regarded as "state secrets" that no one can divulge or even speculate about, a black hole of silence, the client is even prevented from saying the type of issue, we know and accept that confidentiality surrounds compensation, but cause?

We have A350 pilots on this site who provide actual information on the performance of the A350, we know that the 1000 is a derivative of the 900, so how much worse can it be?
Perhaps it may be more helpful to look at all Airbus products being used by this operator as a whole versus a single type, I think we can safely speculate that the "industrial strength" of Airbus does not revolve around the A350-1000.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2217
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:19 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-halts-a350-deliveries-after-jet-surface-problem-2021-06-08/

It actually wasn't paint. Apparently the surface under the paint is degrading faster than expected?

which is why he said it would lead to industrial problems

But the surface under the paint, is that not the fuselage? Anyway, those with better knowledge can maybe give us more light on what this means


QR is also saying they have grounded some 350s till the root cause can be determined
 
Pelly
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:20 pm

Quote from the Reuters article:

"Qatar Airways continues to experience and has witnessed a condition in which the surface below the paint on some of its Airbus A350 aircraft has been degrading at an accelerated rate," an airline spokesperson said in response to a Reuters query.

The airline has grounded some jets "until the condition and root cause can be understood and corrected," the spokesperson said, without disclosing how many aircraft were affected.

"Qatar Airways will require this condition and its underlying root cause to be fully understood and corrected before the delivery of any further Airbus A350 aircraft.”

Qatar Airways also said it was inspecting its entire A350 fleet more frequently to closely observe the condition.


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/
 
Opus99
Posts: 2217
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:24 pm

Does this degradation actually cause any problems though? I've read before that it is cosmetic
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