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24Whiskey
Posts: 79
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:14 am

bigb wrote:
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Was it those pilots first time at DFW? How do you do that?

This is what Im wondering. Why wouldn't an AA pilot know the field the back of his hand? Unless AA stands for something else.


Not every AA pilot sees DFW on the regular to be familiar depending on their fleet/seat. Just like how DFW guys who aren’t familiar with CLT can kill the ramp flow.


...Or like when Endeavor guys would go to ATL pre-domicile. Hard to believe now but only a few years ago Endeavor might have had one or two departures a day at ATL with crews that hadn’t been there for years.

CLT is a great example and is a nightmare for anyone who doesn’t go there regularly. Especially for anybody non-AA. Complexity coupled with easily frustrated ramp controllers is not a good combo.

The reality is every ramp control has different procedures/phraseology that can add complexity to the operation. DFW is no different and with a real (or imagined) pressure to keep moving and not stop things like this will happen.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1722
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:28 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
DualQual wrote:
In the end the company and the union/pilots will work together to understand what happened and do what needs to be done to make it a safer and better operation because that is in the best interests of both parties.


It'll go something like this:
-Crew will say it is the company's fault
-Company will say it is the crew's fault
-Crew will say they don't get paid enough for the working conditions and the company creates an unsafe working environment by not having a 'Pre-Tiller Turning Checklist'
-Company will round up a team of people from all departments and they will spend the next 6 months discussing how to properly implement a new checklist to address the concerns
-Checklist will be released and everyone will throw a tantrum because they would have done it differently (and it creates extra needless work)
-The number of delays will increase due to time required to comply with 'Pre-Tiller Turning Checklist'
-The folks in corporate will be in a panic due to the increased delays and a new task force with a snazzy name will be created
-After spending 2 months developing a smart sounding name, the new task force will take an additional 12 months to research why the delays are occurring
-They will pinpoint the checklist as being the cause of the delays but will be unable to eliminate it since they received FAA buy-in as it being part of the corrective action for someone mowing down a lightpole
-The checklist will exist forever and be a burden for all because no one wants to deal with the FAA
-Some dork in a cubicle will pat themselves on the back for making aviation better


This would be hilarious if weren't so on point
 
Flaps
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:37 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
hitower3 wrote:
Dear all,

Duct tape jokes aside, what would be the cost to repair such a damage?


$ 200 to $ 500K, at least? Plus the lightbulbs of the pole that have gone busted?


Plus another 1/2 million to a million at least for the investigation, follow up, documentation, reporting, safety bulletins, procedural changes, manual revisions to go with the procedural changes, legal fees, etc, etc, etc......
 
Q
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:52 pm

DFW will have to put T-Bone mark paint white for edge lines. I see another taxiway similar to old white fade paint t bone lines. It should have been painted TBone shape. I'm sure the captain will see TBone white it means edge line he won't go there. It will not be happening last week. But too late. I assumed DFW management fault or forgot to paint TBone white lines!

Q
 
nkops
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:08 pm

alasizon wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
AA has an abundance of aircraft at the moment,


AA certainly does not have an abundance of narrowbodies currently.

awthompson wrote:
I have identified the location on the field but its too complicated to add an image here (I have not posted on this site for a long time and so I'm out of date with how this works).

If someone else is able to add a screenshot from satellite imagery, the location is behind (directly to the east of) stands A33 and A34 and heading away from the terminal towards taxiway Kilo. I'm not familiar with DFW, but if I'm reading the taxi diagram correctly, I think aircraft was turning left onto taxiway Echo Kilo?

It appears to me that the crew was accidentally following the edge line instead of the centreline!

But again, as another member has stated, this is an easy mistake to make when crew is very busy just after starting to taxi. There are multiple lines in this area with at least three centrelines on this taxiway, one for each direction (west-east and east-west) and a middle line between the two, I guess for aircraft with large wing spans?.

Centrelines are yellow and edge lines are double white which are both correct. However, surely the area outside the taxiway / beyond the double white, would need to be hatched or colored differently to delineate the taxiway more clearly and avoid this happening again? It would be an expensive fix as the airport is very large however when compared to the cost of damage repair to one or more aircraft, maybe taxiway markings will need to be improved.


