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tommy1808
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:13 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So a team of 140 employees can design, build and certify a supersonic jetliner within eight years until EIS? Dream on. That must be a joke.

Even if these 140 people are the R&D engineers only, how many R&D engineers work on relatively simple B737 or A320?

At the Volkswagen R&D at Wolfsburg there work over 10.000 people. And they design simple cars and not cutting edge supersonic jetliners.

You say that as if they just started. They've been working on this for 7 years already. .


Even hyperloop TT has more to show, is just as old and says the have 800 people working on it. And I'd still be surprised if anyone can buy tickets for their product by 2029.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
edu2703
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:28 pm

I think it's wrong to call 'anti-innovation' someone who prefers to have a more realistic view of this project.

Honestly, if this project came from Boeing, Airbus or even Embraer, many people, including me, would have a little more faith in it. But it comes from a company that has about 140 employees, has never produced a single aircraft and has no production line.

The development of a commercial supersonic aircraft is expensive, time-consuming and requires a high level of expertise from designers and engineers. It's difficult even for well-established aircraft manufacturers, now imagine for a 'small' company that has never produced a single aircraft. Roll-out in 2025, first flight in 2026 and EIS in 2019 are goals as realistic as the existence of Santa Claus.

You are free to believe in fairy tales like this aircraft and get emotionally involved with it. But be prepared to be disappointed when the company shuts down or delays those goals indefinitely.

This is not pessimism. It's simply reality. I would be happy if I were totally wrong and Boom met those goals, but I know they won't.
 
Noshow
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:36 pm

What engine is the boom airliner based on?
 
CMHARJ
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Re: Big United Announcement Coming Up?

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:41 pm

CaptainLeo wrote:
You heard it here first. DL+UA to compete with AA+B6+AS partnership. Many signs pointing to it. DL closed/downsized crew bases in UA strongholds. Both airlines offloaded staff and airplanes and are down about 30% from pre-covid levels. So while this may be a “rebranding” I have a feeling it’ll come with a widget on the tail.

That will NEVER happen. Way too much overlap in flights. Hubs in BOS, JFK, LGA, EWR, IAD, ATL, DTW, ORD, MSP, IAH, DEN, SLC, SEA, SFO, and LAX. Which hubs would see the slaughter house? Or should I say in political correct terms, "All jobs/hubs are safe, we're just "right-sizing" each hub."
 
Judge1310
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:42 pm

aden23 wrote:
It’s Q2 2021 and United still serves microwaved cheese sandwiches for the “meal” in First Class on international flights.

We’re supposed to believe they’ll somehow manifest a world class experience within 8 years?

LOL.


Umm, have you actually flown in Polaris Class on an international flight recently? It's a full hot meal service (with options).
Some of these a.netters....sheesh!! :roll:
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:43 pm

Noshow wrote:
What engine is the boom airliner based on?


I think the Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4.

;)

In actual fact, there appears to be no engine - the Wikipedia says that in July 2020 they made an agreement to collaborate with Rolls-Royce on engine development. It's all a bit wishy-washy.

Perhaps they are trying to get these commitments to show there is airline interest so they can get companies like Rolls to actually develop something for them. No engine, no aeroplane!
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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Revelation
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:00 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
MaxTrimm wrote:
United got in first

Second.

JAL and Boom announced a partnership in 2017.


Fourth, perhaps.

In March 2016, Richard Branson confirmed that Virgin Group holds options for 10 aircraft and Virgin Galactic's subsidiary The Spaceship Company will aid in manufacturing and testing the jet.[9] An unnamed European carrier also holds options for 15 aircraft; the two deals total 5 billion dollars.[10] At the 2017 Paris Air Show, 51 commitments were added for a backlog of 76 with significant deposits.[8] In December 2017, Japan Airlines was confirmed to have pre-ordered up to 20 jets among the commitments to 76 from five airlines.[3]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_Overture

1) VS
2) Unnamed EU carrier
3) JAL
4) UA

And we also had the US DoD expressing interest, who knows where that ended up.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:02 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Noshow wrote:
What engine is the boom airliner based on?


