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Boeing757100
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"Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKXGGdV ... byExplanes

So says this video.

Since I knew that there would be quite a stir about this video, why not just make a thread about it. I mean, as a 757 fan, I'd hate to see the birds get replaced, but the points brought up in the video weren't all that irrational. Sure, it's not like a Reuters article or anything, but some of these points got me thinking.

- there are probably not many routes where a 757 can operate better than 321 series, and if there are, they'd probably be dropped
-as the 757 ages and has more cycles, maintenance will become harder.
- is not that fuel efficient anymore, so if they continue to run them, they'd run into problems with profitability, especially if it is the same route as an opposing airline's 321XLR/LR.
- A lot of the 767s will be gone in the near future, so it is almost an orphan cockpit group.

But then again, there are some points for keeping the 757 little longer
-With such a large fleet, I assume DL can get parts easier and maintenance would not be too big of an issue for the next few years.
- Though they are old, the onboard product is phenomenal.
- A lot of the 757-300s and some -200s are the last off the line and can be reliably flown till a few more D checks pass.
- the fleet is fully paid off and would be slightly cheaper to run a few more years than paying for spanking new day old planes
- Also, the 757 IS a performance beast...
- 753 has lowest CASM of all DL narrowbodies.

So, calling all the experts here, what do you guys think? Do you think that we could see an early retirement, like this video suggests? Or could they become the next NW DC-9s? Nothing against the creator of the video, but since I watched it, I thought it would make for a detailed thread.
Last edited by Boeing757100 on Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cubsrule
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:40 am

Is the 753 not the lowest CASM narrowbody in the fleet? It’s got to be close.
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Boeing757100
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:45 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Is the 753 not the lowest CASM narrowbody in the fleet? It’s got to be close.




I believe it is. Good point, I'll add it in. :)
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0newair0
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:48 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Is the 753 not the lowest CASM narrowbody in the fleet? It’s got to be close.
It is for now.

321neo will beat it.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:53 am

The orphan pilot group line is rubbish when DL has so many 757, 753, 763 and 764. Check back in 2027.

U.S. carriers - all carriers subject to market investor forces - are going to be flying a lot of 15-25 year old planes. They are not economically obsolete.

I wouldn't be surprised if DL converted 25ish neo orders to XLRs - but I wouldn't be surprised by an order for Max 8 or 10s, either. DL's A320s are older than the 752s.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:02 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
The orphan pilot group line is rubbish when DL has so many 757, 753, 763 and 764. Check back in 2027.

U.S. carriers - all carriers subject to market investor forces - are going to be flying a lot of 15-25 year old planes. They are not economically obsolete.

I wouldn't be surprised if DL converted 25ish neo orders to XLRs - but I wouldn't be surprised by an order for Max 8 or 10s, either. DL's A320s are older than the 752s.



AFAIK, the 763s are gone by 2025 and probably a good chunk of the 752s sadly... Who knows honestly?
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Cubsrule
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Re:

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:39 am

0newair0 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Is the 753 not the lowest CASM narrowbody in the fleet? It’s got to be close.
It is for now.

321neo will beat it.


. . . If fuel prices go up. But if they stay low-ish? Much closer call.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:44 am

This YouTube clickbait and thread is dumb and lacks any real analysis.

I am not even going to waste my time to watch the video.

DL 757s are what they are. They are not any more of a liability than any other fleet type, especially when putting their age, utilization, mission, and longevity in perspective.

DL has so many later built 757s because of the combined NW and DL fleet.

The 757s work well for the time being on the route profile they are used and also for the fact they are increasingly becoming the flex fleet / variable capacity

With the current post covid financial position and debt load it doesn’t make sense to retire then early for the sake of retiring them early. Either way they will start to sunset later this decade.

/thread lock
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:49 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This YouTube clickbait and thread is dumb and lacks any real analysis.

I am not even going to waste my time to watch the video.

DL 757s are what they are. They are not any more of a liability than any other fleet type, especially when putting their age, utilization, mission, and longevity in perspective.

