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jetmatt777
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:34 am

JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


It happens the entire time it is supersonic; but to a static listener it happens only once. Think of it as a boat dragging a wake behind it. You see the boat go by, then seconds later the wake-wave reaches you. the wave only affects you that once, however is a constant, and travels behind the boat the entire time. When it affects you is different than someone 100 feet further away from you, but the same energy wave is hitting them just at a different time.

The airplane is a boat, but supersonic, so the “wake” is compressed more the faster it flies, where eventually all of the minor “waves” behind the initial wave stack up into a larger more powerful wave. Imagine all of the little waves behind the initial boat wave being stacked together.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:53 am

blooc350 wrote:


Boom Supersonic unveils its prototype for a commercial supersonic jet - The Verge

Boom Supersonic, an aviation startup, unveiled today a full-scale demonstrator of a supersonic passenger jet that aims to be the next-generation Concorde. The XB-1 demonstrator won’t take flight until 2021, but Boom unveiled the prototype to a group of aviation and aerospace executives at Centennial Airport in Denver.


I'll grant you it hasn't actually flown yet.
 
FGITD
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:04 am

It's also a single seat technology demonstrator.

Not bad, but it's a bit like showing off a motorcycle as proof that you can build a bus.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:10 am

Not to mention all above about the issues of a clean-sheet supersonic aircraft, from a start-up company with no history of engineering, supply chain, procurement, manufacturing, aftermarket support, and program management. With unproven engine, structural, systems, code, etc.

Launching and building in an aggressive timeframe, when even industry-leading firms struggle to do on program refreshes.

Targeting a niche market, with a high-cost, low capacity aircraft.

I don't think the people shelling out $15K to fly these hypothetical route are the types that are willing to deal with even Clear/TSA-Pre Check, or a baggage claim.
Is UA going to have dedicated terminals / airport infrastructure?

Most businesses aren't going to pay for this. Its hard enough to get a business class ticket these days, at that was pre-COVID.

Not to mention the whole timezone / flight time issues one of the posters mentioned above.

Cool tech, but the business case and the capability of this company is highly, highly suspect.
 
CBBW
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:10 am

Whether this comes to fruition or not I do hope by 2029 people can stop banging on about the tulip!
 
hnl-jack
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:59 am

Regardless of the outcome, it's nice to see UA looking forward and taking on a leadership role in the development of next generation aircraft. Bringing it's engineering and operational experience to the Boom team, much like they've done before with the development of the Douglas DC-4, DC-6, DC-7,DC-8, the Boeing 727, B-767 and B-777. The challenges, as many in this forum have noted are many, but having a major carrier in support of the development of such an aircraft is notable and a major step towards being recognized as a serious project in the eyes of investors and other airlines.
 
marcelh
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:21 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not to mention all above about the issues of a clean-sheet supersonic aircraft, from a start-up company with no history of engineering, supply chain, procurement, manufacturing, aftermarket support, and program management. With unproven engine, structural, systems, code, etc.


We all know what a clean-sheet CS series did to Bombardier….. And they knew something about developing, building, selling and supporting airplanes.
 
marcelh
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:50 am

hnl-jack wrote:
Regardless of the outcome, it's nice to see UA looking forward and taking on a leadership role in the development of next generation aircraft. Bringing it's engineering and operational experience to the Boom team, much like they've done before with the development of the Douglas DC-4, DC-6, DC-7,DC-8, the Boeing 727, B-767 and B-777. The challenges, as many in this forum have noted are many, but having a major carrier in support of the development of such an aircraft is notable and a major step towards being recognized as a serious project in the eyes of investors and other airlines.

It’s more interesting why well known and established OEMs aren’t involved.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:55 am

Well, I for one want them to succeed and take delivery. Commercial aviation needs something positive and new going for it.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
jetwet1
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:04 am

Tonight, the wife and I went out to dinner with a group of friends, these are people who couldn't tell the difference between a 737 and a 777. The interesting thing was, my wife (who still considers VS doing away with the inflight massages as the greatest travesty in aviation history) mentioned that United had ordered 6 supersonic jets, there followed an hours worth of people talking about how great it was. Again, these are people who couldn't care less about aviation, except does their seat convert into a bed discussing United and how great they are for making this purchase.

Honestly, (though we don't know for sure) for the cost of the daily coffee budget in the executive offices, United has managed to get people talking about them in a positive way, it's a brilliant move, yes we can sit here and discuss whether or not it will ever become a reality, but, to the general public it looks like United has become a leader.
 
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Aesma
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:18 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
If Boom were able to build an ER version eventually, UA could fly EWR-HNL-SYD and other eastern Australian routes with HNL being the ideal tech stop or scissors hub location from the east coast of the US to the east coast of Australia plus New Zealand.

https://simpleflying.com/united-airline ... upersonic/

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ewr-syd%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


What are you going to do about sonic booms over the US in that scenario?


Perhaps you need to read the material on Boom's website. Their whole premise is designing supersonic aircraft that minimize sonic boom and can legally fly over the US and other countries. it's part of the reason they are going for smaller aircraft flying a business class product at prices comparable to conventional subsonic service.


Their whole premise is ruined by the fact they chose to call themselves "Boom".
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:29 am

jayunited wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
International travel with Tesla starships is more likely


Except it wasn't that long ago that people thought SpaceX was a joke. When SpaceX announced they were developing a Falcon 9 reusable rocket they were practically laughed out of the room no one took them seriously because for years NASA and other space agencies around the world were simply dumping their rockets in the ocean. Then in 2015 SpaceX had some pretty spectacular and public failures that seem to solidify it was impossible to land a rocket on reach and reuse it, that was until 2016 when SpaceX finally pulled off the impossible much to the chagrin of both Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Now here we are today and SpaceX has acheived what many said could never be done thanks to advances in technology and engineering and they have left both Boeing Lockheed Martin behind in the process.

