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NZ6
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:37 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
My initial thoughts are...forget the E190's. NZ won't do that. They've already go excess fleet at their disposal with little to no P.I and the Tasman not at full capacity. I'd imagine there'll also be 'outrage' of using offshore based Pilots when we've got highly skilled unemployed ones here coupled with government handouts **cough cough** sorry loan.

So if we're back to the A320 we're looking at 2 weekly at 75% at an unknown "yield". That's the kicker of it all. If you could fly once a week if you were making solid double digit yield.

I don't disagree with that - in the short term. I doubt very much that NTL or CBR would stand a chance of serious consideration until the Tasman market has fully recovered - and until the North American market is also back to all destinations being served. Bujt in the medium term, I do see an advantage in having a smaller jet for thinner domestic and regional routes, and I think that it could eventually be a workable-sized fleet.

NZ6 wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is filling planes is half the equation.. perhaps we could look at VA's seasonal service that didn't grow and or that fact NZ didn't continue it post Freedom nor pick it up again under Fyfe or Luxon who both grew the airline considerably as signs for the second half of that equation.

Please don't think I'm completely disagreeing with you or NTL. Clearly there's something there. It's been done before, twice by two different airlines.

I also accept that filling planes is only half the issue - and we don't have the info re VA's yield. My conclusion is also pretty much the same as yours: clearly there's something there, and I'd suggest that in the medium term NZ should keep NTL on its radar, and that it shouldn't be rejected out of hand as a possibility.

NZ6 wrote:
How many people paid positive yield fares WLG-MEL-WLG.

I understood this sector on it's own was wickedly unprofitable which was partially why they switched to MEL eventually although I recall that side of it being kept reasonably quiet.

I assume you meant WLG-CBR-WLG? Again, we just don't know. I suspect SQ did have trouble attracting pax at decent yields, even on WLG-MEL, as the last time I went to HBA I took a routing including SQ from AKL-WLG-MEL-HBA, sold by consolidators at the lowest price on the day. But my point here is that if WLG-CBR could support 2-3x A320 equivalents at low yields, then maybe AKL-CBR with the same frequency could work with higher yields and potentially be profitable.

Overall, I'm thinking of the grander strategy for NZ. It's operating in a Single Aviation Market with Australia, but is still very NZ-focused. Efforts at establishing a domestic operation in Australia have been and gone three times - once when the Australian government pulled the plug on an NZ-"own metal" proposal, then with Ansett, and latterly with Virgin. I can't see them trying this again in the near future, especially with the current level of competition there in the domestic market. Serving points to the west beyond Australia is not going to happen unless the current "no more one-stop services" policy is abandoned (though I confess I find the suggestion someone made a while back for a resumption of LHR services via PER to be intriguing, and more plausible than almost any other operation to Europe in my view). So that leaves serving Australian cities via NZ to points eastward - what I call the "Finnair strategy" (which has done remarkably well for that carrier, and has resulted in a plethora of secondary points being served both to the west and east of Helsinki).

Of course NZ's "home" market is only 30 million compared with Finnair's "home" market of several hundred million, so let's not imagine miracles. But a steady growth in destinations served in Australia (to at least 11, including CBR and NTL) and a corresponding growth over time in routes to North America (LAS, DEN and YYZ have been on NZ's radar before) - and possibly even to South America once it recovers from its present covid, economic and political crises (I'm not holding my breath for that) would position NZ's offering very comfortably in a competitive transpacific market where it competes with QF, AA, TN, FJ and DL. This is not a short-term strategy, but medium-term (five to ten years perhaps).

But if not that, what should NZ's strategy be? Conservatively maintain the status quo? I don't see that being a winner in a growing global market where point-to-point travel is becoming increasingly offered over hubbing: the use of AKL for both point-to-point and hubbing is a natural advantage that needs IMO to be grasped.


Yeah sorry, I mean WLG-CBR-WLG.

As for yields, I guess it's just an assumption what the yields will be.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:22 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Kiwings wrote:
And we really don't know how much money the WLG council also paid to subsidise the service plus WLG airport would have also provided significant financial assistance - most likely in advertising and marketing support.
The problem with both CBR and NTL is that they will generally be once only visitors - unlike QNSLND where you know there are constant repeat visitors.


The CBR and NTL markets will be not just for Tourists. There will be a significant amount of VFR segment, sport teams plus business and Government traffic especially to CBR.


How have you determined there'll be a significant amount of VFR segment? Do we have insights into how many Canberrans or Novocastrians live in NZ or how many Kiwis have links there? - with that last group, what the demographic of this lot because it makes a huge difference.

Then VRF is a complex market to understand and the lines between tourism and the true sense of VFR (visiting, staying with but not being a tourist) are severely mixed and there's no better example than on the Tasman.

Do we know how this is broken down into other Trans Tasman routes as a comparison?

