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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3921
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:18 pm

Opus99 wrote:
keesje wrote:
planecane wrote:
Certainly possible that they would convert the A350 orders into a larger order of A321s.

Airbus keeps the same order value (or close), United gets to downsize the widebody fleet while keeping capability and gets the A321NEO for the routes where it makes more sense than a MAX 10.


United didn't do so when they ordered the A321XLR's did they? On top, what would UA order to replace their 777 on the pacific? A combined 777-8 (Cargo) / 787-9 (range)/ 787-10 (capacity) fleet? SQ, QF, JAL, DL, CX made other trade-offs (A350-900/-1000 fleets).

More hope than logic it seems.

Doesn’t the 787-9 do transpacific for United? Many airlines have replaced 777s with 787-9s. Like American. Does United want to have 350s. How much RR exposure does UA currently have? It might not be the 350 that’s the problem for UA. It might be the fact that GE is not an option. I don’t know anyway. But what can the 350 do that cannot be done between the 787-9 and the 787-10. How many airlines do you know have 787-9 787-10 AND 350-900. None


Vietnam Airlines has that fleet mix. The Singapore Airlines Group does as well (including Scoot, Singapore Airlines has all 3 size variants and a sizeable A359 fleet). BA doesn't have the A350-900, but the A350-1000, alongside the B788/9/X. That said, I expect A321neos in a domestic and an international configuration...possibly not dissimilar to the Oasis American A321neos for the non-international frames.

As for the A350 and United, I can't see it happening, as the only RR-powered frames in the fleet are currently 757s.
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:30 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
keesje wrote:

United didn't do so when they ordered the A321XLR's did they? On top, what would UA order to replace their 777 on the pacific? A combined 777-8 (Cargo) / 787-9 (range)/ 787-10 (capacity) fleet? SQ, QF, JAL, DL, CX made other trade-offs (A350-900/-1000 fleets).

More hope than logic it seems.

Doesn’t the 787-9 do transpacific for United? Many airlines have replaced 777s with 787-9s. Like American. Does United want to have 350s. How much RR exposure does UA currently have? It might not be the 350 that’s the problem for UA. It might be the fact that GE is not an option. I don’t know anyway. But what can the 350 do that cannot be done between the 787-9 and the 787-10. How many airlines do you know have 787-9 787-10 AND 350-900. None


Vietnam Airlines has that fleet mix. The Singapore Airlines Group does as well (including Scoot, Singapore Airlines has all 3 size variants and a sizeable A359 fleet). BA doesn't have the A350-900, but the A350-1000, alongside the B788/9/X. That said, I expect A321neos in a domestic and an international configuration...possibly not dissimilar to the Oasis American A321neos for the non-international frames.

As for the A350 and United, I can't see it happening, as the only RR-powered frames in the fleet are currently 757s.

Ah right Vietnam. I forgot.
How are they finding that?

Yes within groups but very different operations. Scoot and Singapore very different models. So within the airline itself no. BA thé 1000 is differentiated. I’m focusing just 9/10 and 900
 
planecane
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:38 pm

keesje wrote:
planecane wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/leehamnews/status/1403039564730535937?s=21

Scott Hamilton feels even with just the 321neo increase the 350 maybe a wrap.

@Keesje if United orders another batch of 787s, do you really feel they will still take those 350s?

Certainly possible that they would convert the A350 orders into a larger order of A321s.

Airbus keeps the same order value (or close), United gets to downsize the widebody fleet while keeping capability and gets the A321NEO for the routes where it makes more sense than a MAX 10.


United didn't do so when they ordered the A321XLR's did they? On top, what would UA order to replace their 777 on the pacific? A combined 777-8 (Cargo) / 787-9 (range)/ 787-10 (capacity) fleet? SQ, QF, JAL, DL, CX made other trade-offs (A350-900/-1000 fleets).

More hope than logic it seems.


Not hope, just a possibility if United doesn't want the A350s. They could go to a 787 and 777-300 widebody fleet like American in the medium term.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if United gets A350s or not. I don't own Boeing stock nor United Stock. The last widebody I was on was a Delta 767 from HNL to ATL in 2006.
 
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Revelation
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:51 pm

marcelh wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX.