Boom, Rolls Royce and all the companies involved in this project without question have their work cut out for them to make this aircraft a reality. Think about this if SpaceX had listened to its detractors (Boeing, Lockheed and others in the industry) the US would still be dependent on and still paying the Russians to get American astronauts to the International Space Station and back to earth safely.

Right now NASA is working on a X-59 project which is a aircraft designed to operate at supersonic speeds without the sonic boom. A lot has changed since 1965 when the first Concorde prototype was constructed the question is has the technology and engineering progressed to the point where it is economically viable in the commercial aviation industry. We will never know until someone tries and it is obvious neither Boeing or Airbus are interested at this point so it is going to take an outsider like Boom to test the waters just like SpaceX.


I agree about SpaceX but the difference is Elon...no maybe not, I don't know. The clear difference is a billionaire willing to put billions on the table to make it happen. And even that isn't enough, cue Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin...

Who is providing billions to Boom ? From wiki they have gotten $151 million from venture capital companies and Japan Airlines (10M$ for the latter). They need 20 times that, probably more.

Another point about SpaceX is that the US government/NASA did believe in them (and competitors) back under Obama, to get it done at some point, and put public money on the table. I don't see Biden doing the same for Boom.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Noshow
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:37 am

There is no way a tiny company can just develop another mini-Concorde within some years still not having the engine to do it.
I wish them well but after Aerion's termination this becomes even less likely to happen. This thing is another stock investors money pit nothing else.
 
JibberJim
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:48 am

JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


It happens continuously whilst flying faster than the speed of sound, it's a single boom only to the listener.
 
Noshow
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:56 am

Isn't it a double boom?
I remember it well from the cold war days in Berlin. We got boomed intentionally whenever east-west.tensions heated up.
 
flyboy7974
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:00 am

Nothing more than a PR stunt ...... won't ever happen
 
tommy1808
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:04 am

Aesma wrote:
jayunited wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
International travel with Tesla starships is more likely


Except it wasn't that long ago that people thought SpaceX was a joke. When SpaceX announced they were developing a Falcon 9 reusable rocket they were practically laughed out of the room no one took them seriously because for years NASA and other space agencies around the world were simply dumping their rockets in the ocean. Then in 2015 SpaceX had some pretty spectacular and public failures that seem to solidify it was impossible to land a rocket on reach and reuse it, that was until 2016 when SpaceX finally pulled off the impossible much to the chagrin of both Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Now here we are today and SpaceX has acheived what many said could never be done thanks to advances in technology and engineering and they have left both Boeing Lockheed Martin behind in the process.

Boom, Rolls Royce and all the companies involved in this project without question have their work cut out for them to make this aircraft a reality. Think about this if SpaceX had listened to its detractors (Boeing, Lockheed and others in the industry) the US would still be dependent on and still paying the Russians to get American astronauts to the International Space Station and back to earth safely.

Right now NASA is working on a X-59 project which is a aircraft designed to operate at supersonic speeds without the sonic boom. A lot has changed since 1965 when the first Concorde prototype was constructed the question is has the technology and engineering progressed to the point where it is economically viable in the commercial aviation industry. We will never know until someone tries and it is obvious neither Boeing or Airbus are interested at this point so it is going to take an outsider like Boom to test the waters just like SpaceX.


I agree about SpaceX but the difference is Elon...no maybe not, I don't know. The clear difference is a billionaire willing to put billions on the table to make it happen. .


i think Musk "only" invested 100 Million USD in SpaceX, the rest came from other investors and billions from the US government.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Heinkel
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:28 am

JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


Nope. The sonic boom happens all the time, the a/c is flying supersonic. The be more precise: It is a double boom. One generated by the front of the a/c, one by the tail.

This double boom follows the aircraft during the whole supersonic flight. The boom takes 30 s - 60 s behind the a/c to reach ground, depending on the flight altitude. (Sound travels at Mach 1)

There is a nice YouTube video of the Concorde sonic double boom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=annkM6z1-FE

The description / title of the video is wrong. It doesn't "break the sound barrier" at that moment. The boom follows the a/c like a carpet. The video shows well, how loud the bang is. It won't be tolerated over populated areas.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:35 am

hinckley wrote:
There's another aspect of supersonic flight that's often ignored . . . Between the eastern US and Europe (arguably the largest long-haul route system), today's aircraft fly at the right speed when you take time zones into consideration. I've flown TATL countless times. I would never waste a day in the air taking a daytime flight. I - and most business people - work all day, fly overnight (sleeping in a modern airline's bed), shower on arrival and get to work the next day. If I fly overnight supersonically, I land in London or Paris in the middle of the night. That doesn't work and that's why BA and AF Concorde flights left JFK very early in the morning and arrived in the late afternoon. That was a day of business lost then and it's the same now. It doesn't matter that you were in the air for 3.5 rather than 6.5 hours. Fwiw, when Boeing cancelled the Sonic Cruiser, the conflict of flight times and time zones was one of the reasons they gave. They said flights would either have to leave or arrive at the wrong times and that wouldn't work for premium-paying customers.


Or depart NYC later so you arrive in London the next morning at the same time as if you left on an earlier flight on a 777? Instead of departing 6pm to get into London at 6am, you can depart at 9pm or so, giving you more time in the office. How can an argument seriously be going slower is better than faster in the modern age? Time wasted on a plane is still time wasted for business travellers.


