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MohawkWeekend
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New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

Mon May 31, 2021 3:51 pm

I know this is a sensitive subject for people employed in the airline industry and those that support it. But it's a issue that this industry will have to get a handle on sooner rather than later.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/busi ... sions.html
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    LCDFlight
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    Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

    Mon May 31, 2021 4:28 pm

    It's a money grab.

    NYT is demanding payments to enviro-financial industry. Perhaps it will work. Anyway, if it is $1 per gallon of jet fuel, it is burdensome, but very feasible for airline passengers, who tend to be affluent. This is a battle between 2 groups of rich people.
     
    GalaxyFlyer
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    Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

    Mon May 31, 2021 4:39 pm

    Despite opinions to the opposite, rich people worry about money, that’s how they got it and how they keep. It’ll be an issue. SAF will always be a drop in the bucket, an indulgence paid to the God of Climate.
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

    Mon May 31, 2021 6:32 pm

    I've copied the quote from Kirby in the article below. Folks in this industry need to watch how this develops. Both political parties in the US know that a large tax increase on a gallon of any fuel will mean they are voted out of power. Be aware that they will find another way to put extreme pressure on. They may be watching Europe where they are suing Royal Dutch Shell for damages caused by their product. Hammering the oil companies and reducing their ability to produce the products aviation needs will give a politicians a convenient scapegoat when the production of jet fuel is made cost prohibitive. Except of course the fuel the military needs for it's turbine powered aircraft, ships and tanks.

    "The urgency isn’t lost on the industry. Scott Kirby, the chief executive of United Airlines, speaks often about the need to address climate change, but even he acknowledges that it will be difficult for the industry to clean up its act. He wants United and other airlines to try different things and see what works.

    “It is the biggest long-term issue that our generation faces. It is the biggest risk to the globe,” Mr. Kirby said in a recent interview. “There are plenty of things we can compete on, but we all ought to be trying to make a difference on climate change.
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      LAX772LR
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      Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

      Mon May 31, 2021 7:08 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      But it's a issue that this industry will have to get a handle on sooner rather than later.

      True, but it's a war with dual fronts: one of science, one of propaganda.
      It's imperative to win the former, but not sure how one does that in light of the latter. :(



      GalaxyFlyer wrote:
      Despite opinions to the opposite, rich people worry about money, that’s how they got it and how they keep.

      Yeah, right. :lol:

      ....majority of multi-millionaires in the USA, Japan, Korea, and especially Europe inherited the foundations of their money, and derive income from capital gains, not conservation of principal derived from labor.

      So let's do away with the "hard-working care-about-savings" rich person mythos, shall we?
      It's tiresomely simplistic, and a woefully inaccurate reflection of reality for the plurality of people that it's applied to.

      I mean, I'm sure "everyone knows" that person who saved their pennies, and made it to a million bucks at age XX-- but that ain't "the rich."
      That person is just a high-earning and/or high-saving member of the Working Class; who, with one bad market turn, personal injury, missed employment cheque, etc-- is gonna be right there in line at the employment office with the rest of us.

      The sooner more presumed "Middle Class"/"rich" people learn that that's what they actually are, the better off we'll all be.
      I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
       
      Aptivaboy
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      Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

      Mon May 31, 2021 7:48 pm

      ....majority of multi-millionaires in the USA, Japan, Korea, and especially Europe inherited the foundations of their money, and derive income from capital gains, not conservation of principal derived from labor.


      I'm a middle class millionaire - really - and I worry about how to keep it. I invest, save like crazy, and try to live a nice, frugal financial life. I've got another ten years in the classroom teaching Economics and History before I get to ride off into the sunset, and I worry constantly about how to maintain the wealth that I have so carefully built up. So did my grandfather, who never got past the seventh grade but was a serious millionaire in terms of total assets when he passed in 2003 - not bad for a steelworker and bartender. For the record, I didn't inherit any of his wealth.

