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FlyingHonu001
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Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:54 pm

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... rmany.html

LH recently announced they will be starting to vaccinate their employees through Lufthansa Medical Services. Interesting developement I believe...cause at the moment I dont see any other major European airline giving crew vaccinations. However most legacy carriers like LH do have medical departments for staff at their disposal. So we might expect to see this too roll out across major European airlines soon
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:04 pm

Note that this is entirely voluntary.

Germany has started distributing vaccines to many large companies that have their own medical department, or at least a company physician. Not just Lufthansa. For example, Daimler is hoping to distribute 3000 daily vaccinations to their staff. https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite ... wType=list [German, press release]
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:48 pm

Discuss non-aviation in non-aviation.
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USAirKid
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:09 pm

FWIW, the Port of Seattle has been running a vaccination clinic for anyone with a SEA or airline badge.

https://www.portseattle.org/news/port-p ... ion-clinic

I've had a friend who is a Delta FA who has volunteered handling the checkin requirements.
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:32 pm

The state of Alaska is giving free vaccines to anyone who wants them in Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Juneau Airports.

'902
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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:07 am

So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??
 
alasizon
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:51 am

With how much outsourcing is done in Europe, would it not be more effective for it to be airport focused as opposed to airline focused?

For PHX, the airport itself ran three different vaccination drives targeted towards airport employees but also open to the public. Drive one was in the terminal right outside the security checkpoint, drive two and three were at the airport train station (for space reasons). That seems a lot more effective and with greater reach than AA having done one, then WN having done, then the city doing one for their employees, etc.

I totally understand the company approach for those companies outside of mass transit but for companies who literally are responsible for the mass gatherings of people in a single non-office building, it seems like a waste of resources.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
b777vna
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:59 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??

Vietnam Airlines, start from 13th May
b777vna
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:38 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??

Air Canada. First and second dose.

(Family too).
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32andBelow
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:52 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
The state of Alaska is giving free vaccines to anyone who wants them in Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Juneau Airports.

'902

can’t you get it for free anywhere in the country now?
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:01 pm

The UK has had a phased approach, starting with in December 2020 with vulnerable groups, and then working down through different age groups.
With vaccines now open and freely available to anyone over the age of 18 through the National Health Service, doesn’t seem much point to an airline attempting to vaccinate their own staff against that backdrop here.
 
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CARST
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:22 pm

32andBelow wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
The state of Alaska is giving free vaccines to anyone who wants them in Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Juneau Airports.

'902

can’t you get it for free anywhere in the country now?


The point is of making vaccines more accessible. Of course you have the people actively trying to get the vaccine shots and then the non-vaxxers, but there is a large group in the "middle" which is just to lazy to book an appointment somewhere and just doesn't get the vaccine out of laziness or because they aren't 100% convinced if they should get the vaccine. So if you bring the vaccines to their workplace and they can get vaccinated right there without the hassle of booking an appointment and having to drive somewhere in their free-time, these people will often use that additional opportunity to get the vaccine.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:14 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Why? So we know which ones to fly on OR avoid??
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA KL

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
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Acey559
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:21 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


United has been doing it since the spring. March or April if I remember correctly.
 
DarQuiet
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:06 am

CX is giving its employees the option of getting vaccinated or the risk of losing their job.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57592596
 
solracfunk14
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:10 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Azul, LATAM and GOL in Brazil. The government decided that airline employees should get vaccine ASAP due the new Covid variants.

I can say that around 80% of the airlines employees got the 1st dose in the first 15 days of June. By september they should get the 2nd dose of Pfizer and AstraZeneca.
 
emre787
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:52 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Turkish Airlines and Pegasus too
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:57 pm

emre787 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Turkish Airlines and Pegasus too


All UAE airlines definitely and I suspect virtually ALL Middle Eastern airlines.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:41 pm

I don't know how it is elsewhere but in Europe we're getting a vaccine passport, that might be needed for traveling and other activities. That means knowing reliably who is vaccinated is important, so if a company wants to do this, they have to work with health authorities to use the right system, etc.

My company considered doing this, and it would be seamless as it employs doctors, who in France are all part of the system, but in the end it wasn't worth it, pushing people to take an appointment during working hours if they wanted to was chosen.
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:35 pm

Are the developing world country airlines forcing employees to be vaccinated or lose their jobs? , And the developed world country airlines are offering but not forcing?
 
zkncj
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:06 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Are the developing world country airlines forcing employees to be vaccinated or lose their jobs? , And the developed world country airlines are offering but not forcing?