The edgelines are not double white - they are solid yellow as well which I why I suspect that was the cause of the incident. They should have been using spot 22 to exit the ramp.

Link to the location: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=32.90172 ... 9&z=17&t=h


Taxiway edge lines should be double yellow lines outlined in black paint while the centerline is a single yellow line outlined in black paint.. that's what it looks like on the google map
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
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spinotter
Posts: 871
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:18 pm

dennypayne wrote:
ZazuPIT wrote:
Quite obvious the plane was not following the line.


Actually, I'd say it was obvious that they were following the WRONG line, looking at the satellite view. Which makes me wonder why that line isn't painted in an obviously different color so as not to be mistaken for the centerline. Make it blue to correspond to taxiway edge lighting.


For someone like me who knows nothing about runway and taxiway markings, I would have thought that centerlines and edgelines would obviously be painted in different colors. Are they really all the same color? If so, why? On the Google photos some of the lines looked dark, even black. Are they all white?
 
nkops
Posts: 2275
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:32 pm

spinotter wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
ZazuPIT wrote:
Quite obvious the plane was not following the line.


Actually, I'd say it was obvious that they were following the WRONG line, looking at the satellite view. Which makes me wonder why that line isn't painted in an obviously different color so as not to be mistaken for the centerline. Make it blue to correspond to taxiway edge lighting.


For someone like me who knows nothing about runway and taxiway markings, I would have thought that centerlines and edgelines would obviously be painted in different colors. Are they really all the same color? If so, why? On the Google photos some of the lines looked dark, even black. Are they all white?


FAA AC 150/5340-1M states

Color.
Both taxiway edge marking schemes are yellow. If black borders are necessary, the
black borders on the outside of the marking can be 6 inches (15 cm) in width and never
use glass beads. See paragraph 1.4 and Table 1-1 for recommended techniques to
enhance this marking.

The FAA advisory circular has both edge markings and centerline markings as yellow.. edge being double striped. The reason you may see color variance might simply be from fading . I know here in Florida in the heat, paint tends to fade fast on asphalt
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
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spinotter
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:43 pm

nkops wrote:
spinotter wrote:
dennypayne wrote:

Actually, I'd say it was obvious that they were following the WRONG line, looking at the satellite view. Which makes me wonder why that line isn't painted in an obviously different color so as not to be mistaken for the centerline. Make it blue to correspond to taxiway edge lighting.


For someone like me who knows nothing about runway and taxiway markings, I would have thought that centerlines and edgelines would obviously be painted in different colors. Are they really all the same color? If so, why? On the Google photos some of the lines looked dark, even black. Are they all white?


FAA AC 150/5340-1M states

Color.
Both taxiway edge marking schemes are yellow. If black borders are necessary, the
black borders on the outside of the marking can be 6 inches (15 cm) in width and never
use glass beads. See paragraph 1.4 and Table 1-1 for recommended techniques to
enhance this marking.

The FAA advisory circular has both edge markings and centerline markings as yellow.. edge being double striped. The reason you may see color variance might simply be from fading . I know here in Florida in the heat, paint tends to fade fast on asphalt


So in this case did the pilot follow a double-striped edge marking rather than a single centerline? It seems as if that would be an obvious error to avoid. Again, pardon my ignorance and I am certainly not trying to blame anyone, just want to understand.
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
tcfc424 wrote:
It's an avoidable incident for sure, however if you look at those same edge markings by C, they don't dip into the ramp area as deeply, and it seems more clear (to me-completely untrained) that those are edge markings versus the ones near A that venture "closer" to the actual taxilane markings. If you look at the map of LAX, any area that shouldn't have airplanes on it has the hash marks and green paint. That would be a relatively quick and inexpensive way to reduce the possibility of recurrence?

*edited to add the green paint found at LAX


A *whole lotta* green paint. LAX, SAN, and BUR make pretty liberal use of the green paint.