DL has so many later built 757s because of the combined NW and DL fleet.

The 757s work well for the time being on the route profile they are used and also for the fact they are increasingly becoming the flex fleet / variable capacity

With the current post covid financial position and debt load it doesn’t make sense to retire then early for the sake of retiring them early. Either way they will start to sunset later this decade.

/thread lock

If you didn’t watch it, how do you know it lacks analysis? Also, where in the video does it say they should retire them early?
Last edited by JoseSalazar on Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:51 am

Delta merged with Northwest Airlines and Northwest had learned how to squeeze every nickel out an aircraft, especially the DC-9. Boeing tried like hell to sell the 717 to replace the DC-9s to Northwest. I have a model of the 717 in Northwest's livery. Delta did retire Northwest's DC-9s except for the DC-9-51s which Delta repainted and flew them for awhile. Northwest operated the world's largest fleet of DC-9s which all were NEVER bought new. Northwest upgraded the interiors of the DC-9s to a similar type like the 717 and made a few other modifications also. The average passenger probably could not tell the difference between a Northwest DC-9 and a 717. This was Northwest's answer to Boeing. Northwest could upgrade a DC-9 and its operating cost was more but its total ownership cost was very much less. Delta as a result started acquiring used aircraft such as the MD-90, 717, 757 which Delta owns the very last 757s built which they bought used. Delta's total ownership cost has been less by owning and operating the afore mentioned aircraft which to repeat Delta acquired as many 757s they could buy or lease. Most of the TWA 757s they have are leased as TWA leased them and American Airlines did not want Pratt & Whitney powered 757s. Delta will fly the 757 until they become uneconomical to own and operate. Delta will canalbalize any 757 they retire and any other 757s in the desert. That will be Delta's answer to both Airbus and Boeing. Right now Delta is the driver's seat about what and when their 757s will be replaced. Delta may even buy different type used aircraft as replacements if Delta thinks it is necessary. Delta is capable of turning junk into fine jewelry like Northwest did with the DC-9s, DC-10-30s and some 727s which Northwest acquired used at below market prices. Delta's 757s are not a liability. They now are an asset. :old:
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FlyEndeavorAir
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:59 am

Wasn't there a video that came out not too long ago saying the 767's were Delta's biggest liability?

They might as well at this point go through their entire fleet. :roll:
 
UA857
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:18 am

Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.
 
NLINK
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:27 am

Delta Air Lines has older 737-800 and 320-200 in service now. The scale of economics of 16 757-300, 100 757-200 and operates the 11 757-200 charter planes is more than enough by itself to support a separate type. The 767-400er are operated as a different type at Delta. I think around 2025 or so you will see a replacement announced which I’m guessing like everyone else it will be the 321neo series as I’m guessing Boeing will never launch anything.
 
NLINK
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:33 am

UA857 wrote:
Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.



The only bad thing about the 338 is it is a orphaned fleet and the 339 operating costs are very close.

The original 330-900 order was for the 767-300er replacement.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:35 am

Unless fuel prices skyrocket and the economy also tanks would be the only situation that would doom the 757s. They are here for a while, and i think delta will need the capacity if the demand projections are accurate.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:55 am

Agrees lame title saying they are the biggest liability.

DL could park most of them tomorrow if conditions warranted but that would lop off a lot of domestic capacity.

They are a flex fleet approaching the twilight of their service life.

DL needs to get the full lifecycle out of their aircraft so running fleet types upwards of 30 years is necessary.

It’s not a liability, its called balanced fleet planning
 
UA857
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:09 am

NLINK wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.



The only bad thing about the 338 is it is a orphaned fleet and the 339 operating costs are very close.

The original 330-900 order was for the 767-300er replacement.


The A339 has too much seats to be a 763 replacement so the A338 fits in. Also won't DL provide a lifeline for the A338 by ordering 23 examples.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:51 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Agrees lame title saying they are the biggest liability.

DL could park most of them tomorrow if conditions warranted but that would lop off a lot of domestic capacity.

They are a flex fleet approaching the twilight of their service life.