I think the bigger question for debate is fuel-funny enough, same as Concorde. They are talking about 100% carbon neutral plane with 100% sustainable fuel. What is meant by that? And is that realistic? Is it really a fully sustainable fuel that would be a giant quantum leap in energy consumption for travel for mankind and the associated benefits for the industry, and the world, full stop? If so, how much will that cost? OR is it some better sustainable mix we have seen other airlines trialling, which although should of course be supported, still leaves them at the mercy of the energy markets and fuel burn with associated costs?

For sure there is definitely a market for a decked out 88 seater all business class set up between high yielding business markets such as LON-NYC, and apparently for $200Mln a plane list price. From a UA basis, it is also a great way to crack what is largely a OneWorld dominated route on the lucrative LON-NYC stretch. How to break in? Do something unique and different.

A lot of questions to be answered, and sure, will we see the day, but certainly is exciting to see some actual development forwards rather than another 777 or whatever modification….
 
SRQLOT
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:58 am

marcelh wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not to mention all above about the issues of a clean-sheet supersonic aircraft, from a start-up company with no history of engineering, supply chain, procurement, manufacturing, aftermarket support, and program management. With unproven engine, structural, systems, code, etc.


We all know what a clean-sheet CS series did to Bombardier….. And they knew something about developing, building, selling and supporting airplanes.


Other then their business jets, I’m not sure how good they were at anything else since they are getting rid of almost everything. And I really wished C series would have saved Bombardier.

Same is happening to Boeing, maybe a need for new blood?
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mxaxai
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:24 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
Time wasted on a plane is still time wasted for business travellers.

If businesses were this concerned about travel times, they'd do a lot more via video conferencing. Think of all the hours wasted by billions of people commuting to their offices. Or flying halfway across the world just to hold a 2-day workshop.

There are some jobs that require in-person attendance, like manual labor, or where it is an advantage, like sales pitches. None of those activities are common among the group of people who can afford supersonic travel.
 
rbavfan
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:52 am

Why do so many on here consider them suspect or not a viable company that can do this. Sorta like saying way back. Oh man this Boeing & Douglas thing or Apple will never take off. Why put them down before they can prove what they are doing. Lets concentrait on what may be rather than pre condemn them.
 
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Aesma
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:09 am

The first Boeing aircraft was made of wood, linen, cables, and was basically a copy of another plane.

You could say Boom are copying Concorde I guess, but doing so is a bit more challenging than a small seaplane flying at 65kn.

Also the Boeing Model 1 was actually a failure and didn't sell.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ziyulu
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:32 am

Regarding noise, does anyone remember if the Concorde had louder noise during take off and landing as compared to other aircraft?
 
Heinkel
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:45 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
Or depart NYC later so you arrive in London the next morning at the same time as if you left on an earlier flight on a 777? Instead of departing 6pm to get into London at 6am, you can depart at 9pm or so, giving you more time in the office. How can an argument seriously be going slower is better than faster in the modern age? Time wasted on a plane is still time wasted for business travellers.


You forgot one important thing: When does your businessman sleep?

Hard working a full day in NYC, then a short flight to LON, just to start a new hard day at work there? Even businessmen need to sleep to be fit for their meetings.

So don't underestimate a flight in a J or first class in a full reclinig bed/seat to arrive at your destination fit for a new day. Been there, done that.

This time in the air is definitely not wasted, especially for businessmen. It helps prevent jet lag.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:51 am

Ziyulu wrote:
Regarding noise, does anyone remember if the Concorde had louder noise during take off and landing as compared to other aircraft?

4 after-burning turbojet engines…extremely loud. Check out some of the videos on YouTube of it taking off.
 
slider
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:11 pm

GDB wrote:
SEU wrote:
Problem is a lot of the main reasons the Concorde was not successful still remains.

Im talking about :

BA/AF always had to have a Concorde spare at JFK just in case one went tech (PAX paid a lot extra for the Concorde so they have to get it) - so they had at planes sitting around doing nothing
Limited route options, pretty much only transatlantic EU-East Coast north America available
Small amount of units = higher maintenance and operational costs on a specialist aircraft
The benefit of supersonic travel over subsonic travel does not outweigh the negatives.


As someone who was in BA Concorde Engineering from 1997-2003, I can say that requirement for a spare was a nice to have, no more. Most of the time BA ran double daily services to JFK, so there was one already there by default, not positioned just in case.
Having a standby was nice to have since if the lead aircraft went tech as long as we got the pax on one within 90 mins IIRC, a lot of compensation avoided, remember BA and AF used the aircraft as a marketing took for it's highest paying pax. One major reason why it went in 2003 was that post 9/11 a lot of these customers cancelled forward bookings, these included across 1st class routes and Concorde as an overall package.

I have next to me, a mug, presented to BA Concorde Engineering staff in April 1999 to mark 100 non delayed for tech reasons from LHR, the actual final figure was 118.
Not bad for a specialized, highly complex aircraft fleet then over 30 years old.
It wasn't always like that of course, however having many staff who had spent decades on the type, including some who had built them at BAC helped.

Thinking back to those days also reminds me of something that I am afraid will dampen some of the high spirits around Boom. Our RR rep put it best when he said that the issue with any new SST in powerplant terms is not the performance and efficiency, at 50,000ft+/Mach 2, the Concorde/Olympus 593 combo would be hard to beat today. It's the rest of the flight envelope.
Not an issue when the aircraft was designed, it became one by the time of the final stages of testing/early production. That and the 1973 oil price hike.

