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macsog6
Posts: 254
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:28 pm

Carriers complaining about aircraft quality is as old as the industry. I recall that back in 1987, JAL complained quite a bit about Boeing quality and I recall other incidents going back to the 1960's. The carrier is the customer of the air-framer and customers often complain, just as customers of the carrier, commonly know as pax, often complain as well. This is no big deal, just a news agency trying to sell more advertising.
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
smartplane
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:11 pm

par13del wrote:
Not sure I follow this trend of thought, performance specifications are built into a/c, validated during initial testing prior to EIS and are sold to clients with certain guarantees, when a/c do not meet specification it is a contractual issue, has Airbus now adjusted contracts that such failures are now regarded as "state secrets" that no one can divulge or even speculate about, a black hole of silence, the client is even prevented from saying the type of issue, we know and accept that confidentiality surrounds compensation, but cause?

Confidentiality clauses are included in all commercial aircraft sale / purchase agreements. Repeatedly strengthened in the last decade. Contracts include arbitration - failure to follow triggers compensation discounting clauses. Confidentiality clauses are added and / or reinforced when specific issues arise. Breach of confidentiality triggers compensation discounting clauses.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:26 pm

The big question is whether this is down to a bad batch of gelcoat, or incorrect application, or the climate in Doha, or a more systemic issue which could require gelcoat re-formulation and re-painting of all delivered frames. Clues will come from the number of affected frames and whether there are linkages between them, such as production batches.
 
xwb777
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:34 pm

I have received this photo of a Qatar Airways A350 tail. If you zoom in, you can see that their are some markings.
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:18 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
The big question is whether this is down to a bad batch of gelcoat, or incorrect application, or the climate in Doha, or a more systemic issue which could require gelcoat re-formulation and re-painting of all delivered frames. Clues will come from the number of affected frames and whether there are linkages between them, such as production batches.


Yep. I agree with your statement on the nature of the issue.
Does it concern only one batch of production or is it a systemic issue.

Airbus is probably working hard to find out all the required answers.

This said, if the issue is due to the manufacturing process standard or the chemical composition standard then it can be quite annoying.
Perhaps that's what Al Baker meant by "industrial repercussions".
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:47 pm

G'day

I take this as a convenient "excuse" to postpone delivery of aircraft committed to but not currently desired with the ongoing travel restrictions. Qatar also may feel this will get them a better deal on the A 350 Freighter. So much for a good customer and supplier relationship. I guess at the end of the day common sense will prevail with both parties claiming a mutual agreement has been reached with X orders being announced. So much for politics. Had there been any safety issues with whatever Qatar claim to be a problem the relevant authorities would have issued a relevant notice, which they have not.

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
oldJoe
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:05 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

I take this as a convenient "excuse" to postpone delivery of aircraft committed to but not currently desired with the ongoing travel restrictions. Qatar also may feel this will get them a better deal on the A 350 Freighter. So much for a good customer and supplier relationship. I guess at the end of the day common sense will prevail with both parties claiming a mutual agreement has been reached with X orders being announced. So much for politics. Had there been any safety issues with whatever Qatar claim to be a problem the relevant authorities would have issued a relevant notice, which they have not.

Cheers

Peter


Good question. Given that the uncompromising EASA has not made a comment to this day, I consider the whole discussion to be questionable
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:28 am

My guess is, they found other issues on the frame that Qatar sent back to TLS for investigation and repairs that were not related to the previous ground incident occurred to the frame. That frame had its paint stripped, that would have allowed the problem to be known.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:10 am

We'll never know but it sure would interesting to find out which customers costs A & B the most to deal with. Have to wonder if those huge orders are worth it when they come with warranty claims that have to be investigated, delayed payments & negative publicity. If you're giving them a huge discount because of volume & then have a bunch of extra costs to deal with it has to affect the bottom line. In the end I guess both A & B have decided it's worth it though.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:57 am

The A350-1041 involved is A7-ALL, a 4.8 years old bird.

It was ferried to Shannon on 13th November 2020 with another QR B77W A7-BEB to be repainted in World Cup Livery. It was during the paint stripping when cracks found in the composite fuselage. A temporary fix was put in place and was flown to TLS on 5th January 2021 for further fix and has been there since.

Image

https://www.facebook.com/AeronewsGlobal ... 783144497/
https://flyinginireland.com/2021/01/irr ... n-shannon/

The issue was covered in previous thread five months ago. Updated: QR finds surface coating cracks in early build A350 (not structural)
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:35 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
My guess is, they found other issues on the frame that Qatar sent back to TLS for investigation and repairs that were not related to the previous ground incident occurred to the frame. That frame had its paint stripped, that would have allowed the problem to be known.



There is not any airworthiness directive on the subject. Hence we have to conclude there is not any safety issue related to the "problem".

The intriguing part is the the fact Qatar is so vocal about it.
Wouldn't the impact of the issue is economical, that is the cost of removing the coating and then apply another one before painting?

It is understandable the correction takes time and costly, but it is not a disaster, in my opinion.

So why all the fuss on this? Airbus can afford doing the repair and compensate the cost.
 
Opus99
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:43 am

VV wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
My guess is, they found other issues on the frame that Qatar sent back to TLS for investigation and repairs that were not related to the previous ground incident occurred to the frame. That frame had its paint stripped, that would have allowed the problem to be known.



There is not any airworthiness directive on the subject. Hence we have to conclude there is not any safety issue related to the "problem".

The intriguing part is the the fact Qatar is so vocal about it.
Wouldn't the impact of the issue is economical, that is the cost of removing the coating and then apply another one before painting?

It is understandable the correction takes time and costly, but it is not a disaster, in my opinion.