I think the Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4.

;)

In actual fact, there appears to be no engine - the Wikipedia says that in July 2020 they made an agreement to collaborate with Rolls-Royce on engine development. It's all a bit wishy-washy.

Perhaps they are trying to get these commitments to show there is airline interest so they can get companies like Rolls to actually develop something for them. No engine, no aeroplane!


Is the engine Aerion was apparently linked with at all suitable for high speed flight, could it be adapted?

IIRC the Aerion plane was just barely faster than M1.0.
 
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Revelation
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:28 pm

VC10er wrote:
And UNITED (of all airlines) is First (in the USA or Europe) and this PR will have a very positive halo on the United brand moving forward.

I think the exact opposite, this will have a very negative PR impact on UA if this comes close to fruition.

edu2703 wrote:
The development of a commercial supersonic aircraft is expensive, time-consuming and requires a high level of expertise from designers and engineers. It's difficult even for well-established aircraft manufacturers, now imagine for a 'small' company that has never produced a single aircraft. Roll-out in 2025, first flight in 2026 and EIS in 2019 are goals as realistic as the existence of Santa Claus.

Indeed. Look at all the trials and tribulations at BBD, with the result the sale of C-Series for $1 and an exit from the airliner business even having the experience of the earlier CRJ family in its past, not to mention all the money Mitsu burned through due to not being able to translate their auto maker skills to the aviation world.

Depending on an engine that doesn't even exist now for first flight in 2026 and EIS in 2029 is not credible, especially given the most likely engine partner is RR.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
al320
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:29 pm

I'm no CEO but wouldn't it have been smarter to spin off Polaris as a subsidiary and launch the BOOM jets under this brand. Providing minimal damage to UNITED's image, should BOOM not be able to deliver or go under.
 
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Aesma
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:29 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I don't think a single one of these will end up in United. If any of them are certified.

The contract is full of requirements and loopholes, very easy for United to get out of.

The timeline is way too aggressive. 2025 for rollout, 2026 for first flight and 2029 for carrying passengers.


They have been working on it for years. The problem is they need money, like all start-ups. Will such "order" bring enough money in to fund the billions needed to make the plane happen ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
IFlyOff
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:43 pm

What's with these innovators? I remember some guy named Steve Jobs. Had some sort of machine with a TV screen with silicon chips and programs. Wanted me to invest in his vision. I'm no sucker. And then someone told me we would move away from wired telephones. I bet a lot of people lost money on those ideas.

Dream big, folks. Life is too short.
 
travaz
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:49 pm

From an article on United orders:
"Most purchase contracts don’t take much money to maintain the position and real money only has to be spent when the plane is actually ready, said Adam Pilarski, an aviation consultant with Virginia-based Avitas. So far, the commercial version of the plane has not been built, or certified by the Federal Aviation Administration. "

“It’s a low-cost, feel-good, positive step,” Pilarski said. “It shows the public we are in it for the long run.”

Full Article :
https://www.yahoo.com/now/united-airlin ... 13660.html

I don't think UA put up a lot of money.
 
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Revelation
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:58 pm

IFlyOff wrote:
What's with these innovators? I remember some guy named Steve Jobs. Had some sort of machine with a TV screen with silicon chips and programs. Wanted me to invest in his vision. I'm no sucker. And then someone told me we would move away from wired telephones. I bet a lot of people lost money on those ideas.

Dream big, folks. Life is too short.

If only one could manufacture a supersonic airliner in your garage and legally sell it, you might be on to something.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
subramak1
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:25 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The timeline is way too aggressive. 2025 for rollout, 2026 for first flight and 2029 for carrying passengers.

I mean, Concorde did it in 7yrs, and that was with blueprints and slide-rules.

Who's to say modern advances can't shorten that a good bit?

Heck, I'm far more worried about the legislative process: don't have a lot of confidence in a country that can't agree if wearing face-coverings in an airborne pandemic is a good idea; coming to grips with waste-powered supersonic aircraft evolution.