New Zealand had an policy that all boarder related staff eg Airport Staff, Crew dealing with International passengers should be vaccinated by 30 April. Or face losing there job if they couldn’t be allocated to non boarder facing role.

Boarder works having been responsible for most our breaks in New Zealand.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:45 pm

There was a case in Australia of a driver for foreign airline crew that got infected, spread it to his family which then led to an outbreak that has caused lockdowns in parts of Sydney.

I think it's a very good idea for cabin crew and airline staff to be vaccinated as a priority, as they are much more at risk and also more likely to spread the disease to other people. Being young and fit also makes them more likely to be asymptomatic carriers.

I don't know if they can legally make vaccination compulsory, but personally I don't think that would be at all unreasonable. Refusing to get vaccinated not only puts them in danger, but represents a danger to the passengers, the airline and to entire countries. People's lives are at stake.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:55 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:

I don't know if they can legally make vaccination compulsory, but personally I don't think that would be at all unreasonable. Refusing to get vaccinated not only puts them in danger, but represents a danger to the passengers, the airline and to entire countries. People's lives are at stake.


The legality of mandating vaccines for employees varies from country to country, but mandating inbound crew to be vaccinated to be allowed through a border is well within the power of any nation, and I think that this should (and likely will) become the norm once vaccines are reasonably available throughout the World.

Once this is the case, it will become hard for airlines to justify employing crews who refuse to get vaccinated as it will render them unable to perform their job...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:25 am

lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


Ignoring the falsehood of safety issues of the vaccines (also there is no such thing as a "chemical shot", according to all literature from the FDA and CDC, it is a vaccine, just not fully FDA approved yet).

Right now, according to the FAA(https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/), anyone holding a medical can't be PIC or part of a flight crew within 48 hours of getting a dose of the vaccine.

The vaccine, is safe that is a fact, and there needs to be a push for everyone who works in travel or travels a lot to get the COVID-19 vaccine.
 
ricq
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:22 am

lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


I agree. Airline personnel should be able to say no if they don't want the vaccine because they think (rightly or wrongly) that it is not safe for them. But perhaps the airlines should be free to not allow them to work without a vaccine? This is becoming an increasingly thorny issue and will no doubt be decided differently by different countries and cultures.
 
UA748i
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:25 am

lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


Righto.

One of the prime reasons why I will vehemently refuse it, even at the detriment of my occupation. Its not worth the risk.
 
DualQual
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:59 am

UA748i wrote:
lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


Righto.

One of the prime reasons why I will vehemently refuse it, even at the detriment of my occupation. Its not worth the risk.


And yet you are willing to chance the higher likelihood of more severe complications from the virus itself?
There's no known cure for stupid
 
sanssouci
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:05 am

DualQual wrote:
UA748i wrote:
lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


Righto.

One of the prime reasons why I will vehemently refuse it, even at the detriment of my occupation. Its not worth the risk.


And yet you are willing to chance the higher likelihood of more severe complications from the virus itself?


For a virus with a 98% survival rate and with the average age of Covid death being 82, it's understandable why a young healthy individual would not want to take a risk of getting this vaccine with less than desirable reported side effects. With all the data that is available now, it is clear that this vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid, nor does it prevent you from spreading it to others. The vast majority of healthy individuals recover from it just like they recover from a seasonal flu.

Just yesterday (June 24, 2021) Forbes published an article about Israel, which is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. It says "as many as 50% of Israel’s new cases are among vaccinated people..." With more and more emerging statistics like this, how can one argue that mandating vaccine scientifically makes sense?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart ... 1d839b6d09

Airlines (or companies) can require whatever they want from their employees, but they ought to be prepared for a very tough legal challenges, especially in Western countries. Proving in court (with available scientific data) that the mandate makes sense, and is reasonable, would be an uphill battle because:

a) this is an experimenta/EUA vaccine, which, by law cannot be mandated, at least in the US,
b) there is not enough long term safety data that would allow an individual to make a fully informed decision and give an informed consent,
c) more than enough safety issues have been reported for a reasonable individual to pause and asses his/her risk profile,
d) overwhelming data, including statements from public health officials, proves that the vaccine does not prevent an individual from getting or spreading the virus. Just this recent report from MA shows that nearly 4000 fully vaccinated people were infected with Covid (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 70821.html).
e) airlines have been adamant throughout 2020 that getting Covid on board was virtually impossible (due to filtration systems, etc.).