Sports Teams: ACT Brumbies, Canberra Raiders and Newcastle Knights. These are winter low season sports. NRL sides meet each other once, sometimes twice a season so could be travel either way, but it's 2-3 return trips at most for the whole competition. We don't really know what Super Rugby looks like beyond this year, however sides typically play several games on the trot and remain on tour by the seems, although that's sometimes team specific. Either way, it's AKL-CBR only, CHC,WLG sides will likely go directly into SYD and bus with all their gear. No NTL side exists. Other sports, A-league: there's no Canberra side, Newcastle would travel to WLG and that wouldn't be the route. The ABL has a side from Canberra but by memory the season is very short. Other summer sports, cricket, we're not in the BBL yet. I don't believe Netball is a trans-Tasman competition anymore and finally the NBL, that doesn't have a side from NTL or CBR. So sports teams won't make the difference in a route. They'd offer minimal adhoc numbers with truck loads of bags and equipment.

Business: CBR: 3/4 of the ACT's economy is related to federal or local government so without any significant industries which link directly to NZ businesses you can quickly see this is a minimal market.
NTL has wine industry, the port, coal mining and steel manufacturing none of which will contribute in any significant way in either direction.

Finally the government. There's actually very little (surprisingly in my opinion) parliament to parliament travel.

NTL and CBR are markets, very small ones. Any market has Business, Tourism and VFR. The last two become blended in many cases. To claim a route should be opened we'd really need to know where passengers are coming from and what'd they'd be prepared to pay.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:37 am

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125382 ... ustry-says

New proposals which could result in a massive hike in charges for all travellers entering New Zealand are extremely troubling and should not go ahead, Tourism Industry Aotearoa says.

The levy used to fund customs and biosecurity services is under review by the Customs Service and the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI).

Currently, the border processing levy is $20.11 for every air passenger and $21.96 for cruise passengers.

Customs and MPI are proposing a range of options from no change through to an increase that would see the levy jump to $160.76 per passenger, and $70.23 for cruise passengers from December 1.
...
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:23 am

The current Government does not want a return to mass tourism. So they are moving away from the backpackers .Only the higher tier travellers will be welcome back. And they will be able to afford the fee increases.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1910
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:10 am

NZ516 wrote:
The current Government does not want a return to mass tourism. So they are moving away from the backpackers .Only the higher tier travellers will be welcome back. And they will be able to afford the fee increases.

Yes, this does raise the possibility that 2019 may well have been the year of "peak tourism", with implications for NZ and all other carriers serving New Zealand. The question is whether these charges should be borne by the taxpayer, or should they be "user pays"? Is there a case for having the taxpayer subsidise overseas tourists?
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:55 am

NZ516 wrote:
The current Government does not want a return to mass tourism. So they are moving away from the backpackers .Only the higher tier travellers will be welcome back. And they will be able to afford the fee increases.


Will keeping kiwis holidaying in New Zealand…… $160 is around $640 per family of 4. That is pretty extreme to pay that for your return from your family getaway to the Gold Coast.

I do not see how it cost $160pp to process as passenger at AKL for example. Half of the passengers aren’t even having an face to face interaction with an customs officer this these days.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:59 pm

I didn't realize how steep the increase is. It will really put off most travellers if implemented. It might be introduced in a way to ease the Government's budget blow out. Also it is a delicate subject of the Taxpayer subsidizing international tourists it's not easy to answer.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:00 pm

NZ516 wrote:
I didn't realize how steep the increase is. It will really put off most travellers if implemented. It might be introduced in a way to ease the Government's budget blow out. Also it is a delicate subject of the Taxpayer subsidizing international tourists it's not easy to answer.

To be fair, the "steep increase" is the highest of a number of options that are under consideration - which includes "do nothing". There's been no decision taken yet. But if the government is serious about limiting tourism to "higher value" visitors, we should definitely expect an increase of some sort. It may unfortunately limit the young people on working holidays who fill many seasonal jobs that we don't seem to want to do ourselves.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:08 pm

I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.
 
a7ala
Posts: 390
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:27 pm

NZ6 wrote:
I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.


This is but one of many levies being talked about. Including the IVL increasing to $200/visitor and including Australian visitors (currently exempt) at $100. Add on to that some of the large airport increases particularly across the Tasman and you are potentially talking about $550 worth of taxes for a return NZ-OZ trip by an Australian visitor. And thats not even including any future climate requirements, or any increase in charges by overseas countries which will follow.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:33 pm

NZ6 wrote:
I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.



The discussion is just crazy. we really think that customs and MPI should be paid more? They deliver nada for NZ as is.

For real. I am tired of subsidising some farmers in hillbillyville so they can grow apples, oranges and kiwis without competition from Australia.
My advise would be to cancel MPI completely. Maybe its because where i live in Auckland, but everyone and his mother have gotten tired of MPI and people bring sand, fruit, plants the lot, continuously, and have done so for ten years. Chillis from Asia grows in every second backyard, limau/kalimansi from Se Asia, mango from Aussie you name it, its everywhere on the shore. These clowns want higher fees to do what?