What momentum? IMHO those were sales Boeing could count on. AS, WN and FR are all (almost) only 737 users, so for the forseeable future the 737MAX will be the new kid in town (and withdraw the remaining Airbus). UA is looking for a mixed fleet, so they order both in quantities it suits them best.

Such a negative take. Boeing not only got orders from AS and WN, but both were bumped up shortly thereafter. FR made a big order then started talking about ordering 100 MAX-10s. Locking in orders early lets Boeing order long lead time parts early and lets them get to volume discount tiers with their suppliers early which definitely does build momentum.
 
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william
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:03 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX. I consider this order likely.

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Revelation, just where did the Boeing 737-7 order United couldn't refuse go? Did they refuse?
I even remember DoC stepping in to prevent CSeries getting a foothold. Things progressed since then I guess.

As you know the end result was a stalemate, UA hasn't taken -7, -700 or A220.
I don't see any progress that would change UA's decision making in favor of the A220.
Adding more MAX8 makes it easier for them to add MAX7 and more difficult to justify A220.
See smartplane's posts on post delivery credits for more info.

The A220 would require a really good offer to UA to be considered as they would, in my opinion, only buy a large fleet (much larger than prior discussion).

While possible, unlikely to see the A220 at UA. Airbus should try, but it becomes a question of, is the sale worth it?

Lightsaber


I believe the British Airways order has not been firmed up, so more Max orders are on the way.
 
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william
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
marcelh wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX.

What momentum? IMHO those were sales Boeing could count on. AS, WN and FR are all (almost) only 737 users, so for the forseeable future the 737MAX will be the new kid in town (and withdraw the remaining Airbus). UA is looking for a mixed fleet, so they order both in quantities it suits them best.

Such a negative take. Boeing not only got orders from AS and WN, but both were bumped up shortly thereafter. FR made a big order then started talking about ordering 100 MAX-10s. Locking in orders early lets Boeing order long lead time parts early and lets them get to volume discount tiers with their suppliers early which definitely does build momentum.


The truth of the matter is Airbus and Boeing are not soccer teams that are cheered for as in a game, but cold blooded corporations. They both sell products that move people efficiently. To airline execs, these aircrafts are assets, a means to an end and nothing more.

Airbus will be happy to take more orders for their high margin A321XLR.
Last edited by william on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Delta28L
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:23 pm

Wonder if the 777x is in consideration
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:24 pm

Delta28L wrote:
Wonder if the 777x is in consideration

As much as I would love that. I doubt it
 
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keesje
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:37 pm

william wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX. I consider this order likely.

Revelation wrote:
As you know the end result was a stalemate, UA hasn't taken -7, -700 or A220.
I don't see any progress that would change UA's decision making in favor of the A220.
Adding more MAX8 makes it easier for them to add MAX7 and more difficult to justify A220.
See smartplane's posts on post delivery credits for more info.

The A220 would require a really good offer to UA to be considered as they would, in my opinion, only buy a large fleet (much larger than prior discussion).

While possible, unlikely to see the A220 at UA. Airbus should try, but it becomes a question of, is the sale worth it?

Lightsaber


I believe the British Airways order has not been firmed up, so more Max orders are on the way.


I think the IAG LOI was mainly a signal to Airbus IAG (scoring A319, A320,A320, NEO's, A380s, A350s over recent decades) to stay honest on pricing. E.g. for 737s BA and IB would have re-install bulk loading infrastructure across their european networks, airports. Not really a very good idea, I think.

Image
https://morepremium.com/review-british- ... -heathrow/
 
jayunited
Posts: 3608
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:42 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.


A 787 order does not necessarily mean the A350 is a wrap, I don't know how much you've been following the Pratt and Whitney issues over on the United Fleet and Network thread. Here is the abbreviated version, UA's PW 77Es fan blades have been inspected no cracks found however Boeing needs to either redesign or strengthen the engine cowling. All 77Es that were in service at the time of the grounding have been flown to long term storage. However there were cracks found on more fan blades on the 77A fleet. United has 19 PW 77As in the fleet and as of today only 1 PW 77A model has been flown to long term storage every other 77A model has not return to the skies since the grounding and remains grounded at what ever airport the aircraft was at when the fleet was grounded. United expects the PW 77Es to return to service in 2022 but there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding the 77As because it would involve PW fixing the fan blades for an engine no longer in production.

The additional 787 order could be a replacement for the 77As if there is no way for those aircraft to safely return to service.
 
