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gdg9
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:49 pm

SWADawg wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
This certainly wouldn't be a career ender for the pilot would it? Its a mistake sure, but... ?? Asking as I have no idea. I suppose too it also depends on other factors, history, etc.

Not a career ender at all, more embarrassing than anything else. This unfortunately happens from time to time. I’ve nearly lined up on taxiway edge markings thinking I was on the taxiway centerline. The line markings are very similar. What a lot of passengers don’t realize is the taxi from the gate to the runway and back to the gate upon landing is more fraught with danger than the flight itself because of all the obstacles that a wing can come into contact with along with other Aircraft and ground vehicles. It could honestly happen to anyone over the course of a 30 year flying career unfortunately.


That's very interesting about the taxiing being more dangerous. But I can see that thinking more about it. Certainly whenever I've been on the ramp at DFW it is an active place. Glad the pilot's won't get fired. Thanks!
 
kiowa
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:30 pm

gdg9 wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
This certainly wouldn't be a career ender for the pilot would it? Its a mistake sure, but... ?? Asking as I have no idea. I suppose too it also depends on other factors, history, etc.

Not a career ender at all, more embarrassing than anything else. This unfortunately happens from time to time. I’ve nearly lined up on taxiway edge markings thinking I was on the taxiway centerline. The line markings are very similar. What a lot of passengers don’t realize is the taxi from the gate to the runway and back to the gate upon landing is more fraught with danger than the flight itself because of all the obstacles that a wing can come into contact with along with other Aircraft and ground vehicles. It could honestly happen to anyone over the course of a 30 year flying career unfortunately.


That's very interesting about the taxiing being more dangerous. But I can see that thinking more about it. Certainly whenever I've been on the ramp at DFW it is an active place. Glad the pilot's won't get fired. Thanks!



Probably, unless this was not his/hers first problem.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:32 pm

 
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william
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:48 pm

Noshow wrote:
You seem to know more? So it was some technical glitch? Steering locked or similar? Aren't you doing the same thing you criticize?


1. On the ground in a Piper the first thing I learned when taxiing is STAY ON THE LINE, almost did the same thing this pilot did, clip the left wing. An object lesson for me.

2. As a frequent flyer, been flying out of that airport for over 40 years, taxied around that same corner hundreds of times on various size and less automated aircrafts and we never clipped that pole. Compared to the criticism the pilots are going to get from the company this thread's criticism is inconsequential.

My question is did the tug line the aircraft up on that line? Must be a reason the pilot chose that line.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352

Even then, taking the correct lane 22, is tight, especially if there is aircraft on lane 24.
Last edited by william on Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It's about the damage not about the age.


The cost to repair will be weighed against the remaining value in use of the airframe, which is indeed a function of age, among other factors/alternatives.


Please. It's gonna be repaired. Not even close.


Given the value in use of the airframe is very significant because of the airframe’s relatively young AGE, I agree, no chance it isn’t repaired and returned to service.

Hence my point.
 
ZazuPIT
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:00 pm

chonetsao wrote:
The pilot had a bad day, it happens, although very very very rarely.

From an airport designer point of view, that is why non-circular building (i.e. terminal building and parking bays with straight lines) with minimum obstacle (i.e. light poles close to the terminal building or near or even behind the boarding bridge) as possible is the way to go forward. A design that eliminate any possibility of accident, or a dummy prove design is boring but badly needed to many older or smaller airports. Many modern airports got it right.

Maybe an opportunity to abandon the house shoe design in DFW (although the new spike annex in terminal A and C will drastically change the design, but it does not take away the obstacles).


You're blaming the airport design? Sure, let's gut the entire airport because of this. I'd be interested to know how many times this has happened at DFW. Quite obvious the plane was not following the line.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:18 pm

DL had an MD88 take out a light pole in BNA in a few years ago (2013). The aircraft sat for months in BNA and was repaired.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20130613-2
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:34 pm

This looks markedly different than AA300 which is what some have been alluding to. My guess is that this happened at maybe 10 MPH and those poles are designed to break off.

