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catiii
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:31 pm

What credibility does the person in the video have? I work in the industry and have never heard of him.
 
airzona11
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:32 pm

NLINK wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.



The only bad thing about the 338 is it is a orphaned fleet and the 339 operating costs are very close.

The original 330-900 order was for the 767-300er replacement.


That is a lot of CapEx/increased leasing costs to accelerate spending for no large short term advantage.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:41 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
Heh, would be cool if the 757s got the DC9 treatment and flew in modest numbers (even just 30 or 40) past 2030. Possible? Probably, unless fuel becomes an issue.

The 757 fleet did get a complete interior overhaul just a few years ago when they were converted to a standard 199 pax config. All new overhead bins, galleys and lavs. Seats got a complete overhaul also. Most had the latest satellite internet system installed with a complete seat back entertainment system. That Sat internet system is getting upgraded to a new system currently.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:14 pm

catiii wrote:
What credibility does the person in the video have? I work in the industry and have never heard of him.



He is probably an avid enthusiast putting his opinion on the internet. His credibility must not be that high...
 
bennett123
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:45 pm

Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:55 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.


The 757 has a flight length sensitive threshold curve between 50K cycles and 120K Flight Hours. The curve is in page 9 of Section 9 of the maintenance planning document

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FAA-2 ... ment_1.pdf

When reaching the threshold of 50,000 flight cycles or the FLS cycles and hours (whichever comes first), all C-check (or higher) structural inspection repeat intervals must be no greater than those shown in Appendix K. Structures C-check interval is defined in Section 1 as 3,000 flight cycles or 18 months. This interval restriction applies only to an extension to the flight cycle limit and not the calendar limit. This means that any operator, who has escalated the structures program by changing either task intervals (flight cycles) or the C-check interval (flight cycles), must reduce the repeat frequencies back to the MPD baseline structures program intervals before accumulating 50,000 flight cycles or the FLS cycles and hours (whichever comes first). The reason for this is that the Title 14 CFR § 25.571 damage tolerance evaluation takes credit for the baseline structures program defined in Appendix K. The airworthiness limitations listed in Section 9 are supplemental structural inspections of the SSIs for which the required DTR is not satisfied by the baseline structural inspections defined in Appendix K. Any continued escalation beyond the MPD baseline structures program may result in additional structure not meeting the required DTR which was the basis of certification. The inspections shown in Section 9 Airworthiness Limitations are to be accomplished in conjunction with and not as a substitute for the existing structures maintenance program found in Appendix K.


This is the closest to a realistic inflection point in maintenance costs for the 757. Given how Delta has a tendency to retire 757s at 30-32 years, I suspect they likely are reaching that threshold which can cause maintenance costs to jump.
 
777Mech
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:10 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

But.. the 757 maintenance programs and processes always looked more like wide body programs than being competitive with narrowbodies. 30+ years old 757s need real heavy check$.. And they were never real fuel efficient. Reliability? At what costs?


I find your statements about maintenance and reliability confusing and inaccurate

First off, Delta isn’t doing heavy check maintenance on 757s that are 30+ years old. Delta is consistently retiring 757s right around 30-31 years old. Delta’s youngest 757s are only 17 years old.

Secondly, the statement that the 757 looks more like widebody maintenance programs isn’t true. The 757 has an MSG-3 program. Delta isn’t doing D Checks. They have L and H checks. The 757 airframe is fairly robust. According to the reported metrics below, the 757 has lower maintenance costs per available seat mile for Delta than the A320

https://www.planestats.com/bhsn_2017dec

Delta Maintenance costs in cents per ASM
717 2.08
A319 1.59
A320 1.33
A321 1.16
MD80 1.21
737-700 1.74
737-800 1.26
737-900 1.11
757-200 1.05


If we compare cost per block hour the 737-800, 757-200 and A320 for Delta are pretty similar ($805 vs $816 vs $777) and remember that the 757 has more seats and is bigger which brings down maintenance cost per ASM. If we compare a brand new A321 or 737-900ER, of course maintenance costs for newer planes are lower. The 757 maintenance costs are similar to other narrowbodies of a similar age. This is one of the reasons why a higher percentage of 25 or 30 year old 757s are flying than A320s.

When we compare 757 schedule reliability to other airplanes, the 757 is competitive at Delta. While not one of the best fleets, it’s more reliable than the A320s (which are of similar age) in the Delta fleet ore-COVID

Image

Source https://airinsight.com/deltas-a220s-schedule-struggle/

So in conclusion the 757 for Delta has similar or better maintenance costs (depending on if you look at block hour or per cost per ASM) to other similar aged narrowbodies in the fleet and similar reliability. Maintenance costs are not a liability for the 757 at Delta.


Except they will be putting 30+ year old 757s into heavy checks. 660 for instance should be going early next year. There are zero 757s scheduled to leave the fleet as it stands now. All of the 75Ds will get IFC as well, so it's a vote of confidence for the fleet.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:12 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.


DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...
 
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admanager
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:26 am

The 757 fleet did get a complete interior overhaul just a few years ago when they were converted to a standard 199 pax config. All new overhead bins, galleys and lavs. Seats got a complete overhaul also.

That new layout clusters Economy Comfort around the lav at L2. I cant for the life of me figure out why they did this. I get cutting the size of F, but bathroom sounds, smells, limited recline seats and a high percentage of narrow seats with in armrest tv’s make the -200 my last choice on Delta.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:54 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This YouTube clickbait and thread is dumb and lacks any real analysis.

I am not even going to waste my time to watch the video.

DL 757s are what they are. They are not any more of a liability than any other fleet type, especially when putting their age, utilization, mission, and longevity in perspective.

DL has so many later built 757s because of the combined NW and DL fleet.

The 757s work well for the time being on the route profile they are used and also for the fact they are increasingly becoming the flex fleet / variable capacity

With the current post covid financial position and debt load it doesn’t make sense to retire then early for the sake of retiring them early. Either way they will start to sunset later this decade.

