A pity that EI and Stobart to come up with a deal that would have kept Stobart Air flying until Emerald was ready.

Probably would not be cheap, but if they need to buy in short term lift it will not be cheap. It would also have avoided this mess, which is not going to be good for the EI brand.

This mess could also push more people over to FR, who are always dangerous.

I find the reaction to the Stobart announcement on this forum in incredibly bad taste. We’re looking at hundreds of job losses, these are real people, yet all some can muster is a “oh pity”

Yes Stobart was in trouble pre pandemic but anyone with half a brain saw the writing on the wall as to the conclusion. I still think EI pulled the plug (supported by the fact of EI mainline & BA stepping in) but these are real people with real families.

The people on here who screamed for MHQ have gotten their result. Hospital & ICU at record lows, connectivity & aviation jobs also the same. For now I’ll refrain from naming names but I really hope that those of you who demanded in January that we become Craggy island are now offering
Jobs to the hundreds effected. If not, shame on you, you got what you demanded & I’m happy to name / expose you

Eirules wrote:

The people on here who screamed for MHQ have gotten their result. Hospital & ICU at record lows, connectivity & aviation jobs also the same. For now I’ll refrain from naming names but I really hope that those of you who demanded in January that we become Craggy island are now offering
Jobs to the hundreds effected. If not, shame on you, you got what you demanded & I’m happy to name / expose you

Unfortunately Eirules whilst you are 100% correct, you will get little to no common support for such an opinion on here. The penny is about to drop with the Irish population at large when they see the damage this will do to tourism etc. When the economic data points or incomes don’t rebound like the USA (yes I’m making a comparison) or elsewhere. When the Corporation Tax gravy train dries up (and it will) and income taxes soar. When hundreds of thousands of younger folks once again emigrate when borders open - and they will if they have any sense, dreams, hopes or aspirations.

This is not just several hundred jobs, it is tens of thousands of jobs. Whilst the viability of Stobart was no doubt in question irrespective of COVID-19 - the approach in Ireland has been to shut everything down into perpetuity.

Those who demanded Craggy Island will continue to do so but are much less likely to be willing to foot the bill with the same level of enthusiasm.

Sincere sympathies to all those in Stobart Air and those who are impacted by today’s announcement. Behind every redundancy is a person, a story, a family.

EIBusiness

Please discuss the topic and keep personal comments and name calling out of the discussion, if you have nothing constructive to add move on to the next topic

My regrets concerning the Stobart failure, many authors not least Covid but EI may have a big question to answer about the award of the contract to Emerald, the details of this deal might come out now.

RTE reporting this morning that the future of Lufthansa Tecnik at SNN is also under review.

Funding regional air links could prove ‘impossible’
Urgent talks in Kerry and Donegal after overnight collapse of Aer Lingus franchisee Stobart, which employed 480
Funding a replacement airline to run the regional routes that were operated by now collapsed Stobart could prove impossible, senior aviation sources have warned.

www.independent.ie/irish-news/funding-r ... 32162.html


If the Emerald Airlines deal falls through then its probably curtains for Aer Lingus Regional as we know it and the routes ( only most profitable ones ) will be carved up between EI and BA leaving a void that may not be filled.

It would be absolutely tragic if Emerald doesn’t succeed now after this.

The collapse of Stobart is a real loss to Irish aviation. For the 480 people who lost their jobs especially. Given the key routes that Stobart served across their Irish Sea I had high hopes for their survival - or at least the EIR operation as a whole. I though the BHD base was a brilliant move, seemed to be growing nicely even in the face of the medium term future of the franchise. I really sad to see that connectivity will be lost, but the many crews who I met over the years, all great individuals with their own personalities and great to fly with.

OA260 wrote:

If the Emerald Airlines deal falls through then its probably curtains for Aer Lingus Regional as we know it and the routes ( only most profitable ones ) will be carved up between EI and BA leaving a void that may not be filled.

That’s and interesting thought. I guess IAG do have a lot of capacity that needs to be filled. I have argued for some time that travel after the pandemic will be driven by leisure demand and that demand will not be as sensitive to frequency as pre-pandemic travel was. So replacing 3+ ATR flights with 1x daily A320, timed for connections might be the way EI replaces EIR in the short to medium term.