As to things being frangible: yes most things on airport grounds are designed to be frangible. Others used to NOT be frangible but were redesigned post AA 1420 and the lawsuits that arose out of that incident..
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:41 pm

william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You seem to know more? So it was some technical glitch? Steering locked or similar? Aren't you doing the same thing you criticize?


1. On the ground in a Piper the first thing I learned when taxiing is STAY ON THE LINE, almost did the same thing this pilot did, clip the left wing. An object lesson for me.

2. As a frequent flyer, been flying out of that airport for over 40 years, taxied around that same corner hundreds of times on various size and less automated aircrafts and we never clipped that pole. Compared to the criticism the pilots are going to get from the company this thread's criticism is inconsequential.

My question is did the tug line the aircraft up on that line? Must be a reason the pilot chose that line.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352

Even then, taking the correct lane 22, is tight, especially if there is aircraft on lane 24.


Same comment - that was lesson number one in the C172 for me as well - stay on centerlines. Looking at that overhead on Google, it seems awfully difficult to confuse the taxiway border with the centerline, especially given the proximity of all the bagcart clutter.
 
IADCA
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:52 pm

Max Q wrote:


Anything’s frangible if you hit it hard enough..


:D Very true.


jetmatt777 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
smithbs wrote:

The term you are thinking of is frangible. In airfield infrastructure engineering, frangible means the item must break off in a known manner, such that the aircraft might survive and continue to function. All airfield items such as lighting, poles and towers are supposed to be frangible.

It stems from the old days of incidents where aircraft strayed during takeoff (or balked landing) and had their guts ripped out by very sturdy runway fixtures and made a bad situation much worse. Had such fixtures not had the Earth attached to them but instead had given way in an engineered fashion, the aircraft could have had better chances of surviving.


It's quite clear from the way the fixture breaks and some closer shots of the aftermath circulating that this fixture was indeed frangible.

arfbool wrote:
Poor choice to taxi not on any line. However the video looks sped up to me.


Well, yeah, it's sped up. But so what?


Very true.

Would you like your red-light camera video showed to the judge sped up at 300% or played at real time?

So what?


I wouldn't care. I'd stand up and point out that the video is sped up. Judges aren't stupid.
 
A388
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:19 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Murphy’s Law: If anything can go wrong, it will.
Thompson’ Corollary to Murphy’s Law:
“Murphy was way too f’in optimistic. Plan for it, dammit!”


Good one :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A388
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:29 pm

No excuse for a taxi accident.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:42 pm

So my house catches fire and I call fire dept. and they forget to bring the hoses because they are stressed, busy and in a rush and that's ok just because?
Oh c'mon!
Things like this happens when you don't pay attention on what you're doing and do that in "auto" mode.
Excess of confidence costs money. And jobs.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:42 pm

About pAAr for the course. Something about a monkey and a football.....

Someone thought they were commuting to work on 183.
 
DualQual
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:49 pm

A couple of things that need to be addressed since everyone is a great Monday Morning QB.

No the crew will not get fired. People make mistakes. As with every single investigation after any kind of incident the investigators will be trying to determine why the mistake was made and understand ALL the factors that played into it. Short of this crew being known bad actors or deliberately negligent in this instance they’ll get some re-training and released back to the line.

As for what ALL the factors could be things that will be looked at:
1) New Captain? New F/O? Both newer to seat/fleet?
2) Weather factors (yes it looks like it was clear but could sun glare have been a problem?)
3) Airport layout? No one is suggesting gut DFW but could that have played a factor and by how much?
4) AA’s taxi procedures. What tasks do the crew have to accomplish and when on taxi?

Unfortunately for these two pilots they had a proverbial brain fart at the exact wrong time. The safety investigation will get to the bottom of why. It’s not far fetched to assume a scenario of crew was verifying something in the FMC as part of a checklist and both accidentally ended up heads down during a turn, got disoriented when looking up back outside and got on the wrong line. Or both were clearing for traffic during the turn and again, got disoriented looking back to the direction of the turn and got on the wrong line. Maybe the Captain was new to the seat and hadn’t been to DFW in years because they were a JFK based widebody FO. That happens. In the end the company and the union/pilots will work together to understand what happened and do what needs to be done to make it a safer and better operation because that is in the best interests of both parties.
 