There will be a patchwork of requirements until the courts (most likely at a higher appellate level) have spoken, at least in countries with strong human rights laws. In the US no airline so far has mandated it. Delta and American openly said that they would not. United, in fact, signed agreements with both pilot and cabin crew unions that explicitly state that vaccinations would not be mandatory for either employee groups (for operational reasons, however, they might be required to be vaccinated in order to fly to certain destinations).
 
FlyingHonu001
Topic Author
Posts: 447
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:29 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Keeping this thread relevant with an update list:

- Etihad Airways
- Emirates
- Qatar Airways
- El Al
- United
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
- LATAM
- GOL
- Azul
- Turkish Airlines
- Pegasus
- Air Canada
- Vietnam Airlines.

Any more airlines? Still interesting to see not many EU airlines yet
Last edited by FlyingHonu001 on Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aklrno
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:36 am

I was amused by the comment that COVID has a 98% survival rate and most deaths are in the elderly. The death rate for the elderly in the US is now very low because more than 85% of us have been vaccinated. Most deaths now are younger people. Last I checked that’s more than 300 per day.

For perspective that’s about the loss of one 777 or 350 per day. If that were happening would you get in that plane? Or if you were told that you had a 98% chance of living through a flight would you get on that plane? The rare chance of a fatal side effect is far far far less. The chance of getting COVID repeats every day. The odds of eventually getting it without the vaccine should scare you.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:18 am

sanssouci wrote:

For a virus with a 98% survival rate and with the average age of Covid death being 82, it's understandable why a young healthy individual would not want to take a risk of getting this vaccine with less than desirable reported side effects. With all the data that is available now, it is clear that this vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid, nor does it prevent you from spreading it to others. The vast majority of healthy individuals recover from it just like they recover from a seasonal flu.


The survival rate of the vaccine is much, much higher than the survival rate of Covid (without a vaccine). The long term effects of the vaccine are basically inexistant, whereas they are relatively common with Covid. Considering the death rate of getting Covid while being vaccinated falls dramatically, the overall risk equation favors the vaccine so much it's not even funny. As the risk to any individual of catching Covid over time increases to almost being a certainty, the only statistical data worth considering is the difference in Covid outcome between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people and adjust this for possible vaccine side-effects. And the data has spoken...
This flawed and misguided reasoning reminds me of the early days of airbags when people pretended that they were unsafe because people still died in car accidents with them...

Just yesterday (June 24, 2021) Forbes published an article about Israel, which is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. It says "as many as 50% of Israel’s new cases are among vaccinated people..." With more and more emerging statistics like this, how can one argue that mandating vaccine scientifically makes sense?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart ... 1d839b6d09


Unless you believe that the infection rate and death toll from the current wave in Israel would be the same or less without most people there being vaccinated, this is another non-sensical statement. The reality, of course, is that the current wave of Delta variant in Israel would be much worse if people weren't vaccinated.
Would you mind, by the way, finding out for us how many people died or suffered from deleterious health effects of the vaccine n Israel, and maybe compare it to the proportion of people who died after catching Covid there during the first wave?

Airlines (or companies) can require whatever they want from their employees, but they ought to be prepared for a very tough legal challenges, especially in Western countries. Proving in court (with available scientific data) that the mandate makes sense, and is reasonable, would be an uphill battle because:

a) this is an experimenta/EUA vaccine, which, by law cannot be mandated, at least in the US,
b) there is not enough long term safety data that would allow an individual to make a fully informed decision and give an informed consent,
c) more than enough safety issues have been reported for a reasonable individual to pause and asses his/her risk profile,
d) overwhelming data, including statements from public health officials, proves that the vaccine does not prevent an individual from getting or spreading the virus. Just this recent report from MA shows that nearly 4000 fully vaccinated people were infected with Covid (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 70821.html).
e) airlines have been adamant throughout 2020 that getting Covid on board was virtually impossible (due to filtration systems, etc.).


a) Full approval by the authorities is forthcoming
b) Yes, there is. Almost 3 billion people across the World have now received at least one dose of a multitude of vaccines. All nations closely monitor and document the adverse effects of the vaccines. This vaccine rollout may have happened very quickly, but it is still the most scrutinized deployment of a drug in history... Yet, the lack of any statistically significant health issues, apart from a few specific cases will soon lead to the fastest full approval of a vaccine in recent times.
c) No, they haven't. The few issues that have been found, however, have been highly mediatized and largely amplified out of any sort of context or proportion by people, like yourself, who refuse to see the data for what it represents.
d) Vaccines were never meant to be 100% effective, nor can they be. They are still highly effective at both reducing viral load, transmission and severe health consequences from Covid. If you are to mention a number of people who caught Covid while being vaccinated, then you have to compare this to how many people would have caught it within the same population group if they were unvaccinated and how many of them would have suffered severe consequences from it.
This is like saying that 4000 people still caught STD despite wearing a condom, and deducing from this isolated and out of context dataset that condoms are ineffectual.
e) That may actually be true, but it does not change the fact that airline crew interact with hundreds of people on a daily basis, in and out of airplanes, such as during layovers.