/thread lock


Agreed. The "Colby Explanes" YouTube channel is garbage. I clicked on one of his videos a once and regretted it.

The DL 757's are paid for, or on really favorable leases. They are also reasonably efficient (especially the B753) when used on high traffic, medium-range routes. I expect to see the B757's still working for DL into the latter half of this decade.

Eventually DL will be retiring the B757's and replacing most of them with A321NEO's. However, the 321NEO deliveries seem to have been pushed out a couple of years due to pandemic-related financial losses and the need to keep CAPEX low until the recovery is assured.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:43 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.


DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


NEO. Most of the domestic and Hawaii stuff anyways I can see them taking. Can't see them doing anything transatlantic unless they get XLRs.

AA had a decent fleet of 757s and now they're all gone without a real successor, but that's mostly because Covid made those long thin routes unnecessary at this time. No more JFK-MAN/BHM/GLA (Glasgow?) or from PHL.

Life will go on without them, is the reality of it.

Oh wow, just realized their 73Gs were retired.
 
777Mech
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:29 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This YouTube clickbait and thread is dumb and lacks any real analysis.

I am not even going to waste my time to watch the video.

DL 757s are what they are. They are not any more of a liability than any other fleet type, especially when putting their age, utilization, mission, and longevity in perspective.

DL has so many later built 757s because of the combined NW and DL fleet.

The 757s work well for the time being on the route profile they are used and also for the fact they are increasingly becoming the flex fleet / variable capacity

With the current post covid financial position and debt load it doesn’t make sense to retire then early for the sake of retiring them early. Either way they will start to sunset later this decade.

/thread lock


Agreed. The "Colby Explanes" YouTube channel is garbage. I clicked on one of his videos a once and regretted it.

The DL 757's are paid for, or on really favorable leases. They are also reasonably efficient (especially the B753) when used on high traffic, medium-range routes. I expect to see the B757's still working for DL into the latter half of this decade.

Eventually DL will be retiring the B757's and replacing most of them with A321NEO's. However, the 321NEO deliveries seem to have been pushed out a couple of years due to pandemic-related financial losses and the need to keep CAPEX low until the recovery is assured.


First NEO delivery is in 1Q22. So not too far off.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:42 am

Delta was quite quick with the decisions over the sea change caused by Covid. Lots of planes got retired, lots got parked. I imagine DL has down to the cent the best aircraft for the missions. If the 757 made it through this period with DL I suspect they may have a clue for when to retire them.
 
wjcandee
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:52 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.


The 757 has a flight length sensitive threshold curve between 50K cycles and 120K Flight Hours.
[...]
This is the closest to a realistic inflection point in maintenance costs for the 757. Given how Delta has a tendency to retire 757s at 30-32 years, I suspect they likely are reaching that threshold which can cause maintenance costs to jump.


Unlikely they're anywhere near 50k cycles or 120,000 hours, based on a random sampling:

651DL 31.9 years old. As of Nov 2020, 89692 hours/38751 cycles. Average a bit more than 1200 cycles a year; 11300 cycles left. About 9 years.
6707A 21.1 years old. As of April 2020, 67502 hours/25218 cycles. Average about 1200 cycles a year. 24800 cycles left. About 21 years.
820DX 17 years old. As of July 2020, 42893 hours/22251 cycles. Average about 1300 cycles a year. 27750 cycles left. About 21 years.
 
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seahawk
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:27 am

AB73PMI wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What a liability. A paid-off, reliable and economic fleet...


I question the reliable and economic part.


Delta MRO has so far kept those birds operating without any noticeable deviation from the fleet average. And considering they still have A320CEOs and 737NGs in the fleet, the 757 should be reasonable economic, if scheduled on suitable routes. But even, if they would have a fuel burn disadvantage, they are still paid for and can be parked or sold of without any major problems. If such a fleet is the biggest liability a airline has today, they must be extremely happy.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 am

You can buy a lot of fuel (and maintenance) for the payment on a new airplane. Delta has been more reluctant than most other airlines to buy shiny new planes, frequently buying used and then keeping them for a LOOONG time. In times of uncertainty (which is really all the time) this is a smart strategy. Owned airplanes are much less painful to park than leased or not yet paid for ones. When demand picks up used ones can be placed in service much quicker than new ones. And new ones can be ordered based on demand forecasts that reality can suddenly crap all over. Does anyone seriously think that COVID will be the last major shock to the entire system? I for one don’t. While someone has to buy new planes as overall demand is increasing, Delta has often said let it be the other guy. And this strategy seems to have served them well. I don’t see them changing it.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:47 pm

How does the average age and cycles of DL's 757 fleet compare to the age / cycles of the A320s?

I think the A320 could be just as vulnerable as the 757, if not more so, because DL can easily replace A320s with A321s on routes that have higher demand, or replace them with 737-800s and -900s on slower growing routes.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:49 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Airfleets shows an average age of 23.3 year, with 12 out of 127 30 years+.

I know that is only a limited guide, but some of these are likely to have a lot of hours/cycles. Roughly how many cycles a year would they be using up.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... gue-damage

Is it likely that they will retire some of the oldest, and part them out, with top up orders to maintain the amount of lift as the world moves out of COVID?.


The 757 has a flight length sensitive threshold curve between 50K cycles and 120K Flight Hours.
[...]
This is the closest to a realistic inflection point in maintenance costs for the 757. Given how Delta has a tendency to retire 757s at 30-32 years, I suspect they likely are reaching that threshold which can cause maintenance costs to jump.


Unlikely they're anywhere near 50k cycles or 120,000 hours, based on a random sampling:

651DL 31.9 years old. As of Nov 2020, 89692 hours/38751 cycles. Average a bit more than 1200 cycles a year; 11300 cycles left. About 9 years.
6707A 21.1 years old. As of April 2020, 67502 hours/25218 cycles. Average about 1200 cycles a year. 24800 cycles left. About 21 years.
820DX 17 years old. As of July 2020, 42893 hours/22251 cycles. Average about 1300 cycles a year. 27750 cycles left. About 21 years.