As depressing as your statement is, it is true. We may also have people parking their trucks in runway to prevent these plans from taking off, like how some truck owners parked at supercharging lots.

Subramanian
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:54 pm

IFlyOff wrote:
What's with these innovators? I remember some guy named Steve Jobs. Had some sort of machine with a TV screen with silicon chips and programs. Wanted me to invest in his vision. I'm no sucker. And then someone told me we would move away from wired telephones. I bet a lot of people lost money on those ideas.

Dream big, folks. Life is too short.


Comparing those products to this is a bit disingenuous, no? This idea isn’t really that innovative, it is essentially trying something that has been tried already. This company also obviously has no where near the track record that Apple did.

Not sure why they cleared their Instagram for this….
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:54 pm

subramak1 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The timeline is way too aggressive. 2025 for rollout, 2026 for first flight and 2029 for carrying passengers.

I mean, Concorde did it in 7yrs, and that was with blueprints and slide-rules.

Who's to say modern advances can't shorten that a good bit?

Heck, I'm far more worried about the legislative process: don't have a lot of confidence in a country that can't agree if wearing face-coverings in an airborne pandemic is a good idea; coming to grips with waste-powered supersonic aircraft evolution.



As depressing as your statement is, it is true. We may also have people parking their trucks in runway to prevent these plans from taking off, like how some truck owners parked at supercharging lots.

Subramanian


We could also see the Committee for Greener Foothills coming back to stop it, and won’t someone think of farmers, their cows won’t produce milk because of this plane! :hissyfit:

And will that NY politician who was glad Concorde no longer sonic boomed over NY be happy about this? Or some of the other interesting complaints/complainants? ;)

Anyhow - it’s still very early days and unless a major manufacturer jumps behind this, it could be easily a victim to interest groups and lobbying.

Or a big manufacturer could just buy in and scuttle the whole thing.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
VC10er wrote:
And UNITED (of all airlines) is First (in the USA or Europe) and this PR will have a very positive halo on the United brand moving forward.

I think the exact opposite, this will have a very negative PR impact on UA if this comes close to fruition.

edu2703 wrote:
The development of a commercial supersonic aircraft is expensive, time-consuming and requires a high level of expertise from designers and engineers. It's difficult even for well-established aircraft manufacturers, now imagine for a 'small' company that has never produced a single aircraft. Roll-out in 2025, first flight in 2026 and EIS in 2019 are goals as realistic as the existence of Santa Claus.

Indeed. Look at all the trials and tribulations at BBD, with the result the sale of C-Series for $1 and an exit from the airliner business even having the experience of the earlier CRJ family in its past, not to mention all the money Mitsu burned through due to not being able to translate their auto maker skills to the aviation world.

Depending on an engine that doesn't even exist now for first flight in 2026 and EIS in 2029 is not credible, especially given the most likely engine partner is RR.


By the way, Boom is planning to use the GE J85 engine for their "sub-scale" prototype that is supposed to fly this year. The GE J85 is a 1950's-designed military turbojet that went out of series production in 1988. I suppose Boom will be using salvaged engines from the F-5/T-38 inventories? But the point is that the Boom XB-1 "Baby Boom" will not prove out any of the advanced engine technologies required for their Overture passenger plane.

As for their partnership with Rolls Royce, this is a consulting deal. There has been no commitment from RR to start development of an engine appropriate for Overture. Especially an engine that is supposed to be "efficient and eco-friendly", burning exotic & very expensive bio fuels. What Boom needs to make their ambitious range nut are non-afterburning military engines capable of long-duration, "super cruise" operations. However, these state-of-the-art engines are built with proprietary, classified technologies that current military customers will probably not allow to be used in civilian applications.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:05 pm

If Boom were able to build an ER version eventually, UA could fly EWR-HNL-SYD and other eastern Australian routes with HNL being the ideal tech stop or scissors hub location from the east coast of the US to the east coast of Australia plus New Zealand.