There will be a patchwork of requirements until the courts (most likely at a higher appellate level) have spoken, at least in countries with strong human rights laws. In the US no airline so far has mandated it. Delta and American openly said that they would not. United, in fact, signed agreements with both pilot and cabin crew unions that explicitly state that vaccinations would not be mandatory for either employee groups (for operational reasons, however, they might be required to be vaccinated in order to fly to certain destinations).


As the list of places requiring vaccination airlines fly to increases, any non-vaccinated crew will become more of a hassle and liability for their employer (at least for international travel). They may not mandate them to be vaccinated, but they may well decide that they are unable to perform the duties they are contracted to do.. There is nothing that prevents an employer from terminating an employee if that employee is unable to do what they're paid to do, regardless of whether it is the employee's own fault or not.
Personal rights and freedoms are one thing but ultimately, in business, money talks...


All in all, you are the typical anti-vaxxer. You misinterpret and misrepresent data to fit your own flawed narrative.
Don't get the vaccine if you don't want to (it's not like facts can ever change your mind), but please don't pretend that your stance is in any way substantiated by data.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
wingflex744
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:47 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Keeping this thread relevant with an update list:

- Etihad Airways
- Emirates
- Qatar Airways
- El Al
- United
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
- LATAM
- GOL
- Azul
- Turkish Airlines
- Pegasus
- Air Canada
- Vietnam Airlines.

Any more airlines? Still interesting to see not many EU airlines yet


Yes, you can add EVA Airways and China Airlines.
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today...it's already tomorrow in Australia!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9647
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:27 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
So now Im curious... Lets compile a list: which airlines are currently in the process of giving vaccinations to staff?

- Etihad
- Emirates
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
-...??


Keeping this thread relevant with an update list:

- Etihad Airways
- Emirates
- Qatar Airways
- El Al
- United
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
- LATAM
- GOL
- Azul
- Turkish Airlines
- Pegasus
- Air Canada
- Vietnam Airlines.

Any more airlines? Still interesting to see not many EU airlines yet


Thanks for the list. Unless things have changed since the early June notice, UA is requiring vaccination for NEW employees, like Delta.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... kers-hire/
 
Eagleboy
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:11 pm

Francoflier wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't know if they can legally make vaccination compulsory, but personally I don't think that would be at all unreasonable. Refusing to get vaccinated not only puts them in danger, but represents a danger to the passengers, the airline and to entire countries. People's lives are at stake.


The legality of mandating vaccines for employees varies from country to country, but mandating inbound crew to be vaccinated to be allowed through a border is well within the power of any nation, and I think that this should (and likely will) become the norm once vaccines are reasonably available throughout the World.......

My airline has had a "must get required vaccines" clause in our contract for decades now. Its never been an issue. I suspect many other airlines also do.
The subject was raised at an employee seminar by an anti-vaxxer.
In my nation the vaccination program is Govt run (and based on age) so no company is able to mandate it yet.

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Any more airlines? Still interesting to see not many EU airlines yet

The EU average is around 30% fully vaxxed, and just under 50% with a single dose. (from https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)
The EU rollout is mostly being conducted by national health services.
The EU wont permit companies to mandate employees be vaccinated unitl the rollout has reached all age groups and thus it is available for all citizens.


cirrusdragoon wrote:
Are the developing world country airlines forcing employees to be vaccinated or lose their jobs? , And the developed world country airlines are offering but not forcing?

Are you claiming that Hong Kong is in "the developing world"?
 
AngMoh
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Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:42 pm

Francoflier wrote:
sanssouci wrote:

For a virus with a 98% survival rate and with the average age of Covid death being 82, it's understandable why a young healthy individual would not want to take a risk of getting this vaccine with less than desirable reported side effects. With all the data that is available now, it is clear that this vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid, nor does it prevent you from spreading it to others. The vast majority of healthy individuals recover from it just like they recover from a seasonal flu.


