AA1427 a 737-8 MAX, registration N339SU was taking off at the Argyle Airport SVD in St. Vincent when the pilots performed a high speed rejected takeoff due to a birdstrike. The incident was captured by a local spotter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nlGl2Kin44
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Wow, amazing footage thanks for sharing. Incredible job by the crew!
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Pretty impressive stopping ability. Someone more knowledgable on the situation can add to this but 3.5 hours to Miami with a decent load that aircraft isn't exactly light. Not heavy for sure but not light. Great footage.
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- phatfarmlines
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Was it actually a strike on the 0:16-0:17 time marker in the video?
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
phatfarmlines wrote:Was it actually a strike on the 0:16-0:17 time marker in the video?
I don't think so. You can watch @ 0.25x playback, and the reversers are starting at 0:15. I can't see anything for sure, but there are some splats on the runway, maybe, at 0:13.
Should be on the side of the camera:
https://avherald.com/h?article=4e88d565&opt=0
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Did any tires blow or catch fire? IIRC there was a UA 738 at IAH a few years back that did a high speed RTO and ended up having to deplane on the runway.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
You can see feathers at about 9 seconds into this video, quick reaction by the crew. Well Done.
Same video where avherald got the screenshot.
https://twitter.com/aviacionhr_info/sta ... 9631823880
Same video where avherald got the screenshot.
https://twitter.com/aviacionhr_info/sta ... 9631823880
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
LHRXXXLHR wrote:Pretty impressive stopping ability. Someone more knowledgable on the situation can add to this but 3.5 hours to Miami with a decent load that aircraft isn't exactly light. Not heavy for sure but not light. Great footage.
RTO auto brakes, quick thinking, and good airmanship in action. I want to say that the RTO setting can make the system work at over 100% (normal) capacity but I'm not sure. Can anyone correct me on this?
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
TWA772LR wrote:LHRXXXLHR wrote:Pretty impressive stopping ability. Someone more knowledgable on the situation can add to this but 3.5 hours to Miami with a decent load that aircraft isn't exactly light. Not heavy for sure but not light. Great footage.
RTO auto brakes, quick thinking, and good airmanship in action. I want to say that the RTO setting can make the system work at over 100% (normal) capacity but I'm not sure. Can anyone correct me on this?
While I can’t speak specifically to the 737, maximum manual braking typically provides more deceleration than the RTO setting on the auto brakes. That’s been true for every transport category aircraft I’ve flown to date. The benefits to the RTO setting are symmetrical braking and immediate brake application when thrust levers are retarded.
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- 2eng2efficient
- Posts: 283
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Is it SOP to allow autobrake to bring the aircraft to a full stop, as opposed to disengaging at a slow speed (10-20 kts)? I have seen other RTO videos on YouTube where the A/C didn’t come to a complete stop on the runway, albeit none at a high speed like this.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
NW747-400 wrote:TWA772LR wrote:LHRXXXLHR wrote:Pretty impressive stopping ability. Someone more knowledgable on the situation can add to this but 3.5 hours to Miami with a decent load that aircraft isn't exactly light. Not heavy for sure but not light. Great footage.
RTO auto brakes, quick thinking, and good airmanship in action. I want to say that the RTO setting can make the system work at over 100% (normal) capacity but I'm not sure. Can anyone correct me on this?
While I can’t speak specifically to the 737, maximum manual braking typically provides more deceleration than the RTO setting on the auto brakes. That’s been true for every transport category aircraft I’ve flown to date. The benefits to the RTO setting are symmetrical braking and immediate brake application when thrust levers are retarded.
Will auto takes still go on when the toe brakes are at max pressure and provide braking symmetry?
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
For those curious... reject speed 130, V1 148 (VR 148 as well). Fuse plugs melted, all four main gear tires need replacement. Several outlet guide vanes and at least one of the chevron-shaped acoustic panels significantly damaged from bird impact on the right hand engine. Looks like brakes and anti-skid transducers live to see another flight.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
2eng2efficient wrote:Is it SOP to allow autobrake to bring the aircraft to a full stop, as opposed to disengaging at a slow speed (10-20 kts)? I have seen other RTO videos on YouTube where the A/C didn’t come to a complete stop on the runway, albeit none at a high speed like this.
At my company, allowing the auto brakes to stop the aircraft is not a requirement. That would be a very abrupt and uncomfortable stop, and not always necessary. Example: if the crew makes the decision to abort at 85 knots on a 12,000’ runway. I can’t speak for other carriers, however.
TWA772LR wrote:NW747-400 wrote:TWA772LR wrote:RTO auto brakes, quick thinking, and good airmanship in action. I want to say that the RTO setting can make the system work at over 100% (normal) capacity but I'm not sure. Can anyone correct me on this?