And also this idea that NZ will attract the crowds that visit St Moritz. NZ is great for a one time visit. Its not Nice, its not St Moritz and it never will be. We need to lower our fees so we attract every tourist. Aussies, chinese, backpackers, the few high end that may come etc. Seriously its not like the world is standing in a queue waiting to enter nz...
We should be happy for everyone willing to spend money here since our own economy minus migration and property is pretty dreadful for anyone reading the numbers.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:51 pm

a7ala wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.


This is but one of many levies being talked about. Including the IVL increasing to $200/visitor and including Australian visitors (currently exempt) at $100. Add on to that some of the large airport increases particularly across the Tasman and you are potentially talking about $550 worth of taxes for a return NZ-OZ trip by an Australian visitor. And thats not even including any future climate requirements, or any increase in charges by overseas countries which will follow.


Yeah but lets just remember it's all just political talk and proposals.... half of it probably won't happen anyway. I wouldn't get to far ahead of yourself here.
 
Toenga
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:08 pm

Part of those fees are to the airport operators who are suffering a reduced customer base to cover their costs, return on their assets, valuable land mainly (and provide a return to their owners)
The alternative to cost recovery by government agents is an increased burden on general taxation.
Effectively an extremly poorly targeted taxpayer subsidy to overseas residents or to spending on a highly discretionary activity.
I think we will have to adjust that airlines too are being subjected to the same stresses, less customers to service their cost base so this alone will cause fares to rise.
Pressure to reduce greenhouse emissions will also most likely remove aviation fuel from it's privileged treatment.
The world has changed just as 911 slowed up security procedures adding a couple of hours at least from a NZ to Europe trip from airport arrival to clear of customs at the other end.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:22 pm

The philosophical question is this: these charges are intended to meet real costs that are currently being absorbed by the taxpayer. Is it right or fair that we should subsidise foreign tourism - or perhaps it's beneficial that we should?

There is also the issue that as things stand (or stood, before the pandemic) NZ was at risk of becoming over-touristed. I already hear a lot of grumbling about the focus of many of our towns and cities having shifted away from locals' needs. We hear a lot also about the risks posed by drivers unfamiliar with our road rules or driving on the left.

On the other hand a reduction in tourist numbers and a refocusing on high value customers would devastate many smaller communities as the high-end tourists went elsewhere. No easy answers to any of this.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:24 pm

... and we shouldn't label these as "taxes" because they're not. It's a cost-recovery proposal, potentially saving the taxpayer money.
 
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Kiwings
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 am

2 things.
1/ right from the start airlines objected to being the tax collector - and was one of the original reasons why the airlines advertised the airfare only until the Commerce Commission stepped in. Even then quite a few airlines would still advertise the airfare and the tax separately so the public could see what was happening.

But secondly- where do we draw the line. Should there be a tax for the upkeep of public roads to/from airports/ ports. User pays can open a pandora's box.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1945
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:01 am

DavidByrne wrote:
The philosophical question is this: these charges are intended to meet real costs that are currently being absorbed by the taxpayer. Is it right or fair that we should subsidise foreign tourism - or perhaps it's beneficial that we should?

There is also the issue that as things stand (or stood, before the pandemic) NZ was at risk of becoming over-touristed. I already hear a lot of grumbling about the focus of many of our towns and cities having shifted away from locals' needs. We hear a lot also about the risks posed by drivers unfamiliar with our road rules or driving on the left.

On the other hand a reduction in tourist numbers and a refocusing on high value customers would devastate many smaller communities as the high-end tourists went elsewhere. No easy answers to any of this.


We're only paying for it while the borders are shut. The billions visitors spend in our economy each year really should pay for this though.

I agree there's a number of places that had become overly reliant on the international tourist dollar, I think COVID will forever be a case study and consideration for these businesses and their bankers / investors. That all that now lies with them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next election, I suspect the previous one was won on the back of the successful "lockdown" and the 100+ day stretch without a case - those days are now long behind us and the critics are coming out. Should there be a change, how many of these policies will be overturned? Will former NZ CEO be the leader of National? - could be very interesting.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:18 am

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/300330081/air-new-zealand-unveils-new-inflight-snacks

Cookies or Chips maybe an thing of the past on NZ, NZ is now trailing new food options on domestic jet services like ice cream.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:45 pm

My friend told me that Air NZ has won a two year contract starting 30 August with the Australian Govt to operate 3 BNE and 3 SYD to Norfolk Island flights per week. That would be good to get that revenue back for sure
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:20 pm

NZ516 wrote:
My friend told me that Air NZ has won a two year contract starting 30 August with the Australian Govt to operate 3 BNE and 3 SYD to Norfolk Island flights per week. That would be good to get that revenue back for sure


NZ has already confirmed this. It's not a secret

https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/press-r ... d-services
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:43 pm

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
My friend told me that Air NZ has won a two year contract starting 30 August with the Australian Govt to operate 3 BNE and 3 SYD to Norfolk Island flights per week. That would be good to get that revenue back for sure


NZ has already confirmed this. It's not a secret

https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/press-r ... d-services


Sorry I not check on there very often. And wasn't mentioned on here already so thought I might give some insight.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:46 am

MillwallSean wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.