Actually 90K hours and 38K cycles is right about at the Flight Length Sensitive curve if you look at the referenced link page 9

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FAA-2 ... ment_1.pdf

The limit is between 60K hours and 120K hours depending on cycles. Maintenance costs go up significant for airplanes that reach that threshold. The 757 maintenance costs are competitive with other narrowbodies up until that point which is why many get retired then. Some 757s fly behind that point and can get all the way to limit of validity.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:27 pm

777Mech wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

But.. the 757 maintenance programs and processes always looked more like wide body programs than being competitive with narrowbodies. 30+ years old 757s need real heavy check$.. And they were never real fuel efficient. Reliability? At what costs?


I find your statements about maintenance and reliability confusing and inaccurate

First off, Delta isn’t doing heavy check maintenance on 757s that are 30+ years old. Delta is consistently retiring 757s right around 30-31 years old. Delta’s youngest 757s are only 17 years old.

Secondly, the statement that the 757 looks more like widebody maintenance programs isn’t true. The 757 has an MSG-3 program. Delta isn’t doing D Checks. They have L and H checks. The 757 airframe is fairly robust. According to the reported metrics below, the 757 has lower maintenance costs per available seat mile for Delta than the A320

https://www.planestats.com/bhsn_2017dec

Delta Maintenance costs in cents per ASM
717 2.08
A319 1.59
A320 1.33
A321 1.16
MD80 1.21
737-700 1.74
737-800 1.26
737-900 1.11
757-200 1.05


If we compare cost per block hour the 737-800, 757-200 and A320 for Delta are pretty similar ($805 vs $816 vs $777) and remember that the 757 has more seats and is bigger which brings down maintenance cost per ASM. If we compare a brand new A321 or 737-900ER, of course maintenance costs for newer planes are lower. The 757 maintenance costs are similar to other narrowbodies of a similar age. This is one of the reasons why a higher percentage of 25 or 30 year old 757s are flying than A320s.

When we compare 757 schedule reliability to other airplanes, the 757 is competitive at Delta. While not one of the best fleets, it’s more reliable than the A320s (which are of similar age) in the Delta fleet ore-COVID

Image

Source https://airinsight.com/deltas-a220s-schedule-struggle/

So in conclusion the 757 for Delta has similar or better maintenance costs (depending on if you look at block hour or per cost per ASM) to other similar aged narrowbodies in the fleet and similar reliability. Maintenance costs are not a liability for the 757 at Delta.


Except they will be putting 30+ year old 757s into heavy checks. 660 for instance should be going early next year. There are zero 757s scheduled to leave the fleet as it stands now. All of the 75Ds will get IFC as well, so it's a vote of confidence for the fleet.



If Delta is putting 30+ year old 757s into heavy check, I believe that is a change from pre-COVID since those airplanes are at or above the Flight Length Sensitive inspection thresholds. If we look at Airfleets data, Delta was fairly consistent in retiring 757s around 30-32 years old. Maintenance costs go up at that point, so if Delta is indeed planning on flying 757s beyond that limit then they must be in need of domestic lift post MD88/90 retirement. Heavy checks beyond the FLS threshold can be a Million Dollars or more due to the invasive structures inspection requirements as well as de-escalation of the maintenance program depending on finding. An excellent corrosion prevention program can reduce those costs.
 
Tiredofhumanity
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:42 pm

NLINK wrote:
Delta Air Lines has older 737-800 and 320-200 in service now.


This is the first thing that comes to my mind whenever I see these videos about Delta's 757's... and it's not like the 757 is much older than the A320 CEO when the types were first certified :roll: .
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Tiredofhumanity wrote:
NLINK wrote:
Delta Air Lines has older 737-800 and 320-200 in service now.


This is the first thing that comes to my mind whenever I see these videos about Delta's 757's... and it's not like the 757 is much older than the A320 CEO when the types were first certified :roll: .



I agree, and in this whole 321 vs 757 argument, people forget that the 320 and 757 are only like 5 years apart, so they are both technically antiquated designs. Why should DL order the 321XLR if it is technically an antiquated design and these people are bragging that it is the newest and innovative thing ever. (Not dissing the 321XLR, but the 320 and 757 are barely 5 years apart, so the argument becomes moot).
 
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Revelation
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:32 pm

It's not as simple as A320 and 757 had EIS five years apart.

Boeing was the incumbent. 757 started out as a 727 replacement. It was going to have a steam gauge cockpit till someone realized it'd be cheaper overall to just use the 767 cockpit tech.

Airbus was the new entry. A320 needed to impress. It of course had FBW and a glass cockpit right from the start.

It wasn't just about market approach, those five years really were the time where microprocessors became a big thing. The 757's first flight was one year after the release of the first IBM PC, for instance.

The world was changing fast, and Airbus got a lot of benefit from being five years newer, IMO.
 
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Revelation
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:36 pm

catiii wrote:
What credibility does the person in the video have? I work in the industry and have never heard of him.

None, but that doesn't seem to matter. Here we have a thread saying this video doesn't have credibility and does have a click bait title, let's discuss it anyways. Seems to me the site is crossing some lines it used to not cross, IMO.
 
mxaxai
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
It wasn't just about market approach, those five years really were the time where microprocessors became a big thing. The 757's first flight was one year after the release of the first IBM PC, for instance.

The world was changing fast, and Airbus got a lot of benefit from being five years newer, IMO.

It also gave the A320 an edge in CFD and aerodynamics as well as CAD. Boeing adopted CATIA first in 1984. CATIA v2 came in 1985, and v3 in 1988. You see Boeing making full use of all these new technologies on the 777, their first 100% computer designed and FBW aircraft.

Airbus has also been working on improving the A320 while the 757 is stuck with early 2000s tech.
 
ScottB
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:32 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.

NZ321 wrote:
So, where does carbon footprint start to kick in ?