496TFS
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Believe me, all AA pilots never taxi unless there is a line to follow (evidently any line) and they normally taxi excruciatingly SLOW!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:59 pm

DualQual wrote:
3) Airport layout? No one is suggesting gut DFW but could that have played a factor and by how much?


AA are the DFW in-house experts, and this configuration has been used how long now? I'm a bit skeptical on this particular point's relevance.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:01 pm

DualQual wrote:
In the end the company and the union/pilots will work together to understand what happened and do what needs to be done to make it a safer and better operation because that is in the best interests of both parties.


It'll go something like this:
-Crew will say it is the company's fault
-Company will say it is the crew's fault
-Crew will say they don't get paid enough for the working conditions and the company creates an unsafe working environment by not having a 'Pre-Tiller Turning Checklist'
-Company will round up a team of people from all departments and they will spend the next 6 months discussing how to properly implement a new checklist to address the concerns
-Checklist will be released and everyone will throw a tantrum because they would have done it differently (and it creates extra needless work)
-The number of delays will increase due to time required to comply with 'Pre-Tiller Turning Checklist'
-The folks in corporate will be in a panic due to the increased delays and a new task force with a snazzy name will be created
-After spending 2 months developing a smart sounding name, the new task force will take an additional 12 months to research why the delays are occurring
-They will pinpoint the checklist as being the cause of the delays but will be unable to eliminate it since they received FAA buy-in as it being part of the corrective action for someone mowing down a lightpole
-The checklist will exist forever and be a burden for all because no one wants to deal with the FAA
-Some dork in a cubicle will pat themselves on the back for making aviation better
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:17 pm

ZazuPIT wrote:
Quite obvious the plane was not following the line.


Actually, I'd say it was obvious that they were following the WRONG line, looking at the satellite view. Which makes me wonder why that line isn't painted in an obviously different color so as not to be mistaken for the centerline. Make it blue to correspond to taxiway edge lighting.
 
737MAX7
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:31 pm

777luver wrote:
As usual some posters are criticizing the pilots without knowing any of the circumstances.

Yeah let's be arm chair pilots. We know exactly what happened. We're professionals. *sarcasm

The circumstances were they taxied into a light pole…. Pretty cut and dry there bud :roll:
 
catiii
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:38 pm

william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You seem to know more? So it was some technical glitch? Steering locked or similar? Aren't you doing the same thing you criticize?


1. On the ground in a Piper the first thing I learned when taxiing is STAY ON THE LINE, almost did the same thing this pilot did, clip the left wing. An object lesson for me.

2. As a frequent flyer, been flying out of that airport for over 40 years, taxied around that same corner hundreds of times on various size and less automated aircrafts and we never clipped that pole. Compared to the criticism the pilots are going to get from the company this thread's criticism is inconsequential.


With all your light airplane experience and time sitting in coach...where's the centerline on that video?
 
tjerome
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:43 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
tjerome wrote:
21 year old aircraft... wouldn't be surprised if it's a write off depending on the cost to fix it.

11 years old, we are in 2021 now, not 2031.


Whoops you're right. That's probably fixable then.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:50 pm

Is it my imagination or I always seem to feel that DFW tends to have things very close together at the aprons and there is not much space. Some gates can only handle narrowbodies. Do you think the tightness was a factor?
 
DualQual
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:05 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
777luver wrote:
As usual some posters are criticizing the pilots without knowing any of the circumstances.

Yeah let's be arm chair pilots. We know exactly what happened. We're professionals. *sarcasm

The circumstances were they taxied into a light pole…. Pretty cut and dry there bud :roll:


No, it’s not pretty cut and dried. Hence the need, as always in these instances, to investigate all the factors.
 
DualQual
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:10 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DualQual wrote:
3) Airport layout? No one is suggesting gut DFW but could that have played a factor and by how much?


AA are the DFW in-house experts, and this configuration has been used how long now? I'm a bit skeptical on this particular point's relevance.