The discussion is just crazy. we really think that customs and MPI should be paid more? They deliver nada for NZ as is.

For real. I am tired of subsidising some farmers in hillbillyville so they can grow apples, oranges and kiwis without competition from Australia.
My advise would be to cancel MPI completely. Maybe its because where i live in Auckland, but everyone and his mother have gotten tired of MPI and people bring sand, fruit, plants the lot, continuously, and have done so for ten years. Chillis from Asia grows in every second backyard, limau/kalimansi from Se Asia, mango from Aussie you name it, its everywhere on the shore. These clowns want higher fees to do what?

And also this idea that NZ will attract the crowds that visit St Moritz. NZ is great for a one time visit. Its not Nice, its not St Moritz and it never will be. We need to lower our fees so we attract every tourist. Aussies, chinese, backpackers, the few high end that may come etc. Seriously its not like the world is standing in a queue waiting to enter nz...
We should be happy for everyone willing to spend money here since our own economy minus migration and property is pretty dreadful for anyone reading the numbers.


Hear, Hear. It's fairly typical of the legacy brand countries who rely on past glories, good PR representation citing bogus industry awards like "most liveable city" and "100% green" etc, and arrogant assumptions to bring in tourism and charge more for less, rather than those who understand that tourism is a competitive enterprise with all nations of the world in one pool all competing for the same money. To get the money you have to actually compete for it, and that also means you have to build the required infrastructure to be able to compete(which needs private investment). As you say, the jet-set can go to private lodges in Africa, beaches in Seychelles, Holistic Spa resorts in Sri Lanka or Bali, Yachting in Greece, Cruising the Nile in Egypt, and much much more without the necessity to fly around the world or take more time off in order to get here. The investment for new tourism projects is heading to dynamic and business-friendly nations that require less capital investment, take less tax, and higher rewards as a result.

It's one thing to take freedom campers off the roads, and increase fines/imprisonment/deportation for those who get caught and those kinds of things which are sound, it's another thing entirely to blame tourists for your nation not building the required infrastructure to allow for tourist volume/sustainability. .
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:42 am

zkncj wrote:
Pretty sure in the 2000s NZ still had an weekly 733 service that flew something like AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT and back.


ZK-NBT wrote:
Did NZ run the 733 as far as PPT? I certainly remember it as AKL-NAN-RAR, there was a 763 service in the late 90s early 00s that was AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT-LAX.


eta unknown wrote:
Are you sure about the NAN stop on the RAR-PPT-LAX flight? I thought they were two separate flights: AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT & AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX.


DavidByrne wrote:
I remember that for a period one of the RAR flights was routing LAX-RAR-NAN-AKL. There was also a HNL-RAR-AKL flight at one time.


Did some checking of Air NZ Timetables from 1995. I don't have any Timetables between Nov 2001 and May 2003.

Apr - Nov 1995 has a We NZ46 AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT and NZ47 PPT-RAR-NAN-AKL '767' with the aircraft at PPT for 14h 30m before returning. There was also a Su NZ16 AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX and NZ17 LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL '747'. Same pattern for Nov 1995 - Apr 1996.

May - Nov 1996 has the We NZ46 / NZ47 aircraft at PPT for just 1hr 20m before returning. Same pattern for Nov 1996 - Apr 1997, May - Nov 1997 and Nov 1997 - Apr 1998.

In May - Oct 1998 the We NZ46 is AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT-LAX and NZ45 LAX-PPT-RAR-NAN-AKL. There's also a Su NZ16 AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX and NZ45 LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL 767.

In Oct 1998 - Mar 1999 the same pattern plus a Th NZ43 LAX-NAN-RAR-AKL 767.

In Mar - Nov 1999 the same pattern but a Fr NZ40 AKL-RAR-NAN and NZ41 NAN-RAR-AKL 767 instead of the NZ43 LAX-NAN-RAR-AKL. Same for Nov 1999 - Apr 2000.

In May - Nov 2000 the same pattern except NZ40 AKL-RAR-NAN and NZ43 NAN-RAR-AKL are a 733.

In Nov 2000 - Apr 2001 the same pattern except no NZ40 and NZ43. Same for Apr - Nov 2001.

No Timetables Nov 2001 - May 2003 and only incomplete digital schedules after that.

May - Nov 2003 has a Sa NZ44 AKL-NAN-RAR and NZ47 RAR-NAN-AKL 733. There was also We Fr Sa NZ54 AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX and We Sa Su NZ53 LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL 763.

For Nov 2004 - Apr 2005 there's a Sa AKL-NAN-RAR and Sa RAR-NAN-AKL 320. There was also We Fr Su AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX and We Fr Su LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL 763.