The survival rate of the vaccine is much, much higher than the survival rate of Covid (without a vaccine). The long term effects of the vaccine are basically inexistant, whereas they are relatively common with Covid. Considering the death rate of getting Covid while being vaccinated falls dramatically, the overall risk equation favors the vaccine so much it's not even funny. As the risk to any individual of catching Covid over time increases to almost being a certainty, the only statistical data worth considering is the difference in Covid outcome between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people and adjust this for possible vaccine side-effects. And the data has spoken...
This flawed and misguided reasoning reminds me of the early days of airbags when people pretended that they were unsafe because people still died in car accidents with them...

...

There will be a patchwork of requirements until the courts (most likely at a higher appellate level) have spoken, at least in countries with strong human rights laws. In the US no airline so far has mandated it. Delta and American openly said that they would not. United, in fact, signed agreements with both pilot and cabin crew unions that explicitly state that vaccinations would not be mandatory for either employee groups (for operational reasons, however, they might be required to be vaccinated in order to fly to certain destinations).


As the list of places requiring vaccination airlines fly to increases, any non-vaccinated crew will become more of a hassle and liability for their employer (at least for international travel). They may not mandate them to be vaccinated, but they may well decide that they are unable to perform the duties they are contracted to do.. There is nothing that prevents an employer from terminating an employee if that employee is unable to do what they're paid to do, regardless of whether it is the employee's own fault or not.
Personal rights and freedoms are one thing but ultimately, in business, money talks...


All in all, you are the typical anti-vaxxer. You misinterpret and misrepresent data to fit your own flawed narrative.
Don't get the vaccine if you don't want to (it's not like facts can ever change your mind), but please don't pretend that your stance is in any way substantiated by data.


This is the Singapore data since April on differences between fully vaccinated, one dose only and non-vaccinated for those infected by COVID, vast majority being Delta variant (most transmissible, most severe). Vaccines are either Pfizer or Moderna.

Image

It shows how well vaccines work, but a full regime is needed. It also shows there is a significant reduction of chance of being infected in the first place. The ratios of fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated and non vaccinated was on average 30%-10%-60% during this period but infections are 20%-10%-70%. The source of the outbreak was Changi Airport even with more than 90% staff vaccinated. In Changi Airport, in general non-vaccinated persons infected vaccinated persons and reverse, but on the data I saw there was only 1 case of a vaccinated person infecting another vaccinated person.

It is now decided that Singapore will open up fully and on the assumption that COVID is endemic. Thus vaccination is a key pillar of the strategy. I assume that vaccination will be required to enter the country but with extensive testing + quarantine for those who can not or will not take vaccination. Hints have already been given that this will be the direction and similar measures are expected from other countries. The EU is also going in this direction. It is already required to be vaccinated against yellow fever when coming from Africa or South America. Many countries will implement similar schemes. This will result that airline personnel flying international routes will be required to be vaccinated otherwise they will not be able to do their job. If you are not vaccinated you probably fly domestic only. UA, FedEX or UPS crew will be required to be vaccinated regardless of what US regulations say, because in Singapore they need to comply to Singapore laws. And these airlines will have no problem finding crews who will meet requirements.

However, for airlines only flying international (EK, QR, CX, SQ and others) it will be no vaccine, then either look for a ground job or find another job. EK and CX have already clearly stated this will be the case. And this is nothing new: my father had to be mandatory vaccinated every 6 months as a captain of a large container ship. That was a horrible cocktail of everything in one go (hepatitis, TB, tetanus, typhoid, yellow fever and some other stuff) which would make him sick for a week. Would he have refused, he would have been terminated. And that was in the EU. But if not vaccinated the ship would not have been able to enter most ports.

Most countries are still too low in vaccination rates to say that herd immunity is achieved. It is estimated that 70% fully vaccinated is needed for the older variants and 85% is needed for the Delta variant. No larger country has hit that number. Even Israel is stuck at 65% and that is too low. Some countries in Europe have achieved 80-90% rates of certain vulnerable groups and the results are very clear and very positive.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
sanssouci
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:24 am

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:38 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Personal rights and freedoms are one thing but ultimately, in business, money talks...


Oh, and one more thing. I would love to see a reaction of any presiding Judge when this type of bullet-proof and sound legal argument is put before him or her in any democratic country.

:lol:
 
ElectroWizard
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:16 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:55 pm

The long term effects of the vaccine are basically inexistant...

The experimental Covid vaccine hasn't been on the market long enough to know what the long term side effects are.
If you are certain there are none then you should share your data with the scientists.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16143
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:06 pm

Francoflier wrote:
mandating inbound crew to be vaccinated to be allowed through a border is well within the power of any nation, and I think that this should (and likely will) become the norm once vaccines are reasonably available throughout the World.