And if you read my entire you post you’d understand why this is relevant. Was it a new Captain who maybe hasn’t been to DFW in a long time? That is a strong possibility. Go to any airline (at least of the US3) and you can find pilots who due to equipment or bidding preferences haven’t been to a particular hub in a long time. Maybe the Captain was previously a legacy US PHL widebody FO for years and had never been to DFW.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:40 pm

That's one way to "put out the lights".
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:21 pm

arfbool wrote:
However the video looks sped up to me.

arfbool wrote:
It's disingenuous. Makes the pilot look like they were taxiing like a maniac to boot.

It is normal for security cameras to capture frames at a slower rate than real time to save storage space then it often gets played back at normal frame rate which makes it look fast. Slowing it down to compensate creates a jerky playback. More of a technical glitch than deliberate malfeasance, IMO.

hitower3 wrote:
Duct tape jokes aside..

Killjoy! :biggrin:

777luver wrote:
As usual some posters are criticizing the pilots without knowing any of the circumstances.

Yeah let's be arm chair pilots. We know exactly what happened. We're professionals. *sarcasm

We've already seen someone take a swipe at a competitor to ease their butthurt.

Have we got to the point where we blame Boeing yet? *sarcasm
 
arfbool
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
arfbool wrote:
However the video looks sped up to me.

arfbool wrote:
It's disingenuous. Makes the pilot look like they were taxiing like a maniac to boot.

It is normal for security cameras to capture frames at a slower rate than real time to save storage space then it often gets played back at normal frame rate which makes it look fast. Slowing it down to compensate creates a jerky playback. More of a technical glitch than deliberate malfeasance, IMO.


Right, I thought it might be a format framerate issue. Anyone investigating the incident would be aware of the correct framerate, but with the way videos go viral these days, it makes AA look worse in an unfair way.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:59 pm

Anybody remember that Air France A380 whacking a Comair CRJ7 at JFK years ago?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJCqBQLTWmw
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:03 pm

Dang. That's some damage.
 
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william
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:42 pm

catiii wrote:
william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You seem to know more? So it was some technical glitch? Steering locked or similar? Aren't you doing the same thing you criticize?


1. On the ground in a Piper the first thing I learned when taxiing is STAY ON THE LINE, almost did the same thing this pilot did, clip the left wing. An object lesson for me.

2. As a frequent flyer, been flying out of that airport for over 40 years, taxied around that same corner hundreds of times on various size and less automated aircrafts and we never clipped that pole. Compared to the criticism the pilots are going to get from the company this thread's criticism is inconsequential.


With all your light airplane experience and time sitting in coach...where's the centerline on that video?


Well, you see the lines that have the numbers 22,23, and 24? That is where you want to be. The line thats closer to the edge than you remembered last time and its not numbered, don't follow that one. Funny the things you learn staring out of gate watching planes doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over.........

I bet when the investigation is over, its going to be shown that the tug aligned the aircraft on that line. If that is the case, who fault is it?
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:50 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Image


Yeouch.
Revelation wrote:
Have we got to the point where we blame Boeing yet? *sarcasm


No, but someone already asked if it was a W/O.

So, in accordance with A.net SOP, I'd like to remark that it will buff right out.

Ok, NOW we can try blaming Boeing. :mrgreen:
 
chrisair
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:52 pm

Max Q wrote:
Anything’s frangible if you hit it hard enough..


That's the spirit!
 
bigb
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:08 pm

william wrote:
catiii wrote:
william wrote:

1. On the ground in a Piper the first thing I learned when taxiing is STAY ON THE LINE, almost did the same thing this pilot did, clip the left wing. An object lesson for me.

2. As a frequent flyer, been flying out of that airport for over 40 years, taxied around that same corner hundreds of times on various size and less automated aircrafts and we never clipped that pole. Compared to the criticism the pilots are going to get from the company this thread's criticism is inconsequential.


With all your light airplane experience and time sitting in coach...where's the centerline on that video?


Well, you see the lines that have the numbers 22,23, and 24? That is where you want to be. The line thats closer to the edge than you remembered last time and its not numbered, don't follow that one. Funny the things you learn staring out of gate watching planes doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over.........