I’m a bit disappointed to see the sniping return to the forum. I think threatening to “expose” people or “name and shame” is not helpful. Opinions are just that and I’m sure most people have evolved and their opinions changed over the past 18 months. I know that mine have, especially as the course has been so unpredictable and changed from one direction to another. I would suggest that the ability to alter ones views and opinions in the face of changed realities is a mature and evolved way to conduct oneself. Doggedly sticking to one view is immature, at best.

BrianDromey wrote:

So replacing 3+ ATR flights with 1x daily A320, timed for connections might be the way EI replaces EIR in the short to medium term.

Yes it will be interesting to see what happens there. I wonder if Emerald gets delayed or falls through, if EI would consider A319s again and operate the likes of DUB-EDI or DUB-BRS themselves (perhaps though with reduced frequency) and timed to cater for TA connections. I imagine it could be relatively easy to source a few 319s within the group if they so wanted.

Phen wrote:

BrianDromey wrote:

So replacing 3+ ATR flights with 1x daily A320, timed for connections might be the way EI replaces EIR in the short to medium term.

Yes it will be interesting to see what happens there. I wonder if Emerald gets delayed or falls through, if EI would consider A319s again and operate the likes of DUB-EDI or DUB-BRS themselves (perhaps though with reduced frequency) and timed to cater for TA connections. I imagine it could be relatively easy to source a few 319s within the group if they so wanted.

The use of mainline aircraft is strictly a temporary measure. At the best of times, A320s couldn't replace ATRs. I thought STK might have put E-jets on the EDI route in 2019, because the ATR72 was too small on the morning fight, but really, at the moment - with loads being so low, the A320 is strictly a sticking plaster. EI has plenty of time lying around and no doubt many crews only too happy for a chance of a few extra hours. Long term, once the govt has distinguished its posterior from its elbow, maybe they can restore service to more regional routes, but it will be with ATRs. STK crews are available and already trained and Emerald itself has ordered two of them, factory fresh, together with whatever it gets from the STK liquidators/lessors.

I agree with Brian's comments; this forum has become a bit snippy over the past few days. Let's just all take a chill pill and a deep breath and relax. And exhale ...

At the end of the day, we're here because we're passionate about Irish aviation and getting it back on track; some of us will have different ideas about how that should happen, but please let's respect each other and accept that none of us has the whole picture or knows what's happening in the background. Patience and respect. Let's draw a line under our disagreements - before the mods do it or us ...

Phen wrote:

Yes it will be interesting to see what happens there. I wonder if Emerald gets delayed or falls through, if EI would consider A319s again and operate the likes of DUB-EDI or DUB-BRS themselves (perhaps though with reduced frequency) and timed to cater for TA connections. I imagine it could be relatively easy to source a few 319s within the group if they so wanted.

I don't think we'll ever see A319s in service at EI ever again, they're just not efficient. Even the A319neo is not selling at all. Those routes clearly work with a turboprop and some frequency, so I can't see that changing for any kind of all jet service unless volumes eventually warranted it, but that would be far into the future at this point.

Reports that Ireland will be requiring unvaccinated flyers coming from GB to isolate for longer due to new variant. Given the volumes of traffic and low numbers travelling anyway this really wont have a huge impact.

dstc47 wrote:

My regrets concerning the Stobart failure, many authors not least Covid but EI may have a big question to answer about the award of the contract to Emerald, the details of this deal might come out now.

RTE reporting this morning that the future of Lufthansa Tecnik at SNN is also under review.

Comment from ClareFM on Lufthansa Technik and a risk to 500 jobs there.
https://www.clare.fm/featured-2/500-job ... ansa-base/

Stobart / Aer Arann was a great operator for the many years they’ve flown regional routes. They filled a great niche in Ireland, and tried many routes that a larger aircraft couldn’t be profitable on

Ryanair was a Thorn in their side in Shannon, with RE taking over routes that FR dropped. As soon as RE built them to twice or thrice daily, FR would restart, and the whole circle began again.