https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... upersonic/

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ewr-syd%0D ... =wls&DU=mi
 
hinckley
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:18 pm

I'm an av geek and tech geek. I'm also a business person who got to fly a BA Concorde long ago. But the days of businesses investing shareholder capital in something "cool" for the sake of "cool" are long over. And even back in the day, those who think that Concorde had a proven business case are marginally correct at best. BA and AF bought the planes for next to nothing. Had they paid a normal price, they would have lost money. And with the advent of the internet (and a work-from-home pandemic), whatever "success" Concorde had then could never be replicated today.

There's another aspect of supersonic flight that's often ignored . . . Between the eastern US and Europe (arguably the largest long-haul route system), today's aircraft fly at the right speed when you take time zones into consideration. I've flown TATL countless times. I would never waste a day in the air taking a daytime flight. I - and most business people - work all day, fly overnight (sleeping in a modern airline's bed), shower on arrival and get to work the next day. If I fly overnight supersonically, I land in London or Paris in the middle of the night. That doesn't work and that's why BA and AF Concorde flights left JFK very early in the morning and arrived in the late afternoon. That was a day of business lost then and it's the same now. It doesn't matter that you were in the air for 3.5 rather than 6.5 hours. Fwiw, when Boeing cancelled the Sonic Cruiser, the conflict of flight times and time zones was one of the reasons they gave. They said flights would either have to leave or arrive at the wrong times and that wouldn't work for premium-paying customers.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:24 pm

Good to see that some people really want to do something to speed up air travel.

Do you remember forty - fifty years ago? I do. The sky was full of DC-8s, DC-9s and Caravelles. Check in 30 minutes before departure, domestic 10 minutes. You got your baggage again as fast as you could run from the gate to baggage claim.

Today everything has become so much slower. Mach 1.7 or Mach 2.2 will help to bring back some of the efficiencies of old days. But is that fast enough? Or will we also need to do something on the ground to make it all worth thinking about?

A lot of brain power has been spent on making us safe and comfortable in the air. Wonder if similar brain power one day will do something similar on the ground. Could someone one day invent a foldable chair made of lightweight carbon fibre, foldable to fit in for instance a phone pocket on your carry-on backpack? That would be something to make air travel more enjoyable again.

Imagine having you own chair to sit on when in the baggage drop queue, when in the security queue, passport queue, and when waiting for your baggage in baggage claim. That would be something !!! That would be something a lot more significant than Mach 2 flight or such. Mach 2 flight would only speed up the ever decreasing part of our travel time actually spent in the air.

Put that chair up for sale at the airport taxfree shops at $999.99.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
TrafficCop
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:34 pm

cpd wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
I mean, Concorde did it in 7yrs, and that was with blueprints and slide-rules.

Who's to say modern advances can't shorten that a good bit?

Heck, I'm far more worried about the legislative process: don't have a lot of confidence in a country that can't agree if wearing face-coverings in an airborne pandemic is a good idea; coming to grips with waste-powered supersonic aircraft evolution.



As depressing as your statement is, it is true. We may also have people parking their trucks in runway to prevent these plans from taking off, like how some truck owners parked at supercharging lots.

Subramanian


We could also see the Committee for Greener Foothills coming back to stop it, and won’t someone think of farmers, their cows won’t produce milk because of this plane! :hissyfit:

And will that NY politician who was glad Concorde no longer sonic boomed over NY be happy about this? Or some of the other interesting complaints/complainants? ;)

Anyhow - it’s still very early days and unless a major manufacturer jumps behind this, it could be easily a victim to interest groups and lobbying.

Or a big manufacturer could just buy in and scuttle the whole thing.


Or a big manufacturer could buy the program and slap a big A or 7 on it!! Can you say A360 or 797!!!
 
DCTenFan
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:48 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know back then for the Concorde, who are the initial airlines who jumped on it? I can only think of BA and AF.