      We need to be careful when making broad generalizations like that. I think you'd be surpised how many people today are millionaires, at least in terms of total savings and investable assets, not even counting real estate. And yes, we do worry about how to retain our wealth and standards of living which we have worked, scrimped and saved so hard to develop.
       
      GalaxyFlyer
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      Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

      Mon May 31, 2021 8:14 pm

      LAX772LR wrote:
      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      But it's a issue that this industry will have to get a handle on sooner rather than later.

      True, but it's a war with dual fronts: one of science, one of propaganda.
      It's imperative to win the former, but not sure how one does that in light of the latter. :(



      GalaxyFlyer wrote:
      Despite opinions to the opposite, rich people worry about money, that’s how they got it and how they keep.

      Yeah, right. :lol:

      ....majority of multi-millionaires in the USA, Japan, Korea, and especially Europe inherited the foundations of their money, and derive income from capital gains, not conservation of principal derived from labor.

      So let's do away with the "hard-working care-about-savings" rich person mythos, shall we?
      It's tiresomely simplistic, and a woefully inaccurate reflection of reality for the plurality of people that it's applied to.

      I mean, I'm sure "everyone knows" that person who saved their pennies, and made it to a million bucks at age XX-- but that ain't "the rich."
      That person is just a high-earning and/or high-saving member of the Working Class; who, with one bad market turn, personal injury, missed employment cheque, etc-- is gonna be right there in line at the employment office with the rest of us.

      The sooner more presumed "Middle Class"/"rich" people learn that that's what they actually are, the better off we'll all be.


      The days of rich people clipping coupons are long gone. The rich of today made it the old fashioned way-inventiveness. Bezos, Jobs, Gates, Zuckerberg, Swarzman, the PE and VC guys all made it by work. The old families like Rockefellers, Roosevelts, etc have dissipated the money thru the generations. Look at the constant turnover of the Fortune 400. Very few inheritances there.

      https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/

      Years in corporate aviation, I’ve seen many of these guys—they put in hours you can’t imagine and bargain very hard on everything. Yes, I’ve heard, “you’ll throw in the floor mats for free, right?” on a $60 million jet deal.

      As the saying goes, “the rich plan for the next generation, the poor plan for Saturday night”.
      Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Mon May 31, 2021 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
       
      MohawkWeekend
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      Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

      Mon May 31, 2021 8:19 pm

      In fairness to this discussion - most people do not think rich is the 401k millionaire. Really Rich folks own a mansion and another one in a vacation spot, a yacht perhaps and fly private.

      The real wealthy will not be impacted by carbon taxes but the average Joe will. And that's why you won't see them (carbon taxes) in the States on gasoline and natural gas/electrical utilities. You might see them on Jet and diesel. Those costs are hidden from the consumer. The Govt will have subsidies for buying electric cars, efficient furnaces/AC, and tax credits for businesses. For airlines, you may see subsidies or tax credits for blended synthetic jet, electric ground equipment , and new aircraft They can hide that all these costs in the national debt.

      Again (IMO) I see using regulations to reduce the supply of fossil fuels as their most likely method of reducing demand along with these subsidies.
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        fly2moon
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        Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

        Mon May 31, 2021 9:19 pm

        It appears to me several regulatory initiatives are being developed until significantly reduced CO2 commercial aviation is possible. Some initialtives, and most of them are from Europe, are focused on shifting regional/short flying to rail while others appear to be looking to introduce taxes or fees on fuel. In my opinion, those efforts might converge at one point as increased, eco backed regulation of passenger aviation.

        While so far proposed regulations seem to be neutral in impacting legacy vs. LCC airlines, it seems plausible LCCs might get tougher treatment. LCCs sometimes attract traditional rail/bus passengers and what eco movements call frivolous/wasteful travel by offering cheap tickets. I would not be surprised if EU lawmakers start targeting LCC model to reverse that trend.
         
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        LAX772LR
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        Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

        Mon May 31, 2021 10:04 pm

        Aptivaboy wrote:
        We need to be careful when making broad generalizations like that.