So why all the fuss on this? Airbus can afford doing the repair and compensate the cost.

But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:53 am

Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
My guess is, they found other issues on the frame that Qatar sent back to TLS for investigation and repairs that were not related to the previous ground incident occurred to the frame. That frame had its paint stripped, that would have allowed the problem to be known.



There is not any airworthiness directive on the subject. Hence we have to conclude there is not any safety issue related to the "problem".

The intriguing part is the the fact Qatar is so vocal about it.
Wouldn't the impact of the issue is economical, that is the cost of removing the coating and then apply another one before painting?

It is understandable the correction takes time and costly, but it is not a disaster, in my opinion.

So why all the fuss on this? Airbus can afford doing the repair and compensate the cost.

But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries


Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 191
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:57 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
The A350-1041 involved is A7-ALL, a 4.8 years old bird.

It was ferried to Shannon on 13th November 2020 with another QR B77W A7-BEB to be repainted in World Cup Livery. It was during the paint stripping when cracks found in the composite fuselage. A temporary fix was put in place and was flown to TLS on 5th January 2021 for further fix and has been there since.

Image

https://www.facebook.com/AeronewsGlobal ... 783144497/
https://flyinginireland.com/2021/01/irr ... n-shannon/

The issue was covered in previous thread five months ago. Updated: QR finds surface coating cracks in early build A350 (not structural)


That A7-ALL pictured is an A359...
 
Opus99
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:57 am

VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:


There is not any airworthiness directive on the subject. Hence we have to conclude there is not any safety issue related to the "problem".

The intriguing part is the the fact Qatar is so vocal about it.
Wouldn't the impact of the issue is economical, that is the cost of removing the coating and then apply another one before painting?

It is understandable the correction takes time and costly, but it is not a disaster, in my opinion.

So why all the fuss on this? Airbus can afford doing the repair and compensate the cost.

But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries


Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.

How badly does Airbus want it then? If he’s coming out to complain then clearly not enough and it seems like they want it a lot
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 am

Opus99 wrote:
VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries


Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.

How badly does Airbus want it then? If he’s coming out to complain then clearly not enough and it seems like they want it a lot


Did he really mean what he said?
Qatar still has a lot of overcapacity as demonstrated by the number of parked aircraft in their fleet.
Do they really want to spend money on extra capacity by taking delivery of not needed A350-1000?

I noticed a hell lot of small state airlines (Emirates, SIA, Qatar, Etihad etc.) still have a lot of parked aircraft in June 2021.
 
Noshow
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:58 am

If they need to really talk they wouldn't do it in public. I still don't get if this is just an overblown copy paste newsbit grown into something else in the process?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:05 am

VV wrote:
Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.


It is clever and a win-win. I think Airbus would jump to accept such a proposal.
 
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Polot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:12 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.


It is clever and a win-win. I think Airbus would jump to accept such a proposal.

I don’t think Airbus would jump to accept that proposal. They would rather QR take both and would prefer that launch orders for their new variant not be conversions from existing passenger A350 orders. Far more likely that they would accept deferring QR’s A350-1000s if QR also orders A350Fs. Less money now, more money later.

This is especially true because QR is pitching 77XF and A350F against each other. It’s not A350F vs A350-1000 or A350F vs no new planes. Sacrificing A350-1000 orders for F opens up possibility of greater role of 779 in QR’s fleet.
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:00 pm

Polot wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
Or perhaps Qatar wants to convert all the remaining A350-1000 in the order book to A350F.
It allows them to delay spending capital, since the A350F will enter into service in several years from now.

It is a clever way to delay orders and save money.


It is clever and a win-win. I think Airbus would jump to accept such a proposal.

I don’t think Airbus would jump to accept that proposal. They would rather QR take both and would prefer that launch orders for their new variant not be conversions from existing passenger A350 orders. Far more likely that they would accept deferring QR’s A350-1000s if QR also orders A350Fs. Less money now, more money later.

This is especially true because QR is pitching 77XF and A350F against each other. It’s not A350F vs A350-1000 or A350F vs no new planes. Sacrificing A350-1000 orders for F opens up possibility of greater role of 779 in QR’s fleet.


Doesn't the fact Qatar is putting 777-8F vs A350F make it even more interesting to propose a conversion from A350-1000 to A350F?

If the airline accept then it somehow blocks the 777-8F to Qatar's fleet.
In addition if the A350-1000 is as good as some people here say then Qatar should be very-very happy to make top on order in the future.

Maybe they do not need the capacity of the 777-9 so quickly. I do not know much about Qatar.
 
Opus99
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:07 pm

VV wrote:
Polot wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:

It is clever and a win-win. I think Airbus would jump to accept such a proposal.

I don’t think Airbus would jump to accept that proposal. They would rather QR take both and would prefer that launch orders for their new variant not be conversions from existing passenger A350 orders. Far more likely that they would accept deferring QR’s A350-1000s if QR also orders A350Fs. Less money now, more money later.

This is especially true because QR is pitching 77XF and A350F against each other. It’s not A350F vs A350-1000 or A350F vs no new planes. Sacrificing A350-1000 orders for F opens up possibility of greater role of 779 in QR’s fleet.


Doesn't the fact Qatar is putting 777-8F vs A350F make it even more interesting to propose a conversion from A350-1000 to A350F?

If the airline accept then it somehow blocks the 777-8F to Qatar's fleet.
In addition if the A350-1000 is as good as some people here say then Qatar should be very-very happy to make top on order in the future.

Maybe they do not need the capacity of the 777-9 so quickly. I do not know much about Qatar.

Honestly they don’t need more capacity for anything. Their 1000s are for growth. Their 777X for replacement. I never really understood why both when they’re going to have similar configs but.