They were the only 2 airlines to ever fly the Concorde
MFD
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:06 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
If Boom were able to build an ER version eventually, UA could fly EWR-HNL-SYD and other eastern Australian routes with HNL being the ideal tech stop or scissors hub location from the east coast of the US to the east coast of Australia plus New Zealand.

https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... upersonic/

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ewr-syd%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


What are you going to do about sonic booms over the US in that scenario?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AMALH747430
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:06 pm

Prost wrote:
If this announcement had been made by SQ, EK, QR et al I believe more people would truly be awed by it.


That’s what’s truly irritating about this forum. If it had been SQ, the ME3, an IAG airline, or the anti-trust love triangle (AA/B6/AS) this forum would be head over heals about how amazing this is. The kool-aid is strong!

This may or may not come to fruition but it shows people are actually thinking about the future. Maybe the Boom Overture doesn’t come out of this in its current form, but maybe the work on it leads to innovations that carry over to something else. Maybe it leads to an even better aircraft. The attitudes on here today are just, WOW! Call it “emotional attachment” or whatever you want to that makes you feel superior but this 37 year old lawyer that has watched the commercial aviation world in the west backslide into complacency thinks this is cool and wishes all parties involved nothing but the best!
 
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HowardDGA
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:13 pm

[quote="TrafficCop"}
Or a big manufacturer could buy the program and slap a big A or 7 on it!! Can you say A360 or 797!!![/quote]

It would be interesting to speculate on who that big manufacturer could be...LockMart...NG...Textron...Spirit...Raytheon...
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
If Boom were able to build an ER version eventually, UA could fly EWR-HNL-SYD and other eastern Australian routes with HNL being the ideal tech stop or scissors hub location from the east coast of the US to the east coast of Australia plus New Zealand.

https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... upersonic/

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ewr-syd%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


What are you going to do about sonic booms over the US in that scenario?


Perhaps you need to read the material on Boom's website. Their whole premise is designing supersonic aircraft that minimize sonic boom and can legally fly over the US and other countries. it's part of the reason they are going for smaller aircraft flying a business class product at prices comparable to conventional subsonic service.
 
MrNuke
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:29 pm

hinckley wrote:
There's another aspect of supersonic flight that's often ignored . . . Between the eastern US and Europe (arguably the largest long-haul route system), today's aircraft fly at the right speed when you take time zones into consideration. I've flown TATL countless times. I would never waste a day in the air taking a daytime flight. I - and most business people - work all day, fly overnight (sleeping in a modern airline's bed), shower on arrival and get to work the next day. If I fly overnight supersonically, I land in London or Paris in the middle of the night. That doesn't work and that's why BA and AF Concorde flights left JFK very early in the morning and arrived in the late afternoon.

One could argue though it works quite well in the opposite direction (one way at least) and that is why BA and AF being European carriers timed their service the way they did. You can leave Europe in the morning and get a full day on the east coast or leave in the evening and arrive in the evening in the U.S.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Perhaps you need to read the material on Boom's website. Their whole premise is designing supersonic aircraft that minimize sonic boom and can legally fly over the US and other countries. it's part of the reason they are going for smaller aircraft flying a business class product at prices comparable to conventional subsonic service.

Boom isn't going to be approved for over land flight and most of the material on their website acknowledges as much. I have no idea what you are seeing that would indicated otherwise. The hypothetical routes are all over-water. United's hypothetical routes mentioned today are all over water.
Last edited by MrNuke on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:37 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
If Boom were able to build an ER version eventually, UA could fly EWR-HNL-SYD and other eastern Australian routes with HNL being the ideal tech stop or scissors hub location from the east coast of the US to the east coast of Australia plus New Zealand.

https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... upersonic/

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ewr-syd%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


What are you going to do about sonic booms over the US in that scenario?


Perhaps you need to read the material on Boom's website. Their whole premise is designing supersonic aircraft that minimize sonic boom and can legally fly over the US and other countries. it's part of the reason they are going for smaller aircraft flying a business class product at prices comparable to conventional subsonic service.