Green Paint, Red Paint or Heck Pink and Purple Plaid to just make it look like somewhere not to be. Often wondered why some airports don't follow the lead of Southern California Airports (LA Metro)
TWA, Ozark, Braniff, Piedmont, USAir, American, Delta, Frontier, Midwest Express, Western, Eastern, Southwest, Northwest, PanAm, United, Mississippi Valley, Britt, Continental, Trans America, Midway, America West, National, American Trans Air, Sun Country
 
nkops
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:38 pm

spinotter wrote:
nkops wrote:
spinotter wrote:

For someone like me who knows nothing about runway and taxiway markings, I would have thought that centerlines and edgelines would obviously be painted in different colors. Are they really all the same color? If so, why? On the Google photos some of the lines looked dark, even black. Are they all white?


FAA AC 150/5340-1M states

Color.
Both taxiway edge marking schemes are yellow. If black borders are necessary, the
black borders on the outside of the marking can be 6 inches (15 cm) in width and never
use glass beads. See paragraph 1.4 and Table 1-1 for recommended techniques to
enhance this marking.

The FAA advisory circular has both edge markings and centerline markings as yellow.. edge being double striped. The reason you may see color variance might simply be from fading . I know here in Florida in the heat, paint tends to fade fast on asphalt


So in this case did the pilot follow a double-striped edge marking rather than a single centerline? It seems as if that would be an obvious error to avoid. Again, pardon my ignorance and I am certainly not trying to blame anyone, just want to understand.


I would guess that is what happened.. looking at the google map it appears to be painted correctly (although I don't know the date on the map)
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:40 pm

jscottwomack wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
tcfc424 wrote:
It's an avoidable incident for sure, however if you look at those same edge markings by C, they don't dip into the ramp area as deeply, and it seems more clear (to me-completely untrained) that those are edge markings versus the ones near A that venture "closer" to the actual taxilane markings. If you look at the map of LAX, any area that shouldn't have airplanes on it has the hash marks and green paint. That would be a relatively quick and inexpensive way to reduce the possibility of recurrence?

*edited to add the green paint found at LAX


A *whole lotta* green paint. LAX, SAN, and BUR make pretty liberal use of the green paint.


Green Paint, Red Paint or Heck Pink and Purple Plaid to just make it look like somewhere not to be. Often wondered why some airports don't follow the lead of Southern California Airports (LA Metro)


Looking at LGB is interesting - they used the green to keep people from using all the little bits of older taxiway/runway pavement that have been closed.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Long+ ... 18.1513589
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19927
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:53 pm

777luver wrote:
As usual some posters are criticizing the pilots without knowing any of the circumstances.

Yeah let's be arm chair pilots. We know exactly what happened. We're professionals. *sarcasm


Don't need to be a professional pilot to know...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADBjuYJZM8c
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:42 pm

I just looked at the satellite image and that line was really unclear. They should have at least put it in a different color and put stripes inside.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 26287
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:31 pm

awthompson wrote:
I have identified the location on the field but its too complicated to add an image here (I have not posted on this site for a long time and so I'm out of date with how this works).

If someone else is able to add a screenshot from satellite imagery, the location is behind (directly to the east of) stands A33 and A34 and heading away from the terminal towards taxiway Kilo. I'm not familiar with DFW, but if I'm reading the taxi diagram correctly, I think aircraft was turning left onto taxiway Echo Kilo?

A.net does not let you upload stuff like this. IMO the best thing to do is use another site such as Google Maps to generate a link, then share that link. Go to https://maps.google.com/, navigate to where you want to be, switch to satellite mode, then use the panel on the left to Share, then Copy Link, then paste it here.

The link I get is:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZBJvuvE4mRFyuK1G6

Complete with aircraft taxing down the EK taxiway, and a long shadow from the now-knocked-down lamp post.

EDIT: I see someone else posted a similar link, great minds think alike! :biggrin:

miegapele wrote:
Those poorly trained 150 hour pilots again. This would have never happened in the US. Oh wait... I mean incidents happen, there is no need to blame anyone, we need to learn from the mistakes.