The mess with Flybe and the instability within Stobart hasn’t helped at all. I know that many here are dumping on EI for switching regional suppliers, but that’s businesss. It’s tough being a contract supplier, as it always comes to Price. EI at the start we’re excellent partners - going as far as acquiring ATRs for the operation.

Hopefully this is an opening for CityJet to step in. Perhaps Air Nostrum is more likely.

BestWestern wrote:

Stobart / Aer Arann was a great operator for the many years they’ve flown regional routes. They filled a great niche in Ireland, and tried many routes that a larger aircraft couldn’t be profitable on

Ryanair was a Thorn in their side in Shannon, with RE taking over routes that FR dropped. As soon as RE built them to twice or thrice daily, FR would restart, and the whole circle began again.

The mess with Flybe and the instability within Stobart hasn’t helped at all. I know that many here are dumping on EI for switching regional suppliers, but that’s businesss. It’s tough being a contract supplier, as it always comes to Price. EI at the start we’re excellent partners - going as far as acquiring ATRs for the operation.

Hopefully this is an opening for CityJet to step in. Perhaps Air Nostrum is more likely.

Im sure we will find out more this week what is going to happen for time being, This is more likely for Air Nostrum to temporarily operate flights from CFN, DUB and ORK using ATR 72's. Also with BA Cityflyer to operating flights from BHD temporarily and there is possibly BA Cityflyer might stay long term at BHD and open a Base at BHD.

Perhaps even sun air. Carriers with IAG operating experience will integrate quicker. We must assume that Stobart flying was loss making due to the corona virus, so you may see some hesitancy putting jets onto regional routes.

I would echo the comments made by others that Aer Arann/Stobart Air were a great operator and they filled a niche in the Irish market.

Back in the Aer Arann days, they established quite a reasonable network of domestic routes (when there were more than two routes from DUB that had PSO contracts), and they also established quite a respectable number of regional routes to the UK from the smaller airports such as GWY and WAT. These were routes which it simply would have made no economic sense for an airline such as EI or FR to attempt to operate with an aircraft the size of an A320 or 737-800.

While the routes from the smaller regional airports such as GWY and WAT are long gone and have been since roughly 2011/2012, some of the routes established in the Aer Arann days, such as DUB-IOM and DUB-BRS, transferred over to Aer Lingus Regional and kept on operating up until the problems in aviation brought on by COVID-19. I lived on the Isle of Man for about three years and as such flew with RE from DUB to IOM on a regular basis during that time. It would simply make no sense for EI to put an aircraft the size of an A320 onto the route. There is a reasonable size Irish community on the island and it would be unfortunate if, between COVID-19 and the liquidation of Stobart Air, that route were to fade away, as the only other link to Ireland from the Isle of Man is a seasonal ferry service.

Certainly, it will be interesting to see what emerges over the next few days/weeks with regard to the routes where Stobart was the operator, in terms of alternative operators, when it simply isn't logical to use an alternative aircraft from the Aer Lingus fleet.

I for one will miss Stobart - I always found their crew pleasant and enjoyed flying with them. My thoughts are with all whose employment is compromised by the events of the last few days.

BHD-MAN/BHX now on sale until July 18th - Daily Aer Lingus A320

EISG1129 wrote:

I would echo the comments made by others that Aer Arann/Stobart Air were a great operator and they filled a niche in the Irish market.

Back in the Aer Arann days, they established quite a reasonable network of domestic routes (when there were more than two routes from DUB that had PSO contracts), and they also established quite a respectable number of regional routes to the UK from the smaller airports such as GWY and WAT. These were routes which it simply would have made no economic sense for an airline such as EI or FR to attempt to operate with an aircraft the size of an A320 or 737-800.

While the routes from the smaller regional airports such as GWY and WAT are long gone and have been since roughly 2011/2012, some of the routes established in the Aer Arann days, such as DUB-IOM and DUB-BRS, transferred over to Aer Lingus Regional and kept on operating up until the problems in aviation brought on by COVID-19. I lived on the Isle of Man for about three years and as such flew with RE from DUB to IOM on a regular basis during that time. It would simply make no sense for EI to put an aircraft the size of an A320 onto the route. There is a reasonable size Irish community on the island and it would be unfortunate if, between COVID-19 and the liquidation of Stobart Air, that route were to fade away, as the only other link to Ireland from the Isle of Man is a seasonal ferry service.