NASA has studied minimization for years and have shaved off a few dB at most. Supersonic overflight of populated areas will not be reapproved.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dopplerd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:38 pm

It seems to me this thing needs another 1000 NM range. SFO-NRT in 4 hours! That's a game changer. As flight distance grows so does the time advantage to supersonic.
 
UA748i
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:40 pm

[
UA857 wrote:
Ordering the 779 as the 777X needs a US Customer?


If that ever happens, itll be AA first, imho.

vfw614 wrote:
Remains the question for which markets. Overland supersonic will still be a no-go, so I can really only see SFO to a few Asian and EWR/IAD to a few European destinations not too far away from the ocean. Does not make much sense to have it flying subsonic for long stretches.

Not wanting to be a party pooper, but remember which airlines all ordered Concordes and how many actually operated it....


I think the research with the X-59 QUESST will be playing a role in the design of Overture. It has to. Large scale SST has a place in the future, and if successful, significant sonic boom noise pollution will be a thing of the past.
 
santi319
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:44 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Prost wrote:
If this announcement had been made by SQ, EK, QR et al I believe more people would truly be awed by it.


That’s what’s truly irritating about this forum. If it had been SQ, the ME3, an IAG airline, or the anti-trust love triangle (AA/B6/AS) this forum would be head over heals about how amazing this is. The kool-aid is strong!!


If it would’ve been B6 the forum would have literally imploded lol.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:48 pm

UA748i wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Ordering the 779 as the 777X needs a US Customer?


If that ever happens, itll be AA first, imho.

vfw614 wrote:
Remains the question for which markets. Overland supersonic will still be a no-go, so I can really only see SFO to a few Asian and EWR/IAD to a few European destinations not too far away from the ocean. Does not make much sense to have it flying subsonic for long stretches.

Not wanting to be a party pooper, but remember which airlines all ordered Concordes and how many actually operated it....


I think the research with the X-59 QUESST will be playing a role in the design of Overture. It has to. Large scale SST has a place in the future, and if successful, significant sonic boom noise pollution will be a thing of the past.
[/quote]

There’s no question that program is key, but lots of hurdles to overcome yet.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MrNuke
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:55 pm

UA748i wrote:
I think the research with the X-59 QUESST will be playing a role in the design of Overture. It has to. Large scale SST has a place in the future, and if successful, significant sonic boom noise pollution will be a thing of the past.

Giving the X-59 testing will be going on during roughly the same time Overature is slated for EIS that seems somewhat unlikely. Boom for now seems to be targeting the over water routes where noise pollution doesn't matter. It will be interesting to see how everything plays out capital wise and X-59 wise for Boom.
 
IFLYUA767
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:11 am

It seems like EWR-LHR is going to be the first route. I wonder if they will fly both the Overture and the 767 or 787 on this route. It seems like they would since the Overture only seats up to 88 and the ticket cost could be a major factor. We shall see.
 
jayunited
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:14 am

32andBelow wrote:
International travel with Tesla starships is more likely


Except it wasn't that long ago that people thought SpaceX was a joke. When SpaceX announced they were developing a Falcon 9 reusable rocket they were practically laughed out of the room no one took them seriously because for years NASA and other space agencies around the world were simply dumping their rockets in the ocean. Then in 2015 SpaceX had some pretty spectacular and public failures that seem to solidify it was impossible to land a rocket on reach and reuse it, that was until 2016 when SpaceX finally pulled off the impossible much to the chagrin of both Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Now here we are today and SpaceX has acheived what many said could never be done thanks to advances in technology and engineering and they have left both Boeing Lockheed Martin behind in the process.

Boom, Rolls Royce and all the companies involved in this project without question have their work cut out for them to make this aircraft a reality. Think about this if SpaceX had listened to its detractors (Boeing, Lockheed and others in the industry) the US would still be dependent on and still paying the Russians to get American astronauts to the International Space Station and back to earth safely.