Right, as if this thread is free of blaming... Nice straw man argument...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
UA444
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:09 pm

alasizon wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
AA has an abundance of aircraft at the moment,


AA certainly does not have an abundance of narrowbodies currently.

awthompson wrote:
I have identified the location on the field but its too complicated to add an image here (I have not posted on this site for a long time and so I'm out of date with how this works).

If someone else is able to add a screenshot from satellite imagery, the location is behind (directly to the east of) stands A33 and A34 and heading away from the terminal towards taxiway Kilo. I'm not familiar with DFW, but if I'm reading the taxi diagram correctly, I think aircraft was turning left onto taxiway Echo Kilo?

It appears to me that the crew was accidentally following the edge line instead of the centreline!

But again, as another member has stated, this is an easy mistake to make when crew is very busy just after starting to taxi. There are multiple lines in this area with at least three centrelines on this taxiway, one for each direction (west-east and east-west) and a middle line between the two, I guess for aircraft with large wing spans?.

Centrelines are yellow and edge lines are double white which are both correct. However, surely the area outside the taxiway / beyond the double white, would need to be hatched or colored differently to delineate the taxiway more clearly and avoid this happening again? It would be an expensive fix as the airport is very large however when compared to the cost of damage repair to one or more aircraft, maybe taxiway markings will need to be improved.


The edgelines are not double white - they are solid yellow as well which I why I suspect that was the cause of the incident. They should have been using spot 22 to exit the ramp.

Link to the location: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=32.90172 ... 9&z=17&t=h

Don’t they have several of the older 738s they “retired”? And then there are the Mad Dogs...
 
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william
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:41 pm

Pilots in this thread, isn't possible the ground crew aligned the aircraft with wrong line ? Don't see a pilot moving from the correct line around the terminal to the edge line. So the gate must have been in that area and the aircraft was pushed back and brought near that edge line.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352
 
cschleic
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:09 pm

william wrote:
Pilots in this thread, isn't possible the ground crew aligned the aircraft with wrong line ? Don't see a pilot moving from the correct line around the terminal to the edge line. So the gate must have been in that area and the aircraft was pushed back and brought near that edge line.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 97.0403352


Fair question although planes aren't always specifically towed to a taxi line, are they? Perhaps depends on the airport. That's a pretty tight area where this occurred and a lot of lines on the ground. Will be interesting to read the final summary, maybe a combination of factors.
 
dopplerd
Posts: 127
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:08 pm

spinotter wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
ZazuPIT wrote:
Quite obvious the plane was not following the line.


Actually, I'd say it was obvious that they were following the WRONG line, looking at the satellite view. Which makes me wonder why that line isn't painted in an obviously different color so as not to be mistaken for the centerline. Make it blue to correspond to taxiway edge lighting.


For someone like me who knows nothing about runway and taxiway markings, I would have thought that centerlines and edgelines would obviously be painted in different colors. Are they really all the same color? If so, why? On the Google photos some of the lines looked dark, even black. Are they all white?


The standard is that yellow=taxiway and white=runway. The idea is that in low visibility situations the color of the paint will immediately indicate runway vs. taxiway. Within taxiways there are a bunch of different ways that yellow paint is used to indicate what the line is. In this case the distinction is double line vs single. Taxi edge markings are double. Center line are single. Both have a black edge to increase contrast. These are standards across all airports to reduce confusion. It obviously doesn't eliminate it.

The line appearing as white or black on Google maps is likely just due to low resolution of the image. It is certainly a yellow line outlined in black.

After pushback I always make a quick assessment of where I was pushed to and make certain I'm where I expect to be. Ramp crews are underpaid, overwork and always in a hurry which is a recipe for mistakes. If they pushback into a pole that's on them. If I taxi the plane into a pole because I was pushed into a taxiway edge markings that's on me.
 
kiowa
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:17 pm

DualQual wrote:
A couple of things that need to be addressed since everyone is a great Monday Morning QB.

No the crew will not get fired. People make mistakes. As with every single investigation after any kind of incident the investigators will be trying to determine why the mistake was made and understand ALL the factors that played into it. Short of this crew being known bad actors or deliberately negligent in this instance they’ll get some re-training and released back to the line.