IF I were QR I would make that switch. To 350F from 35K simply because what more growth can you actually get out of another 29 frames. In addition to the 777Xs you have to replace your 777s.

The 1000 works very well for them on long range. Especially to the US and Australia. It’s not used much in Europe. The 77W is more present in Europe and Asia.

So the question is what more can they do with those 29 frames? For Akbar those 29 frames can be more useful as freighters
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:14 pm

VV wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
My guess is, they found other issues on the frame that Qatar sent back to TLS for investigation and repairs that were not related to the previous ground incident occurred to the frame. That frame had its paint stripped, that would have allowed the problem to be known.



There is not any airworthiness directive on the subject. Hence we have to conclude there is not any safety issue related to the "problem".

The intriguing part is the the fact Qatar is so vocal about it.
Wouldn't the impact of the issue is economical, that is the cost of removing the coating and then apply another one before painting?

It is understandable the correction takes time and costly, but it is not a disaster, in my opinion.

So why all the fuss on this? Airbus can afford doing the repair and compensate the cost.


I’ll fathom a guess as to why it is turning into a disaster. Airplanes usually come with a 4 year warranty. If there is significant damage under the paint that won’t be found until after warranty expires, it can turn into a challenging negotiation. Airbus can say “no thanks it’s your problem” since warranty terms expired. The airline can say it’s a design/build defect that was there all along and it turns into a battle between the contracts/legal teams. Multi-million dollar payments outside of warranty require the highest levels of approvals. Airbus isn’t flush with cash, so those internal reviews to get the terms negotiated take time. Airbus has been pretty forceful during COVID to leverage contracts to force airlines to take deliveries, which has helped Airbus’ bottom line, but may have soured the relationship with the contracts teams at the airlines. Airbus leaders may have said no or offered something prorated. Then Qatar will turn around and use new deliveries as leverage, which is a negotiating tactic that many airlines use. If it took 20 years for the damage to appear, then it would be simple. Airplanes that are 5 years old should not require multimillion dollar heavy maintenance
 
Pelly
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:25 pm

Reuters have updated their article with information from unnamed sources so I wouldn't put much credence on it until there is more information released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

While the jet [A7-ALL] ... ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said.

Composite jets like the A350 have a layer of conductive metal mesh below the paint to protect against lightning damage. When the paint is ground or sanded away, the mesh can be accidentally damaged causing costly repairs, said Massachusetts-based airplane lightning-protection consultant Allen Hall.

"It gets costly fast: you can be talking millions," he said.


In the same article we have a QR statement claiming that the issue was found on "some" jets, meaning more than one. Perhaps QR is concerned that the issue is not due to the painting stripping and that this issue will become more prevalent with time and could become very costly. Perhaps the dispute with Airbus is on whether the issue is one off and caused by the painting contractor or a more systemic issue. Perhaps QR is asking the same questions we are asking, is this due to a bad batch of materials? is this due to some quality issues during manufacturing? if this is due to paint stripping, will this be an issue when more aircraft need repaints? Perhaps the best leverage QR has to resolve this issue is to refuse further deliveries until they get answers. Notice I am prefacing all the sentences with the word perhaps.

With QR being the first A350 operator, probably the first to repaint an aA350 after 4 years of service, one of the largest operators of the A350, with very high utilization rates in terms of cycles and hours and operating in a harsh climate it makes sense if something like this happens they would be one of the first to discover it.

Noshow wrote:
If they need to really talk they wouldn't do it in public. I still don't get if this is just an overblown copy paste newsbit grown into something else in the process?


The jet has been at Toulouse since Jan 2021, QR only publicly commented on in May 2021. They must have been talking in private for a few months before the issues became public.

Opus99 wrote:
But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries


Most deliveries were postponed but some were still due to happen in 2021. QR took delivery of 3 A350-1000 late last year too.

VV wrote:
Qatar still has a lot of overcapacity as demonstrated by the number of parked aircraft in their fleet.
Do they really want to spend money on extra capacity by taking delivery of not needed A350-1000?

I noticed a hell lot of small state airlines (Emirates, SIA, Qatar, Etihad etc.) still have a lot of parked aircraft in June 2021.


Most of the 777/A350/787 are flying, compared to EK and SQ more jets are in the air. The A320 fleet has lesser utilization. The A330 (which are leaving the fleet anyways) and A380 fleets are the ones grounded. The older 777 are due to start leaving the fleet, since almost the whole 777 fleet is flying these older jets will need to be replaced as they leave the fleet and the 777X is still more than a couple of yeas away. There is room for more A350s to enter the fleet, QR accepted 3 A350-1000 late last year when much more of the fleet was grounded. I am not saying they don't have over capacity but the situation is not as dire as it might appear, especially that QR is doing very well with cargo. See the WSJ article below:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-qatar- ... 1619348400

In the past 12 months, Qatar has flown more seats further than any other airline on cross-border routes, according to data firm OAG. In the week starting Monday, the carrier is scheduled to fly more than twice the international capacity of Air France , over two-thirds more than Delta Air Lines Inc. and over 13% more than Emirates. Across both domestic and long-haul travel, American Airlines Group Inc. remains the world’s largest flier.
 
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zeke
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:00 pm

Pelly wrote:
In the same article we have a QR statement claiming that the issue was found on "some" jets, meaning more than one. Perhaps QR is concerned that the issue is not due to the painting stripping and that this issue will become more prevalent with time and could become very costly. Perhaps the dispute with Airbus is on whether the issue is one off and caused by the painting contractor or a more systemic issue. Perhaps QR is asking the same questions we are asking, is this due to a bad batch of materials? is this due to some quality issues during manufacturing? if this is due to paint stripping, will this be an issue when more aircraft need repaints? Perhaps the best leverage QR has to resolve this issue is to refuse further deliveries until they get answers. Notice I am prefacing all the sentences with the word perhaps.