Certainly, it will be interesting to see what emerges over the next few days/weeks with regard to the routes where Stobart was the operator, in terms of alternative operators, when it simply isn't logical to use an alternative aircraft from the Aer Lingus fleet.

I for one will miss Stobart - I always found their crew pleasant and enjoyed flying with them. My thoughts are with all whose employment is compromised by the events of the last few days.

Hear hear, the fantastic crews and service will be sadly missed.

Network-wise, the peak of RE was probably in 2008 when it served AMS, BOD, AGP and FAO from WAT and GWY with a leased BAe146. It also served La Rochelle, Nantes, Lorient and Brest using AT7s in addition to 13 UK/IOM destinations and a full Irish domestic network of 8.

In an ideal world Aer Lingus Commuter would be refreshed and brought back with a fleet of props and some E Jets. If it was a in house subsidiary it would be more stable.

Very dissapointed to hear about Stobart but sadly its not surprising if they were becoming insolvent.

Would be great if Emerald or another company could expedite a purchase of the airline as a going concern and keep most of the staff and aircraft in place. With the regional contract gone however this is probably not an attractive proposition unless Aer Lingus moves emeralds contract forward.

An Interview with the CEO Avalon :


Government needs to be ‘brave’ and reopen aviation – Slattery
The government needs to be “brave” and accelerate plans to fully reopen Ireland’s aviation sector, according to Dómhnal Slattery, the chief executive of Dublin-based aircraft leasing giant Avolon.

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish ... 34277.html

—


Kerry Airport's funding request refused

Kerry Airport, which is reeling from the withdrawal of Stobart Air from its publicly-subsidised Aer Lingus route, was refused a government grant last October due to an investment loss it took on an unusual €1.5m stockmarket bet.

www.irishexaminer.com/business/companie ... l?type=amp


It seems at the moment KIR finds itself in a worrying position unless it can get some sort of plan together to bring back air service .

The Stobart bankruptcy probably makes it more difficult for Emerald to come into the market.

They no longer have a readymade airline to take over.

I see CityJet as a natural fit for Aer Lingus. They have a long history of working together, and are a competent operator. I’m not sure how viable the CRJs are on the EI regional routes, but would give them much more scale with growth potential, and allow EI to relaunch routes - in a way that LH are doing - without having to fill an A320.

For example, EI could relaunch DUS and BER with a CR9, and when traffic returns, the 320 takes over again, and the CR9 operates to CGN and STR - as an example. This isn’t possible on a prop.

Although the loss of Stobart is very sad, i think most of the employees will probably find employment in Emerald which i think will be expedited to get up and running in the next few months. In the short term i think it suits EI to operate the likes of EDI,GLA with the A320, it gets more aircraft and crew activity for them which they need at the moment, and then have Emerald take over in approx 6 months.

For the PSO routes, i see Loganair picking up CFN fairly quickly and KIR could even see FR bidding for that one again. But a question i'm not sure of the answer now is if a UK carrier can operate an Irish domestic flight now post brexit.

Emerald can hire staff... but do they have the systems, processes and physical infrastructure to do what Stobart did ?
An airline is more than just having qualified people on a payroll

BestWestern wrote:

The Stobart bankruptcy probably makes it more difficult for Emerald to come into the market.

They no longer have a readymade airline to take over.

I see CityJet as a natural fit for Aer Lingus. They have a long history of working together, and are a competent operator. I’m not sure how viable the CRJs are on the EI regional routes, but would give them much more scale with growth potential, and allow EI to relaunch routes - in a way that LH are doing - without having to fill an A320.

For example, EI could relaunch DUS and BER with a CR9, and when traffic returns, the 320 takes over again, and the CR9 operates to CGN and STR - as an example. This isn’t possible on a prop.