        Err, would help if you bothered reading about three sentences past the one you quoted... as what you're purporting, was preemptively addressed.
        I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
         
        Happytycho
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        Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

        Mon May 31, 2021 10:34 pm

        It's worth some perspective, because climate is global: the US and Europe are quite rich by global standards, and anyone who can afford plane tickets is basically upper class or upper middle class globally.

        I see no problem with carbon taxes on jet fuel, because it's not fair for the "wealthy" to pollute without bearing the full costs of their decision to fly. There is no reason that simply being able to afford a bunch of gas/oil/jet fuel should entitle someone to pollute everyone's Earth without consequence.

        I understand that flying is an important part of modern mobility, but a sustainable perspective says that we need to be a lot more judicious with emissions from flying and give increased consideration to alternative modes of transportation (high speed rail) and alternative fuels.
         
        MaverickM11
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        Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

        Mon May 31, 2021 10:53 pm

        LCDFlight wrote:
        It's a money grab.

        NYT is demanding payments to enviro-financial industry. Perhaps it will work.

        It’s fun to completely fabricate things from your imagination :roll:
        I don't take responsibility at all
         
        MohawkWeekend
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        Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

        Mon May 31, 2021 11:12 pm

        The cost of high speed rail in the States makes it an non-starter except in just a few markets. America has already built a high speed land transportation system - the Interstates. I can see 85 to 90 mph highways w/electric cars that are equipped with high tech safety devices before we see HST.

        In looking at this issue I came across the following - that the US Military is the largest single consumer of Oil https://energyindemand.com/2019/06/22/u ... -emitters/.

        The Chinese with a much bigger Navy and militarized merchant marine can't be far behind.

        Lets pass a rule that no country can have over 100 warplanes and 25 ships!
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          LCDFlight
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Mon May 31, 2021 11:18 pm

          MaverickM11 wrote:
          LCDFlight wrote:
          It's a money grab.

          NYT is demanding payments to enviro-financial industry. Perhaps it will work.

          It’s fun to completely fabricate things from your imagination :roll:


          There is no viable technology alternative to Jet-A combustion in the near future (<20 years). This is about carbon taxes. The affluent can pay today, and then other affluent people would collect and distribute the carbon money as THEY see fit. I'm not even against this; just calling it what it is.

          HSR is basically unworthy of comment. The US's airline system is vastly more effective and efficient for its needs.
          Last edited by LCDFlight on Mon May 31, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
           
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          LAX772LR
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Mon May 31, 2021 11:20 pm

          Happytycho wrote:
          I see no problem with carbon taxes on jet fuel

          You might not, but you're also not representative in any discernible manner.

          Governments will have to get a lotttttt more specific as to what such taxes are going towards (if they pass a certain threshold of burden) in order to be accepted by anything outside of the most Leftist administrations-- and I say that as a Lefty.

          The "carbon offsets" B.S. ain't it. Far too intangible.
          I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
           
          GalaxyFlyer
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Mon May 31, 2021 11:38 pm

          The only reasonable way is carbon taxes and an effort to explain the externalities and how the money is spent. No, the money isn’t yet another slush fund to buy votes. Let consumers pay the Piper and decide what’s important to spend their money—true democracy there, which is why many don’t like it. And voters ain’t voting for some pie in the sky promises for the future.
           
          johns624
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:24 am

          GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          Despite opinions to the opposite, rich people worry about money, that’s how they got it and how they keep. It’ll be an issue. SAF will always be a drop in the bucket, an indulgence paid to the God of Climate.
          Yep. Poor people stay poor by acting like they're rich and rich people stay rich by acting like they're poor.
           
          johns624
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:29 am

          Aptivaboy wrote:
          ....majority of multi-millionaires in the USA, Japan, Korea, and especially Europe inherited the foundations of their money, and derive income from capital gains, not conservation of principal derived from labor.