The photo of the rudder on the previous page is marked out like I have seen our engineers do when lightning strikes occur. Lightning can cause burn marks where it enters and exits the aircraft. There are specific inspection and repair procedures for that in the maintenance manuals.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:42 pm

Pelly wrote:
Reuters have updated their article with information from unnamed sources so I wouldn't put much credence on it until there is more information released.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

While the jet [A7-ALL] ... ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said.

Composite jets like the A350 have a layer of conductive metal mesh below the paint to protect against lightning damage. When the paint is ground or sanded away, the mesh can be accidentally damaged causing costly repairs, said Massachusetts-based airplane lightning-protection consultant Allen Hall.

"It gets costly fast: you can be talking millions," he said.


In the same article we have a QR statement claiming that the issue was found on "some" jets, meaning more than one. Perhaps QR is concerned that the issue is not due to the painting stripping and that this issue will become more prevalent with time and could become very costly. Perhaps the dispute with Airbus is on whether the issue is one off and caused by the painting contractor or a more systemic issue. Perhaps QR is asking the same questions we are asking, is this due to a bad batch of materials? is this due to some quality issues during manufacturing? if this is due to paint stripping, will this be an issue when more aircraft need repaints? Perhaps the best leverage QR has to resolve this issue is to refuse further deliveries until they get answers. Notice I am prefacing all the sentences with the word perhaps.

With QR being the first A350 operator, probably the first to repaint an aA350 after 4 years of service, one of the largest operators of the A350, with very high utilization rates in terms of cycles and hours and operating in a harsh climate it makes sense if something like this happens they would be one of the first to discover it.

Noshow wrote:
If they need to really talk they wouldn't do it in public. I still don't get if this is just an overblown copy paste newsbit grown into something else in the process?


The jet has been at Toulouse since Jan 2021, QR only publicly commented on in May 2021. They must have been talking in private for a few months before the issues became public.

Opus99 wrote:
But what confuses is me is. Some say okay he doesn’t want to take delivery of the jets. But he also said he had agreed with Airbus on a delay earlier in the pandemic and that he won’t be taking any jets until 2022. Same thing he agreed with Boeing. So why is Airbus trying to force him to take it. I have no doubt he will eventually. Since he said 2022. They should be careful because you want the man to buy freighters and you want to force deliveries


Most deliveries were postponed but some were still due to happen in 2021. QR took delivery of 3 A350-1000 late last year too.

VV wrote:
Qatar still has a lot of overcapacity as demonstrated by the number of parked aircraft in their fleet.
Do they really want to spend money on extra capacity by taking delivery of not needed A350-1000?

I noticed a hell lot of small state airlines (Emirates, SIA, Qatar, Etihad etc.) still have a lot of parked aircraft in June 2021.


Most of the 777/A350/787 are flying, compared to EK and SQ more jets are in the air. The A320 fleet has lesser utilization. The A330 (which are leaving the fleet anyways) and A380 fleets are the ones grounded. The older 777 are due to start leaving the fleet, since almost the whole 777 fleet is flying these older jets will need to be replaced as they leave the fleet and the 777X is still more than a couple of yeas away. There is room for more A350s to enter the fleet, QR accepted 3 A350-1000 late last year when much more of the fleet was grounded. I am not saying they don't have over capacity but the situation is not as dire as it might appear, especially that QR is doing very well with cargo. See the WSJ article below:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-qatar- ... 1619348400

In the past 12 months, Qatar has flown more seats further than any other airline on cross-border routes, according to data firm OAG. In the week starting Monday, the carrier is scheduled to fly more than twice the international capacity of Air France , over two-thirds more than Delta Air Lines Inc. and over 13% more than Emirates. Across both domestic and long-haul travel, American Airlines Group Inc. remains the world’s largest flier.

This article seems to corroborate my experience with gelcoat in the glider (sailplane) community.

If the gelcoat breaks down the fiber underneath deteriorates fairly quickly, and it's very difficult/costly to get a repair. The whole idea of using fiber is to use as little of it as possible to save weight, so once the fibers deteriorate you are looking at a patch repair, and these are very difficult to get right since the original was made in a mold under pressure or vaccuum. It's hard to get the original shape in general, and without upsetting weight/balance more than desirable in particular.

We've all seen how even having a few millimeters of crud on an airliner wing can cause big issues with performance, right? Getting things back to the original shape is important. Yes, we have seen patches riveted onto aluminum aircraft before, but it's different with fiber. The repairs I saw used patches bonded (glued) into place, but that raises issues with potential loss of strength.

In the glider community they almost never paint over the gelcoat. This is why most modern gliders end up in a hangar or in their trailer after use. Other than that, though, if the paint issue is letting UV and/or water in, I think the issues would be similar, and this article seems to confirm that. An airliner is getting a lot more flight hours/cycles than a glider does, so it is exposed to the conditions a lot more. The high speed of the airliner presumably accelerates the degradation process.

I've seen more than a few gliders fail to sell because the gelcoat was breaking down which is something most buyers will reject immediately. It's not that strange to me that AAB is putting up a fuss about this.
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:32 pm

I noted the following from the Reuters report.
While the jet had been expected to go to Satys, which is repainting other jets for the 2022 tournament, it ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said.