I bet when the investigation is over, its going to be shown that the tug aligned the aircraft on that line. If that is the case, who fault is it?


Like you have haven’t made mistakes before........

Geez a lot weekend/keyboard warriors out here monday QBing..
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:09 pm

If there is a line at the edge that should not be followed, it should have stripes in the area which shows it's a restricted zone. Maybe the ground needs to be repainted?
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:33 pm

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Was it those pilots first time at DFW? How do you do that?

This is what Im wondering. Why wouldn't an AA pilot know the field the back of his hand? Unless AA stands for something else.
 
bigb
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:43 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Was it those pilots first time at DFW? How do you do that?

This is what Im wondering. Why wouldn't an AA pilot know the field the back of his hand? Unless AA stands for something else.


Not every AA pilot sees DFW on the regular to be familiar depending on their fleet/seat. Just like how DFW guys who aren’t familiar with CLT can kill the ramp flow.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:15 pm

hitower3 wrote:
Dear all,

Duct tape jokes aside, what would be the cost to repair such a damage?


$ 200 to $ 500K, at least? Plus the lightbulbs of the pole that have gone busted?
 
tcfc424
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:17 pm

It's an avoidable incident for sure, however if you look at those same edge markings by C, they don't dip into the ramp area as deeply, and it seems more clear (to me-completely untrained) that those are edge markings versus the ones near A that venture "closer" to the actual taxilane markings. If you look at the map of LAX, any area that shouldn't have airplanes on it has the hash marks and green paint. That would be a relatively quick and inexpensive way to reduce the possibility of recurrence?

*edited to add the green paint found at LAX
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:28 pm

tcfc424 wrote:
It's an avoidable incident for sure, however if you look at those same edge markings by C, they don't dip into the ramp area as deeply, and it seems more clear (to me-completely untrained) that those are edge markings versus the ones near A that venture "closer" to the actual taxilane markings. If you look at the map of LAX, any area that shouldn't have airplanes on it has the hash marks and green paint. That would be a relatively quick and inexpensive way to reduce the possibility of recurrence?

*edited to add the green paint found at LAX


A *whole lotta* green paint. LAX, SAN, and BUR make pretty liberal use of the green paint.
 
awthompson
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:43 pm

I have identified the location on the field but its too complicated to add an image here (I have not posted on this site for a long time and so I'm out of date with how this works).

If someone else is able to add a screenshot from satellite imagery, the location is behind (directly to the east of) stands A33 and A34 and heading away from the terminal towards taxiway Kilo. I'm not familiar with DFW, but if I'm reading the taxi diagram correctly, I think aircraft was turning left onto taxiway Echo Kilo?

It appears to me that the crew was accidentally following the edge line instead of the centreline!

But again, as another member has stated, this is an easy mistake to make when crew is very busy just after starting to taxi. There are multiple lines in this area with at least three centrelines on this taxiway, one for each direction (west-east and east-west) and a middle line between the two, I guess for aircraft with large wing spans?.

Centrelines are yellow and edge lines are double white which are both correct. However, surely the area outside the taxiway / beyond the double white, would need to be hatched or colored differently to delineate the taxiway more clearly and avoid this happening again? It would be an expensive fix as the airport is very large however when compared to the cost of damage repair to one or more aircraft, maybe taxiway markings will need to be improved.
 
miegapele
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:08 pm

Those poorly trained 150 hour pilots again. This would have never happened in the US. Oh wait... I mean incidents happen, there is no need to blame anyone, we need to learn from the mistakes.
 
Shakinthefat
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:41 am

trnswrld wrote:
Yeah that’s not pretty. The amount of stress that wing had to have taken to make the entire plane twist to the left like that must have been pretty extreme. No clue what those pilots were looking at because it certainly wasn’t the area around them.

Sad to see the picture of the wing.
Last edited by Shakinthefat on Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Shakinthefat
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:49 am

ba9216c wrote:
We shouldn't really criticise here. It is a busy time for flight crew. They've only just left the terminal, they've only just started the engines, they'll be busy doing after start check list and setting the aircraft up ready to fly. It is a busy time with lots of distractions and can happen to any professional.

