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DCA350
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New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:15 am

https://simpleflying.com/hi-fly-a330-wing-tip-trial/

Can anybody shed light on this.. This is the first I've heard of a new wingtip for A330s. A 2% reduction in fuel consumption is nothing to sneeze at. “A flight from Frankfurt to Hong Kong, for example, would save at least 1.2 tons of fuel. If the specs pan out, I could see this program being very successful.. The fallout of the Pandemic will probably cause a lot of airlines to consider keeping fleets a little longer to reduce CapEx.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:47 am

Presumably aimed at ceos - looks spectacular! There might be interest for freighter conversions, where a ton of fuel saved adds up to a ton of additional cargo.
 
Noshow
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:48 am

Two percent improvement is fantastic. That is versus the old A330-winglets?
 
Babyshark
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:01 pm

Is this real? It’s a simple flying article.
 
KFTG
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:03 pm

Well those are hideous.
 
tommy1808
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:09 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Is this real? It’s a simple flying article.


It would appear that way.... although they didn´t make much of the required accounting data public in a long time...

https://the-apc.eu/trinitair

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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JannEejit
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:19 pm

"Designed from a sketch on a napkin..." Let's hope it's not the same napkin Spinal Tap used for the Stonehenge set.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:46 pm

Interesting. That reminds me, did anything come of that A380 winglet that sort of resembled the MD-11's?
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Rifitto
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:13 pm

APC company CEO : we need to design a new wingtip to improve fuel brun
His 5 years old kid : Say no more
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:17 pm

Wow, those are hideous. Move over 737MAX, there is a new champion of ugly wingtips in town...
 
744SPX
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:19 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Wow, those are hideous. Move over 737MAX, there is a new champion of ugly wingtips in town...


Truer words were never spoken.
 
Lukas757
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:21 pm

From the PDF: „Managing Director: Harald Zirngibl“

A famous German bank robber.
 
tommy1808
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:22 pm

744SPX wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Wow, those are hideous. Move over 737MAX, there is a new champion of ugly wingtips in town...


Truer words were never spoken.


you guys just offended a lot of birds having wingtips like that... :biggrin:

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:53 pm

China attempted this in the past:

Image

http://www.an2flyers.org/chinese.html
 
A388
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:12 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Is this real? It’s a simple flying article.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I was wondering the same thing.

A388
 
Noshow
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:27 pm

Looks lightweight and smart to me. Some winglets have become big like surfboards and complex with a lot of parts and installations.
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:32 pm

Noshow wrote:
Looks lightweight and smart to me. Some winglets have become big like surfboards and complex with a lot of parts and installations.


I can't possibly believe that this contraption is less complex and has fewer parts than any other type of winglet...
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:35 pm

Wingwalkers are gonna have a field day...
 
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Revelation
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:35 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Wow, those are hideous. Move over 737MAX, there is a new champion of ugly wingtips in town...

Poor HiFly, first the money losing A380 gambit, now the "three finger" wingtips.

Oh well, at least SimplyFlying got a lot of clicks for a pile of nonsense, all is right with the world!
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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PHLspecial
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:40 pm

Soon enough planes will have the areo devices that F1 cars have.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:58 pm

Couldn't Airbus simply retrofit the A330N's wingtips on those...might be a cheaper structural surgery.....?

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:49 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Couldn't Airbus simply retrofit the A330N's wingtips on those...might be a cheaper structural surgery.....?

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0


This isn't an Airbus solution. It is from a company called The Aircraft Performance Company.

Further, you don't "just" fit the NEO winglet on a CEO. Asides from the strengthening required, part of the A330neo development was the aerodynamically retwisted and optimised wing. The winglet probably doesn't even fit on an old A330 wing.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:17 pm

KFTG wrote:
Well those are hideous.

Who cares if they are hideous or not? 2% in fuel reduction is a lot, aviation is spending hundred of millions for that much.

I think they look better than the split scimitar on the 737NG.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:20 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
744SPX wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Wow, those are hideous. Move over 737MAX, there is a new champion of ugly wingtips in town...