DL needs to get the full lifecycle out of their aircraft so running fleet types upwards of 30 years is necessary.

It’s not a liability, its called balanced fleet planning

Today it's not a liability but someday in the future it will be. I'm sure DL can keep the 757s as long as they can maybe til 2030 if they tried or 2033 if they can make an aircraft last 35 years. But as you know cheap oil prices can't last forever either can parts. So its a liability once the parts become expensive to produce. Plenty of 320 and 737 parts still.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:10 am

What liability? 752 can be replaced by a321 at days notice, and 753 is rounding error for Delta.
 
dstblj52
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:01 am

UA857 wrote:
NLINK wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.



The only bad thing about the 338 is it is a orphaned fleet and the 339 operating costs are very close.

The original 330-900 order was for the 767-300er replacement.


The A339 has too much seats to be a 763 replacement so the A338 fits in. Also won't DL provide a lifeline for the A338 by ordering 23 examples.

thats how you get screwed buying a small batch of planes no one else wants that have higher casm, at new manufacturing price, might delta snap up used a338's sure but their arent many of them in the wild
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:04 am

If the 753 is really the lowest CASM narrow body Delta has .. then Delta is very likely making money on the aircraft and will keep them. If the A321NEO is really a lower CASM, then eventually Delta will replace the 753s with that.

I would wonder if the optimal fleet isn't a bunch of A321NEOs, plus some 753s. The A321s give lowest possible total cost as long as you can keep them busy, and Delta should have enough to do their base load of flying. The 753s give maximum flexibility at low-ish operating cost, and zero capital expense. Need some more lift for a week or a season, fly the 753s. Need to fly less because traffic is down. Park the 753s.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:13 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
The orphan pilot group line is rubbish when DL has so many 757, 753, 763 and 764. Check back in 2027.


Pretty sure 767-400 is a different "fleet type" at Delta...
 
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Re:

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:17 am

0newair0 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Is the 753 not the lowest CASM narrowbody in the fleet? It’s got to be close.
It is for now.

321neo will beat it.


Not with fuel prices now it isn't. If that was the case the NEO would have been on the property years ago.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:28 am

Lets add a bit of nuance here. The 757 is Delta's biggest liability because it doesn't have any 1 to 1 replacement for it. At the moment it probably is also one if their biggest assets, they are paid for and are extremely flexible, the large fleet count means DL can sustain its own ecosystem for a while.

People talk about the A321neo, the XLR and even the 338. Truth is its probably going to be a bit all all three. Smaller narrowbodies (A32X and 737 alike) will take up the domestic routes, the LATAM and transatlantic ones will probably be for LR/XLR etc.

But this is a fair bit away, DL will probably keep them for the better part of a decade and quite a few things can happen between now and then.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:58 am

What a liability. A paid-off, reliable and economic fleet...
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:24 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta merged with Northwest Airlines and Northwest had learned how to squeeze every nickel out an aircraft, especially the DC-9. Boeing tried like hell to sell the 717 to replace the DC-9s to Northwest. I have a model of the 717 in Northwest's livery. Delta did retire Northwest's DC-9s except for the DC-9-51s which Delta repainted and flew them for awhile. Northwest operated the world's largest fleet of DC-9s which all were NEVER bought new. Northwest upgraded the interiors of the DC-9s to a similar type like the 717 and made a few other modifications also. The average passenger probably could not tell the difference between a Northwest DC-9 and a 717. This was Northwest's answer to Boeing. Northwest could upgrade a DC-9 and its operating cost was more but its total ownership cost was very much less. Delta as a result started acquiring used aircraft such as the MD-90, 717, 757 which Delta owns the very last 757s built which they bought used. Delta's total ownership cost has been less by owning and operating the afore mentioned aircraft which to repeat Delta acquired as many 757s they could buy or lease. Most of the TWA 757s they have are leased as TWA leased them and American Airlines did not want Pratt & Whitney powered 757s. Delta will fly the 757 until they become uneconomical to own and operate. Delta will canalbalize any 757 they retire and any other 757s in the desert. That will be Delta's answer to both Airbus and Boeing. Right now Delta is the driver's seat about what and when their 757s will be replaced. Delta may even buy different type used aircraft as replacements if Delta thinks it is necessary. Delta is capable of turning junk into fine jewelry like Northwest did with the DC-9s, DC-10-30s and some 727s which Northwest acquired used at below market prices. Delta's 757s are not a liability. They now are an asset. :old:


I share your nineties redtail sympathies and probably experiences. NWA had a nearly complete DC9 maintenance infrastructure in place, a skilled sourcing department and smart procedures to make them always feel fresh for the passengers. KLM learned a lot from them and so inherited Delta.

But.. the 757 maintenance programs and processes always looked more like wide body programs than being competitive with narrowbodies. 30+ years old 757s need real heavy check$.. And they were never real fuel efficient. Reliability? At what costs?

If Airbus comes up with a XLR/A322 proposal, Delta will surely consider. Even though they would probably love "Boeing 322"s more. From a dual source, balancing fleet policy.. In that respect maybe the 737-10 stands a chance, if Boeing creates a real nice, low risk proposal
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SteelChair
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:20 am

seahawk wrote:
What a liability. A paid-off, reliable and economic fleet...


You forgot fuel efficient. Very fuel efficient. :D I guess economic covers that though.

I agree with other posters who have stated that the original assertion is ridiculous. If fact, it's amazing how much value the 757 continues to provide 35+ years after introduction.

Delta's biggest liability is that their flight attendants, mechanics, reservations agents, and airport agents could possibly someday unionize.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:58 am

PHLspecial wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Agrees lame title saying they are the biggest liability.

DL could park most of them tomorrow if conditions warranted but that would lop off a lot of domestic capacity.

They are a flex fleet approaching the twilight of their service life.

DL needs to get the full lifecycle out of their aircraft so running fleet types upwards of 30 years is necessary.

It’s not a liability, its called balanced fleet planning

Today it's not a liability but someday in the future it will be. I'm sure DL can keep the 757s as long as they can maybe til 2030 if they tried or 2033 if they can make an aircraft last 35 years. But as you know cheap oil prices can't last forever either can parts. So its a liability once the parts become expensive to produce. Plenty of 320 and 737 parts still.

Not a liability because they are going to start to be retired later this decade. The maintenance program and part supply chain is well known and robust and it’s not an orgasm fleet type. These things are a lot easier to plan for on the 757 versus what happened with the MD90 or 717.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:01 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Lets add a bit of nuance here. The 757 is Delta's biggest liability because it doesn't have any 1 to 1 replacement for it. At the moment it probably is also one if their biggest assets, they are paid for and are extremely flexible, the large fleet count means DL can sustain its own ecosystem for a while.

People talk about the A321neo, the XLR and even the 338. Truth is its probably going to be a bit all all three. Smaller narrowbodies (A32X and 737 alike) will take up the domestic routes, the LATAM and transatlantic ones will probably be for LR/XLR etc.

But this is a fair bit away, DL will probably keep them for the better part of a decade and quite a few things can happen between now and then.

DL could replace nearly everything flown today with the 757 with a combination of existing CEO fleet types or the A321 NEO. Other than a few niche routes but they aren’t critical or core to DLs network.

DL has to get full operational life out of their aircraft and doesn’t make economic sense to replace early in most cases.
They have so many 757s since DL and NW acquired so many in the late 90s early 00s
 
SteelChair
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:24 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They have so many 757s since DL and NW acquired so many in the late 90s early 00s


IIRC, right after the merger there was a brief time when over 200 757s were in service. Something like 8-9 different seating configurations.
 