Just to note that any residual government support finally ended in 1984, BA were privatized in 1987 and would not have operated Concorde for long if we were not making it pay. Of course it's rareness helped a lot!

What has been the driving factor in engine technology since? Fuel burn, noise and emissions, the latter now very much center stage and only going in one direction, whether anyone here likes it or not.
It is very hard to see a powerplant that can do the high speed/altitude stuff and also be a fuel sipping, lower noise, low emission engine. They are diametrically opposed.
It's the real main reason there has been no successor to Concorde.

We have to include the sonic boom under environment too, after all it was experiments in the US in the 60's that first cast that shadow.
A reduced one would have to be very reduced indeed, as in barely perceptible on the ground.
This design does not look like an aircraft that could do that.

I may be wrong, would like to be, Boom would do well to have RR on board as well as Snecma's descendant, after all who else have built a successful supersonic airliner engine powerplant that operated for decades?
Though it was a long time ago.
Maybe it will be like SpaceX, who thought a decade ago that the geeky bloke playing around with rockets would go and revolutionize the launcher market and looks set to do the same with manned beyond low Earth orbit flight, having already got the US back into LEO and shaming Boeing too.
But does Boom have the same feel, same zeal?

That hard to beat high speed performance;
http://www.concordesst.com/powerplant.html

The Concorde options that were in the end only that;
http://www.concordesst.com/history/orders.html


What a great and very enjoyable post! Thanks for sharing your own firsthand experiences!!
 
Jonne1184
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:13 pm

According to the FAA database, it was by far the loudest airliner measured.
 
mxaxai
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:14 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Regarding noise, does anyone remember if the Concorde had louder noise during take off and landing as compared to other aircraft?

Deafeningly loud. With afterburners, Concorde was more than 10dB louder than the 707-320B and nearly 20dB louder than the DC-9. It was even louder than modern supersonic fighters (the F-35 reportedly comes close).
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:26 pm

Heinkel wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all. Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.

Nope. The sonic boom happens all the time, the a/c is flying supersonic. The be more precise: It is a double boom. One generated by the front of the a/c, one by the tail. ... (portions deleted) ... The description / title of the video is wrong. It doesn't "break the sound barrier" at that moment. The boom follows the a/c like a carpet. The video shows well, how loud the bang is. It won't be tolerated over populated areas.

Concorde did occasionally generate a perceptible sonic boom over the rural area west of Halifax, Nova Scotia where I lived in the late 1990s. There was no FlightAware or FlightRadar24 at the time, so I'm not certain if any attempt was made to keep the flight path offshore to avoid Halifax or other populated areas. It was not a frequent occurrence, but when it did happen, it usually sounded like a heavy door closing accompanied by a vibration that lightly rattled glassware in my kitchen. However, on two occasions I experienced a full-strength sonic boom in this location.

Prior to that, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I resided on the south shore of Long Island, New York, near the approach path to runway 31R at JFK. The engines of Concorde were "somewhat" louder and had a different sound than those of other aircraft, but it was not offensively loud on approach as had initially been predicted by opponents. Different story on takeoff, when it was much louder than conventional turbofans of the period, which were quite loud in their own right. Fortunately, the departure flight path from 13L/R did not pass over our neighborhood, but other parts of the region bore the brunt of the noise.
 
NZ321
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:38 pm

Noshow wrote:
There is no way a tiny company can just develop another mini-Concorde within some years still not having the engine to do it.
I wish them well but after Aerion's termination this becomes even less likely to happen. This thing is another stock investors money pit nothing else.


Indeed. But at times like this people need hope. They need to see a way through. United is thinking positive publicity and all the rest of the associated elements - yes? But not paying attention to the technical elements. That's not their role. So they are ducking for cover on that one and riding the wave.
Plane mad!
 
MDC862
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:01 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Tonight, the wife and I went out to dinner with a group of friends, these are people who couldn't tell the difference between a 737 and a 777. The interesting thing was, my wife (who still considers VS doing away with the inflight massages as the greatest travesty in aviation history) mentioned that United had ordered 6 supersonic jets, there followed an hours worth of people talking about how great it was. Again, these are people who couldn't care less about aviation, except does their seat convert into a bed discussing United and how great they are for making this purchase.

Honestly, (though we don't know for sure) for the cost of the daily coffee budget in the executive offices, United has managed to get people talking about them in a positive way, it's a brilliant move, yes we can sit here and discuss whether or not it will ever become a reality, but, to the general public it looks like United has become a leader.



Yes, but will any of this group be able to spend $15-20,000 per ticket one-way on a consistent basis? No, and the overwhelming majority of individuals on either side of the largest bodies of ocean on this planet cannot either.

Great single night topic of conversation, but from a business side, doesn't make a lot of success.
 
UA748i
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:08 pm

MrNuke wrote:
UA748i wrote:
I think the research with the X-59 QUESST will be playing a role in the design of Overture. It has to. Large scale SST has a place in the future, and if successful, significant sonic boom noise pollution will be a thing of the past.

Giving the X-59 testing will be going on during roughly the same time Overature is slated for EIS that seems somewhat unlikely. Boom for now seems to be targeting the over water routes where noise pollution doesn't matter. It will be interesting to see how everything plays out capital wise and X-59 wise for Boom.


?

X-59 flies next year.

Overture EIS is 2029.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:11 pm

The more I think about this and the value prop, what it really sounds like is more of a start-up venture to get funding to do R&D / test-bed work on some new tech and hopefully sell it to one of the big OEMs who has the capabilities to actually design/integrate, build, sell, support commercial aircraft programs.

Then the investors get a nice pay-out.