Right now NASA is working on a X-59 project which is a aircraft designed to operate at supersonic speeds without the sonic boom. A lot has changed since 1965 when the first Concorde prototype was constructed the question is has the technology and engineering progressed to the point where it is economically viable in the commercial aviation industry. We will never know until someone tries and it is obvious neither Boeing or Airbus are interested at this point so it is going to take an outsider like Boom to test the waters just like SpaceX.
 
DDR
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:16 am

This is awesome. Next time there is a pandemic, it can spread twice as fast.

Seriously, it is good to see super Sonic travel coming back. And if UA is being honest about fares, a lot more people will be able to do this than in the past.
 
fdxtulmech
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:26 am

Since it's a 65-88 seater that puts it right in the regional range so I guess SkyWest will operate them. Can't pay top wages to pilot flying a jet with 70 seats.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:43 am

So with the reduced Mach speed, how much faster would the Overture flight time on EWR-LHR be versus current Boeing and Airbus aircraft on the route? Is it really enough faster to justify to cost? Or is it really just a bucket-list thing to fly supersonic?
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:47 am

DCTenFan wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know back then for the Concorde, who are the initial airlines who jumped on it? I can only think of BA and AF.

They were the only 2 airlines to ever fly the Concorde

:shakehead: Three.

Braniff was the third.
They flew AF/BA Concordes under their own registration and insurance, using their own crew.

And before anyone says it: no, not Singapore.
That was just a marketing j/v for fully-BA-operated service.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:54 am

DCTenFan wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know back then for the Concorde, who are the initial airlines who jumped on it? I can only think of BA and AF.


They were the only 2 airlines to ever fly the Concorde


Braniff did use Air France and BA aircraft with funny registrations like G-N94AD/N94AD (which was G-BOAD) for instance. Depending on whose stories you listen to, Braniff might have gone slightly above the speed of sound... But it was as far as I can tell a subsonic service only. And it was a dead-end.

I have an original marketing brochure for Concorde here, I can look at it and give you all the numbers. I can probably take a photo of the relevant section. The brochure was handed out when Concorde 002 G-BSST visited Sydney on its promotional tour. However I'm sure one of the 'experts' here will even say that brochure from the manufacturer of the plane is wrong too, so I don't really want to upload it.

AMALH747430 wrote:
Prost wrote:
If this announcement had been made by SQ, EK, QR et al I believe more people would truly be awed by it.


That’s what’s truly irritating about this forum. If it had been SQ, the ME3, an IAG airline, or the anti-trust love triangle (AA/B6/AS) this forum would be head over heals about how amazing this is. The kool-aid is strong!

This may or may not come to fruition but it shows people are actually thinking about the future. Maybe the Boom Overture doesn’t come out of this in its current form, but maybe the work on it leads to innovations that carry over to something else. Maybe it leads to an even better aircraft. The attitudes on here today are just, WOW! Call it “emotional attachment” or whatever you want to that makes you feel superior but this 37 year old lawyer that has watched the commercial aviation world in the west backslide into complacency thinks this is cool and wishes all parties involved nothing but the best!


If it had been an ME3 airline or any other quasi-state airline the reaction would have been uproariously negative, even more so than the United announcement.

jayunited wrote:
A lot has changed since 1965 when the first Concorde prototype was constructed the question is has the technology and engineering progressed to the point where it is economically viable in the commercial aviation industry. We will never know until someone tries and it is obvious neither Boeing or Airbus are interested at this point so it is going to take an outsider like Boom to test the waters just like SpaceX.


To quote the old A.net mantra on supersonic planes, the technology that makes an SST economically viable will make a subsonic plane even more economical or cost effective, so everyone will always choose the subsonic plane. Basically the old mantra says that no SST will ever be viable. (the forum search will find many saying that).
 
cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 am

Image

That's who had options on Concorde. Feel free to disagree with it, that's from the manufacturer itself. I don't know exactly when that brochure was printed (and there are other pages of it) but it's very, very old.
 
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JBo
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:56 am

I saw the article on social media and thought it was satire at first. I'm surprised someone is actually trying to develop a new supersonic airliner.