Truer words were never spoken.


you guys just offended a lot of birds having wingtips like that... :biggrin:

best regards
Thomas

Indeed. And if nature did it that way, there is a reason; Mother Nature knows best.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:53 pm

It looks like the feather wing tips of a bird. I don't think it's that surprising it's an efficient design.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:41 pm

These "feather" wingtips have been tried in the past. I think the idea is to optimally align each wing-like element with the local airflow at the wingtip to achieve an aerodynamically optimal solution. I'm not sure what the issues have been in the past but I can imagine that 1) manufacturing has been difficult in the past and now that we have computerized machining and 3D printing, it might be easier to execute and 2) behavior in non-cruise attitudes (rotation, landing) might be a challenge as well. I can see challenges with flutter and shockwave formation arising with multiple wing-like elements at different angles.

But if they can achieve a 2% reduction in fuel consumption over existing designs, that would be a major improvement.

As for looks, the only feature that is ever found on the outside of an airplane that is for appearances is the paint scheme (and even the paint itself serves a functional role). Every other element of an airplane's exterior is designed with function in mind.
-Doc Lightning-

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JerseyFlyer
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:53 pm

DocLightning wrote:
These "feather" wingtips have been tried in the past. I think the idea is to optimally align each wing-like element with the local airflow at the wingtip to achieve an aerodynamically optimal solution. I'm not sure what the issues have been in the past but I can imagine that 1) manufacturing has been difficult in the past and now that we have computerized machining and 3D printing, it might be easier to execute and 2) behavior in non-cruise attitudes (rotation, landing) might be a challenge as well. I can see challenges with flutter and shockwave formation arising with multiple wing-like elements at different angles.

But if they can achieve a 2% reduction in fuel consumption over existing designs, that would be a major improvement.

As for looks, the only feature that is ever found on the outside of an airplane that is for appearances is the paint scheme (and even the paint itself serves a functional role). Every other element of an airplane's exterior is designed with function in mind.


Is it likely that HiFly will be trialling these in pax operations, or perhaps lending a frame to Airbus for a more systematic approach to testing?
 
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ER757
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:54 pm

KFTG wrote:
Well those are hideous.

Anything that adds variety while spotting is fine by me :smile:
 
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Polot
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:57 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
These "feather" wingtips have been tried in the past. I think the idea is to optimally align each wing-like element with the local airflow at the wingtip to achieve an aerodynamically optimal solution. I'm not sure what the issues have been in the past but I can imagine that 1) manufacturing has been difficult in the past and now that we have computerized machining and 3D printing, it might be easier to execute and 2) behavior in non-cruise attitudes (rotation, landing) might be a challenge as well. I can see challenges with flutter and shockwave formation arising with multiple wing-like elements at different angles.

But if they can achieve a 2% reduction in fuel consumption over existing designs, that would be a major improvement.

As for looks, the only feature that is ever found on the outside of an airplane that is for appearances is the paint scheme (and even the paint itself serves a functional role). Every other element of an airplane's exterior is designed with function in mind.


Is it likely that HiFly will be trialling these in pax operations, or perhaps lending a frame to Airbus for a more systematic approach to testing?

It would be lending a frame to the winglet company for testing/certification in exchange for PR and discount if product works/certified. HiFly can’t use uncertified winglets in commercial service.
 
Noshow
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:02 pm

How much is Airbus involved? There should be other modifications needed like FMS performance data updates and structural verification in the full flight spectrum, possibly weather with icing and lightning and such. Something beyond what some airline can do. However Hi Fly has a record of working pretty close with Airbus.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:36 pm

Paint it yellow and you have a tweety bird.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:07 am

Those look good on a bird, not a plane!
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:15 am

DocLightning wrote:
Every other element of an airplane's exterior is designed with function in mind.


That's just as well, otherwise there'd be huge question marks over the A380 and Short Skyvan. On the other hand, Concorde, 747 and A340 designers would be on top of the world!
 
sUAisDL
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:20 am

ER757 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Well those are hideous.

Anything that adds variety while spotting is fine by me :smile:


Amen to that. In a decade we will have very little variety as it is.
 