A bit the like the wild-west going on the past few years with all the M&A activity in terms of some of things going on with tech in the autonomous vehicle space that some of these start-ups were bought up by the large Tier 1 suppliers or global automotive OEMs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:19 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
marcelh wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not to mention all above about the issues of a clean-sheet supersonic aircraft, from a start-up company with no history of engineering, supply chain, procurement, manufacturing, aftermarket support, and program management. With unproven engine, structural, systems, code, etc.


We all know what a clean-sheet CS series did to Bombardier….. And they knew something about developing, building, selling and supporting airplanes.


Other then their business jets, I’m not sure how good they were at anything else since they are getting rid of almost everything. And I really wished C series would have saved Bombardier.

Same is happening to Boeing, maybe a need for new blood?


BBD should never have gone down the C-Series trail—they were told don’t try to go against the A/B duopoly. The only thing the plane could do was sink them and really hurt the bizjet side. They now are starved of cash to develop off the G7500 down market—to build successors to the G6000, 650 jets which have been money makers and made them 1 or 2 in the industry, by revenue.
 
GDB
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:20 pm

hinckley wrote:
I'm an av geek and tech geek. I'm also a business person who got to fly a BA Concorde long ago. But the days of businesses investing shareholder capital in something "cool" for the sake of "cool" are long over. And even back in the day, those who think that Concorde had a proven business case are marginally correct at best. BA and AF bought the planes for next to nothing. Had they paid a normal price, they would have lost money. And with the advent of the internet (and a work-from-home pandemic), whatever "success" Concorde had then could never be replicated today.

There's another aspect of supersonic flight that's often ignored . . . Between the eastern US and Europe (arguably the largest long-haul route system), today's aircraft fly at the right speed when you take time zones into consideration. I've flown TATL countless times. I would never waste a day in the air taking a daytime flight. I - and most business people - work all day, fly overnight (sleeping in a modern airline's bed), shower on arrival and get to work the next day. If I fly overnight supersonically, I land in London or Paris in the middle of the night. That doesn't work and that's why BA and AF Concorde flights left JFK very early in the morning and arrived in the late afternoon. That was a day of business lost then and it's the same now. It doesn't matter that you were in the air for 3.5 rather than 6.5 hours. Fwiw, when Boeing cancelled the Sonic Cruiser, the conflict of flight times and time zones was one of the reasons they gave. They said flights would either have to leave or arrive at the wrong times and that wouldn't work for premium-paying customers.


As an 'Av-Geek' you might want to check some basic details about this aircraft, firstly this Branson generated BS (from 2003) that BA paid 'next to nothing' for Concorde, well if 20% more than a 747 in 1972 (when BOAC it's predecessor) ordered their initial 5, is next to nothing, maybe.
True there were a couple of white tails both BA and AF got for next to nothing, though I can say BA then had to spend on making them fit their standard.
Then people say 'well the governments wrote off the development cost', this is true. It is also true that it was far from the only type this can be said about. It depends how you define aid, neither the UK nor France had anything like NACA then NASA to do well funded research, nor an entity like the Pentagon and DARPA do fund even more.

In Concorde's case, when it entered service to pay back some of that money, BA had to give some 80% of any direct operating profits back to the government. This was a drag on the airline, was clearly going to end as BA approached being privatized, so BA took over the support costs in total, paying a final sum to the government and went on to make a great success with the type.

Could have been worse, the US government spent on the abortive B2707 as much as the UK did on Concorde, from the 1962 agreement to build it with France until the residual support ended by the early 80's.
But we got actual aircraft, which while a commercial and in terms of the changing attitudes towards noise etc, political failure, it was a major boost to the technology sectors of both nations, as the list of innovations on Concorde was long. Including partial FBW on an airliner, electronic engine controls, mastering the intake system (which the Soviets requested for their very problematic TU-144, since this was developed by the Guided Weapons Division of British Aircraft Corporation and it was the Cold War, no chance of that).

Maybe best stated by some visitors we had in December 1998, from NASA. They came to see how we maintained support for a small fleet of unique air vehicles long out of production. They regarded Concorde as Britain and France's own Apollo Programme.
The answer to NASA's question? 'With some difficulty', vendors come and go, orders are small and often years apart, they were looking to see how we did it and comparing with their Space Shuttle.

BA001 pushed back from LHR at 10.30, it arrived in JFK around 09.20, so not the late afternoon, I did it more than once and it is quite a thing to set your watch back when you arrive in New York the same day.
This was one of the major selling points to customers, you could do a full day's work in NY and get back the same day on the BA004, or more usually the next day on the BA002 which got back to London in the early afternoon.

Here is a snapshot of BA operations, a common myth is that the aircraft sat around much of the time;
Saturday 17th April 1999, all times local LHR;
BA9044C G-BOAC LHR-CDG (Charter)
BA272 G-BOAB LHR-BGI 09.30
BA001 G-BOAE LHR-JFK 10.30
BA002 G-BOAA JFK-LHR 13.45
BA273 G-BOAB BGI-LHR 15.50
BA002 G-BOAA JFK-LHR 13.45
BA004 G-BOAE JFK-LHR 18.45
BA003 G-BOAD LHR-JFK 19.00

Sunday 18th April 1999
BA001 G-BOAE LHR-JFK 10.30
BA9043C G-BOAC CDG-CDG 13.30
BA002 G-BOAD JFK-LHR 13.45
BA9010C G-BOAG LHR-LHR 14.00
BA004 G-BOAE JFK-LHR 18.45
BA003 G-BOAB LHR-JFK 19.00
BA9045C G-BOAC CDG-LHR 20.20

Between November and April BA ran a largely weekend BGI route, very lucrative and sometimes with additional ones of the Sunday and charters.