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:07 pm

So, where does carbon footprint start to kick in ? The 757s may be supremely reliable and fun to fly - I can agree on that for sure - but at some point, this sizeable and loved fleet of 757s is going to start hitting hard on the bottom line. I reckon DL is going to bite the proverbial bullet and that we will see further NEO orders and a gradual 757 withdrawal. A still big unknown is the degree to which the market will recover / and therefore the number of aircraft to be acquired could be significantly less than envisaged. It is entirely possible, for example, that we may not see a full recovery in the near-medium term in quite a few markets. Long haul international travel, for instance, could be several years away from anything like what we have known it to be in the past decade. Indeed, notwithstanding the need for discretionary vfr traffic, it could be largely a thing of the past for the foreseeable future. All this will surely impact on feed and on DL's decisions around 757 replacement.
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AB73PMI
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
What a liability. A paid-off, reliable and economic fleet...


I question the reliable and economic part.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:41 pm

How can something with zero ownership cost be much of a liability? It is A380s and un-needed brand new aircraft that are airline liabilities at the moment. Consider DL and its A350s. Super expensive aircraft. Super not profitable so far.

If DL wanted to retire them, it would retire them.

And Yes, the 757 and 767 are in their final “season” of passenger service. But they are 40 year old platforms that have done a good job. DL itself would obviously say they are a satisfied LONG time customer of the type. The statement is mostly nonsense with a grain of truth that 757/767 will be retired gradually.
 
reltney
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:07 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The orphan pilot group line is rubbish when DL has so many 757, 753, 763 and 764. Check back in 2027.

U.S. carriers - all carriers subject to market investor forces - are going to be flying a lot of 15-25 year old planes. They are not economically obsolete.

I wouldn't be surprised if DL converted 25ish neo orders to XLRs - but I wouldn't be surprised by an order for Max 8 or 10s, either. DL's A320s are older than the 752s.



AFAIK, the 763s are gone by 2025 and probably a good chunk of the 752s sadly... Who knows honestly?



Well, I just picked up another 757 from our QRO Mx base in Mexico and they said delta has plans to keep the 757 thru 2030 as even the 321 neoxlrGT cannot match the 757 but admits its as close as it can get with what’s being built today. Deltas director of ops words. Also the 767 retirement is now on hold as Europe comes back to normal. The 767 is a good gap between the 757 and 330 and will be better on the thin Europe routes.

The age and the fact there is not an engine replacement in the thrust class needed to update the757 is its biggest problem according to Boeing.

Speculate all you want as facts speak for themselves.
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:23 pm

keesje wrote:

But.. the 757 maintenance programs and processes always looked more like wide body programs than being competitive with narrowbodies. 30+ years old 757s need real heavy check$.. And they were never real fuel efficient. Reliability? At what costs?


I find your statements about maintenance and reliability confusing and inaccurate

First off, Delta isn’t doing heavy check maintenance on 757s that are 30+ years old. Delta is consistently retiring 757s right around 30-31 years old. Delta’s youngest 757s are only 17 years old.

Secondly, the statement that the 757 looks more like widebody maintenance programs isn’t true. The 757 has an MSG-3 program. Delta isn’t doing D Checks. They have L and H checks. The 757 airframe is fairly robust. According to the reported metrics below, the 757 has lower maintenance costs per available seat mile for Delta than the A320

https://www.planestats.com/bhsn_2017dec

Delta Maintenance costs in cents per ASM
717 2.08
A319 1.59
A320 1.33
A321 1.16
MD80 1.21
737-700 1.74
737-800 1.26
737-900 1.11
757-200 1.05


If we compare cost per block hour the 737-800, 757-200 and A320 for Delta are pretty similar ($805 vs $816 vs $777) and remember that the 757 has more seats and is bigger which brings down maintenance cost per ASM. If we compare a brand new A321 or 737-900ER, of course maintenance costs for newer planes are lower. The 757 maintenance costs are similar to other narrowbodies of a similar age. This is one of the reasons why a higher percentage of 25 or 30 year old 757s are flying than A320s.

