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DenverTed
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:38 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
So in 2022, WN will take 34 more in addition to the original 30 Max7 deliveries, for a total of 64? Three lavs, no more lavs in the rear galley, unlike on the JetBlue A220. That is some progress.


I'll take Southwest and their 32' seat pitch anytime.

At least they realize their are folks over 6'2" that need extra legroom :)

Their -700s have 31” pitch and are the majority of their fleet. Are you saying you’d rather take a SWA 737-700 with 31” pitch over a jetblue A220 with 32” of pitch, 1-1.5” wider seats, and 50% fewer middle seats? Interesting take. I fly WN when I have to, and their network is a lot better than JetBlue’s, and their comfort is probably better than economy- on legacy 737s, but there are definitely a lot more comfortable planes out there for bigger folks (bigger referring to any/all directions), especially considering the post to which you responded was referring to jetblue A220s.

I'm all for fewer middle seats. That's why I believe the workhorse, better mousetrap, gold standard people mover plane of the future is a twin aisle 2-2-2. No more fear and loathing in the middle seat. How light can Boeing make a 200 seater for WN with 4 lavs, 18" wide seats and aisles, 32" pitch, with 3k nm range? Can they do it at 95t MTOW and a 36m CFRP wing? Maybe WN will by some Max10s, but I hope beyond that there is a bigger vision.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:08 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Can't think of any new markets that are left except Alaska.

They could finally get over their allergy to Canada, and start there.

Be fun to watch 'em struggle.


Yep. There’s about 15 cities that could support anywhere 1 (e.g., YQR-DEN) to 20 (I.e., YYZ to any WN non-hub hub) daily flights. Will WN ever show us some LUV?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:44 am

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
Is Ryanair or Southwest trying to deny the access to the 737 MAX for other airlines by ordering a lot of them?


That is hardly possible. If needed Boeing will ramp up fast. RyanAir and Southwest would have to take 500 frames between them each year to deny others the 737MAX.

The post made me smile. I believe Boeing could produce 630/year by 2023. That won't happen as there is just not enough demand.

WN and FR know they have costs under control and thus can expand profitably in a growing market with low business travel demand.

At this time Boeing lost backlog due to prior errors. Do they have slots, in my opinion.

Lightsaber
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VV
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:34 am

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
Is Ryanair or Southwest trying to deny the access to the 737 MAX for other airlines by ordering a lot of them?


That is hardly possible. If needed Boeing will ramp up fast. RyanAir and Southwest would have to take 500 frames between them each year to deny others the 737MAX.


I am thinking about early delivery slots.

Obviously the 737 MAX production rate can go quite high, but with the issues and so on I think it is safe to say that such a order from Ryanair and Southwest with such early delivery date makes difficult the access to early delivery slot for other airlines.


I think air travel will come back strong quite quickly and Southwest and Ryanair are in good position to inundate the market with offer "produced" at competitive level.
 
CX747
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:25 am

VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
Is Ryanair or Southwest trying to deny the access to the 737 MAX for other airlines by ordering a lot of them?


That is hardly possible. If needed Boeing will ramp up fast. RyanAir and Southwest would have to take 500 frames between them each year to deny others the 737MAX.


I am thinking about early delivery slots.

Obviously the 737 MAX production rate can go quite high, but with the issues and so on I think it is safe to say that such a order from Ryanair and Southwest with such early delivery date makes difficult the access to early delivery slot for other airlines.


I think air travel will come back strong quite quickly and Southwest and Ryanair are in good position to inundate the market with offer "produced" at competitive level.


To a certain degree, you are correct. Southwest and Ryanair, by ordering a large number of 737s, for early delivery, have jumped at the opening market. Their orders for 737s will not go to competitors and will be put into the market to fight those same competitors. A competitor's ability to react will be hampered by a potential lack of new 737s and A32Xs. These two carriers see what is available to them in terms of customers and airport access. Now is the time to strike and strike they will with new 737 Max aircraft.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:48 am

CX747 wrote:
VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

That is hardly possible. If needed Boeing will ramp up fast. RyanAir and Southwest would have to take 500 frames between them each year to deny others the 737MAX.