Note the charters, BA and AF flew many and varied ones, in BA's case it only amounted to some 10% of revenue but marketing you could not pay for, though some were luxury ones with tour operators, many like the LHR-LHR above allowed many to experience supersonic flight at a fraction of the cost.

To the present, I am shocked to hear the BOOM has 140 employees, are they taking the piss?
Really, without some very major aerospace companies putting very major funding in, count me very dubious.
To those who might think it does not matter, gain some knowledge or grow up.
To the idea that the PR for UA is good enough, congrats, you have identified one of the curses of our age.
Last edited by GDB on Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:22 pm

MDC862 wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
Tonight, the wife and I went out to dinner with a group of friends, these are people who couldn't tell the difference between a 737 and a 777. The interesting thing was, my wife (who still considers VS doing away with the inflight massages as the greatest travesty in aviation history) mentioned that United had ordered 6 supersonic jets, there followed an hours worth of people talking about how great it was. Again, these are people who couldn't care less about aviation, except does their seat convert into a bed discussing United and how great they are for making this purchase.

Honestly, (though we don't know for sure) for the cost of the daily coffee budget in the executive offices, United has managed to get people talking about them in a positive way, it's a brilliant move, yes we can sit here and discuss whether or not it will ever become a reality, but, to the general public it looks like United has become a leader.



Yes, but will any of this group be able to spend $15-20,000 per ticket one-way on a consistent basis? No, and the overwhelming majority of individuals on either side of the largest bodies of ocean on this planet cannot either.

Great single night topic of conversation, but from a business side, doesn't make a lot of success.


If Boom hits their targets the airfare should be around 5k. Comparable to a first class fare…much lower than what Concorde was able to profitability operate at.
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eurotrader85
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:28 pm

Heinkel wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Or depart NYC later so you arrive in London the next morning at the same time as if you left on an earlier flight on a 777? Instead of departing 6pm to get into London at 6am, you can depart at 9pm or so, giving you more time in the office. How can an argument seriously be going slower is better than faster in the modern age? Time wasted on a plane is still time wasted for business travellers.


You forgot one important thing: When does your businessman sleep?

Hard working a full day in NYC, then a short flight to LON, just to start a new hard day at work there? Even businessmen need to sleep to be fit for their meetings.

So don't underestimate a flight in a J or first class in a full reclinig bed/seat to arrive at your destination fit for a new day. Been there, done that.

This time in the air is definitely not wasted, especially for businessmen. It helps prevent jet lag.


I believe I read UA's plan is for full lie-flat beds on the plane and if the person in question, who decided to take an overnighter, really feels they need a few more hours kip then they have the time to do so in the arrival lounge, checking into the hotel early/late beforehand, or managing their time and schedule in another manner of their choice. Besides, I think you forget, if your businessman tries to sleep too early its difficult anyway on a jet engine, and hardly an equal to a normal bed.

As one of those businessmen, yes, being on the plane is time wasted that could be in the office, keeping up with the developments on the ground literally, or at home, or doing something else altogether. Sure, we are on a.net and we are avgeeks, but when you do X hundred flights a year (in normal times), it's still weeks and months of your life lost, and without trying to sound like a cliché, time equals money.

The idea that jet engines have magically by chance found the perfect speed and thus amount of time to travel between two destinations on the planet is frankly nonsense. Faster is better, gets things done quicker. The sooner we can all start freely travelling around again to drive business, for those that always did and will need it, the better. If we can do it faster and quicker (at least as sustainable environmental wise), better for all. While acknowledging this project is probably unlikely to come to fruition, I personally give credit to UA/JAL and Boom for exploring ideas that can make a marked step forward in aviation, engineering, and the travelling public’s experience and need.
 
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:29 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Regarding noise, does anyone remember if the Concorde had louder noise during take off and landing as compared to other aircraft?


As others have said, not so much on landing. But it was insanely loud on takeoff, and that's taking into account that planes of its era were much louder. I remember taking off behind one once from IAD and thinking the Concorde takeoff was substantially louder onboard my flight from whatever the hold-short distance was than my flight's own takeoff was from onboard (this was early '90s and I was on a D9 series).
 
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fallap
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:35 pm

I swear I thought I had slept for ten months when I woke up and read the news. I guess it aint no April's fools then.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
MrNuke
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:38 pm

UA748i wrote:
?

X-59 flies next year.

Overture EIS is 2029.

The first Overture is scheduled to be unveiled in 2025. X-59 testing is currently scheduled into 2025. Given Boom's pace of development of XB-1, substantial development work is going to have to happen concurrently to the X-59 testing if they're going to come close to meeting that goal. None of Boom's marketing of potential routes, nor that of the 3 publicly identified customers are over land routes. If the X-59 comes through with a substantial breakthrough does Boom pause to re-evaluate? Maybe. At that point though Boeing and Airbus may re-evaluate their stance as well and may or may not want or need Boom. What happens if boom reduction comes at a hypothetical huge efficiency hit?

Scholl has point blank essentially said they're not looking for a low boom with Overture.


the Overture remains point-designed for unrestricted operations over water. “The strategy remains the same,” says Scholl. “We’re focused on transoceanic routes where we can offer a big speedup for as little cost as possible with proven technology and the shortest possible development timeline.”