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par13del
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:46 pm

keesje wrote:
I think the IAG LOI was mainly a signal to Airbus IAG (scoring A319, A320,A320, NEO's, A380s, A350s over recent decades) to stay honest on pricing. E.g. for 737s BA and IB would have re-install bulk loading infrastructure across their european networks, airports. Not really a very good idea, I think.

If IAG knows that one would think that Airbus knows that also, so the reason why they would give an honest price is??????especially if there were no 737 operators in Europe to
show IAG how.
On another front, I thought only Boeing needed to be kept honest on prices......
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:46 pm

jayunited wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.


A 787 order does not necessarily mean the A350 is a wrap, I don't know how much you've been following the Pratt and Whitney issues over on the United Fleet and Network thread. Here is the abbreviated version, UA's PW 77Es fan blades have been inspected no cracks found however Boeing needs to either redesign or strengthen the engine cowling. All 77Es that were in service at the time of the grounding have been flown to long term storage. However there were cracks found on more fan blades on the 77A fleet. United has 19 PW 77As in the fleet and as of today only 1 PW 77A model has been flown to long term storage every other 77A model has not return to the skies since the grounding and remains grounded at what ever airport the aircraft was at when the fleet was grounded. United expects the PW 77Es to return to service in 2022 but there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding the 77As.

The additional 787 order could be a replacement for the 77As if there is no way for aircraft to safely return to service.

You did point that if the PW engine stuff don’t work out United could bring forward 350. That’s true.

It’s just when you see them keep adding 787s and then have pushed the 350 out that far, looking at ordering 60 plus 321neos. It just seems like for UA. The 350 deal is something they can do without
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 pm

Opus99 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.


A 787 order does not necessarily mean the A350 is a wrap, I don't know how much you've been following the Pratt and Whitney issues over on the United Fleet and Network thread. Here is the abbreviated version, UA's PW 77Es fan blades have been inspected no cracks found however Boeing needs to either redesign or strengthen the engine cowling. All 77Es that were in service at the time of the grounding have been flown to long term storage. However there were cracks found on more fan blades on the 77A fleet. United has 19 PW 77As in the fleet and as of today only 1 PW 77A model has been flown to long term storage every other 77A model has not return to the skies since the grounding and remains grounded at what ever airport the aircraft was at when the fleet was grounded. United expects the PW 77Es to return to service in 2022 but there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding the 77As.

The additional 787 order could be a replacement for the 77As if there is no way for aircraft to safely return to service.

You did point that if the PW engine stuff don’t work out United could bring forward 350. That’s true.

It’s just when you see them keep adding 787s and then have pushed the 350 out that far, looking at ordering 60 plus 321neos. It just seems like for UA. The 350 deal is something they can do without


Perhaps, but the "350 deal" is not just Airbus, its RR. There are no RRs on A321neos. Unless UA cancels or otherwise has a contractual out, it either keeps A350 or negotiates a swap to RR for 787s.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm

keesje wrote:
william wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX. I consider this order likely.


The A220 would require a really good offer to UA to be considered as they would, in my opinion, only buy a large fleet (much larger than prior discussion).

While possible, unlikely to see the A220 at UA. Airbus should try, but it becomes a question of, is the sale worth it?

Lightsaber


I believe the British Airways order has not been firmed up, so more Max orders are on the way.


I think the IAG LOI was mainly a signal to Airbus IAG (scoring A319, A320,A320, NEO's, A380s, A350s over recent decades) to stay honest on pricing. E.g. for 737s BA and IB would have re-install bulk loading infrastructure across their european networks, airports. Not really a very good idea, I think.

Image
https://morepremium.com/review-british- ... -heathrow/

I believe the IAG order might still happen, just at more discounted pricing. Airbus could win the order, but Boeing will compete.

The LCC divisions of IAG would do fine. I like the A32x cargo system, but that is just one column of a decision spreadsheet. I've seen customer decision spreadsheets and it is amazing how logistics costs you wouldn't consider important can swing an order.

For IAG, the parts could sway everything.
For Delta, it is being allowed to do engine repairs.

While Airbus has good product in the A321, the A320 is ripe for competition and the -9 and -10 compete enough.

I see UA completing this MAX order and more to come. Oh, I think Airbus will have 60% of the narrowbody market, but that isn't the same as sure thing. And widebodies won't recover for years in my opinion...