I am thinking about early delivery slots.

Obviously the 737 MAX production rate can go quite high, but with the issues and so on I think it is safe to say that such a order from Ryanair and Southwest with such early delivery date makes difficult the access to early delivery slot for other airlines.


I think air travel will come back strong quite quickly and Southwest and Ryanair are in good position to inundate the market with offer "produced" at competitive level.


To a certain degree, you are correct. Southwest and Ryanair, by ordering a large number of 737s, for early delivery, have jumped at the opening market. Their orders for 737s will not go to competitors and will be put into the market to fight those same competitors. A competitor's ability to react will be hampered by a potential lack of new 737s and A32Xs. These two carriers see what is available to them in terms of customers and airport access. Now is the time to strike and strike they will with new 737 Max aircraft.


Chances are, this early slots came from some of the competitors that had to defer delivery due to bad finances. At the end we will see all ULCCs and LCCs gaining market share because they do not have to finance an extensive international network.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 349
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:27 am

Just realised Aeromexico cancelled 34 B737MAX in May and Southwest places same amount of MAX in this new order. Well played Boeing! Congrats!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:58 am

Please post on topic.
Please do not post "flamebait" that intentionally puts down one product or airline over another.
If you reference an off topic post, flamebait, or Airbus vs. Boeing post, we must delete your post when cleaning up the thread.
For questions on moderation, please e-mail [email protected]
Moderators are not supposed to reply to IMs as all moderation is supposed to be reviewed by all moderators

This topic, a top off order of a few more -7 MAX, has had to have a lot of moderator attention because it quickly becomes A vs B on subjects that have nothing to do with WN getting a few more -7 MAX. Let me repeat, if you reply to say an A vs. B post or an off topic post, we clean up the thread by deleting all the references.

Lightsaber
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planecane
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:04 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
So in 2022, WN will take 34 more in addition to the original 30 Max7 deliveries, for a total of 64? Three lavs, no more lavs in the rear galley, unlike on the JetBlue A220. That is some progress.


I'll take Southwest and their 32' seat pitch anytime.

At least they realize their are folks over 6'2" that need extra legroom :)


Fingers crossed that when they reveal the MAX 7 cabin, the seat pitch will be 32'.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 820
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:40 pm

planecane wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
So in 2022, WN will take 34 more in addition to the original 30 Max7 deliveries, for a total of 64? Three lavs, no more lavs in the rear galley, unlike on the JetBlue A220. That is some progress.


I'll take Southwest and their 32' seat pitch anytime.

At least they realize their are folks over 6'2" that need extra legroom :)


Fingers crossed that when they reveal the MAX 7 cabin, the seat pitch will be 32'.


The whole point of the Max 7 size is that it seats 150 at 32" pitch. 150 is 3 FA's. No way WN will consider going to 156 (30.8" pitch) as doing so requires an extra FA. For their model, that doesn't work.

Boeing could have made the Max7 12" shorter and saved a thousand pounds or so had WN been willing to accept 150pax at 31" pitch.

This ship has long sailed. It'll be 32" pitch.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 372
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:39 am

Okcflyer wrote:

The whole point of the Max 7 size is that it seats 150 at 32" pitch. 150 is 3 FA's. No way WN will consider going to 156 (30.8" pitch) as doing so requires an extra FA. For their model, that doesn't work.

Boeing could have made the Max7 12" shorter and saved a thousand pounds or so had WN been willing to accept 150pax at 31" pitch.

This ship has long sailed. It'll be 32" pitch.


Yeah, it's been reported that WN wanted the comfort of 7MAX to be on par with 8MAX as 8MAX has 175 seats at 32" with a few rows at 33" pitch.

Anyway, I always thought WN would need something in that size of the 7G and 7MAX... I just never pictured 234 of them. Amazing order.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
WN732
Posts: 996
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:30 am

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:

The whole point of the Max 7 size is that it seats 150 at 32" pitch. 150 is 3 FA's. No way WN will consider going to 156 (30.8" pitch) as doing so requires an extra FA. For their model, that doesn't work.