While I can’t speak specifically to the 737, maximum manual braking typically provides more deceleration than the RTO setting on the auto brakes. That’s been true for every transport category aircraft I’ve flown to date. The benefits to the RTO setting are symmetrical braking and immediate brake application when thrust levers are retarded.
Will auto takes still go on when the toe brakes are at max pressure and provide braking symmetry?
Nope, once the crew taps the toe brakes, the auto brakes disengage and the aircraft reverts to manual braking. It’s especially important for the monitoring pilot to observe the deceleration rate and auto brakes status during an abort for that reason: if the flying pilot inadvertently taps the toe brakes while making steering inputs with the pedals, it’s the monitoring pilot’s job to announce the condition to the flying pilot and ensure the flying pilot begins manual braking applications.
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- smokeybandit
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
RTO on the 737 will completely stop the Aircraft once the thrust levers are brought to idle. It’s a violent maneuver. From one professional to another, that crew did an incredible job. That was textbook. It doesn’t get much quicker than that for a reaction time from bird strike to RTO. Amazing video.
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- AngelsDecay
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Great and amazing job...only a few mere "seconds" if less, from the birds/feathers filmed from the inside to start the decelaration...quick and wise decision, human skills 100% and brakes 100% either..not like this 747 some years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzkcmQ0AIw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzkcmQ0AIw
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Fantastic job by the crew.
As for allowing autobrakes to stop the aircraft, generally no for the reasons mentioned above. Another thing to consider as taught to me by my airline: it may be prudent to slowly roll down the runway (if it is safe to do so) until passengers/flight attendants are told to remain seated. Apparently it happened in the past that some overly eager passengers opened the exits and exited the aircraft during an RTO some time ago. Obviously it comes down to the crew assessing the situation, but that’s a technique we are taught in the sim.
As for allowing autobrakes to stop the aircraft, generally no for the reasons mentioned above. Another thing to consider as taught to me by my airline: it may be prudent to slowly roll down the runway (if it is safe to do so) until passengers/flight attendants are told to remain seated. Apparently it happened in the past that some overly eager passengers opened the exits and exited the aircraft during an RTO some time ago. Obviously it comes down to the crew assessing the situation, but that’s a technique we are taught in the sim.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
NW747-400 wrote:TWA772LR wrote:LHRXXXLHR wrote:Pretty impressive stopping ability. Someone more knowledgable on the situation can add to this but 3.5 hours to Miami with a decent load that aircraft isn't exactly light. Not heavy for sure but not light. Great footage.
RTO auto brakes, quick thinking, and good airmanship in action. I want to say that the RTO setting can make the system work at over 100% (normal) capacity but I'm not sure. Can anyone correct me on this?
While I can’t speak specifically to the 737, maximum manual braking typically provides more deceleration than the RTO setting on the auto brakes. That’s been true for every transport category aircraft I’ve flown to date. The benefits to the RTO setting are symmetrical braking and immediate brake application when thrust levers are retarded.
That is not correct,
RTO braking is maximum attainable braking, using maximum hydraulic pressure to the brakes, you cannot stop the aircraft any quicker than this
Maximum auto brakes on the other hand is a maximum selectable rate that can be used on landing
Maximum manual braking will provide greater deceleration than max auto brakes on landing
Pretty impressive how quickly that Max stopped from a high speed and on a wet runway !
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Prior to the rejection, the aircraft looked very 'nose-up' with the nosewheel barely on the ground. Is this usual? I've never seen a 737 with that attitude on take-off.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
DH106 wrote:Prior to the rejection, the aircraft looked very 'nose-up' with the nosewheel barely on the ground. Is this usual? I've never seen a 737 with that attitude on take-off.
It's normal for a MAX as the nose wheel strutt is 8" longer so the aircraft visually looks more 'stuck-up'.
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- eamondzhang
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
DH106 wrote:Prior to the rejection, the aircraft looked very 'nose-up' with the nosewheel barely on the ground. Is this usual? I've never seen a 737 with that attitude on take-off.
it's a MAX so I wouldn't be surprised - they had to extend the nose gear to accommodate the engine in the first place
Michael
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Wow I wonder how close to V1 that was, seriously impressive breaking performance as well.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
SEU wrote:Wow I wonder how close to V1 that was, seriously impressive breaking performance as well.
N855GT wrote:For those curious... reject speed 130, V1 148 (VR 148 as well). Fuse plugs melted, all four main gear tires need replacement. Several outlet guide vanes and at least one of the chevron-shaped acoustic panels significantly damaged from bird impact on the right hand engine. Looks like brakes and anti-skid transducers live to see another flight.