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

Holy cow!
That will require a very exênsive repair.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:57 pm

I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

None of us know what is truly going on, but a common denominator with AAB and STC is that they are both in the process of accepting a large number of widebody aircraft costing billions, when a significant part of their fleets are parked in the desert due to sharp Covid related declines in business travel. Hmmmm.....I wonder if there is any connection?
Last edited by ElroyJetson on Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:14 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

I agree that AAB is using this to help get wanted deferments, but the fact that QR encountered this first (and might be the only airline to have encountered it so far) is not super surprising. It sounds like nobody disputes there is some issue with at least one jet, it’s about whose fault it is and thus who pays.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm

VV wrote:
I noted the following from the Reuters report.
While the jet had been expected to go to Satys, which is repainting other jets for the 2022 tournament, it ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said.


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

Holy cow!
That will require a very exênsive repair.



Will you finally drop your nonsense about QR just wanting to save money and delay deliveries? You kept touting that, with absolutely no basis and it's looking like there IS a significant issue. The prudent and adult thing to do is to wait for facts before making baseless claims, repeatedly.

Let's make this a quality forum.
Whatever
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:01 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

None of us know what is truly going on, but a common denominator with AAB and STC is that they are both in the process of accepting a large number of widebody aircraft costing billions, when a significant part of their fleets are parked in the desert due to sharp Covid related declines in business travel. Hmmmm.....I wonder if there is any connection?


Didn't they refuse delivery of their 757s due to the curtains being installed in a wave fold not a pleat fold?
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:48 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
VV wrote:
I noted the following from the Reuters report.
While the jet had been expected to go to Satys, which is repainting other jets for the 2022 tournament, it ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said.


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/

Holy cow!
That will require a very exênsive repair.



Will you finally drop your nonsense about QR just wanting to save money and delay deliveries? You kept touting that, with absolutely no basis and it's looking like there IS a significant issue. The prudent and adult thing to do is to wait for facts before making baseless claims, repeatedly.

Let's make this a quality forum.


It seems Al Baker thinks there is one.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:04 pm

Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

I agree that AAB is using this to help get wanted deferments, but the fact that QR encountered this first (and might be the only airline to have encountered it so far) is not super surprising. It sounds like nobody disputes there is some issue with at least one jet, it’s about whose fault it is and thus who pays.


You could be right, I just find it curious. I was involved in the prior thread where the QR A350 was damaged. That aircraft has been at Toulouse for months and no structural issues regarding airworthiness have been reported. I feel very confident had there been serious structural issues regarding manufacturing processes or systematic issues with the hull, Airbus would have reported it and the EASA and FAA would have mandated inspections. That has obviously not happened.

So I guess it's a mystery. The 787 has been flying much longer than the A350 and it has a composite frame as well. I am not aware of the 787 having this issue. So is it just this particular bird, or is it the nature of the composite or manufacturing process Airbus is using?
AAB seems to be implying it is an Airbus issue with the A350. At this point I honestly have no idea.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:07 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

I agree that AAB is using this to help get wanted deferments, but the fact that QR encountered this first (and might be the only airline to have encountered it so far) is not super surprising. It sounds like nobody disputes there is some issue with at least one jet, it’s about whose fault it is and thus who pays.


You could be right, I just find it curious. I was involved in the prior thread where the QR A350 was damaged. That aircraft has been at Toulouse for months and no structural issues regarding airworthiness have been reported. I feel very confident had there been serious structural issues regarding manufacturing processes or systematic issues with the hull, Airbus would have reported it and the EASA and FAA would have mandated inspections. That has obviously not happened.

So I guess it's a mystery. The 787 has been flying much longer than the A350 and it has a composite frame as well. I am not aware of the 787 having this issue. So is it just this particular bird, or is it the nature of the composite or manufacturing process Airbus is using?
AAB seems to be implying it is an Airbus issue with the A350. At this point I honestly have no idea.


If there is a gel coat issue it is likely an issue of the manufacturing/treating/protection process Airbus uses for the composite. Airbus and Boeing don’t use the exact same techniques as evident by how Boeing primes the 787 sections with some type of white paint, while Airbus uses some beige-ish coating.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:22 pm

Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Polot wrote:
How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

I agree that AAB is using this to help get wanted deferments, but the fact that QR encountered this first (and might be the only airline to have encountered it so far) is not super surprising. It sounds like nobody disputes there is some issue with at least one jet, it’s about whose fault it is and thus who pays.


You could be right, I just find it curious. I was involved in the prior thread where the QR A350 was damaged. That aircraft has been at Toulouse for months and no structural issues regarding airworthiness have been reported. I feel very confident had there been serious structural issues regarding manufacturing processes or systematic issues with the hull, Airbus would have reported it and the EASA and FAA would have mandated inspections. That has obviously not happened.

So I guess it's a mystery. The 787 has been flying much longer than the A350 and it has a composite frame as well. I am not aware of the 787 having this issue. So is it just this particular bird, or is it the nature of the composite or manufacturing process Airbus is using?
AAB seems to be implying it is an Airbus issue with the A350. At this point I honestly have no idea.


If there is a gel coat issue it is likely an issue of the manufacturing/treating/protection process Airbus uses for the composite. Airbus and Boeing don’t use the exact same techniques as evident by how Boeing primes the 787 sections with some type of white paint, while Airbus uses some beige-ish coating.


What you are saying makes sense. If this is the case, it begs many questions for Airbus going forward. Cracks in the hull may not initially be deemed "structural" problems after 4-5 years of operation, but what happens after 10-15 years of operation?