This is very true, I still have my WHO passport for Cholera and Yellow Fever vaccinations. This is a requirement to enter and also return from some countries.

sanssouci wrote:
Me, you, airlines or government officials. All of this will inevitably end up in Supreme Courts of most countries, and what what matters is how they rule under a thorough legal scrutiny using hard scientific data.


I think you will find this is misguided.
1) in most countries there is no right or constitutional basis that requires a government to issue a passport, and a passport once issued can be cancelled. A passport generally has words to the effect that the document is the property of the government. This is done deliberately as the retention or destruction of a passport is akin to theft or damaging the property of another government.
2) in most countries there is no constitutional right to travel internationally, rights of travel are given within a country.
3) airlines that either private or government owned have the right to set policies which employees are bound by, and employees agree to be bound by these policies when they join a company. An individual has the right not to agree to those policies, and the employer will respect those rights and not employ them.
4) vaccinations do not totally prevent the spread of disease (vaccinated people can carry COVID), nor will they prevent all adverse effects. They do however reduce the impact to a level where the health system can cope with it.
5) adverse effects from something like a blood clot from a vaccination are very low, if you have COVID the possibility of having a fatal blood clot rises to 20%.
6) every vaccine has different effectiveness against different strains, for example the Johnson & Johnson was said best against the South African strain, and Pfizer- BioNTech best against the Delta strain.

Personally I would like everyone that works at an airport, crew, and passengers above 12 to be vaccinated. I think it is far better to get vaccinated over a month before planned travel and continue with your normal daily life 1and not need to quarantine than to waste weeks of your life in quarantine after travel.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
UA748i
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:17 pm

DualQual wrote:
UA748i wrote:
lijnden wrote:
With all the reported safety issues of the jabs alone, one might wonder how safe it is to mandate this for the pilots? By the way: it is legally not even a vaccin, it is a chemical shot.


Righto.

One of the prime reasons why I will vehemently refuse it, even at the detriment of my occupation. Its not worth the risk.


And yet you are willing to chance the higher likelihood of more severe complications from the virus itself?


Considering that this virus has a 99.998% survival rate, I am in my 20s, have no preexisting conditions, AND, that these vaccines are showing to have MAJOR side effects that are life altering/ending...then yeah, I am! You bet I am!

Because we have made the "cure" worse than the disease. Im pretty lucky, my airline has not violated the individual right to choose ones own medical needs up until now, and I hope it stays that way.
 
aklrno
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:42 pm

Check that survival rate again. In the US there are about 12,000 new cases per day and about 300 deaths. My math says about 97.5% survival. That’s not very precise because rates are changing and deaths lag infection by a few weeks, but close enough.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22442
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:43 pm

aklrno wrote:
Check that survival rate again. In the US there are about 12,000 new cases per day and about 300 deaths. My math says about 97.5% survival. That’s not very precise because rates are changing and deaths lag infection by a few weeks, but close enough.

While good enough numbers, I care more about long haul effects of the virus:
Lung scarring
Heart damage
Brain damage (scary that is why loss of taste and smell).

Anyone in a customer facing position must be vaccinated. I do not like mandates or passports, but they will be required.


Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
whiplash
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:56 pm

Air India
IndiGo
Spicejet
Vistara
 
UA748i
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:03 pm

aklrno wrote:
Check that survival rate again. In the US there are about 12,000 new cases per day and about 300 deaths. My math says about 97.5% survival. That’s not very precise because rates are changing and deaths lag infection by a few weeks, but close enough.


Those are reported cases. How do you know those who died did so because of the virus, and not because of a preexisting condition made worse by the virus? Do you have that data?
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:13 pm

aklrno wrote:
I was amused by the comment that COVID has a 98% survival rate and most deaths are in the elderly. The death rate for the elderly in the US is now very low because more than 85% of us have been vaccinated. Most deaths now are younger people. Last I checked that’s more than 300 per day.

For perspective that’s about the loss of one 777 or 350 per day. If that were happening would you get in that plane? Or if you were told that you had a 98% chance of living through a flight would you get on that plane? The rare chance of a fatal side effect is far far far less. The chance of getting COVID repeats every day. The odds of eventually getting it without the vaccine should scare you.