Most airlines FOM’s discuss distractions especially in the ramp area while taxiing. Checklist and starting engines should be delayed till clear of ramp. Professional Crew had an unprofessional moment.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3040
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:13 am

FluidFlow wrote:
AA has an abundance of aircraft at the moment,


AA certainly does not have an abundance of narrowbodies currently.

awthompson wrote:
I have identified the location on the field but its too complicated to add an image here (I have not posted on this site for a long time and so I'm out of date with how this works).

If someone else is able to add a screenshot from satellite imagery, the location is behind (directly to the east of) stands A33 and A34 and heading away from the terminal towards taxiway Kilo. I'm not familiar with DFW, but if I'm reading the taxi diagram correctly, I think aircraft was turning left onto taxiway Echo Kilo?

It appears to me that the crew was accidentally following the edge line instead of the centreline!

But again, as another member has stated, this is an easy mistake to make when crew is very busy just after starting to taxi. There are multiple lines in this area with at least three centrelines on this taxiway, one for each direction (west-east and east-west) and a middle line between the two, I guess for aircraft with large wing spans?.

Centrelines are yellow and edge lines are double white which are both correct. However, surely the area outside the taxiway / beyond the double white, would need to be hatched or colored differently to delineate the taxiway more clearly and avoid this happening again? It would be an expensive fix as the airport is very large however when compared to the cost of damage repair to one or more aircraft, maybe taxiway markings will need to be improved.


The edgelines are not double white - they are solid yellow as well which I why I suspect that was the cause of the incident. They should have been using spot 22 to exit the ramp.

Link to the location: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=32.90172 ... 9&z=17&t=h
 
bigb
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:15 am

Shakinthefat wrote:
ba9216c wrote:
We shouldn't really criticise here. It is a busy time for flight crew. They've only just left the terminal, they've only just started the engines, they'll be busy doing after start check list and setting the aircraft up ready to fly. It is a busy time with lots of distractions and can happen to any professional.

Most airlines FOM’s discuss distractions especially in the ramp area while taxiing. Checklist and starting engines should be delayed till clear of ramp. Professional Crew had an unprofessional moment.


I believe you meant that engine start and checklists before taxiing/leaving the ramp so that both pilots are heads up.
 
User avatar
FlyingJhawk
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tcfc424 wrote:
It's an avoidable incident for sure, however if you look at those same edge markings by C, they don't dip into the ramp area as deeply, and it seems more clear (to me-completely untrained) that those are edge markings versus the ones near A that venture "closer" to the actual taxilane markings. If you look at the map of LAX, any area that shouldn't have airplanes on it has the hash marks and green paint. That would be a relatively quick and inexpensive way to reduce the possibility of recurrence?

*edited to add the green paint found at LAX


A *whole lotta* green paint. LAX, SAN, and BUR make pretty liberal use of the green paint.


I was about to respond with this same comment. Of course, it might be a little less effective at night. What time of day did this incident take place?
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8282
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:59 am

Noshow wrote:
This airplane could be a write off with a damage like this.


Noshow wrote:
If the spar is damaged which could very well have happened the damage might be beyond economic repair. I know the damage and repair history of an aircraft that hit a snow wall. Only lightly...


You know, we had a B747-200 run in a light pole several years ago. It got into the spar. The aircraft was scheduled to be parked in about a year. We repaired it. It took a week, but it was repaired and continued to provide service until we parked it.

Raw damage always looks like crap. Until you get in there and cut away the garbage, you don't know what you're looking at.

I have over 30 years in aircraft maintenance and have seen a ridiculous amount of damage to aircraft, and I can't tell from that one picture whether the spar is involved.
 
awthompson
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:00 am

alasizon - When I zoom in I personally see double white, albeit color slightly difficult to discern. I can certainly see them as different from the single yellow centrelines.
 
awthompson
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:04 am

FlyingJhawk - Check out video on internet, it is all over the place. Daylight incident.

Apologies for not being able to use quotes in my last two posts. They're not working for me, throws up a different post than what I've selected. Fault could of course be my browser.

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