There are a lot of questions yet to be answered. Hopefully the various regulatory agencies are involved so everyone can feel confident this is not a safety issue moving forward.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:30 pm

The linked article from Reuters says two things:

1 Qatar Airways continues to experience and has witnessed a condition in which the surface below the paint on some of its Airbus A350 aircraft has been degrading at an accelerated rate,

That for me prompts the question "what is the expected rate of degradation and what is the planned maintenance fix for it"?

and

2 While the jet had been expected to go to Satys, which is repainting other jets for the 2022 tournament, it ended up on the forecourt of Airbus amid a standoff over who was to blame for exposing metal mesh on the aircraft's skin, they said........Composite jets like the A350 have a layer of conductive metal mesh below the paint to protect against lightning damage. When the paint is ground or sanded away, the mesh can be accidentally damaged causing costly repairs, said Massachusetts-based airplane lightning-protection consultant Allen Hall.

That sounds more serious to fix but hints that a one-off mistake may have occurred during the scheduled paint-stripping process. Or maybe the sandy enviroment in Doha caused the premature paint-stripping, which could suggest a systemic issue for frames spending a lot of time in such environments.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I’ll fathom a guess as to why it is turning into a disaster. Airplanes usually come with a 4 year warranty. If there is significant damage under the paint that won’t be found until after warranty expires, it can turn into a challenging negotiation. Airbus can say “no thanks it’s your problem” since warranty terms expired. The airline can say it’s a design/build defect that was there all along and it turns into a battle between the contracts/legal teams. Multi-million dollar payments outside of warranty require the highest levels of approvals. Airbus isn’t flush with cash, so those internal reviews to get the terms negotiated take time. Airbus has been pretty forceful during COVID to leverage contracts to force airlines to take deliveries, which has helped Airbus’ bottom line, but may have soured the relationship with the contracts teams at the airlines. Airbus leaders may have said no or offered something prorated. Then Qatar will turn around and use new deliveries as leverage, which is a negotiating tactic that many airlines use. If it took 20 years for the damage to appear, then it would be simple. Airplanes that are 5 years old should not require multimillion dollar heavy maintenance

The final payment on a commercial aircraft is not on delivery, but a withheld payment covering potential warranty and performance issues. There are withheld payments on the air frame and engines.

The withheld payment can endure up to 4 years, usually released in 4 equal payments (delivery +1 year, delivery +2 years...). Just because the final warranty / performance related payment is withheld for up to 4 years, does not mean that the warranty duration is 4 years. The withheld payment is usually supported by a bank or EXGO guarantee.

Actual payment of the withheld amount is usually from credit set-offs, not by actual dollar transfers.

There are precise and detailed processes set out in respect to warranty issues, and how they are resolved. If these haven't been invoked, it would suggest there are more parties involved than just the customer and Airbus.

Airbus may be involved because of a manufacturing issue, like a variation outside tolerance, or because Airbus instructions for a 'safe' paint strip are being challenged, or because Airbus have deeper pockets, or other factors, or a combination of all of the above, or.....
Last edited by smartplane on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:56 pm

Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Polot wrote:
How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

I agree that AAB is using this to help get wanted deferments, but the fact that QR encountered this first (and might be the only airline to have encountered it so far) is not super surprising. It sounds like nobody disputes there is some issue with at least one jet, it’s about whose fault it is and thus who pays.


You could be right, I just find it curious. I was involved in the prior thread where the QR A350 was damaged. That aircraft has been at Toulouse for months and no structural issues regarding airworthiness have been reported. I feel very confident had there been serious structural issues regarding manufacturing processes or systematic issues with the hull, Airbus would have reported it and the EASA and FAA would have mandated inspections. That has obviously not happened.

So I guess it's a mystery. The 787 has been flying much longer than the A350 and it has a composite frame as well. I am not aware of the 787 having this issue. So is it just this particular bird, or is it the nature of the composite or manufacturing process Airbus is using?
AAB seems to be implying it is an Airbus issue with the A350. At this point I honestly have no idea.


If there is a gel coat issue it is likely an issue of the manufacturing/treating/protection process Airbus uses for the composite. Airbus and Boeing don’t use the exact same techniques as evident by how Boeing primes the 787 sections with some type of white paint, while Airbus uses some beige-ish coating.


Why referring to the 787? The Airbus A400M and A380 have significant portions of their external surface made of CFRP. Airbus obviously has a substantial experience in this field. It was nothing new to them when they've launched the A350. In any case, the metallic mesh can only be placed on the outermost layer of the skin in order to protect the structural layers of a CFRP skin. It will always be at risk of being exposed or damaged in case the paint stripping process would be a bit too agressive.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 pm

Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

Would be better for the A.Net investigators to identify the other A350 operators of the same model and see if any of them have or had removed an a/c from service after the issue was raised for a few days to allow us to speculate that they were checking / confirming the same problem. Of course my assumption is that one may not have to strip the paint to verify, however, if the warranty is 4 years perhaps airlines may want to repaint sooner, once again assuming repainting is not a part of the purchase / maintenance contract.
 
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Polot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:42 pm

par13del wrote:
Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I find it interesting that no other A350 operators are making the same claims as AAB. This reminds me of the EK situation and STC'S comments regarding the 777X.

How many A350 operators have stripped and repainted their aircraft yet? When news of the issue first broke at the end of last year it was said that this was first A350 that had undergone this process.

Would be better for the A.Net investigators to identify the other A350 operators of the same model and see if any of them have or had removed an a/c from service after the issue was raised for a few days to allow us to speculate that they were checking / confirming the same problem. Of course my assumption is that one may not have to strip the paint to verify, however, if the warranty is 4 years perhaps airlines may want to repaint sooner, once again assuming repainting is not a part of the purchase / maintenance contract.