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- ClipperMonsoon
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
AngelsDecay wrote:Great and amazing job...only a few mere "seconds" if less, from the birds/feathers filmed from the inside to start the decelaration...quick and wise decision, human skills 100% and brakes 100% either..not like this 747 some years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzkcmQ0AIw
Dry runway vs wet runway, there's your 115% difference
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- AngelsDecay
- Posts: 204
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
ClipperMonsoon wrote:AngelsDecay wrote:Great and amazing job...only a few mere "seconds" if less, from the birds/feathers filmed from the inside to start the decelaration...quick and wise decision, human skills 100% and brakes 100% either..not like this 747 some years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzkcmQ0AIw
Dry runway vs wet runway, there's your 115% difference
AFAIK in both cases RWY is WET...
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- ClipperMonsoon
- Posts: 76
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Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
AngelsDecay wrote:ClipperMonsoon wrote:AngelsDecay wrote:Great and amazing job...only a few mere "seconds" if less, from the birds/feathers filmed from the inside to start the decelaration...quick and wise decision, human skills 100% and brakes 100% either..not like this 747 some years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzkcmQ0AIw
Dry runway vs wet runway, there's your 115% difference
AFAIK in both cases RWY is WET...
Definitely could have been, but MDEs runway has standing water on it, and im sure the altitude didn't help either, or the fact that the 747 was likely heavier, but pretty impressed by AA crews capability, done by the book. Wish all RTO's would end up safely like this.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
The aircraft met a flock of birds so it's possible the pilot was initiating the RTO even before the strike.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
I really don’t mean this as an attack, but in other words you’re saying you’re going to spend days or weeks collecting and analyzing data to make a decision that this crew had 2 seconds to make.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
ABEguy wrote:BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
I really don’t mean this as an attack, but in other words you’re saying you’re going to spend days or weeks collecting and analyzing data to make a decision that this crew had 2 seconds to make.
No. I asked a pretty straightforward question if anyone knew if either engine failed or showed signs of a problem. I was also interested in having the pilots here share their thoughts if the RTO was justified. Last I heard, this is a discussion board.
Where exactly did I say anything about spending weeks collecting and analyzing data? If I were AA’s Chief Pilot, my A.net user name would be a bit different.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
BoeingGuy wrote:ABEguy wrote:BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
I really don’t mean this as an attack, but in other words you’re saying you’re going to spend days or weeks collecting and analyzing data to make a decision that this crew had 2 seconds to make.
No. I asked a pretty straightforward question if anyone knew if either engine failed or showed signs of a problem. I was also interested in having the pilots here share their thoughts if the RTO was justified. Last I heard, this is a discussion board.
Where exactly did I say anything about spending weeks collecting and analyzing data? If I were AA’s Chief Pilot, my A.net user name would be a bit different.
Clearly you took that as an attack. It really wasn’t meant that way. Just commentary on how these this tend to be investigated.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
In the video there seems to be a flock of birds. If they continued, there would also be a risk of additional bird strikes, wouldn't it? As an amateur my guess would be you then reject because of the risk of dual engine failure, but it would be lovely to have input from a real world pilot.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
Perhaps this is the difference between "a bird" and "a flock of birds". A flock of birds could potentially damage both engines in which case a RTO at close to V1 would clearly be justified.
Re: AA B38M Birdstrike at SVD
BoeingGuy wrote:ABEguy wrote:BoeingGuy wrote:Boeing guidance is to not RTO above 80 knots for a bird strike unless anomalous engine behavior occurs. You don’t RTO at close to V1 just because you hit a bird. That’s a risk of a catastrophic runway excursion.
I don’t know enough about this incident yet to comment on whether the captain made the correct decision. Does anyone know if either engine did fail or show anomalous behavior? Was the high speed RTO justified?
I really don’t mean this as an attack, but in other words you’re saying you’re going to spend days or weeks collecting and analyzing data to make a decision that this crew had 2 seconds to make.
No. I asked a pretty straightforward question if anyone knew if either engine failed or showed signs of a problem. I was also interested in having the pilots here share their thoughts if the RTO was justified. Last I heard, this is a discussion board.
Where exactly did I say anything about spending weeks collecting and analyzing data? If I were AA’s Chief Pilot, my A.net user name would be a bit different.
You did ask a straightforward question and I couldn’t agree more, rejecting a take off at high speed close to V1 is a highly risky decision
If they did experience engine issues that’s one thing otherwise you’re nearly always better taking the aircraft into the air and dealing with it then
I’ll be interested to see more details
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