I don't think Emerald ever planned to take over Stobart, they have already ordered some AT7s. Ive seen varying reports of new-builds from ATR and/or used aircraft from Virgin Australia. They have begun the process of applying for an AOC. I can't image that they wouldn't have kicked the tires in some way. I wonder if there are a lot of liabilities from the Connect Airways disaster that made the airline a bad bet? I know its a bad time to invest in airlines, but the kind of routes that Stobart flies should bounce back relatively strongly and quickly, as evidenced by the BHD network and the continued operation of the PSO, for example.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Emerald can hire staff... but do they have the systems, processes and physical infrastructure to do what Stobart did ?
An airline is more than just having qualified people on a payroll

I'd say the process already begun earlier this year, i saw a few job adverts a few months back. I think another 6 months could be possible. I'm sure EI could help them out too.

And Stobart EI-FSL now heading also to BLL I assume as we speak. It always amazes me how swiftly things get torn apart after an airline collapse. Quite sad really.

OA260 wrote:

Kerry Airport's funding request refused

Kerry Airport, which is reeling from the withdrawal of Stobart Air from its publicly-subsidised Aer Lingus route, was refused a government grant last October due to an investment loss it took on an unusual €1.5m stockmarket bet.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/c ... l?type=amp

It seems at the moment KIR finds itself in a worrying position unless it can get some sort of plan together to bring back air service .

I'm really quite surprised that the airport had €1.5 million to invest in the stockmarket, which then net them a €300k ish loss due to the downturn due to Covid. Doesn't this airport always have its hand out for Government cash? I'm very surprised indeed.

Looks like EI are interested in the PSO subject to a deal from the government .


It has also said it is ready to operate the Public Service Obligation air route between Dublin and Kerry, subject to an appropriate agreement being put in place with the State.

www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0614/1227 ... on-sector/

OA260 wrote:

Looks like EI are interested in the PSO subject to a deal from the government .


It has also said it is ready to operate the Public Service Obligation air route between Dublin and Kerry, subject to an appropriate agreement being put in place with the State.

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/06 ... on-sector/

Very interesting development, the prospect of a double-daily A320 on the route and night stopping at KIR (I'm assuming this as the report says EI has difficulty with CFN as its aircraft are too large for the runway there). Also the Estonian airline Nordica has apparently expressed an interest in running it. They fly CR9s.

WestJet have pulled DUB-YYC for 2021
On sale from 9th May 2022

AmricanShamrok wrote:

prospect of a double-daily A320 on the route and night stopping at KIR

I wouldn't expect to see a night stop, the cost of operating a 320 on that route alone would be massive never mind the cost of overnighting crews too. Far more likely to be a very early departure out of DUB and back.

LOT Polish Airlines increasing DUB-WAW to a daily 737 for Summer 2022, due to restart the route on July 18th 2021

JAmie2k9 wrote:

KIR have made profits of about €800,000-€1 million per year pre 2020 and Covid.

No doubt, but they are still receiving Government funding - €1.7 million was allocated in April this year and the article from today states Kerry gets a €3.5 million annual subsidy.

From my point of view, I would have expected that previous profits would go to offset Government funding with a view to eventually requiring none, rather than being invested in something volatile like shares. Either way, it appears from the article they were hoping the Government would make up that short fall. Shocking!

Phen wrote:

AmricanShamrok wrote:

prospect of a double-daily A320 on the route and night stopping at KIR

I wouldn't expect to see a night stop, the cost of operating a 320 on that route alone would be massive never mind the cost of overnighting crews too. Far more likely to be a very early departure out of DUB and back.

Agreed, it makes zero sense to night stop. I'd be curious if it went down to once daily or stayed twice daily.

I think the terms of the PSO require day returns? Although right now, I’m not sure that is necessary.

Are there any operational restrictions for the A320 at KIR? Ryanair’s 738s seem to manage….

BrianDromey wrote:

I think the terms of the PSO require day returns? Although right now, I’m not sure that is necessary.

Are there any operational restrictions for the A320 at KIR? Ryanair’s 738s seem to manage….

No, a local pilot told me before that the KIR runway can handle up to the 752 at MTOW.

Parent of collapsed Stobart Air trying to place ATR fleet with other operators
Irish regional carrier Stobart Air’s parent company, Esken, is attempting to redeploy its ATR turboprop fleet with other operators following the airline’s collapse.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/p ... 38.article

Esken is seeking to sub-lease their 8 ATR 72-600's with with alternative operator.