Like roughly 50% of the people on this thread, I'll believe it when I see it.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:58 am

JBo wrote:
I saw the article on social media and thought it was satire at first. I'm surprised someone is actually trying to develop a new supersonic airliner.

Like roughly 50% of the people on this thread, I'll believe it when I see it.


The name is satirical, but the project appears to be real enough. I suspected the United announcement was just attention grabbing or some late April-fools joke. Either way it seems United has plenty of room to back out of this, as I fully expect they will.
 
Curiousflyer
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:49 am

Agree with most people. Boom does not have the money to develop even a regional jet, forget about supersonic. And no engine. And despite what the idiot journalist at Bloomberg says, it was impossible to fit a business trip between London and NY within a day with Concorde, it will not get any better with a slower aircraft.
This project does not make sense because it does not solve any of the issues Concorde had.

Come back with a viable hydrogen-powered plane that does Mach 3 or 4... 2040 maybe.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:53 am

This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.
 
United1
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:05 am

JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


I'm fairly certain those folks mean Boom won't ever be allowed to fly supersonic over land. There is no reason why it won't be able to fly sub-sonic over land...in fact it will have to if UAs EWR-FRA route happens. Just like Concorde would take off from Kennedy accelerate to supersonic speeds over the Atlantic and then slow down to sub-sonic speeds upon approaching the coast of England.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
HanCholo
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Re: Big United Announcement Coming Up?

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:16 am

jplatts wrote:
UA might possibly announce a few more nonstop routes out of SFO such as SFO-CLT/ELP/MEM/TUL and the return of SFO-CVG nonstop service.

UA adding additional nonstop routes out of the Midwest such as CVG-LAX, CMH-LAX, DSM-LAX/IAD, IND-LAX, MCI-LAX/HHH/PWM, MKE-LAX, OMA-IAD, STL-LAX/PWM, and ICT-LAX/IAD are also possibilities.

UA re-adding LAX-ABQ/DFW/ELP/MSY/OKC/PHL/PIT/PDX nonstop service and adding LAX-ATL/BNA nonstop service might also be possibilities.


I am hoping for ELP-IAD. We've got a huge Army base (Ft. Bliss) next to us. Holloman AFB is only 94 miles away plus there is a huge federal law enforcement presence on the border. A nonstop to the DC area would be highly convenient for many of these folks. Not sure what the PDEW is, but I wonder if it's large enough for UA to give that route a nod?

If there is such an announcement from UA and it's for SFO instead then I'm okay with that too.
 
HanCholo
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Re: Big United Announcement Coming Up?

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:22 am

jplatts wrote:
UA might possibly announce a few more nonstop routes out of SFO such as SFO-CLT/ELP/MEM/TUL and the return of SFO-CVG nonstop service.

UA adding additional nonstop routes out of the Midwest such as CVG-LAX, CMH-LAX, DSM-LAX/IAD, IND-LAX, MCI-LAX/HHH/PWM, MKE-LAX, OMA-IAD, STL-LAX/PWM, and ICT-LAX/IAD are also possibilities.

UA re-adding LAX-ABQ/DFW/ELP/MSY/OKC/PHL/PIT/PDX nonstop service and adding LAX-ATL/BNA nonstop service might also be possibilities.


I am hoping for ELP-IAD. We've got a huge Army base (Ft. Bliss) next to us. Holloman AFB is only 94 miles away plus there is a huge federal law enforcement presence on the border. A nonstop to the DC area would be highly convenient for many of these folks. Not sure what the PDEW is, but I wonder if it's large enough for UA to give that route a nod?

If there is such an announcement from UA and it's for SFO instead then I'm okay with that too.
 
cpd
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:24 am

JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


Listen to the famous overflight of the TESGO waypoint on video. Would be doing about Mach 1.4, huge double bang. Anyhow, that's not related to United Airlines or the Boom supersonic plane so strictly speaking, it's off topic.
Last edited by cpd on Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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