Sometime between Apr 2005 and Sep 2006 AKL-NAN-RAR, RAR-NAN-AKL was discontinued and there was just the Mo We Fr AKL-RAR-PPT-LAX and LAX-PPT-RAR-AKL 763.

Sometime between Feb 2007 and Mar 2008 PPT-LAX, LAX-PPT was discontinued. In Mar - Nov 2008 there was Th and Su AKL-RAR-LAX and LAX-RAR-AKL 763 and from Nov 2008 AKL-RAR-LAX, LAX-RAR-AKL was Su only.

PA515
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1910
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:02 pm

Great work. I travelled AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT in October 1980 when it operated with a DC10. My first overseas flight and I chose the indirect routing deliberately to get the most out of it! Returning in the other direction it was the flight from LAX, which routed PPT-RAR-AKL (also a DC10).
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:57 pm

Amazing PA515 thank you. Some familiar flights, never actually flew any of those, they certainly changed routes over the years, until the mid 90s was a near daily 742 to LAX via NAN/RAR/PPT/HNL or some mix of those, also APW/TBU-HNLthen extended to LAX on a 763.
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:55 pm

Found details of the Air NZ 732 to PPT in 'Air New Zealand, History' issued February 2006.

From 21 August 1984 there was a WLG-AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT 732, then from 01 Apr 1986 it was replaced with an AKL-NAN-RAR-PPT 762.

PA515
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
MillwallSean wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I don't support or agree with the levi. But many European "backpackers" spend some considerable time here, months in many cases. $160NZD is around €94 Euro or thereabouts. Not a huge expense if you're spending 60-90 days in a country. Plan to buy a old beat up van and drive around for a month or two.

I don't think this is the end of the backpacker market .

Exorbitant fees like this will more likely be a deterrent to the short term middle class family groups.



The discussion is just crazy. we really think that customs and MPI should be paid more? They deliver nada for NZ as is.

For real. I am tired of subsidising some farmers in hillbillyville so they can grow apples, oranges and kiwis without competition from Australia.
My advise would be to cancel MPI completely. Maybe its because where i live in Auckland, but everyone and his mother have gotten tired of MPI and people bring sand, fruit, plants the lot, continuously, and have done so for ten years. Chillis from Asia grows in every second backyard, limau/kalimansi from Se Asia, mango from Aussie you name it, its everywhere on the shore. These clowns want higher fees to do what?

And also this idea that NZ will attract the crowds that visit St Moritz. NZ is great for a one time visit. Its not Nice, its not St Moritz and it never will be. We need to lower our fees so we attract every tourist. Aussies, chinese, backpackers, the few high end that may come etc. Seriously its not like the world is standing in a queue waiting to enter nz...
We should be happy for everyone willing to spend money here since our own economy minus migration and property is pretty dreadful for anyone reading the numbers.


Hear, Hear. It's fairly typical of the legacy brand countries who rely on past glories, good PR representation citing bogus industry awards like "most liveable city" and "100% green" etc, and arrogant assumptions to bring in tourism and charge more for less, rather than those who understand that tourism is a competitive enterprise with all nations of the world in one pool all competing for the same money. To get the money you have to actually compete for it, and that also means you have to build the required infrastructure to be able to compete(which needs private investment). As you say, the jet-set can go to private lodges in Africa, beaches in Seychelles, Holistic Spa resorts in Sri Lanka or Bali, Yachting in Greece, Cruising the Nile in Egypt, and much much more without the necessity to fly around the world or take more time off in order to get here. The investment for new tourism projects is heading to dynamic and business-friendly nations that require less capital investment, take less tax, and higher rewards as a result.

It's one thing to take freedom campers off the roads, and increase fines/imprisonment/deportation for those who get caught and those kinds of things which are sound, it's another thing entirely to blame tourists for your nation not building the required infrastructure to allow for tourist volume/sustainability. .


Agreed. This delusion that New Zealand is some elite destination is pretty quickly dispelled by visiting the supposed hotels that service the most in demand locations. But every answer to a question nobody asked seems to be be tax in New Zealand right now, rather than, you know, doing things better and smarter.

Didn't the government just introduce a whopping great visitors tax to pay for tourism infrastructure? Including for transit passengers, which is just terrible policy making. Or is it a "levy"? Once you introduce these things they have a remarkable tendency to creep inexorably upwards.

Dud government wrapped up in a helluva lot of gooey bs.
 
PA515
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:32 pm

PA515 wrote:
In May - Nov 2000 the same pattern except NZ40 AKL-RAR-NAN and NZ43 NAN-RAR-AKL are a 733.


This should be:
In May - Nov 2000 the same pattern except the Fr NZ40 is an AKL-NAN-RAR 733 and NZ43 a RAR-AKL 733.

PA515
 
PA515
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:48 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
Dud government wrapped up in a helluva lot of gooey bs.