Carbon footprint will matter when the government starts raising the cost of using fossil fuels. That's pretty much a non-starter politically in the U.S. -- the domestic market where Delta uses its 757s primarily. Maybe a carbon tax on jet fuel could be enacted since the public doesn't directly see the cost like they do at a gas pump. But for right now and the next few years the price of a barrel of oil is the more direct risk.

reltney wrote:
Also the 767 retirement is now on hold as Europe comes back to normal.


Yeah, I don't quite get why people think that a plan to retire the 767s in 2025 is absolutely set in stone. That's far enough out that visibility into future market conditions is poor. Any current plan is the plan until they change their minds in some future filing. Now, if they were to have a contract in hand with someone to take the frames, that might be different.

admanager wrote:
That new layout clusters Economy Comfort around the lav at L2. I cant for the life of me figure out why they did this. I get cutting the size of F, but bathroom sounds, smells, limited recline seats and a high percentage of narrow seats with in armrest tv’s make the -200 my last choice on Delta.


Well, beforehand the last row of F was next to the lav, so it's not like that was any better. And you're always going to have those seats with tray tables in the armrest (the TVs fold underneath the seat) at the front of EC or at the boarding door. There's a trade-off in that those seats typically have great legroom, even if there's no underseat stowage. And being near 2L means you'll typically be among the first passengers off the plane at most DL stations.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:44 pm

ScottB wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.

NZ321 wrote:
So, where does carbon footprint start to kick in ?


Carbon footprint will matter when the government starts raising the cost of using fossil fuels. That's pretty much a non-starter politically in the U.S. -- the domestic market where Delta uses its 757s primarily. Maybe a carbon tax on jet fuel could be enacted since the public doesn't directly see the cost like they do at a gas pump. But for right now and the next few years the price of a barrel of oil is the more direct risk.

reltney wrote:
Also the 767 retirement is now on hold as Europe comes back to normal.


Yeah, I don't quite get why people think that a plan to retire the 767s in 2025 is absolutely set in stone. That's far enough out that visibility into future market conditions is poor. Any current plan is the plan until they change their minds in some future filing. Now, if they were to have a contract in hand with someone to take the frames, that might be different.

admanager wrote:
That new layout clusters Economy Comfort around the lav at L2. I cant for the life of me figure out why they did this. I get cutting the size of F, but bathroom sounds, smells, limited recline seats and a high percentage of narrow seats with in armrest tv’s make the -200 my last choice on Delta.


Well, beforehand the last row of F was next to the lav, so it's not like that was any better. And you're always going to have those seats with tray tables in the armrest (the TVs fold underneath the seat) at the front of EC or at the boarding door. There's a trade-off in that those seats typically have great legroom, even if there's no underseat stowage. And being near 2L means you'll typically be among the first passengers off the plane at most DL stations.


Yeah I don't fully believe some of those future "retirement" plans that were announced in 2020.
Obviously the MD88, MD90, 73G, 777s are gone.

However, we saw DL "unretire" 5 of the 10 A320s they "announced" to be retired in 2020. Only reason they were initially to be retired is they were next-up for heavy maintenance in 2020. If the business case works out, all it takes is a "stroke of a pen" of SVP level sign-off, and unpickle those aircraft and ferry them down to SAL for maintenance.
Same thing with some of the 767s, they brought some of that were earmarked for retirement ones back out of the desert, and they are flying them until they are due for heavy maintenance.

I'm not fully bought-off on all of the CR2s being gone by 2023 or the 717s gone by 2025 either.
DL originally indicated they would fly 30-45 717s through at least 2022 last year. Then in Q1 2021, they indicated in the 10Q they had 50 717s in the fleet. Now, as of today they are at 51-52 active frames. It will be interesting to see if they bring back any more 717s or if any go. Who knows, since the 717s are orphan and there isn't much of market out there, DL could maybe get bargain basement lease rates on them. Not saying they are going to ever get all 91 back in service again, but who knows if they could get the fleet back up to 60+ again?

Things are very fluid these days obviously.
 
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Polot
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:41 pm

ScottB wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.

It’s only the MD-90s parked significantly earlier than planned. Even without covid the MD-80s would have been gone now (although Delta would also have had A321neos now as well); their retirement timetable was only moved up 6ish months.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:57 pm

ScottB wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.


I didn't intend to imply that the 321 on order would be 1:1 replacements of the 757 fleet. Yes, some of the capacity on order will be used to retire other aircraft, and others will be used to restore capacity / for expansion, but many (and probably most) will be used to begin phasing out the 757. Nearly 30 B752 were delivered in the 2000s, and a larger number were delivered in the late 1990s (and the ex-NW aircraft spent much of their time either operating across the Atlantic, or rotating in/out of Asia for Interport services, so they likely have low cycles) -- presumably these aircraft won't be up for renewal for several years.

But my comment is a response to the perpetual threads, blogs and now YouTube videos falsely commentating that DL has a 757 / 767 problem, because the aircraft are rapidly aging and have no suitable replacements. They completely ignore the large number of 321, 339 and 359 on order, as well the facts that the industry - including DL - has been upgauging in recent years. As I said before, unfortunately, I believe it's largely related to a thirst for a Boeing order -- if DL had ordered the MAX and 787, we simply wouldn't be having these discussions.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I'm not fully bought-off on all of the CR2s being gone by 2023 or the 717s gone by 2025 either.
DL originally indicated they would fly 30-45 717s through at least 2022 last year. Then in Q1 2021, they indicated in the 10Q they had 50 717s in the fleet. Now, as of today they are at 51-52 active frames. It will be interesting to see if they bring back any more 717s or if any go. Who knows, since the 717s are orphan and there isn't much of market out there, DL could maybe get bargain basement lease rates on them. Not saying they are going to ever get all 91 back in service again, but who knows if they could get the fleet back up to 60+ again?

Things are very fluid these days obviously.


I'm certain that DL can get the 717 for roughly its scrap value, but the issue seems to be a combination of swelling labor and maintenance costs. Even prior to COVID, there was heavy discussion that DL had scrapped its plans to update the cockpits and cabins, and instead phase the type out.
Last edited by WidebodyPTV on Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N649DL
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:28 pm

Polot wrote:
ScottB wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.