          I'm a middle class millionaire - really - and I worry about how to keep it. I invest, save like crazy, and try to live a nice, frugal financial life. I've got another ten years in the classroom teaching Economics and History before I get to ride off into the sunset, and I worry constantly about how to maintain the wealth that I have so carefully built up. So did my grandfather, who never got past the seventh grade but was a serious millionaire in terms of total assets when he passed in 2003 - not bad for a steelworker and bartender. For the record, I didn't inherit any of his wealth.

          We need to be careful when making broad generalizations like that. I think you'd be surpised how many people today are millionaires, at least in terms of total savings and investable assets, not even counting real estate. And yes, we do worry about how to retain our wealth and standards of living which we have worked, scrimped and saved so hard to develop.
          The funny thing is that those that have a decent estate worry more about having enough than those that are going to get a slap in the face when they retire.
           
          MohawkWeekend
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          Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

          Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:37 am

          RV sales are booming, nobody buys cars just trucks and SUV's, boat sales are through the roof. And airline passenger counts are rising faster than expected with more growth on the horizon. I really don't see how the Govt does anything without pissing off the average American. And since they want to get re-elected, I'm not sure they'll figure it out in time.
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            frmrCapCadet
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:28 pm

            Offsets used to electrify the economy and accelerate wind/solar could be fairly tangible and transparent. Ground transportation has immense 'low hanging fruit'. Residence and commercial heating/cooling are another immense part of energy consumption. Concrete and steel production are another opportunity for carbon reduction. The electric grid needs fortifying and some expansion. Permitting and regulations of solar/wind are still far too often used to delay and stop green electricity.

            As I understand the mathematics of it, all of this that can be done earlier, and is economically possible, in the next 15 years is a lot more effective in reducing global warming than slowly ramping down CO2 over the next 50 years.
            Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
             
            LCDFlight
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:56 pm

            frmrCapCadet wrote:
            Offsets used to electrify the economy and accelerate wind/solar could be fairly tangible and transparent. Ground transportation has immense 'low hanging fruit'. Residence and commercial heating/cooling are another immense part of energy consumption. Concrete and steel production are another opportunity for carbon reduction. The electric grid needs fortifying and some expansion. Permitting and regulations of solar/wind are still far too often used to delay and stop green electricity.

            As I understand the mathematics of it, all of this that can be done earlier, and is economically possible, in the next 15 years is a lot more effective in reducing global warming than slowly ramping down CO2 over the next 50 years.


            Agree, but how much are you willing to sacrifice this month? To remake my house to be carbon neutral would cost 1-2 years of income. Can you discuss how to make steel and concrete without co2 emission? Wind and solar? What would that’s do to cost? Just want to update myself on the solutions. I have a feeling people are planning to remake ALL industries top down without having the expertise that would make it work.
             
            Dominion301
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:51 pm

            LCDFlight wrote:
            frmrCapCadet wrote:
            Offsets used to electrify the economy and accelerate wind/solar could be fairly tangible and transparent. Ground transportation has immense 'low hanging fruit'. Residence and commercial heating/cooling are another immense part of energy consumption. Concrete and steel production are another opportunity for carbon reduction. The electric grid needs fortifying and some expansion. Permitting and regulations of solar/wind are still far too often used to delay and stop green electricity.

            As I understand the mathematics of it, all of this that can be done earlier, and is economically possible, in the next 15 years is a lot more effective in reducing global warming than slowly ramping down CO2 over the next 50 years.


            Agree, but how much are you willing to sacrifice this month? To remake my house to be carbon neutral would cost 1-2 years of income. Can you discuss how to make steel and concrete without co2 emission? Wind and solar? What would that’s do to cost? Just want to update myself on the solutions. I have a feeling people are planning to remake ALL industries top down without having the expertise that would make it work.


            To keep it on the topic of aviation, for concrete vastly lower carbon options already exist. YYC used concrete to resurface their deicing pad that is 50% less carbon intensive than standard concrete: https://www.carboncure.com/news/high-te ... l-airport/

            The conversion of all ground equipment to electric is the "quick win" that would have a big impact on emissions by 2030, as would the "wheel tug" for aircraft taxiing, if that can ever get off the ground. Wind, and especially solar with added battery storage are no-brainers at airports. Solar and wind are now as cheap to produce as CO2 emitting electricity. On the airports side, it's a lot easier to hit net zero than on the airlines side at this point...with the exception of airlines like Harbour Air with their goal of all-electric flying by around 2030. The list of airports committing to net zero is growing rapidly.
             