Phen wrote:

AmricanShamrok wrote:

prospect of a double-daily A320 on the route and night stopping at KIR

I wouldn't expect to see a night stop, the cost of operating a 320 on that route alone would be massive never mind the cost of overnighting crews too. Far more likely to be a very early departure out of DUB and back.

Perhaps EI will hire in an ATR and crew to operate KIR?
They most likely also have pilots with ATR experience, if they wished to use them.

A regular A320 DUB / KIR service would be insane and the PSO requirement makes using the aircraft for other services difficult, should that possibility open up in the near future (Looking increasingly unlikely).

Aer Lingus caught out by Stobart Air liquidation
There had been a breakdown in communication at senior level between the two airlines
Aer Lingus was caught unawares by Stobart Air’s collapse last Friday as there had been a breakdown in communications at a senior level between the two carriers, the Irish Independent understands.

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish ... 39463.html

Certainly not a good way to run a partnership when both sides had a fractured relationship since it was announced they were to loose the franchise.

—

Should there be railway stops at Strathfoyle, City of Derry Airport and Ballykelly?
Minister outlines her ambitions for rail services in the north west

www.derrynow.com/news/news/641280/shoul ... kelly.html

A rail link would certainly be beneficial to LDY although doubt we will see it anytime soon .

OA260 wrote:

Aer Lingus caught out by Stobart Air liquidation
There had been a breakdown in communication at senior level between the two airlines
Aer Lingus was caught unawares by Stobart Air’s collapse last Friday as there had been a breakdown in communications at a senior level between the two carriers, the Irish Independent understands.

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish ... 39463.html

Certainly not a good way to run a partnership when both sides had a fractured relationship since it was announced they were to loose the franchise.

—

Should there be railway stops at Strathfoyle, City of Derry Airport and Ballykelly?
Minister outlines her ambitions for rail services in the north west

http://www.derrynow.com/news/news/64128 ... kelly.html

A rail link would certainly be beneficial to LDY although doubt we will see it anytime soon .

Rail links with no meaningful traffic ever likely to manifest seem to be popular, SNN, LDY. Meanwhile the only one to make any possible sense, to DUB, is frozen.
There is, of course a rail station at Farranfore, though I doubt anyone has used it to connect to or from KIR!

With promises to have the PSO routes restored shortly, Minister Ryan said on RTE that the Government is to set up a Shannon taskforce (another old chestnut revived) to attract new economic opportunities to the region as a result of the pandemic effect on aviation-related jobs.

A Government “taskforce” - the ultimate delay and distract tactic.

A convenient method of deflecting attention from the Government’s own inaction.

Minister, what are you doing about it? We’ve launched a taskforce that will examine the matter and explore opportunities, develop innovative solutions, generate a blueprint for future development, **insert more meaningless BS** etc etc.

Nothing much more to add here. Really sad to see them go. I have flown on their ATRs the last 3 times I've flown home from MAN to BHD. Really nice aircraft to fly on and always a nice crew. I flew with them last weekend and both flights were pretty much full.

EI could sub contract the flying if awarded. Example, air nostrum or even Cityjet.

The Department of Transport will launch an emergency procurement process this week with a view to restoring air services linking Dublin with Donegal and Kerry Airports as quickly as possible.

www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0615/1228 ... -airports/


Looks like it wont be long before the routes are launched again. Just depends who offers the best quote.

OA260 wrote:

Looks like it wont be long before the routes are launched again. Just depends who offers the best quote.

I like how the article points out that "Aer Lingus has stepped into the breach" as though they're some kind of saviour. The passengers were, for all intents and purposes, theirs anyway

ClassicLover wrote:

OA260 wrote:

Looks like it wont be long before the routes are launched again. Just depends who offers the best quote.

I like how the article points out that "Aer Lingus has stepped into the breach" as though they're some kind of saviour. The passengers were, for all intents and purposes, theirs anyway

Haha that is indeed very true ! Joe soap booking on Aer Lingus website would have thought so too despite the operated by small print. Aer Lingus does indeed have a responsibility for its “Guests” .