It’s only the MD-90s parked significantly earlier than planned. Even without covid the MD-80s would have been gone now (although Delta would also have had A321neos now as well); their retirement timetable was only moved up 6ish months.


The M90s were dumped early for one reason: Lack of Engine Parts. They were hard to find and became very costly to maintain. However, when they got rid of them early it really didn't matter because I think DL acquired many of them from Asian carriers 2nd hand (initially I think to accelerate the retirement of the ex-NW D95s.) DL also got lucky and was able to acquire the ex-Air Tran 717s in what seemed like a spur of the moment type deal, but I have no idea how the maintenance costs compare to the M90 or M88.

DL doesn't seem like it has any intention to retire the existing 757 fleet. If so, it would have been during COVID-19 like AA did. Still surprised DL has invested so much into the older A320s as they do timeout with cycles faster than the 757 in terms of frames (I think.)
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:43 pm

N649DL wrote:
DL doesn't seem like it has any intention to retire the existing 757 fleet. If so, it would have been during COVID-19 like AA did. Still surprised DL has invested so much into the older A320s as they do timeout with cycles faster than the 757 in terms of frames (I think.)


That's a logical fallacy. At the time of their retirement, AA had 34 B757. DL has 127. If DL's fleet of 757 was that small, it would've likely retired the type as well. But no, those older 320 and the B757 won't operate indefinitely -- again, DL has 132 shiny new A321 on order that's the first step in replacing many of these jets.

The M90s were dumped early for one reason: Lack of Engine Parts. They were hard to find and became very costly to maintain. However, when they got rid of them early it really didn't matter because I think DL acquired many of them from Asian carriers 2nd hand (initially I think to accelerate the retirement of the ex-NW D95s.) DL also got lucky and was able to acquire the ex-Air Tran 717s in what seemed like a spur of the moment type deal, but I have no idea how the maintenance costs compare to the M90 or M88.


The MD-90 were phased out because their overall maintenance costs had become cost prohibitive. We have/had some TechOps employees/fans on this forum that focused heavily on the engines, but credible sources had long reported that the cost of parts had become prohibitive, and certain parts on the jets were prone to break down. The 757 has none of these problems.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:12 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
N649DL wrote:
DL doesn't seem like it has any intention to retire the existing 757 fleet. If so, it would have been during COVID-19 like AA did. Still surprised DL has invested so much into the older A320s as they do timeout with cycles faster than the 757 in terms of frames (I think.)


That's a logical fallacy. At the time of their retirement, AA had 34 B757. DL has 127. If DL's fleet of 757 was that small, it would've likely retired the type as well. But no, those older 320 and the B757 won't operate indefinitely -- again, DL has 132 shiny new A321 on order that's the first step in replacing many of these jets.

The M90s were dumped early for one reason: Lack of Engine Parts. They were hard to find and became very costly to maintain. However, when they got rid of them early it really didn't matter because I think DL acquired many of them from Asian carriers 2nd hand (initially I think to accelerate the retirement of the ex-NW D95s.) DL also got lucky and was able to acquire the ex-Air Tran 717s in what seemed like a spur of the moment type deal, but I have no idea how the maintenance costs compare to the M90 or M88.


The MD-90 were phased out because their overall maintenance costs had become cost prohibitive. We have/had some TechOps employees/fans on this forum that focused heavily on the engines, but credible sources had long reported that the cost of parts had become prohibitive, and certain parts on the jets were prone to break down. The 757 has none of these problems.


Incorrect. DL has 90 757-200 (I'm not counting the -300 since they are significantly younger and used differently.)

How are 34 757 at AA not a large enough fleet to hold onto? UA only held onto 41 757 (operating only 21 of them right now) after dumping the 15 PMUA 757 during the pandemic.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:21 am

From a very frequent flyer's perspective, the DL 757's are fine with me. The plane I dislike the most are their 737-800s.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:12 am

N649DL wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
N649DL wrote:
DL doesn't seem like it has any intention to retire the existing 757 fleet. If so, it would have been during COVID-19 like AA did. Still surprised DL has invested so much into the older A320s as they do timeout with cycles faster than the 757 in terms of frames (I think.)


That's a logical fallacy. At the time of their retirement, AA had 34 B757. DL has 127. If DL's fleet of 757 was that small, it would've likely retired the type as well. But no, those older 320 and the B757 won't operate indefinitely -- again, DL has 132 shiny new A321 on order that's the first step in replacing many of these jets.

The M90s were dumped early for one reason: Lack of Engine Parts. They were hard to find and became very costly to maintain. However, when they got rid of them early it really didn't matter because I think DL acquired many of them from Asian carriers 2nd hand (initially I think to accelerate the retirement of the ex-NW D95s.) DL also got lucky and was able to acquire the ex-Air Tran 717s in what seemed like a spur of the moment type deal, but I have no idea how the maintenance costs compare to the M90 or M88.


The MD-90 were phased out because their overall maintenance costs had become cost prohibitive. We have/had some TechOps employees/fans on this forum that focused heavily on the engines, but credible sources had long reported that the cost of parts had become prohibitive, and certain parts on the jets were prone to break down. The 757 has none of these problems.


Incorrect. DL has 90 757-200 (I'm not counting the -300 since they are significantly younger and used differently.)

How are 34 757 at AA not a large enough fleet to hold onto? UA only held onto 41 757 (operating only 21 of them right now) after dumping the 15 PMUA 757 during the pandemic.


United also has 21 757-300s which are essential for the Hawaii market. The 757-300 has significant commonality with the 757-200 and is a fantastic airplane for flights to Hawaii where turn time isn’t that critical and the huge cargo hold is available. The 757-300 fleets will likely result in Delta and a United keeping 757s around longer than other passenger airlines.