            Aptivaboy
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:38 pm

            Err, would help if you bothered reading about three sentences past the one you quoted... as what you're purporting, was preemptively addressed.


            I did bother to read what was written, but thanks for assuming that I didn't. What the person I was replying to also wrote several sentences down was:

            I mean, I'm sure "everyone knows" that person who saved their pennies, and made it to a million bucks at age XX-- but that ain't "the rich." That person is just a high-earning and/or high-saving member of the Working Class; who, with one bad market turn, personal injury, missed employment cheque, etc-- is gonna be right there in line at the employment office with the rest of us
            .

            That doesn't describe me, nor does it describe the majority of millionaires next door. I teach Econ for a living; we've actually studied these people as part of our investment and retirement unit. I'm no savant, but these tend to be people who are so diversified across so many asset classes that even in the event of job loss they'd be just fine for a long time. One bad market turn? Nope, they tend to tie up their assets in precious metals, real estate, gov't bonds and King Cash so something will hold its value. One missed unemployment payment won't hurt them due to their reserves. I know middle class types who are already earning over 1K per month in interest alone, and they have years of career time left before retirement, and that's before we factor in dividends and market fluctuation.

            Please don't assume that I didn't read the rest. I just didn't agree with it.
             
            WA707atMSP
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:54 pm

            LAX772LR wrote:
            MohawkWeekend wrote:
            But it's a issue that this industry will have to get a handle on sooner rather than later.

            True, but it's a war with dual fronts: one of science, one of propaganda.
            It's imperative to win the former, but not sure how one does that in light of the latter. :(


            Unfortunately, I feel the airline industry has lost the propaganda battle.

            For whatever reason, environmentalists have successfully convinced many people that the air transport industry is the worst environmental offender, and if people stopped flying, climate change will magically disappear.

            At the same time, other industries like the pet food industry that are just as environmentally unfriendly as air transport are not held accountable for their environmental impact.

            Owning a large dog is much worse for the planet than taking a flight is, but dog lovers refuse to accept responsibility for the horrific environmental consequences of dog ownership, and the environmental movement has been largely unwilling to stand up to dog lovers, despite the significant environmental benefits of reduced dog ownership.
             
            PHLspecial
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:58 pm

            MohawkWeekend wrote:
            The cost of high speed rail in the States makes it an non-starter except in just a few markets. America has already built a high speed land transportation system - the Interstates. I can see 85 to 90 mph highways w/electric cars that are equipped with high tech safety devices before we see HST.

            You do realize those markets are large markets in the U.S. with lots of air traffic right? If we can reduce short haul flying airports maybe could focus on longer flights since more slots would exist though that would have way more carbon emissions from long haul flights.


            America has already built a high speed land transportation system - the Interstates

            LOL, to bad traffic exist. But hey self driving will totally fix all traffic problems :roll:
            Also those high tech safety devices sound like you are almost building a train line without rail...
             
            GalaxyFlyer
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:58 pm

            We had to kill the pets to save the pets! /sarcasm
             
            Murdoughnut
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:22 pm

            What do we care about more than our money? Our kids.

            As a general aviation pilot and someone who works in airport management, I absolutely believe we need to constantly evaluate our environmental impact and whether we could be doing things better.

            It's more important than my bank account or my job.
             
            LCDFlight
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm

            WA707atMSP wrote:
            LAX772LR wrote:
            MohawkWeekend wrote:
            But it's a issue that this industry will have to get a handle on sooner rather than later.

            True, but it's a war with dual fronts: one of science, one of propaganda.
            It's imperative to win the former, but not sure how one does that in light of the latter. :(


            Unfortunately, I feel the airline industry has lost the propaganda battle.