Most airlines repaint every ~7-10 years. This specific frame was stripped at 4 years because QR wanted to put a special livery promoting the World Cup on it. Of course when repainting an airline might not also go through the full stripping, and repaint over existing paint, but that is if they are being particularly cheap.

tomcat wrote:
Polot wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

You could be right, I just find it curious. I was involved in the prior thread where the QR A350 was damaged. That aircraft has been at Toulouse for months and no structural issues regarding airworthiness have been reported. I feel very confident had there been serious structural issues regarding manufacturing processes or systematic issues with the hull, Airbus would have reported it and the EASA and FAA would have mandated inspections. That has obviously not happened.

So I guess it's a mystery. The 787 has been flying much longer than the A350 and it has a composite frame as well. I am not aware of the 787 having this issue. So is it just this particular bird, or is it the nature of the composite or manufacturing process Airbus is using?
AAB seems to be implying it is an Airbus issue with the A350. At this point I honestly have no idea.


If there is a gel coat issue it is likely an issue of the manufacturing/treating/protection process Airbus uses for the composite. Airbus and Boeing don’t use the exact same techniques as evident by how Boeing primes the 787 sections with some type of white paint, while Airbus uses some beige-ish coating.


Why referring to the 787? The Airbus A400M and A380 have significant portions of their external surface made of CFRP. Airbus obviously has a substantial experience in this field. It was nothing new to them when they've launched the A350. In any case, the metallic mesh can only be placed on the outermost layer of the skin in order to protect the structural layers of a CFRP skin. It will always be at risk of being exposed or damaged in case the paint stripping process would be a bit too agressive.

I referred to the 787 because the post I quoted mentioned the 787.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:12 pm

smartplane wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I’ll fathom a guess as to why it is turning into a disaster. Airplanes usually come with a 4 year warranty. If there is significant damage under the paint that won’t be found until after warranty expires, it can turn into a challenging negotiation. Airbus can say “no thanks it’s your problem” since warranty terms expired. The airline can say it’s a design/build defect that was there all along and it turns into a battle between the contracts/legal teams. Multi-million dollar payments outside of warranty require the highest levels of approvals. Airbus isn’t flush with cash, so those internal reviews to get the terms negotiated take time. Airbus has been pretty forceful during COVID to leverage contracts to force airlines to take deliveries, which has helped Airbus’ bottom line, but may have soured the relationship with the contracts teams at the airlines. Airbus leaders may have said no or offered something prorated. Then Qatar will turn around and use new deliveries as leverage, which is a negotiating tactic that many airlines use. If it took 20 years for the damage to appear, then it would be simple. Airplanes that are 5 years old should not require multimillion dollar heavy maintenance

The final payment on a commercial aircraft is not on delivery, but a withheld payment covering potential warranty and performance issues. There are withheld payments on the air frame and engines.

The withheld payment can endure up to 4 years, usually released in 4 equal payments (delivery +1 year, delivery +2 years...). Just because the final warranty / performance related payment is withheld for up to 4 years, does not mean that the warranty duration is 4 years. The withheld payment is usually supported by a bank or EXGO guarantee.

Actual payment of the withheld amount is usually from credit set-offs, not by actual dollar transfers.

There are precise and detailed processes set out in respect to warranty issues, and how they are resolved. If these haven't been invoked, it would suggest there are more parties involved than just the customer and Airbus.

Airbus may be involved because of a manufacturing issue, like a variation outside tolerance, or because Airbus instructions for a 'safe' paint strip are being challenged, or because Airbus have deeper pockets, or other factors, or a combination of all of the above, or.....


That is blatantly incorrect. Final payment is at delivery and warranties are a liability for the OEM.
 
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Polot
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:28 pm

sxf24 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I’ll fathom a guess as to why it is turning into a disaster. Airplanes usually come with a 4 year warranty. If there is significant damage under the paint that won’t be found until after warranty expires, it can turn into a challenging negotiation. Airbus can say “no thanks it’s your problem” since warranty terms expired. The airline can say it’s a design/build defect that was there all along and it turns into a battle between the contracts/legal teams. Multi-million dollar payments outside of warranty require the highest levels of approvals. Airbus isn’t flush with cash, so those internal reviews to get the terms negotiated take time. Airbus has been pretty forceful during COVID to leverage contracts to force airlines to take deliveries, which has helped Airbus’ bottom line, but may have soured the relationship with the contracts teams at the airlines. Airbus leaders may have said no or offered something prorated. Then Qatar will turn around and use new deliveries as leverage, which is a negotiating tactic that many airlines use. If it took 20 years for the damage to appear, then it would be simple. Airplanes that are 5 years old should not require multimillion dollar heavy maintenance

The final payment on a commercial aircraft is not on delivery, but a withheld payment covering potential warranty and performance issues. There are withheld payments on the air frame and engines.

The withheld payment can endure up to 4 years, usually released in 4 equal payments (delivery +1 year, delivery +2 years...). Just because the final warranty / performance related payment is withheld for up to 4 years, does not mean that the warranty duration is 4 years. The withheld payment is usually supported by a bank or EXGO guarantee.

Actual payment of the withheld amount is usually from credit set-offs, not by actual dollar transfers.

There are precise and detailed processes set out in respect to warranty issues, and how they are resolved. If these haven't been invoked, it would suggest there are more parties involved than just the customer and Airbus.

Airbus may be involved because of a manufacturing issue, like a variation outside tolerance, or because Airbus instructions for a 'safe' paint strip are being challenged, or because Airbus have deeper pockets, or other factors, or a combination of all of the above, or.....


That is blatantly incorrect. Final payment is at delivery and warranties are a liability for the OEM.