The PMUA PW 757-200 Subfleet was the configured for the transcon premium market which were retired in the pandemic. While the airplanes were maintained meticulously for years by the JFK mechanics that saw the exact same planes everyday, they were actually the oldest 757-200s in the UA fleet. When UA switched from 767s To 757s for transcon routes, they chose the oldest ones since they knew they’d be flying low cycles. Oddly enough because of the seat configuration they lasted longer than the newer PW 757s that were sold to FedEx for freighter conversions.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:09 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
From a very frequent flyer's perspective, the DL 757's are fine with me. The plane I dislike the most are their 737-800s.


Agree with you there!! The 738s are getting to the point, it's their turn for cabin refurb hopefully. I don't think there's another narrowbody fleet that hasn't gotten some form of refresh since the 738's got their last batch of TLC.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:54 pm

He mentions in the video that analysts says that because of covid 19, the coimmercial aviation demand might not return to full until the 2030's ... I find that to be a way negative view on the situation. Commercial aviation will bounce back way more faster than that in my opinion.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:02 pm

Mortyman wrote:
He mentions in the video that analysts says that because of covid 19, the coimmercial aviation demand might not return to full until the 2030's ... I find that to be a way negative view on the situation. Commercial aviation will bounce back way more faster than that in my opinion.


I fully agree with your comment. "The analysts" could literally mean just 1 while the others don't share that view, everyone has a different view. I haven't heard once since this whole thing began of the 2030s being talked about for recovery so that right there makes me question this guys sources. That's 9+ years
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:13 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
FlyingJhawk wrote:
From a very frequent flyer's perspective, the DL 757's are fine with me. The plane I dislike the most are their 737-800s.


Agree with you there!! The 738s are getting to the point, it's their turn for cabin refurb hopefully. I don't think there's another narrowbody fleet that hasn't gotten some form of refresh since the 738's got their last batch of TLC.



Didn’t the 738s just get a cabin refresh beginning in 2016? https://news.delta.com/delta-improve-pa ... y-aircraft

All show complete with mod:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-a ... ad-19.html
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:13 pm

777luver wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
He mentions in the video that analysts says that because of covid 19, the coimmercial aviation demand might not return to full until the 2030's ... I find that to be a way negative view on the situation. Commercial aviation will bounce back way more faster than that in my opinion.


I fully agree with your comment. "The analysts" could literally mean just 1 while the others don't share that view, everyone has a different view. I haven't heard once since this whole thing began of the 2030s being talked about for recovery so that right there makes me question this guys sources. That's 9+ years


The analysts/pundits are referring to business travelers, not leisure travelers traveling across the country on a $69 ticket to Las Vegas. Southwest’s CEO is among those who’ve recently said it could take 10 years for business travel to return to 2019 levels.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:03 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
FlyingJhawk wrote:
From a very frequent flyer's perspective, the DL 757's are fine with me. The plane I dislike the most are their 737-800s.


Agree with you there!! The 738s are getting to the point, it's their turn for cabin refurb hopefully. I don't think there's another narrowbody fleet that hasn't gotten some form of refresh since the 738's got their last batch of TLC.



Didn’t the 738s just get a cabin refresh beginning in 2016? https://news.delta.com/delta-improve-pa ... y-aircraft

All show complete with mod:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-a ... ad-19.html


SOME (not all) got a refresh, but not a complete refurb the way the 757s and Airbuses got. More like a bit of (nice) lipstick. It resolved a lot of inconsistencies among the 738 fleet (i.e. all 738s now have IFE, but not necessarily the same IFE system). Seats on a lot of the 738s are in need of replacement.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:09 pm

Many of the F seats on 738s are tired. I don't mind even if they have the old first-gen IFE, still a comfy ride but these planes got Delta through the period when 739s were not on property yet to take some of those intercontinental routes

As for the 757 video, it's a Cody vid. When simple flying is considered higher quality than that, you know how low you really are.
 
N649DL
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:20 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:

Agree with you there!! The 738s are getting to the point, it's their turn for cabin refurb hopefully. I don't think there's another narrowbody fleet that hasn't gotten some form of refresh since the 738's got their last batch of TLC.



Didn’t the 738s just get a cabin refresh beginning in 2016? https://news.delta.com/delta-improve-pa ... y-aircraft

All show complete with mod:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-a ... ad-19.html


SOME (not all) got a refresh, but not a complete refurb the way the 757s and Airbuses got. More like a bit of (nice) lipstick. It resolved a lot of inconsistencies among the 738 fleet (i.e. all 738s now have IFE, but not necessarily the same IFE system). Seats on a lot of the 738s are in need of replacement.


True. I just flew BOS-LAX and it indeed was on one of the older 738 with the small and slow AVOD screens.
 
gsg013
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:06 pm

N649DL wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


Didn’t the 738s just get a cabin refresh beginning in 2016? https://news.delta.com/delta-improve-pa ... y-aircraft

All show complete with mod:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-a ... ad-19.html


SOME (not all) got a refresh, but not a complete refurb the way the 757s and Airbuses got. More like a bit of (nice) lipstick. It resolved a lot of inconsistencies among the 738 fleet (i.e. all 738s now have IFE, but not necessarily the same IFE system). Seats on a lot of the 738s are in need of replacement.


True. I just flew BOS-LAX and it indeed was on one of the older 738 with the small and slow AVOD screens.


Some 737-8 have the new seats and new AVOD, the ones with the old seats are actually significantly more comfortable (more padding) in F but those old screens are pretty grubby and old.
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:12 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:

Agree with you there!! The 738s are getting to the point, it's their turn for cabin refurb hopefully. I don't think there's another narrowbody fleet that hasn't gotten some form of refresh since the 738's got their last batch of TLC.



Didn’t the 738s just get a cabin refresh beginning in 2016? https://news.delta.com/delta-improve-pa ... y-aircraft

All show complete with mod:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-a ... ad-19.html


SOME (not all) got a refresh, but not a complete refurb the way the 757s and Airbuses got. More like a bit of (nice) lipstick. It resolved a lot of inconsistencies among the 738 fleet (i.e. all 738s now have IFE, but not necessarily the same IFE system). Seats on a lot of the 738s are in need of replacement.