Scholl concedes that low-boom technology has a future. “[But it will be] a long time before anyone knows how quiet is quiet enough,” he says. “The last thing you want to do is make a big investment in it, and then miss it by a decibel and then all is for naught. You also give up efficiency for quiet. So we are still more convinced than ever that there’s a meaningful market for transoceanic [travel] where the most important thing is efficiency and low-boom doesn’t really help you.”

https://boomsupersonic.com/news/post/bo ... monstrator
Last edited by MrNuke on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airbazar
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:49 pm

MrNuke wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I agree. We also have to remember that Concorde was actually profitable for the airlines so it is a somewhat proven business model.

That's easier to do when you get several of your air frames for essentially free. The bigger issue near-term on the cost structure is that Concorde's development was essentially subsidized by Great Britain and France. Boom doesn't have that luxury. It is one thing for Boeing or Airbus to spend billions of dollars developing the A350 or 787 knowing they'll get hundreds to thousands of orders to spread that cost over. This is a bit different.


Maybe they'll get these ones for free too :) The airlines don't care so much if the program is commercially successful for Boom or not, just like they didn't care if the A380 was commercially successful for Airbus. As long as the plane makes money for the airlines, that's all they care.
Yes, it's a bit different this time but for better IMO.
Despite getting the frames for free it took years for a sizable market and for the airlines to create an operating model that was sustainable. That coincided with deregulation and explosion in airline travel. Airlines today are much more operationally advanced than they were back in the days of regulation. The world is flush with cash. In the last 20 years alone the total number of billionaires have quadrupled. I'm not talking about the super rich that fly in private jets. I'm talking about folks that can pay $15K to fly NYC-LON or SFO-TYO. And last but not least, a supersonic airplane is not new. There are hundreds of them flying around every day. Boom is not exactly inventing the wheel here so this is more about making it work operationally than it is designing a new airplane.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 pm

I wonder when the NIMBY's will come out about this supersonic jet?
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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Revelation
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:52 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Call it “emotional attachment” or whatever you want to that makes you feel superior but this 37 year old lawyer that has watched the commercial aviation world in the west backslide into complacency thinks this is cool and wishes all parties involved nothing but the best!

It hasn't backslid into complacency, it has just picked a different optimization point than the one you think is cool.

It has chosen to optimize for affordable travel rather than Jetsons gee whiz stuff that get some people excited.

Despite what Greta may think, it has also made great advancements on cleaning up emissions and reducing noise.

And this stuff requires all manner of technological advancement, in terms of computer modeling, aerodynamics, material science, etc.

As above, another non-cool optimization point would be ATC, but that seems to take a lot of coordination and bashing out of details as opposed to 150 elite techies living out their childhood fantasies in the rarefied Colorado mountain air, so it doesn't get the kind of impassioned posts we see here.

FGITD wrote:
It's also a single seat technology demonstrator.

Not bad, but it's a bit like showing off a motorcycle as proof that you can build a bus.

Yes, the reason it's called Baby Boom is that it is a very scaled down version of the final product. In particular the engines as mentioned earlier in this thread would not meet the performance, emissions or maintenance requirements Boom has set for itself.

jetwet1 wrote:
Tonight, the wife and I went out to dinner with a group of friends..

Wow, that is more amazing to me than a potential supersonic jet!

Aesma wrote:
I agree about SpaceX but the difference is Elon...no maybe not, I don't know. The clear difference is a billionaire willing to put billions on the table to make it happen. And even that isn't enough, cue Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin...

Who is providing billions to Boom ? From wiki they have gotten $151 million from venture capital companies and Japan Airlines (10M$ for the latter). They need 20 times that, probably more.

Another point about SpaceX is that the US government/NASA did believe in them (and competitors) back under Obama, to get it done at some point, and put public money on the table. I don't see Biden doing the same for Boom.

SpaceX folklore is a bit different, see below. It took $120M or so of Elon's cash and about eight years to get SpaceX started up, then a bunch of gubmint money kicked in.

Unmanned space flight is a lot lower of a regulatory burden than is commercial airline service. As we can all see SpaceX blows up stuff all the time and no one is too concerned.

I agree it is not likely that a governmental source will kick in $billions to get this product to market. The only outside chance I see is if somehow US DoD makes this a priority. We hear some rumblings along those lines already. Who knows, they seem to get money for whatever crazy ideas they come up with.

SpaceX Folklore:

SpaceX developed its first orbital launch vehicle, the Falcon 1, with private funding.[14][15] The Falcon 1 was an expendable two-stage-to-orbit small-lift launch vehicle. The total development cost of Falcon 1 was approximately US$90 million[16] to US$100 million.[17]

In 2005, SpaceX announced plans to pursue a human-rated commercial space program through the end of the decade, a program which would later become the Dragon spacecraft.[18] In 2006, NASA announced that the company was one of two selected to provide crew and cargo resupply demonstration contracts to the ISS under the COTS program.[19]

The first two Falcon 1 launches were purchased by the United States Department of Defense under a program that evaluates new US launch vehicles suitable for use by DARPA.[15][20][21] The first three launches of the rocket, between 2006 and 2008, all resulted in failures. These failures almost ended the company as Musk had planned and financing to cover the costs of three launches; Tesla, SolarCity, and Musk personally were all nearly bankrupt at the same time as well;[22] Musk was reportedly "waking from nightmares, screaming and in physical pain" because of the stress.[23]

However, things started to turn around when the first successful launch was achieved shortly after with the fourth attempt on 28 September 2008. Musk split his remaining US$30 million between SpaceX and Tesla, and NASA awarded the first Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) contract to SpaceX in December, thus financially saving the company.[24]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX#20 ... l_launches

United1 wrote:
If Boom hits their targets the airfare should be around 5k. Comparable to a first class fare…much lower than what Concorde was able to profitability operate at.