As for what ALL the factors could be things that will be looked at:
1) New Captain? New F/O? Both newer to seat/fleet?
2) Weather factors (yes it looks like it was clear but could sun glare have been a problem?)
3) Airport layout? No one is suggesting gut DFW but could that have played a factor and by how much?
4) AA’s taxi procedures. What tasks do the crew have to accomplish and when on taxi?

Unfortunately for these two pilots they had a proverbial brain fart at the exact wrong time. The safety investigation will get to the bottom of why. It’s not far fetched to assume a scenario of crew was verifying something in the FMC as part of a checklist and both accidentally ended up heads down during a turn, got disoriented when looking up back outside and got on the wrong line. Or both were clearing for traffic during the turn and again, got disoriented looking back to the direction of the turn and got on the wrong line. Maybe the Captain was new to the seat and hadn’t been to DFW in years because they were a JFK based widebody FO. That happens. In the end the company and the union/pilots will work together to understand what happened and do what needs to be done to make it a safer and better operation because that is in the best interests of both parties.


That may be the case but not for sure. If one of the pilots has had other issues in the past or is a problem child in general, he/she could be fired. They could be on a "last chance" status and few people would know. I knew several Air Force pilots who lost their flying status from multiple screw-ups.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 7777
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:21 pm

kiowa wrote:
DualQual wrote:
A couple of things that need to be addressed since everyone is a great Monday Morning QB.

No the crew will not get fired. People make mistakes. As with every single investigation after any kind of incident the investigators will be trying to determine why the mistake was made and understand ALL the factors that played into it. Short of this crew being known bad actors or deliberately negligent in this instance they’ll get some re-training and released back to the line.

As for what ALL the factors could be things that will be looked at:
1) New Captain? New F/O? Both newer to seat/fleet?
2) Weather factors (yes it looks like it was clear but could sun glare have been a problem?)
3) Airport layout? No one is suggesting gut DFW but could that have played a factor and by how much?
4) AA’s taxi procedures. What tasks do the crew have to accomplish and when on taxi?

Unfortunately for these two pilots they had a proverbial brain fart at the exact wrong time. The safety investigation will get to the bottom of why. It’s not far fetched to assume a scenario of crew was verifying something in the FMC as part of a checklist and both accidentally ended up heads down during a turn, got disoriented when looking up back outside and got on the wrong line. Or both were clearing for traffic during the turn and again, got disoriented looking back to the direction of the turn and got on the wrong line. Maybe the Captain was new to the seat and hadn’t been to DFW in years because they were a JFK based widebody FO. That happens. In the end the company and the union/pilots will work together to understand what happened and do what needs to be done to make it a safer and better operation because that is in the best interests of both parties.


That may be the case but not for sure. If one of the pilots has had other issues in the past or is a problem child in general, he/she could be fired. They could be on a "last chance" status and few people would know. I knew several Air Force pilots who lost their flying status from multiple screw-ups.


Having been involved in 3 FEBs, in nearly every capacity available, it doesn’t take multiple “screw ups”. One can do, if it’s a doozy.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 14971
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Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:21 pm

dopplerd wrote:
After pushback I always make a quick assessment of where I was pushed to and make certain I'm where I expect to be. Ramp crews are underpaid, overwork and always in a hurry which is a recipe for mistakes. If they pushback into a pole that's on them. If I taxi the plane into a pole because I was pushed into a taxiway edge markings that's on me.


From a management perspective, this is the ticket right here.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
744lover
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2000 5:29 am

Re: Ouch—AA at DFW hits light pole

Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:13 am

Everything can be fixed if you have the time and the money.

Lufthansa had a runway excursion in the old Kai Tak airport when D-ABYU was only 2 years old.


Further images can be found on this link http://www.jh-reisen.de/Fotos/Homepage%20Lufthansa/lufthansa-unfaelle.htm

It was then assessed that it would be more cost-effective to buy a new frame but delivery time was so much in the future that LH decided to fix it themselves. The repair was so well made that the plane continued flying for the next 30+ years, albeit with a higher DOW than the other pure-freighter planes.


BR,
744lover

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