The ones I've been on are not updated at all. Small overhead bins, the IFE screen is tiny and outdated, and the seats are definitely in need of replacement. Frankly I'd prefer a 3 hour ride in an E175 before one of these a/c. And yeah I know some of their 75s have the same IFE but the seats and bins are much better.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:21 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
ScottB wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL has 133 shiny new A321 on order that will presumably replace much of the 757 fleet...


Those shiny new A321s on order are more immediately needed to backfill the capacity parked when the MD-88s and MD-90s were parked early due to Covid impacts. There are some rather elderly A320s in the fleet which will also need replacement soon.

NZ321 wrote:
So, where does carbon footprint start to kick in ?


Carbon footprint will matter when the government starts raising the cost of using fossil fuels. That's pretty much a non-starter politically in the U.S. -- the domestic market where Delta uses its 757s primarily. Maybe a carbon tax on jet fuel could be enacted since the public doesn't directly see the cost like they do at a gas pump. But for right now and the next few years the price of a barrel of oil is the more direct risk.

reltney wrote:
Also the 767 retirement is now on hold as Europe comes back to normal.


Yeah, I don't quite get why people think that a plan to retire the 767s in 2025 is absolutely set in stone. That's far enough out that visibility into future market conditions is poor. Any current plan is the plan until they change their minds in some future filing. Now, if they were to have a contract in hand with someone to take the frames, that might be different.

admanager wrote:
That new layout clusters Economy Comfort around the lav at L2. I cant for the life of me figure out why they did this. I get cutting the size of F, but bathroom sounds, smells, limited recline seats and a high percentage of narrow seats with in armrest tv’s make the -200 my last choice on Delta.


Well, beforehand the last row of F was next to the lav, so it's not like that was any better. And you're always going to have those seats with tray tables in the armrest (the TVs fold underneath the seat) at the front of EC or at the boarding door. There's a trade-off in that those seats typically have great legroom, even if there's no underseat stowage. And being near 2L means you'll typically be among the first passengers off the plane at most DL stations.


Yeah I don't fully believe some of those future "retirement" plans that were announced in 2020.
Obviously the MD88, MD90, 73G, 777s are gone.

However, we saw DL "unretire" 5 of the 10 A320s they "announced" to be retired in 2020. Only reason they were initially to be retired is they were next-up for heavy maintenance in 2020. If the business case works out, all it takes is a "stroke of a pen" of SVP level sign-off, and unpickle those aircraft and ferry them down to SAL for maintenance.
Same thing with some of the 767s, they brought some of that were earmarked for retirement ones back out of the desert, and they are flying them until they are due for heavy maintenance.

I'm not fully bought-off on all of the CR2s being gone by 2023 or the 717s gone by 2025 either.
DL originally indicated they would fly 30-45 717s through at least 2022 last year. Then in Q1 2021, they indicated in the 10Q they had 50 717s in the fleet. Now, as of today they are at 51-52 active frames. It will be interesting to see if they bring back any more 717s or if any go. Who knows, since the 717s are orphan and there isn't much of market out there, DL could maybe get bargain basement lease rates on them. Not saying they are going to ever get all 91 back in service again, but who knows if they could get the fleet back up to 60+ again?

Things are very fluid these days obviously.


I guess you are right, but why were they even announced if they were likely to be put on hold, pushed back, or even unlikely to happen? I guess the market was in that much despair back then. I also think the 717s will be the next MD-90s in terms of place in the DL fleet (i.e likely based out of short routes from ATL, orphan engine/cockpit, niche market, but also somewhat efficient.)
 
DeltaRules
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:48 am

N649DL wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
N649DL wrote:
DL doesn't seem like it has any intention to retire the existing 757 fleet. If so, it would have been during COVID-19 like AA did. Still surprised DL has invested so much into the older A320s as they do timeout with cycles faster than the 757 in terms of frames (I think.)


That's a logical fallacy. At the time of their retirement, AA had 34 B757. DL has 127. If DL's fleet of 757 was that small, it would've likely retired the type as well. But no, those older 320 and the B757 won't operate indefinitely -- again, DL has 132 shiny new A321 on order that's the first step in replacing many of these jets.

The M90s were dumped early for one reason: Lack of Engine Parts. They were hard to find and became very costly to maintain. However, when they got rid of them early it really didn't matter because I think DL acquired many of them from Asian carriers 2nd hand (initially I think to accelerate the retirement of the ex-NW D95s.) DL also got lucky and was able to acquire the ex-Air Tran 717s in what seemed like a spur of the moment type deal, but I have no idea how the maintenance costs compare to the M90 or M88.


The MD-90 were phased out because their overall maintenance costs had become cost prohibitive. We have/had some TechOps employees/fans on this forum that focused heavily on the engines, but credible sources had long reported that the cost of parts had become prohibitive, and certain parts on the jets were prone to break down. The 757 has none of these problems.


Incorrect. DL has 90 757-200 (I'm not counting the -300 since they are significantly younger and used differently.)

How are 34 757 at AA not a large enough fleet to hold onto? UA only held onto 41 757 (operating only 21 of them right now) after dumping the 15 PMUA 757 during the pandemic.


They have 91 active and 20 parked, a mix of passenger and NBA/NHL charter planes; only two appear to be the NBA birds (651, 663). I saw one of the Skyteam 757s parked on one of the taxiways to 28/10 at ATL a couple weeks ago.
 
Elementalism
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:54 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKXGGdVF0x4&lc=UgzM64YLSPhbkb9WPM14AaABAg.9OAV0nKK3H79ODEIOcp863&ab_channel=CobyExplanes

So says this video.

Since I knew that there would be quite a stir about this video, why not just make a thread about it. I mean, as a 757 fan, I'd hate to see the birds get replaced, but the points brought up in the video weren't all that irrational. Sure, it's not like a Reuters article or anything, but some of these points got me thinking.