Not so dud according to the majority of NZers. The other lot have serious problems with candidate selection and finding a leader they can agree on. Bridges, Muller, Collins, then maybe Luxon or even Bridges again. Fighting like rats in a sack.

PA515
 
zkncj
Posts: 4279
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:24 pm

NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
My friend told me that Air NZ has won a two year contract starting 30 August with the Australian Govt to operate 3 BNE and 3 SYD to Norfolk Island flights per week. That would be good to get that revenue back for sure


NZ has already confirmed this. It's not a secret

https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/press-r ... d-services


BNE-NLK, must be doing good currently on the temporary QF services to become 3x weekly. Pre-covid wasn’t NZ only doing it 2x weekly?

Looks like the flight pattern will now change with the new BNE crew base. Looks like it will route BNE-NLK-SYD-NLK-BNE etc.

I wonder if one of the remaining a320CEO from the International fleet, will get the honours of being BNE bassed.
 
PA515
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:51 am

zkncj wrote:
BNE-NLK, must be doing good currently on the temporary QF services to become 3x weekly. Pre-covid wasn’t NZ only doing it 2x weekly?

Looks like the flight pattern will now change with the new BNE crew base. Looks like it will route BNE-NLK-SYD-NLK-BNE etc.

I wonder if one of the remaining a320CEO from the International fleet, will get the honours of being BNE bassed.


Yes, an extra BNE flight. Feb 2020 was Mo Fr Su SYD-NLK-SYD and Tu Sa BNE-NLK-BNE. Each week there was a different mix, usually two 320NEO and three 320ceo.

I expect NLK will be all 320NEO when Air NZ resumes at the end of Aug as they can more easily circulate the NEOs through SYD and BNE. ZK-NHE is due in Aug and ZK-NHF in Oct.

ZK-OJB is in CHC and could be next to leave the fleet. That would leave ZK-OJI and ZK-OJM as the only regional 320ceos.

Edit: Just checked the online booking system and they are all 320NEO, but there's a mistake in the Press Release. SYD-NLK and NLK-BNE should be Tu Fr Su (not Tu Fr Sa).

PA515
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:22 pm

So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.
 
NZ516
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:39 pm

PA515 wrote:
zkncj wrote:
BNE-NLK, must be doing good currently on the temporary QF services to become 3x weekly. Pre-covid wasn’t NZ only doing it 2x weekly?

Looks like the flight pattern will now change with the new BNE crew base. Looks like it will route BNE-NLK-SYD-NLK-BNE etc.

I wonder if one of the remaining a320CEO from the International fleet, will get the honours of being BNE bassed.


Yes, an extra BNE flight. Feb 2020 was Mo Fr Su SYD-NLK-SYD and Tu Sa BNE-NLK-BNE. Each week there was a different mix, usually two 320NEO and three 320ceo.

I expect NLK will be all 320NEO when Air NZ resumes at the end of Aug as they can more easily circulate the NEOs through SYD and BNE. ZK-NHE is due in Aug and ZK-NHF in Oct.

ZK-OJB is in CHC and could be next to leave the fleet. That would leave ZK-OJI and ZK-OJM as the only regional 320ceos.

Edit: Just checked the online booking system and they are all 320NEO, but there's a mistake in the Press Release. SYD-NLK and NLK-BNE should be Tu Fr Su (not Tu Fr Sa).

PA515


That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year
 
PA515
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:16 pm

NZ516 wrote:
So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.


It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.

NZ516 wrote:
That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year


The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:19 pm

PA515 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.


It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.

NZ516 wrote:
That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year


The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515


Thanks PA515 for the NLK schedule and fleet correction some how I thought we had 5 320 neos already.. The NLK flight leaves late still out of BNE so utilization isn't a priority it seems. As you say a Tasman flight from BNE could be possible on Wed.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:38 am

NZ516 wrote:
PA515 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.


It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.

NZ516 wrote:
That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year


The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515


Thanks PA515 for the NLK schedule and fleet correction some how I thought we had 5 320 neos already.. The NLK flight leaves late still out of BNE so utilization isn't a priority it seems. As you say a Tasman flight from BNE could be possible on Wed.


PA515 means there could be a Tasman flight each more into SYD/BNE then NLK rotation before a Tasman service in the evening, when things are normal that would certainly be the case, probably not so much atm.
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:09 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
PA515 wrote:

It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.



The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515


Thanks PA515 for the NLK schedule and fleet correction some how I thought we had 5 320 neos already.. The NLK flight leaves late still out of BNE so utilization isn't a priority it seems. As you say a Tasman flight from BNE could be possible on Wed.


PA515 means there could be a Tasman flight each more into SYD/BNE then NLK rotation before a Tasman service in the evening, when things are normal that would certainly be the case, probably not so much atm.


Yes I gathered that is what PA515 meant. I noticed that the Trans Tasman schedule is very irregular at the moment. Some days out of CHC there is two departures to BNE and only one comes back which the aircraft does another rotation in between.
 
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77west
Posts: 1015
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:10 pm

PA515 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.