We are all going to die eventually anyway. I am perfectly fine with dying from the virus than risking a chance something happens from the vaccine. At least a virus is a naturally occurring thing that can kill anyone whereas inflicting the vaccine on yourself was in essence you killing your self
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2314
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:41 pm

They aren't mandating it for staff in the US because a complication from an employer mandated medical procedure results in disability and a huge settlement.

A single pilot who medicals out over it will cost the airline 5+ million, probably more.
 
FlyingHonu001
Topic Author
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:55 pm

wingflex744 wrote:

Yes, you can add EVA Airways and China Airlines.


whiplash wrote:
Air India
IndiGo
Spicejet
Vistara


Thanks for the additions. Recently found out that AA is also giving staff vaccinations.
Source: https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlin ... id-19.html


Airline list updated

- Etihad Airways
- Emirates
- Qatar Airways
- El Al
- United
- American Airlines
- Singapore
- Lufthansa
- LATAM
- GOL
- Azul
- Turkish Airlines
- Pegasus Airlines
- Air Canada
- Vietnam Airlines
- EVA Air
- China Airlines
- Air India
- IndiGo Aviation
- Spicejet
- Vistara

Any more airlines?
Last edited by FlyingHonu001 on Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BAINY3
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:59 pm

Vast majority of recent comments in this thread are non-aviation at this point
 
RobertS975
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:18 pm

sanssouci wrote:
DualQual wrote:
UA748i wrote:

Righto.

One of the prime reasons why I will vehemently refuse it, even at the detriment of my occupation. Its not worth the risk.


And yet you are willing to chance the higher likelihood of more severe complications from the virus itself?


For a virus with a 98% survival rate and with the average age of Covid death being 82, it's understandable why a young healthy individual would not want to take a risk of getting this vaccine with less than desirable reported side effects. With all the data that is available now, it is clear that this vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid, nor does it prevent you from spreading it to others. The vast majority of healthy individuals recover from it just like they recover from a seasonal flu.

Just yesterday (June 24, 2021) Forbes published an article about Israel, which is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. It says "as many as 50% of Israel’s new cases are among vaccinated people..." With more and more emerging statistics like this, how can one argue that mandating vaccine scientifically makes sense?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart ... 1d839b6d09

Airlines (or companies) can require whatever they want from their employees, but they ought to be prepared for a very tough legal challenges, especially in Western countries. Proving in court (with available scientific data) that the mandate makes sense, and is reasonable, would be an uphill battle because:

a) this is an experimenta/EUA vaccine, which, by law cannot be mandated, at least in the US,
b) there is not enough long term safety data that would allow an individual to make a fully informed decision and give an informed consent,
c) more than enough safety issues have been reported for a reasonable individual to pause and asses his/her risk profile,
d) overwhelming data, including statements from public health officials, proves that the vaccine does not prevent an individual from getting or spreading the virus. Just this recent report from MA shows that nearly 4000 fully vaccinated people were infected with Covid (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 70821.html).
e) airlines have been adamant throughout 2020 that getting Covid on board was virtually impossible (due to filtration systems, etc.).

There will be a patchwork of requirements until the courts (most likely at a higher appellate level) have spoken, at least in countries with strong human rights laws. In the US no airline so far has mandated it. Delta and American openly said that they would not. United, in fact, signed agreements with both pilot and cabin crew unions that explicitly state that vaccinations would not be mandatory for either employee groups (for operational reasons, however, they might be required to be vaccinated in order to fly to certain destinations).


OK, as a physician who actually delivered several thousand Moderna shots into arms, let me make some comments.

First, just because someone doesn't die from the virus doesn't mean that they have recovered. A very significant percentage of people have long term effects from the virus, up to and including long term disabling effects. Some people actually will require heart or lung transplants.

Second, a breakthrough Covid rate of 1 in a thousand is fantastic, and most of them are actually asymptomatic because their viral loads are so low. And because their viral loads are so low, they DO NOT transmit the disease to others, especially to other fully vaccinated people. All of the 7 NY Yankees who were vaccinated with the J&J vaccine that tested positive were asymptomatic, and there was no secondary transmission to other teammates, even the unvaccinated ones.

The vaccines are currently being used under an EUA, but both Pfizer and Moderna have applied for full FDA approval, likely to be given before September. In order to apply for full FDA approval, the companies needed 6 months of safety data, which they now have. This will undoubtedly be the first time an approval was applied for where the doses given already far exceed a billion!

Courts in Texas have already ruled that hospitals can require the vaccine for their empoyees. The largest hospital systems in Massachusetts have announced that all employees will need to be vaccinated. Many universities have required their students to be vaccinated. One school made it optional, but charges an unvaccinated student an extra $1500 per semester for the cost of testing twice weekly!