Lightsaber
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 pm

Anyone else think this could be a 787-10ER launch? If so, bye bye A350 with Boeing eating the RR penalty as a term of the purchase.
 
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par13del
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Perhaps, but the "350 deal" is not just Airbus, its RR. There are no RRs on A321neos. Unless UA cancels or otherwise has a contractual out, it either keeps A350 or negotiates a swap to RR for 787s.

Does sound weird that an airline would deploy aircraft that they do not need because they cannot get out of an engine order, tail...dog...wagging....
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 pm

par13del wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Perhaps, but the "350 deal" is not just Airbus, its RR. There are no RRs on A321neos. Unless UA cancels or otherwise has a contractual out, it either keeps A350 or negotiates a swap to RR for 787s.

Does sound weird that an airline would deploy aircraft that they do not need because they cannot get out of an engine order, tail...dog...wagging....

They won’t. But they may continue kicking the can down the road (like, as a completely random example, deferring deliveries to 8 years in the future ;) ) to buy time for either need of aircraft or in hopes things will happen in meantime that will help them get out of aircraft (eg re engines, new product offerings, etc) without losing money invested.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:09 pm

par13del wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Perhaps, but the "350 deal" is not just Airbus, its RR. There are no RRs on A321neos. Unless UA cancels or otherwise has a contractual out, it either keeps A350 or negotiates a swap to RR for 787s.

Does sound weird that an airline would deploy aircraft that they do not need because they cannot get out of an engine order, tail...dog...wagging....


First, I did not say UA could not get out of an engine contract - although that would be VERY expensive for UA to buy 80+ engines it won't use. Second, on what basis does UA not "need" the aircraft? Just because UA has a similar-sized Boeing aircraft does not mean the A350 doesn't have a role. UA could want diversification to hedge against a grounding of a fleet. UA also doesn't have to get the full spec A350 and can instead do some variations. Regardless, to ignore that there are costs associated with exiting the RR engine contract is not the tail wagging the dog - its an important business consideration.
 
744SPX
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:10 pm

Everything about this deal sounds great, except for the MAX part. Hope it doesn't come to fruition.
 
DBKissORD
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:13 pm

I realize this is not ideal but why couldn’t they buy RR powered 787s? That should solve the problem. Or buy the 80 engines and resell them?
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 pm

DBKissORD wrote:
I realize this is not ideal but why couldn’t they buy RR powered 787s? That should solve the problem. Or buy the 80 engines and resell them?

Because they would need to buy a ton of 787s, not just so they wouldn’t be an annoying oddball but also to meet value of TXWB order (remember- a T1000 is cheaper than a TXWB).

As for trying to resell 80 engines-that is a lot of engines. Airbus is not going to buy TXWBs from UA for use on new planes, and most airlines might only have a couple spares max, they don’t want to hold on to expensive unneeded inventory. Engines are usually not replaced that much unless there is something fundamentally wrong with them that would also probably effect UA’s batch too.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 pm

[url][/url]
DBKissORD wrote:
I realize this is not ideal but why couldn’t they buy RR powered 787s? That should solve the problem. Or buy the 80 engines and resell them?


Because the RR engines are garbage on the 787?
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 623
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:54 am

Polot wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Another bonus of a large order like this is the new frames would arrive with the new livery
and most likely replace frames in the old gold livery, thus saving UA some money on repainting :)

Erm... I won't get my hope too high, they just launched a revised EvoBlue livery. Don't think they will re-brand any time soon. But one can always hope. :p

By new livery he meant the EvoBlue livery.

Hahaha....Sorry, read wrongly. Apologies to @Sooner787.

With the rumoured 300 aircraft order (250 for MAX and 787 and 60 A321neo) circling, the new order will well covered the replacement for the older A319/A320, B737NG, B757/B767 with room for some more in future. I have to agree with some posters here, let's not jump on the gun too fast by saying the A350 is a wrap till the ink is dry.
 
UA857
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:28 am

Delta28L wrote:
Wonder if the 777x is in consideration



Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.
 
ewt340
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:47 am

johns624 wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Always felt that United current MAX order is inadquate to replace the current narrowbody. Hopefully we will see another 200 MAX fresh order on top of current ones.