When we compare 757 schedule reliability to other airplanes, the 757 is competitive at Delta. While not one of the best fleets, it’s more reliable than the A320s (which are of similar age) in the Delta fleet ore-COVID

Image

Source https://airinsight.com/deltas-a220s-schedule-struggle/

So in conclusion the 757 for Delta has similar or better maintenance costs (depending on if you look at block hour or per cost per ASM) to other similar aged narrowbodies in the fleet and similar reliability. Maintenance costs are not a liability for the 757 at Delta.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
xdlx
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:24 pm

I remember when there was no replacement for the DC8 and DL Re-engine 13 of them and kept them flying.
EVEN if only 80 of the 757 in the fleet where worth a full "D-check" they could give DL an edge, with a completely re-designed interior updated amenities 30 years after launch Airbus STILL is unable to match this workhorse performance. Tech OPS could win a Collier for a Life Extending program for this unique aircraft.
 
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Revelation
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:03 pm

UA857 wrote:
NLINK wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta should consider ordering the A321XLR and A338 as a 752/763 replacement.

The only bad thing about the 338 is it is a orphaned fleet and the 339 operating costs are very close.

The original 330-900 order was for the 767-300er replacement.

The A339 has too much seats to be a 763 replacement so the A338 fits in. Also won't DL provide a lifeline for the A338 by ordering 23 examples.

That's the dilemma, it makes little sense to buy A338s just because you like the seat count, it still has the same sized wing and landing gear as does A339 so you get a lot of range but not much lower costs. Only advantage A330neo has is Airbus really needed a large order from a blue chip airline so DL got itself a lot of planes cheap and a lot of options cheap too. Oddball or not, they will be around for decades to come.
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alfa164
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:11 pm

reltney wrote:
Well, I just picked up another 757 from our QRO Mx base in Mexico and they said delta has plans to keep the 757 thru 2030 as even the 321 neoxlrGT cannot match the 757 but admits its as close as it can get with what’s being built today. Deltas director of ops words. Also the 767 retirement is now on hold as Europe comes back to normal. The 767 is a good gap between the 757 and 330 and will be better on the thin Europe routes.

The age and the fact there is not an engine replacement in the thrust class needed to update the757 is its biggest problem according to Boeing.

Speculate all you want as facts speak for themselves.


Thank you for the update! After all the comments from the armchair "experts" on A.net, it is refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows the plane - and knows what is going on.
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Prost
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:14 pm

So DL has been the last customer for the A321 ceo, I wonder if in 10-15 years we’ll be reading articles that the A321ceo is DLs biggest liability and what a mistake it was not to buy neos when they were available.

Regarding the 757, it’s fortunes seem to rise and fall with fuel prices. Prices are going up now, hence everyone thinks it’s days are numbered. Next year, if prices fall? What a brilliant move keeping the 757 in the fleet.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:12 pm

Here's the dirty truth: if DL had purchased the MAX and 787, we wouldn't be having these discussions. The reality is, DL has a large number of 321, 339 and 359 on order; once deliveries commence, the 757 and 767 will be rapidly drawn down. Of course, many of these aircraft will survive until the end of the decade or into the next: NW/DL took a large number of 757/767 in the late 1990s/early 2000s; these aircraft are still competitive economically, and the widespread global use (mostly as air freighters) assures that parts will be plentiful and affordable. This has long been the plan - very early (pre-COVID) last year, DL acknowledged that the record number of aircraft deliveries in 2018 & 2019 was an outlier, and would level off during this decade. For comparion's sake, the 330 delivered to NW average just a few years older than the 764.

Regarding the 767: globally, airlines replaced the 767 largely by upgauging to the 330, 777 and larger 787 variants. DL itself replaced most of the 763 flights at ATL and JFK with larger aircraft, through the years. The narrative within these forums is the 767 is the perfect aircraft for DL's network, but that's based on a fallacy. The reason DL has so many 767, is because many were intended for domestic use but DL couldn't make money within the domestic system, so they wound up doing long-haul. The 763 is hardly the ideal long-haul aircraft -- it's not going to accommodate the Suites or premium economy, and DL has talked about the economic challenges of low-capacity long-haul flights, as labor costs swelled. Pre-COVID, the number of 339 and 359 scheduled for delivery in a few short years was telling -- unless DL planned a massive expansion (and that wasn't going to happen), the 763's days were pretty much numbered. On another forum, a reliable source has indicated for a couple years that DL was shopping its late model 763 aircraft to freighters, and some of the 764 may wind up in the domestic configuration again, as it may have been the only way to grown ATL. Despite this forum's wishful thinking, DL was never holding out for the NMA -- it largely had its replacement. Irononiclly, the retirement of the 777 could breath new life into the 767 if markets pick up faster than anticipated.