            For whatever reason, environmentalists have successfully convinced many people that the air transport industry is the worst environmental offender, and if people stopped flying, climate change will magically disappear.

            At the same time, other industries like the pet food industry that are just as environmentally unfriendly as air transport are not held accountable for their environmental impact.

            Owning a large dog is much worse for the planet than taking a flight is, but dog lovers refuse to accept responsibility for the horrific environmental consequences of dog ownership, and the environmental movement has been largely unwilling to stand up to dog lovers, despite the significant environmental benefits of reduced dog ownership.


            Right, any legitimate treatment of CO2 issues understands that the planet doesn't care if the CO2 molecule came from an airplane, a ship, a hospital treating patients, a casino, heating homes, or whatever.

            That is why Co2 tax comes into play. Decades ago, it was figured out that if we want to limit Co2, a global tax is the way that optimizes human welfare. It is unnecessary to even discuss air traffic's "relative value" and "relative priority." There is already a thing called money that determines the value of goods and services across Earth.

            Just focusing on this 1% or that 1% of Co2 emissions is impractical and does not solve the problem. We need to look at all 100%. A global Co2 tax would add a set price per kg of jet fuel to balance out the impact. And that's that. But people will be outraged when they learn how much their living standards will fall. Many US/Canada/EU people are comfortable and can afford another $50 per month. But people in India or China will need to pull their children out of school to pay these climate fees. Many people will no longer be able to heat their homes. Painful adjustments will need to be made.
             
            kalvado
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:02 pm

            frmrCapCadet wrote:
            Offsets used to electrify the economy and accelerate wind/solar could be fairly tangible and transparent. Ground transportation has immense 'low hanging fruit'. Residence and commercial heating/cooling are another immense part of energy consumption. Concrete and steel production are another opportunity for carbon reduction. The electric grid needs fortifying and some expansion. Permitting and regulations of solar/wind are still far too often used to delay and stop green electricity.

            As I understand the mathematics of it, all of this that can be done earlier, and is economically possible, in the next 15 years is a lot more effective in reducing global warming than slowly ramping down CO2 over the next 50 years.

            Electrical grids need a complete redo. Power storage systems need to be built essentialy from scratch.
            Now, why those plans do not accompany tax initiatives? Hint - because we need those money elsewhere.
             
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            Aesma
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            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:05 pm

            Funny how the thread sidetracked into being conservative with money. Surely if you understand that, you can understand being conservative with the environment ?
            New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
             
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            LAX772LR
            Posts: 13984
            Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:25 pm

            WA707atMSP wrote:
            For whatever reason, environmentalists have successfully convinced many people that the air transport industry is the worst environmental offender, and if people stopped flying, climate change will magically disappear.

            There, fixed it for you.

            It's amazing how many people have been propagandized into thinking that "Well, if I just drive an electric car, buy XX sustainable product, or do _____; then the climate will stay the same forever!"

            AS IF a bunch o' hairless 2legged apes could *stop* the climate from changing on a planet where the climate has never stayed the same for any geologically significant period of time.

            (And before anyone gets it twisted: that's not to say we shouldn't strive to reduce emissions, reserve resources, and increase sustainability)
            I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
             
            oldJoe
            Posts: 543
            Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:58 pm

            LAX772LR wrote:
            WA707atMSP wrote:
            For whatever reason, environmentalists have successfully convinced many people that the air transport industry is the worst environmental offender, and if people stopped flying, climate change will magically disappear.

            There, fixed it for you.

            It's amazing how many people have been propagandized into thinking that "Well, if I just drive an electric car, buy XX sustainable product, or do _____; then the climate will stay the same forever!"

            AS IF a bunch o' hairless 2legged apes could *stop* the climate from changing on a planet where the climate has never stayed the same for any geologically significant period of time.