- there are probably not many routes where a 757 can operate better than 321 series, and if there are, they'd probably be dropped
-as the 757 ages and has more cycles, maintenance will become harder.
- is not that fuel efficient anymore, so if they continue to run them, they'd run into problems with profitability, especially if it is the same route as an opposing airline's 321XLR/LR.
- A lot of the 767s will be gone in the near future, so it is almost an orphan cockpit group.

But then again, there are some points for keeping the 757 little longer
-With such a large fleet, I assume DL can get parts easier and maintenance would not be too big of an issue for the next few years.
- Though they are old, the onboard product is phenomenal.
- A lot of the 757-300s and some -200s are the last off the line and can be reliably flown till a few more D checks pass.
- the fleet is fully paid off and would be slightly cheaper to run a few more years than paying for spanking new day old planes
- Also, the 757 IS a performance beast...
- 753 has lowest CASM of all DL narrowbodies.

So, calling all the experts here, what do you guys think? Do you think that we could see an early retirement, like this video suggests? Or could they become the next NW DC-9s? Nothing against the creator of the video, but since I watched it, I thought it would make for a detailed thread.


Didnt watch the video. But if the 757 is Delta's biggest liability why does Delta keep them around? Im going to Hawaii in November. MSP --LAX 757-300 LAX-->OGG 757-200 HNL-->LAX 757-300 LAX--MSP 757-300

I fly to Orlando a bit for work from MSP. 757-200s and 300s. I drive by MSP at ~7AM every morning for work. 757s seem to be plentiful lining up for takeoff. It is kind of weird, what little flying I have done since COVID seems to be dominated by 757s at Delta. I did fly one A321 to FT Meyers last Oct /shrug
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:01 am

gsg013 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:

SOME (not all) got a refresh, but not a complete refurb the way the 757s and Airbuses got. More like a bit of (nice) lipstick. It resolved a lot of inconsistencies among the 738 fleet (i.e. all 738s now have IFE, but not necessarily the same IFE system). Seats on a lot of the 738s are in need of replacement.


True. I just flew BOS-LAX and it indeed was on one of the older 738 with the small and slow AVOD screens.


Some 737-8 have the new seats and new AVOD, the ones with the old seats are actually significantly more comfortable (more padding) in F but those old screens are pretty grubby and old.



What is a 737-8?
 
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N62NA
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:57 am

NLINK wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

True. I just flew BOS-LAX and it indeed was on one of the older 738 with the small and slow AVOD screens.


Some 737-8 have the new seats and new AVOD, the ones with the old seats are actually significantly more comfortable (more padding) in F but those old screens are pretty grubby and old.



What is a 737-8?


737-800.
 
Tiredofhumanity
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:23 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It wasn't just about market approach, those five years really were the time where microprocessors became a big thing. The 757's first flight was one year after the release of the first IBM PC, for instance.

The world was changing fast, and Airbus got a lot of benefit from being five years newer, IMO.

It also gave the A320 an edge in CFD and aerodynamics as well as CAD. Boeing adopted CATIA first in 1984. CATIA v2 came in 1985, and v3 in 1988. You see Boeing making full use of all these new technologies on the 777, their first 100% computer designed and FBW aircraft.

Airbus has also been working on improving the A320 while the 757 is stuck with early 2000s tech.


Both 757 variants are stuck in 1984 really - I thought the last major upgrades for the 757 were when the RB211 E4's and PW2000's were certified. The 753 had some FMC upgrades ported over from tbe NG I think, but not much else noteworthy.

I also would have thought more system and aerodynamic upgrades over the last 33 years would have made it to the base A320-200 frame, but they didn't... I guess priorities have changed after the 80's.
Last edited by Tiredofhumanity on Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N649DL
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:28 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKXGGdVF0x4&lc=UgzM64YLSPhbkb9WPM14AaABAg.9OAV0nKK3H79ODEIOcp863&ab_channel=CobyExplanes

So says this video.

Since I knew that there would be quite a stir about this video, why not just make a thread about it. I mean, as a 757 fan, I'd hate to see the birds get replaced, but the points brought up in the video weren't all that irrational. Sure, it's not like a Reuters article or anything, but some of these points got me thinking.

- there are probably not many routes where a 757 can operate better than 321 series, and if there are, they'd probably be dropped
-as the 757 ages and has more cycles, maintenance will become harder.
- is not that fuel efficient anymore, so if they continue to run them, they'd run into problems with profitability, especially if it is the same route as an opposing airline's 321XLR/LR.
- A lot of the 767s will be gone in the near future, so it is almost an orphan cockpit group.

But then again, there are some points for keeping the 757 little longer
-With such a large fleet, I assume DL can get parts easier and maintenance would not be too big of an issue for the next few years.
- Though they are old, the onboard product is phenomenal.
- A lot of the 757-300s and some -200s are the last off the line and can be reliably flown till a few more D checks pass.
- the fleet is fully paid off and would be slightly cheaper to run a few more years than paying for spanking new day old planes
- Also, the 757 IS a performance beast...
- 753 has lowest CASM of all DL narrowbodies.

So, calling all the experts here, what do you guys think? Do you think that we could see an early retirement, like this video suggests? Or could they become the next NW DC-9s? Nothing against the creator of the video, but since I watched it, I thought it would make for a detailed thread.


Didnt watch the video. But if the 757 is Delta's biggest liability why does Delta keep them around? Im going to Hawaii in November. MSP --LAX 757-300 LAX-->OGG 757-200 HNL-->LAX 757-300 LAX--MSP 757-300

I fly to Orlando a bit for work from MSP. 757-200s and 300s. I drive by MSP at ~7AM every morning for work. 757s seem to be plentiful lining up for takeoff. It is kind of weird, what little flying I have done since COVID seems to be dominated by 757s at Delta. I did fly one A321 to FT Meyers last Oct /shrug


Oddly enough, it seems like a lot of the DL 757-200 fleet are based on Florida routes right now especially between RSW/FLL/MCO/TPA and DTW/ATL/MSP etc.

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