I don't think YouTube videos that are designed for clicks by a content creator asking people to join his Pateron are worthy of discussion, but we really need to end some of these rumors.
 
tjerome
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:16 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
If DL wanted to retire them, it would retire them.


This. They have retired many of the older frames both DL and NW frames post-merger. They brought back some that were going to be retired into revenue service and as the charter fleet. If they wanted the 757 to be gone, they had a prime opportunity to do that last year.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:19 pm

Disclaimer: I have not watched the video.

Every single company has liabilities, some bigger than others. The question is, is even the biggest liability to the company a good thing or a bad thing? That's the question to ask
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:21 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Here's the dirty truth: if DL had purchased the MAX and 787, we wouldn't be having these discussions. The reality is, DL has a large number of 321, 339 and 359 on order; once deliveries commence, the 757 and 767 will be rapidly drawn down. Of course, many of these aircraft will survive until the end of the decade or into the next: NW/DL took a large number of 757/767 in the late 1990s/early 2000s; these aircraft are still competitive economically, and the widespread global use (mostly as air freighters) assures that parts will be plentiful and affordable. This has long been the plan - very early (pre-COVID) last year, DL acknowledged that the record number of aircraft deliveries in 2018 & 2019 was an outlier, and would level off during this decade. For comparion's sake, the 330 delivered to NW average just a few years older than the 764.

Regarding the 767: globally, airlines replaced the 767 largely by upgauging to the 330, 777 and larger 787 variants. DL itself replaced most of the 763 flights at ATL and JFK with larger aircraft, through the years. The narrative within these forums is the 767 is the perfect aircraft for DL's network, but that's based on a fallacy. The reason DL has so many 767, is because many were intended for domestic use but DL couldn't make money within the domestic system, so they wound up doing long-haul. The 763 is hardly the ideal long-haul aircraft -- it's not going to accommodate the Suites or premium economy, and DL has talked about the economic challenges of low-capacity long-haul flights, as labor costs swelled. Pre-COVID, the number of 339 and 359 scheduled for delivery in a few short years was telling -- unless DL planned a massive expansion (and that wasn't going to happen), the 763's days were pretty much numbered. On another forum, a reliable source has indicated for a couple years that DL was shopping its late model 763 aircraft to freighters, and some of the 764 may wind up in the domestic configuration again, as it may have been the only way to grown ATL. Despite this forum's wishful thinking, DL was never holding out for the NMA -- it largely had its replacement. Irononiclly, the retirement of the 777 could breath new life into the 767 if markets pick up faster than anticipated.

I don't think YouTube videos that are designed for clicks by a content creator asking people to join his Pateron are worthy of discussion, but we really need to end some of these rumors.


I don’t see how the MAX/787 vs A320neo/A330neo decision factors in much for the remaining life of the 757/767. Delta is pretty consistent about flying the 757/767 for 30 years. Some of their newer 767-300ERs were sold to Amazon due to COVID to raise cash. Other than that we can expect Delta to fly them 30 years regardless of whether they chose Boeing or Airbus to eventually replace them.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:25 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Disclaimer: I have not watched the video.

Every single company has liabilities, some bigger than others. The question is, is even the biggest liability to the company a good thing or a bad thing? That's the question to ask


I view the fully paid off 757s as an asset. No lease payments to store them in COVID and easily able to be put back in the network.

I suspect as airlines race to add back domestic capacity, AA may miss their relatively young 757s that are now flying boxes for DHL or SF Express
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:36 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t see how the MAX/787 vs A320neo/A330neo decision factors in much for the remaining life of the 757/767. Delta is pretty consistent about flying the 757/767 for 30 years.