            (And before anyone gets it twisted: that's not to say we shouldn't strive to reduce emissions, reserve resources, and increase sustainability)


            True words !
            Exactly these hollow bulbs try to tell us that flying is so harmful to the environment and sometimes fly more than the average citizen. Aviation only has a very small share of emissions. Generation of electricity and heat has the lion's share, but the average consumer would not accept that.
            And NO, I get not twisted !
            I agree with you that there were always strong changes in the geological period. If we can do something to slow it down now, that would be very helpful for the next generation, but all or none, please
             
            MohawkWeekend
            Topic Author
            Posts: 683
            Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

            Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

            Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:06 pm

            I know this is an aviation website but I am very fond of dogs (and airplanes) - Forbes had a good article on it. The study that a large dog emits more carbon than an SUV is just bad science. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmaho ... 36649813a6

            Other studies listed in the report -

            "Using data from the Australia study, they calculated the Jack Russell causes the emissions of about 2o kilograms of carbon dioxide per year, 60 kg for the Labrador, and 90 kg for the St. Bernard.

            Your SUV is over 9 tons per year
            From https://www.c2es.org/content/reducing-y ... footprint/

            Modern transportation relies heavily on petroleum, and passenger cars and light-duty trucks (i.e. sport vehicles, pickup trucks and minivans) contribute half of the carbon dioxide emissions from the U.S. transportation sector. Burning one gallon of gasoline creates about 20 pounds of CO2—which means the average vehicle creates roughly 6 to 9 tons of CO2 each year.
              300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
               
              WA707atMSP
              Posts: 2023
              Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

              Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

              Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:14 pm

              MohawkWeekend wrote:
              I know this is an aviation website but I am very fond of dogs (and airplanes) - Forbes had a good article on it. The study that a large dog emits more carbon than an SUV is just bad science. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmaho ... 36649813a6

              Other studies listed in the report -

              "Using data from the Australia study, they calculated the Jack Russell causes the emissions of about 2o kilograms of carbon dioxide per year, 60 kg for the Labrador, and 90 kg for the St. Bernard.

              Your SUV is over 9 tons per year
              From https://www.c2es.org/content/reducing-y ... footprint/

              Modern transportation relies heavily on petroleum, and passenger cars and light-duty trucks (i.e. sport vehicles, pickup trucks and minivans) contribute half of the carbon dioxide emissions from the U.S. transportation sector. Burning one gallon of gasoline creates about 20 pounds of CO2—which means the average vehicle creates roughly 6 to 9 tons of CO2 each year.


              Other scientists disagree with these conclusions. Scientists at UCLA, one of the United States' premier universities, say pet ownership DOES have serious environmental consequences:

              https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the- ... tal-impact

              Here's an article from the BBC, one of the world's most respected news organizations, abut the dreadful environmental impact of pet ownership:

              https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/ar ... vironment/
               
              kalvado
              Posts: 3163
              Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

              Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

              Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:46 pm

              Aesma wrote:
              Funny how the thread sidetracked into being conservative with money. Surely if you understand that, you can understand being conservative with the environment ?

              Being conservative with environment... It is a very broad statement. Most conservative approach, apparently, is eliminating effects of huge homo sapiens population by simple population reduction. Activists are invited to lead by example.
              Otherwise... those being in charge of tax re-distribution are always the ones who benefit most. Especially when there is little understanding of how partial solutions would fit into a big picture...
               
              MohawkWeekend
              Topic Author
              Posts: 683
              Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

              Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

              Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:49 pm

              If you think a dog eating 7 lbs of dog food a week of mostly chicken and beef by products has the same environmental impact of an SUV burning 20 gallons of gasoline a week (that actually requires the energy of 24 gallons of crude oil to refine and deliver 20 gallons to your local gas station), I just don't know what to say. Please don't get a job making government policy.
              Last edited by MohawkWeekend on Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
                300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                 
                MohawkWeekend
                Topic Author
                Posts: 683
                Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                Re: New York Times Story of Aviation CO2

                Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:53 pm

                Back to the subject at hand - today's crude prices continue marching up. Both of the crude's below are ideal for making jet fuel

                WTI Crude
                67.97 +1.65 +2.49%
                Brent Crude
                70.57 +1.25 +1.80%
                  300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11

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