Unvaccinated people will be unable to travel to the EU without a 10 day quarantine.

As for people needing booster vaccines in the future, we will worry about that when the time comes. Not a good reason for vaccine hesitancy now!
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:24 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
sanssouci wrote:
DualQual wrote:

And yet you are willing to chance the higher likelihood of more severe complications from the virus itself?


For a virus with a 98% survival rate and with the average age of Covid death being 82, it's understandable why a young healthy individual would not want to take a risk of getting this vaccine with less than desirable reported side effects. With all the data that is available now, it is clear that this vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid, nor does it prevent you from spreading it to others. The vast majority of healthy individuals recover from it just like they recover from a seasonal flu.

Just yesterday (June 24, 2021) Forbes published an article about Israel, which is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. It says "as many as 50% of Israel’s new cases are among vaccinated people..." With more and more emerging statistics like this, how can one argue that mandating vaccine scientifically makes sense?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart ... 1d839b6d09

Airlines (or companies) can require whatever they want from their employees, but they ought to be prepared for a very tough legal challenges, especially in Western countries. Proving in court (with available scientific data) that the mandate makes sense, and is reasonable, would be an uphill battle because:

a) this is an experimenta/EUA vaccine, which, by law cannot be mandated, at least in the US,
b) there is not enough long term safety data that would allow an individual to make a fully informed decision and give an informed consent,
c) more than enough safety issues have been reported for a reasonable individual to pause and asses his/her risk profile,
d) overwhelming data, including statements from public health officials, proves that the vaccine does not prevent an individual from getting or spreading the virus. Just this recent report from MA shows that nearly 4000 fully vaccinated people were infected with Covid (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 70821.html).
e) airlines have been adamant throughout 2020 that getting Covid on board was virtually impossible (due to filtration systems, etc.).

There will be a patchwork of requirements until the courts (most likely at a higher appellate level) have spoken, at least in countries with strong human rights laws. In the US no airline so far has mandated it. Delta and American openly said that they would not. United, in fact, signed agreements with both pilot and cabin crew unions that explicitly state that vaccinations would not be mandatory for either employee groups (for operational reasons, however, they might be required to be vaccinated in order to fly to certain destinations).


OK, as a physician who actually delivered several thousand Moderna shots into arms, let me make some comments.

First, just because someone doesn't die from the virus doesn't mean that they have recovered. A very significant percentage of people have long term effects from the virus, up to and including long term disabling effects. Some people actually will require heart or lung transplants.

Second, a breakthrough Covid rate of 1 in a thousand is fantastic, and most of them are actually asymptomatic because their viral loads are so low. And because their viral loads are so low, they DO NOT transmit the disease to others, especially to other fully vaccinated people. All of the 7 NY Yankees who were vaccinated with the J&J vaccine that tested positive were asymptomatic, and there was no secondary transmission to other teammates, even the unvaccinated ones.

The vaccines are currently being used under an EUA, but both Pfizer and Moderna have applied for full FDA approval, likely to be given before September. In order to apply for full FDA approval, the companies needed 6 months of safety data, which they now have. This will undoubtedly be the first time an approval was applied for where the doses given already far exceed a billion!

Courts in Texas have already ruled that hospitals can require the vaccine for their empoyees. The largest hospital systems in Massachusetts have announced that all employees will need to be vaccinated. Many universities have required their students to be vaccinated. One school made it optional, but charges an unvaccinated student an extra $1500 per semester for the cost of testing twice weekly!

Unvaccinated people will be unable to travel to the EU without a 10 day quarantine.

As for people needing booster vaccines in the future, we will worry about that when the time comes. Not a good reason for vaccine hesitancy now!


I’m not sure what the concern is if 70% of the population is vaccinated anyway. Requiring vaccines for employees when in general 70-80% will get it anyhow is fine. Who cares about the 20-30% who decide not to do it
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Airlines vaccinating their personnel/staff

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:42 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
I’m not sure what the concern is if 70% of the population is vaccinated anyway. Requiring vaccines for employees when in general 70-80% will get it anyhow is fine. Who cares about the 20-30% who decide not to do it


Because airline personnel are at higher risk of coming into contact with infected people, or if infected transmit the infection to others. Many have to travel internationally and enter foreign countries as part of their jobs. Most foreign countries are likely to require vaccination of airline flight crews and ship crews in the near future. It's like working in healthcare, if you want to stay employed you'll have to get vaccinated.

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