Boom has no control over what airlines will charge for a seat if/when this thing gets into commercial service.
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GDB
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:57 pm

jeffrey1970 wrote:
I wonder when the NIMBY's will come out about this supersonic jet?


It's way beyond the usual NIMBY's, booms, high altitude pollution, noise, however a moot point as this is so unlikely to happen
 
blockski
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:40 pm

Aviation hasn't been "backsliding" at all; it's now a mature industry and we've managed to explore most of the frontiers out there.

I get why Avgeeks are interested in a supersonic airliner, but it's not innovative in any major way - we've had a supersonic airliner before, we have lots of supersonic aircraft. This is well-known territory. It's exciting because it's fast. But none of this is really new.

Speed also is clearly not anywhere close to the most pressing challenge facing aviation. The biggest challenge is sustainability. United is out here touting a zero-net carbon product from Boom. On the one hand, that's such an outlandish claim that it's easy to dismiss (again, speed is sexy). On the other hand, if there were a breakthrough that enabled net-zero aviation of any kind (yet alone supersonic aviation) that would clearly by far and away a more important breakthrough than anything having to do with speed.
 
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:14 pm

aumaverick wrote:
IADCA wrote:
A.net: "Wah, planes today are so boring, I wish someone could do something cool like a Concorde NG."

United puts out an announcement that it's planning to purchase 15 planes that are basically Concorde NGs.

Also A.net: "Underwhelming. Doesn't reflect well. Not worth investing our hopes."

I mean, yeah, it's a low-risk, low-percentage bet, but it also does make the bet immensely more likely to pan out by putting a big name on the powerpoint decks for potential investors and when trying to recruit talent and potential future customers.


To put it another way...

AA to make a major announcement in tomorrow...
A.netters: Uh, another stupid underwhelming route announcement.
AA announces launch of 757 NG MAX
A.netters: Finally, something new!


.........otherwise potentially known as MOM...... :rotfl:
 
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:42 pm

I’m not the most learned at supersonic flights. Have there been studies made at what altitude would the sonic boom be weaker on the ground? Do you actually have to get into space for it not to affect the ground or if you could fly up to 100,000 feet there would be a big change in the boom?
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GDB
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Call it “emotional attachment” or whatever you want to that makes you feel superior but this 37 year old lawyer that has watched the commercial aviation world in the west backslide into complacency thinks this is cool and wishes all parties involved nothing but the best!

It hasn't backslid into complacency, it has just picked a different optimization point than the one you think is cool.

It has chosen to optimize for affordable travel rather than Jetsons gee whiz stuff that get some people excited.

Despite what Greta may think, it has also made great advancements on cleaning up emissions and reducing noise.

And this stuff requires all manner of technological advancement, in terms of computer modeling, aerodynamics, material science, etc.



In all my years in the aviation business, the latter ones in particular, again and again I cited how much cleaner and quieter modern airliners were and how they were getting even better. Living near LHR I could hear it. In comparison to my 1970's/early 80's schooling also nearby, back in the day when a 707, DC-8, VC-10, Trident, IL-62, IL-86 and yes Concorde, would disrupt lessons due to the noise, though at least Concorde was up and away very fast!
But in later years it has become clear that I was missing the point, it's a simple one, the gains in lower emissions has been more than negated by the growth of the industry.
I put this down to my own experience and not seeing directly all those LCC's, though they of course were not the only ones growing, I guess I was stuck in the mindset of the airline industry when I entered it in the 1980s.

The stark fact is this, even with planned new developments, jetfuel powered airliners are reaching the limits which they can operate in the almost inevitable international demands for lowering CO2 emissions, at least without caps on numbers. Think last year as a future norm.
There is a reason why engine makers in particular are investing in new ideas, from bio to battery, these are hard headed business moves.
So not just 'Greta', the question there is why are so many powerful people spooked by a teenage girl from a 1st world country?
Maybe they are remembering it was a kid who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes?

I note the glib statement by Boom about it's environmental impact, rather typical in it's lack of detail.
There were many environmental objects to Concorde, some genuine, others fanciful, some just political. One real concern was the threat to the upper atmosphere and Ozone Layer if 100's of Concordes were in operation.
As it turned out there were so few it made no difference, however Boom is slated to fly at these altitudes too.
They won't get backing for a Concorde sized customer base/production run.
So what is their answer? Bio fuels? Even then there will be requirements for extensive studies on this.

It's another huge doubt against this project.
 
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Re: United orders supersonic planes from Boom (was: Big United Announcement Coming Up?)

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:47 pm

Heinkel wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
This might be a silly question, but I hear people arguing that the aircraft won't ever be permitted flying over land at all.

Why is that? I thought a sonic boom only happened when an aircraft reaches the speed of sound, and when leaving the speed of sound. It doesn't happen the entire flight.


Nope. The sonic boom happens all the time, the a/c is flying supersonic. The be more precise: It is a double boom. One generated by the front of the a/c, one by the tail.

This double boom follows the aircraft during the whole supersonic flight. The boom takes 30 s - 60 s behind the a/c to reach ground, depending on the flight altitude. (Sound travels at Mach 1)

There is a nice YouTube video of the Concorde sonic double boom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=annkM6z1-FE

The description / title of the video is wrong. It doesn't "break the sound barrier" at that moment. The boom follows the a/c like a carpet. The video shows well, how loud the bang is. It won't be tolerated over populated areas.


Thank you Heinkel and JibberJim for the explenation and teaching me something new today. I have heard them in the past (grew up around a military air base), but I thought it only happened once. Interesting physics.

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