It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.

NZ516 wrote:
That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year


The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515


I notice the A321 seems to be doing lots of domestic flying, would this be intentional or due to positioning flights to do intl sectors?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:51 am

77west wrote:
PA515 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
So with the NLK pattern changing to BNE NLK SYD NLK BNE. All the services use just 3 days of 320 flying which is more effective than a year ago when it used 5 days of 320 flying to serve the route. This frees up two days which would be of huge benefit. The old routing was like CHC BNE overnight then BNE NLK BNE overnight then BNE CHC etc SYD was similar to get the crews over with the 320 I imagine.


It's six days.
Mo Th Sa BNE-NLK 1015/1330, NLK-SYD 1440/1630
Tu Fr Su SYD-NLK 0955/1335, NLK-BNE 1440/1605

There could be a morning and / or evening Trans Tasman to / from BNE and SYD.

NZ516 wrote:
That would line up nicely so the incoming NEOs will replace the CEOs one for one. Then we would say a final farewell to the last around Oct when ZK NHF arrives.

Then the INT fleet will be up to 14 (7 320 neos 7 321 neos) while the domestic 17 (3 320 ceos 14 320 SLs). Another ATR will come which will allow a 320 to come off domestic and back to International flying. Plus with no 321s on the way currently been pushed back delivery a year


The International fleet will be 13, 6 x 320NEOs (NHA-NHF) and 7 x 321NEOs (NNA-NNG).
The Domestic fleet will be 17, 4 x 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) and 13 x 320ceoSLs (OXA-OXM).

PA515


I notice the A321 seems to be doing lots of domestic flying, would this be intentional or due to positioning flights to do intl sectors?


Pretty intentional you would think, there isn't a need for all of them internationally atm while domestic is doing well, some of them maybe positioning flights, I havn't looked tbh.
 
nz2
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:44 am

Regarding the Pac Island routings, I recall in 1986 flying Fiji to RAR on the 732, all the passengers were invited up to the flight deck to get a better view of Halley's comet, that was the good old days. Also in 1996 coming back from Europe, connecting in LAX to the 767 to RAR (via HNL) for a few days on the beach - fun times
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:06 am

77west wrote:

I notice the A321 seems to be doing lots of domestic flying, would this be intentional or due to positioning flights to do intl sectors?


A combination of things including maintenance on domestic fleet but mostly just best aircraft utilising They use A321s as scheduled peaks, disrupt recovery and also just as gap fillers to allow for an A320 MIQ rotation. Lately, the A321s have been getting more of a workout because of unscheduled maintenance and south island weather with fog and icing across all the southern jet ports causing delays, cancellations lots of disrupted passengers.
With the MEL bubble burst, the spare availability was the aircraft that should have operated the evening A321 to MEL and back the next day
 
User avatar
77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:43 am

aerorobnz wrote:
77west wrote:

I notice the A321 seems to be doing lots of domestic flying, would this be intentional or due to positioning flights to do intl sectors?


A combination of things including maintenance on domestic fleet but mostly just best aircraft utilising They use A321s as scheduled peaks, disrupt recovery and also just as gap fillers to allow for an A320 MIQ rotation. Lately, the A321s have been getting more of a workout because of unscheduled maintenance and south island weather with fog and icing across all the southern jet ports causing delays, cancellations lots of disrupted passengers.
With the MEL bubble burst, the spare availability was the aircraft that should have operated the evening A321 to MEL and back the next day


I wonder if they have been filling them well we might see the A321 domestic order brought forward somewhat. When's it due for first delivery now? 2023?
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:48 am

77west wrote:

I wonder if they have been filling them well we might see the A321 domestic order brought forward somewhat. When's it due for first delivery now? 2023?


If they can shift slots maybe, but I don't think so. For the most part, fleet flexibility is more important in this fluctuating and unpredictable demand
Better to sub the intl aircraft through than have these domestic specs versions that can't do anything else, I think 2023 is a good time for them, the world should have corrected by then, pending any further interventions around the world to restrict free movement and commercial aviation.
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:26 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
77west wrote:

I wonder if they have been filling them well we might see the A321 domestic order brought forward somewhat. When's it due for first delivery now? 2023?


If they can shift slots maybe, but I don't think so. For the most part, fleet flexibility is more important in this fluctuating and unpredictable demand
Better to sub the intl aircraft through than have these domestic specs versions that can't do anything else, I think 2023 is a good time for them, the world should have corrected by then, pending any further interventions around the world to restrict free movement and commercial aviation.