CRJ 900
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:52 am

Those are the ugliest things i've ever seen. Don't ruin that beautiful airplane with those.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:42 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Is it likely that HiFly will be trialling these in pax operations


My understanding is that if you are flying paying passengers, then the aircraft and everything on it must be fully certified within the jurisdiction within which it is flying. Otherwise, those are test pilots flying test passengers.

HiFly will, after conducting wind tunnel tests, need to test these on test aircraft first. Once they have EASA and FAA certification, then they can fly passengers.
-Doc Lightning-

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gatibosgru
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:55 am

ER757 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Well those are hideous.

Anything that adds variety while spotting is fine by me :smile:


Agreed! I actually think it'll look pretty cool on air with a good wing flex.
@DadCelo
 
ewt340
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:49 am

At least it would look cooler.
 
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redcap1962
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:18 am

This aircraft just likes beer very much! It wants to order three at once, MAX was satisfied with two. The others always get just one & will get jealous over time... :mrgreen:

https://cgxev.artstation.com/projects/Jm0Q0
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VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:26 am

DocLightning wrote:
Once they have EASA and FAA certification, then they can fly passengers.


Pretty sure they only need EASA.


redcap1962 wrote:
This aircraft just likes beer very much! It wants to order three at once, MAX was satisfied with two. The others always get just one & will get jealous over time... :mrgreen:

https://cgxev.artstation.com/projects/Jm0Q0


You mean 6 beers? 3 on each wing ;) Aircraft is obviously a drunk, who else would order 3 liters of beer!
 
A330Inter
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:21 am

CRJ 900 wrote:
Those are the ugliest things i've ever seen. Don't ruin that beautiful airplane with those.


+1, it's ugly!
But if it's efficient then why not, It will be implemented on other aircraft type in the future
 
Noshow
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:37 am

Two percent improvement is massive. Hope it works out this way.
 
Opus99
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:43 am

I can see why you guys hate it. But 2%? Sign me up. That’s huge. If I were Airbus I will take that for a relatively unattractive wingtip. It looks futuristic I guess
 
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Faro
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:14 am

First of all, the airline is aiming to reduce fuel consumption by "up to 2%", not 2%...so God knows what that means...

Second, this claim is emanating from a Portuguese charter airline, not Airbus itself...

Third, this quaint excerpt from the article: "up to 40% of the total air resistance on a plane in cruise is a result of drag" :roll: :roll: ...

A 2% fuel saving is HUGE...I very much doubt this claim is based on sound and proven technical testing or other objective criteria...

But the idea is perhaps not inconceivable...and would make for a nice-looking bird...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
rj777
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:53 pm

How long are those things? Will they cause a problem with gate compatibility?
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:19 pm

rj777 wrote:
How long are those things? Will they cause a problem with gate compatibility?


If anything, these should actually be shorter than the blended/scimitar solutions like the A330neo.
 
FSflyer899
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:25 pm

 
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TWA302
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:45 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
Those look good on a bird, not a plane!


Birds mastered aerodynamic efficiency millions of years ago. Why not replicate what has worked? :stirthepot:

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/71606/are-there-advantages-to-slotted-wingtips

Image
 
VSMUT
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:05 pm

TWA302 wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
Those look good on a bird, not a plane!


Birds mastered aerodynamic efficiency millions of years ago. Why not replicate what has worked? :stirthepot:


Because aircraft are not birds. Aircraft wings are different and aircraft land differently.

I would also point out that the albatross, a bird developed to cruise for long stretches, has different and more airliner-esque wingtips:

Image

Image

https://what-if.xkcd.com/149/
 
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TWA302
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Re: New A330 Wingtips?

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:54 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
Those look good on a bird, not a plane!


Birds mastered aerodynamic efficiency millions of years ago. Why not replicate what has worked? :stirthepot:


Because aircraft are not birds. Aircraft wings are different and aircraft land differently.

I would also point out that the albatross, a bird developed to cruise for long stretches, has different and more airliner-esque wingtips:

Image

Image

https://what-if.xkcd.com/149/


But engineers have used birds to help with design efficiencies. Ask Airbus :-)

Image
https://flyhigh.news/an-airbus-innovation-bird-of-prey-inspired-by-nature/?cn-reloaded=1

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