Boeing could have made the Max7 12" shorter and saved a thousand pounds or so had WN been willing to accept 150pax at 31" pitch.

This ship has long sailed. It'll be 32" pitch.


Yeah, it's been reported that WN wanted the comfort of 7MAX to be on par with 8MAX as 8MAX has 175 seats at 32" with a few rows at 33" pitch.

Anyway, I always thought WN would need something in that size of the 7G and 7MAX... I just never pictured 234 of them. Amazing order.


I'm so glad that this was decided. There really is a noticeable comfort difference between the -700 and -800/8 on longer distances.
 
VV
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am

FluidFlow wrote:
CX747 wrote:
...
To a certain degree, you are correct. Southwest and Ryanair, by ordering a large number of 737s, for early delivery, have jumped at the opening market. Their orders for 737s will not go to competitors and will be put into the market to fight those same competitors. A competitor's ability to react will be hampered by a potential lack of new 737s and A32Xs. These two carriers see what is available to them in terms of customers and airport access. Now is the time to strike and strike they will with new 737 Max aircraft.


Chances are, this early slots came from some of the competitors that had to defer delivery due to bad finances. At the end we will see all ULCCs and LCCs gaining market share because they do not have to finance an extensive international network.


That's exactly the point, isn't it?
It allows them to consolidate their dominance in their respective market.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:09 pm

VV wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
CX747 wrote:
...
To a certain degree, you are correct. Southwest and Ryanair, by ordering a large number of 737s, for early delivery, have jumped at the opening market. Their orders for 737s will not go to competitors and will be put into the market to fight those same competitors. A competitor's ability to react will be hampered by a potential lack of new 737s and A32Xs. These two carriers see what is available to them in terms of customers and airport access. Now is the time to strike and strike they will with new 737 Max aircraft.

Chances are, this early slots came from some of the competitors that had to defer delivery due to bad finances. At the end we will see all ULCCs and LCCs gaining market share because they do not have to finance an extensive international network.

That's exactly the point, isn't it?
It allows them to consolidate their dominance in their respective market.

Their strong finances made it easier for them to resist cancellations that the weaker players might have been compelled to take. Posts by smartplane tell us that those that held on to their orders got the most value out of compensation payments. There were rewards in the form of credits for not asking for cash compensation, not canceling orders and not skipping deposit payments or using credits on them. Each delivery results in post delivery credits. The formulas are unknown but the general structure is.

It's interesting that the whole "no one will ever step foot on a MAX again" meme of 2019 has disappeared. Sure, there may be some, but in reality there were less than even the operators expected. Maybe this too was easier for the big airlines to deal with, and the smaller ones used it as another justification to just take the cash. It turns out they were leaving a lot of money on the table by doing so, and they are now hundreds of orders deeper in the queue if they decide they want MAX after all than they would have been if they had just kept their original orders.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Opus99
Posts: 2255
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Southwest Tops Up 737 MAX Order -

Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Chances are, this early slots came from some of the competitors that had to defer delivery due to bad finances. At the end we will see all ULCCs and LCCs gaining market share because they do not have to finance an extensive international network.

That's exactly the point, isn't it?
It allows them to consolidate their dominance in their respective market.

Their strong finances made it easier for them to resist cancellations that the weaker players might have been compelled to take. Posts by smartplane tell us that those that held on to their orders got the most value out of compensation payments. There were rewards in the form of credits for not asking for cash compensation, not canceling orders and not skipping deposit payments or using credits on them. Each delivery results in post delivery credits. The formulas are unknown but the general structure is.

It's interesting that the whole "no one will ever step foot on a MAX again" meme of 2019 has disappeared. Sure, there may be some, but in reality there were less than even the operators expected. Maybe this too was easier for the big airlines to deal with, and the smaller ones used it as another justification to just take the cash. It turns out they were leaving a lot of money on the table by doing so, and they are now hundreds of orders deeper in the queue if they decide they want MAX after all than they would have been if they had just kept their original orders.

The “never getting on a max” crew are less than expected to the point that they’re not noticeable

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