If DL had chosen the MAX & 787, this forum wouldn't be so thirsty and would more readily accept that 20-year-old aircraft will linger through the decade, rather than declaring them a liability. The MD-88 was never declared a liability, and some users religiously insisted that the aircraft would survive 40+ years, just like the DC-9.

Some of their newer 767-300ERs were sold to Amazon due to COVID to raise cash.


There were rumblings for at least a year prior to COVID that DL was shopping its youngest 763 to freighters. Prior to COVID, the amount of pure capacity scheduled for delivery through 2025 (339 & 359) exceeded the entire 767 fleet. The 330 and 777 were scheduled to receive the Suites, and it was improbable that the 764 would begin phase out, so it was pretty clear DL was intending to move away from the 763.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:39 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t see how the MAX/787 vs A320neo/A330neo decision factors in much for the remaining life of the 757/767. Delta is pretty consistent about flying the 757/767 for 30 years.


If DL had chosen the MAX & 787, this forum wouldn't be so thirsty and would more readily accept that 20-year-old aircraft will linger through the decade, rather than declaring them a liability. The MD-88 was never declared a liability, and some users religiously insisted that the aircraft would survive 40+ years, just like the DC-9.

Some of their newer 767-300ERs were sold to Amazon due to COVID to raise cash.


There were rumblings for at least a year prior to COVID that DL was shopping its youngest 763 to freighters. Prior to COVID, the amount of pure capacity scheduled for delivery through 2025 (339 & 359) exceeded the entire 767 fleet. The 330 and 777 were scheduled to receive the Suites, and it was improbable that the 764 would begin phase out, so it was pretty clear DL was intending to move away from the 763.


Delta is actively adding premium economy to 767s so they would only be doing that if they plan to put them back on international flights. With that said, this forum loves A vs B airplane replacement discussions so I agree with you.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:45 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Northwest upgraded the interiors of the DC-9s to a similar type like the 717 and made a few other modifications also. The average passenger probably could not tell the difference between a Northwest DC-9 and a 717.


It was impressive. If I blindfolded you and walked you into the cabin so that you never got to see the exterior, you would truly have to be an expert to tell whether you were on a NW DC-9 or a 717. Really, the only difference is that NW's DC-9s had the two seats on the left and every 717 I've ever seen has them on the right. There were perhaps a few trivial differences with the latches on the overhead bins, but otherwise, they were pretty much indistinguishable.

As for DL's 757 fleet, if that is their biggest liability, then they are doing pretty darned well.
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WidebodyPTV
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:49 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Delta is actively adding premium economy to 767s so they would only be doing that if they plan to put them back on international flights.


DL intends on retiring the 763 by mid-decade, so I'm not sure that really foreshadows much. If markets recover faster than anticipated, they may linger around a bit longer.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:52 pm

DocLightning wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Northwest upgraded the interiors of the DC-9s to a similar type like the 717 and made a few other modifications also. The average passenger probably could not tell the difference between a Northwest DC-9 and a 717.


It was impressive. If I blindfolded you and walked you into the cabin so that you never got to see the exterior, you would truly have to be an expert to tell whether you were on a NW DC-9 or a 717. Really, the only difference is that NW's DC-9s had the two seats on the left and every 717 I've ever seen has them on the right. There were perhaps a few trivial differences with the latches on the overhead bins, but otherwise, they were pretty much indistinguishable.

As for DL's 757 fleet, if that is their biggest liability, then they are doing pretty darned well.


The recently retrofitted new interiors for the A320s and 757s are pretty darn similar too except for the a.netters who bring a tape measure to compare economy class seat width. The blue mood lighting, large pivot bins and PTVs make the airplanes look like new on the inside
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: "Delta's 757s are their biggest liability"

Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:02 pm

Heh, would be cool if the 757s got the DC9 treatment and flew in modest numbers (even just 30 or 40) past 2030. Possible? Probably, unless fuel becomes an issue.

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