The first Domestic 321NEO delivery is only a year from now. The first five were deferred. That last two can be deferred with a decision window of Jul to Nov 2022.
# 1 --- Jun 2022
# 2 --- Jul-Sep 2022
# 3 --- Jul-Sep 2022
# 4 --- Apr-Jun 2023
# 5 --- Nov 2023
# 6 --- Sep/Oct 2023
# 7 --- Oct 2023 - Jun 2024

https://p-airnz.com/cms/assets/PDFs/air ... tation.pdf (Slide 19 and Slide 20)

https://p-airnz.com/cms/assets/PDFs/air ... esults.pdf (22. Commitments, bottom of page 33)

PA515
Last edited by PA515 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:52 pm

PA515 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
77west wrote:

I wonder if they have been filling them well we might see the A321 domestic order brought forward somewhat. When's it due for first delivery now? 2023?


If they can shift slots maybe, but I don't think so. For the most part, fleet flexibility is more important in this fluctuating and unpredictable demand
Better to sub the intl aircraft through than have these domestic specs versions that can't do anything else, I think 2023 is a good time for them, the world should have corrected by then, pending any further interventions around the world to restrict free movement and commercial aviation.


The first Domestic 321NEO delivery is only a year from now. The first five were deferred. That last two can be deferred with a decision window of Jul to Nov 2022.
# 1 --- Jun 2022
# 2 --- Jul-Sep 2022
# 3 --- Jul-Sep 2022
# 4 --- Apr-Jun 2023
# 5 --- Nov 2023
# 6 --- Jul 2023 - Jun 2024
# 7 --- Jul 2023 - Jun 2024

https://p-airnz.com/cms/assets/PDFs/air ... tation.pdf (Slide 19 and Slide 20)

https://p-airnz.com/cms/assets/PDFs/air ... esults.pdf (22. Commitments, bottom of page 33)

PA515

When you say "first domestic" that implies that the current config is international only. Can you confirm this? Is it possible, in fact, the the new "domestic" config will be literally, identical to the A321 aircraft currently flying a mix of domestic and international? What differences do we expect on the "domestic" aircraft? Or is it more a case of "place holders" for aircraft which will operate domestic?
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:19 pm

NZ321 wrote:
When you say "first domestic" that implies that the current config is international only. Can you confirm this? Is it possible, in fact, the the new "domestic" config will be literally, identical to the A321 aircraft currently flying a mix of domestic and international? What differences do we expect on the "domestic" aircraft? Or is it more a case of "place holders" for aircraft which will operate domestic?


It's entirely possible the next 321NEO could be in the International configuration to provide additional fleet flexibility, but I doubt the rest will. Seven 321NEOs were ordered to replace the four leased domestic 320ceos (OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS) plus three regional 320ceos that were being used for domestic. I don't remember all the details of the weight saving with the domestic 320ceos, but it was mentioned on here about two years ago and included a smaller galley, no life rafts and no HF radio.

PA515
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:36 pm

Found a post by 'Zkpilot' 03 Sep 2019 talking about the difference between the regional 320ceos and the domestic 320ceos. The domestic 320s have smaller galleys, no life rafts, no IFE, one less lavatory, less bulkheads and no HF radio. The weight saving enables the aircraft to get to cruising altitude quicker, and there are three extra seats. Haven't seen anything about the domestic fleet getting Wifi, probably unnecessary.

PA515
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:00 pm

For an airline the size of NZ, I'm not sure I understand enough about the pros & cons of operating two sub-fleets of a type like this in the numbers they have on order; specifically the line between the need for differentiation on the one hand, and the need for simplicity & flexibility on the other, when it comes to these things over important but relatively short haul flights. Would love to understand this better but anyhow I suspect that fleet flexibility for A321, given there is no substantial onboard config difference, could be helpful to the flexibility to adjust capacity according to demand for seasonal routes to Pacific islands, Queensland, etc... nimble & adaptable!
 
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am

NZ321 wrote:
For an airline the size of NZ, I'm not sure I understand enough about the pros & cons of operating two sub-fleets of a type like this in the numbers they have on order; specifically the line between the need for differentiation on the one hand, and the need for simplicity & flexibility on the other, when it comes to these things over important but relatively short haul flights. Would love to understand this better but anyhow I suspect that fleet flexibility for A321, given there is no substantial onboard config difference, could be helpful to the flexibility to adjust capacity according to demand for seasonal routes to Pacific islands, Queensland, etc... nimble & adaptable!


That's what I was thinking as well, are the weight savings enough to offset the reduced flexibility? What would it be, maybe 1500kg?

Unless of course NZ ever considered a small Business cabin on the Intl A321 fleet to compete with QF J product on its 737's (and A330 which seem to be over here quite often these days)
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 71
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:32 am

77west wrote:

That's what I was thinking as well, are the weight savings enough to offset the reduced flexibility? What would it be, maybe 1500kg?

Unless of course NZ ever considered a small Business cabin on the Intl A321 fleet to compete with QF J product on its 737's (and A330 which seem to be over here quite often these days)


I believe they considered it, and rejected it.

From memory, I recall hearing that back in the day when they had an 8 seat business cabin on the original international A320 fleet, they averaged 1 paid J passenger per flight on Tassie routes to/from WLG/CHC When they did the sums, it made more sense to rip out those seats and replace them with a product they could actually sell.
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