I was about to say that makes little sense. Warranty is free (or reimbursed) repair for any maintenance that has to be done that wasn’t the result of operator action/misuse. Having warranty work done does not result in a cheaper final price for operator. It is no different than a warranty you have a new car (in which the dealer/OEM is being paid in one lump sum, not throughout life of warranty).

If there is a performance issue that is addressed separately depending on nature of issue, with compensation if any owed determined after negotiations if not covered in initial purchase contract. That is different than warranty work.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:39 am

I would be keen to know if this problem is only restricted to QR. LH have sent their first few A359 for repaint into new livery, no such issue was found. D-AIXA - D-AIXC have completed their repaint.
 
VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:29 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
I would be keen to know if this problem is only restricted to QR. LH have sent their first few A359 for repaint into new livery, no such issue was found. D-AIXA - D-AIXC have completed their repaint.


Exactly.
What's so special about Qatar's airplanes?

In addition, I think whatever the painting is it is compatible with the structure.
There should have been a list of approved materials/paints that can be applied on the A350.
So I can hardly think about an incompatible paint or anything.

Or, someone forgot to check the compatible material list and applied something bad on the aircraft.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:55 pm

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-06-08/ has some items in it I didn't read earlier.

"Qatar Airways continues to experience and has witnessed a condition in which the surface below the paint on some of its Airbus A350 aircraft has been degrading at an accelerated rate," an airline spokesperson said in response to a Reuters query.

"Some" suggests more than one, no?

Qatar Airways Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker last week urged the Airbus board to intervene in the dispute. Airbus and Qatar have extensive business ties in both civil and defence and two sources said broader issues were also at stake in the row.

I hadn't read either of these statements before (AAB reaching out to the Board, other broader issues at play).
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VV
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-halts-a350-deliveries-after-jet-surface-problem-2021-06-08/ has some items in it I didn't read earlier.

"Qatar Airways continues to experience and has witnessed a condition in which the surface below the paint on some of its Airbus A350 aircraft has been degrading at an accelerated rate," an airline spokesperson said in response to a Reuters query.

"Some" suggests more than one, no?
.....


Yes, some means more than one, I think.

The first case seems to have been detected after the paint was stripped off. It could have been because of the stripping process.
However, if the phenomenon occurs on several aircraft then it could be the painting process (like incompatible solvent) or the way they apply other stuff on the aircraft.

It brings me to the question as whether the damages are on the fuselage or on the wings or empennage. According to the location of the damage, we might be able to deduce something by looking closely into Qatar's A350 hires pictures.
 
ZEDZAG
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:21 pm

VV wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
I would be keen to know if this problem is only restricted to QR. LH have sent their first few A359 for repaint into new livery, no such issue was found. D-AIXA - D-AIXC have completed their repaint.


Exactly.
What's so special about Qatar's airplanes?


Very interesting, as RB757 noted, LH repainted D-AIXA,B,C and what is more interesting, after the QR issue, and all were painted at TLS. So this suggests that LH was indeed checking for this problems, and all three frames are active and flying.
 
tomcat
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-halts-a350-deliveries-after-jet-surface-problem-2021-06-08/ has some items in it I didn't read earlier.


Qatar Airways Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker last week urged the Airbus board to intervene in the dispute. Airbus and Qatar have extensive business ties in both civil and defence and two sources said broader issues were also at stake in the row.

I hadn't read either of these statements before (AAB reaching out to the Board, other broader issues at play).


I guess those broader issues at play mean the risks of 'industrial repercussions' quoted in the previous Reuters article. In this article AAB was also quoted saying "I think now is a time for the Airbus board to get involved and look at what is going on,". So nothing really new except that the defence business is now brought into the picture. Is this an indication that Qatar could leverage on their defence orders with Airbus (I don't really know what these orders are) if QR doesn't obtain satisfaction in this spat?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-airbus-spat-risks-industrial-repercusssions-2021-06-03/
 
sxf24
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:25 pm

tomcat wrote:
Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-halts-a350-deliveries-after-jet-surface-problem-2021-06-08/ has some items in it I didn't read earlier.


Qatar Airways Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker last week urged the Airbus board to intervene in the dispute. Airbus and Qatar have extensive business ties in both civil and defence and two sources said broader issues were also at stake in the row.

I hadn't read either of these statements before (AAB reaching out to the Board, other broader issues at play).


I guess those broader issues at play mean the risks of 'industrial repercussions' quoted in the previous Reuters article. In this article AAB was also quoted saying "I think now is a time for the Airbus board to get involved and look at what is going on,". So nothing really new except that the defence business is now brought into the picture. Is this an indication that Qatar could leverage on their defence orders with Airbus (I don't really know what these orders are) if QR doesn't obtain satisfaction in this spat?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-airways-says-airbus-spat-risks-industrial-repercusssions-2021-06-03/


Qatar has leveraged defense business with Boeing, so I expect they’d do the same with Airbus. While the public statements can be tiring, Qatar is not an unreasonable negotiator.
 
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DLHAM
Posts: 633
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Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:27 pm

VV wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
I would be keen to know if this problem is only restricted to QR. LH have sent their first few A359 for repaint into new livery, no such issue was found. D-AIXA - D-AIXC have completed their repaint.


Exactly.
What's so special about Qatar's airplanes?


Qatar was the first A350 operator, means they have the oldest A350s, combined with the environment in Qatar. Is the plane in question one of the older ones?
My Instagram Account: Instagram
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Bloomberg: Qatar Airways Is in a Mystery Spat with Airbus

Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:41 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Sometimes I just wish Boeing and Airbus will just tell STC and AAB to shove their opinions/criticism/foul mouth up to where sun don't shine.


Yeah, well you see the problem with telling major customers to “stick it” is that you lose money. Companies need money to survive and make profit.
Thanks and best Regards
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