Future Fleet/ To be Delivered:
B737 MAX 8 - 40 to be delivered
B737 MAX 9 - 30 delivered, 49 to be delivered
B737 MAX 10 - 100 to be delivered
A321XLR - 50 to be delivered
Total= 269

Current Fleet:
A319 - 94
A320 - 97
B737-700 - 40
B737-800 - 141
B737-900 - 12
B737-900ER - 136
B757-200 - 40
B757-300 - 21
Total= 481

Why do all of those have to be replaced? Some aren't that old.


Some of them probably reached their cycles before turning old.
Many of their B757 tend to fly longer routes, which mean that it would have less cycles. The other smaller narrowbodies though, could be used on short shuttle services, hence why they need to be retired first.
 
ewt340
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:54 am

UA857 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Wonder if the 777x is in consideration



Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.


I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.
 
UA857
Posts: 718
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:44 am

ewt340 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Wonder if the 777x is in consideration



Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.


I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.


UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:14 am

UA857 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
UA857 wrote:


Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.


I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.


UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.


While it's true UA didn't replace the 44 744s on a one for one basis with 77Ws there is no gap in the fleet. Any lost capacity was made up years ago by 77Es and 789s. If UA feels they need additional 747 sized aircraft they are better off finding 77Ws on the used market (there are a LOT of those available right now.)

If this 787 order materializes I'm wondering if it might be for 788s and be used to start replacing the 767 fleet. I know it's not the ideal aircraft but I'm not sure UA wants to wait for Boeing to sort out the MoM aircraft and UA doesn't seem to want the A330.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:43 am

UA857 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
UA857 wrote:


Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.


I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.


UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.


(1) there is no "22-plane gap"
(2) UA isn't going to order a plane to keep a production line going
 
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par13del
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 am

jbs2886 wrote:
par13del wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Perhaps, but the "350 deal" is not just Airbus, its RR. There are no RRs on A321neos. Unless UA cancels or otherwise has a contractual out, it either keeps A350 or negotiates a swap to RR for 787s.

Does sound weird that an airline would deploy aircraft that they do not need because they cannot get out of an engine order, tail...dog...wagging....


First, I did not say UA could not get out of an engine contract - although that would be VERY expensive for UA to buy 80+ engines it won't use. Second, on what basis does UA not "need" the aircraft? Just because UA has a similar-sized Boeing aircraft does not mean the A350 doesn't have a role. UA could want diversification to hedge against a grounding of a fleet. UA also doesn't have to get the full spec A350 and can instead do some variations. Regardless, to ignore that there are costs associated with exiting the RR engine contract is not the tail wagging the dog - its an important business consideration.

On the basis that they first deferred, then increased the order, then deferred again, while still taking new a/c which are slightly smaller - 787 -.
No one said the A350 does not have a role, no idea where you are getting that from, as for diversification, you get that by taking up the order not placing and deferring.
As for the last, that is what the comment is all about, the speculation that UA is kicking the can down the road and keeping the order because it is too expensive to get out of the engine contract. Yes the a/c cannot function without the engine, but are engines now more important than the actual a/c, like the DL speculation that if they cannot get a MRO for Leap they will not buy Boeing a/c, things have changed.
 
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seahawk
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:02 am

william wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX. I consider this order likely.

Revelation wrote:
As you know the end result was a stalemate, UA hasn't taken -7, -700 or A220.
I don't see any progress that would change UA's decision making in favor of the A220.
Adding more MAX8 makes it easier for them to add MAX7 and more difficult to justify A220.
See smartplane's posts on post delivery credits for more info.

The A220 would require a really good offer to UA to be considered as they would, in my opinion, only buy a large fleet (much larger than prior discussion).

While possible, unlikely to see the A220 at UA. Airbus should try, but it becomes a question of, is the sale worth it?

Lightsaber


I believe the British Airways order has not been firmed up, so more Max orders are on the way.


The IAG order could be a turning point. If IAG moves to the MAX it will create strong momentum for Boeing.
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:21 am

Still no official announcement, huh? I thought the news would have crossed when the market closed. Hopefully there's some news tomorrow (Friday.)

Great deal if true. I was not expecting such a huge order, but I guess it may be time to finally start thinking about replacements for the legacy CO 737 and UA A320 fleets. Boeing also has plenty of MAX whitetails they'd be happy to get rid of.
 
marcelh
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:39 am

william wrote:
Revelation wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What momentum? IMHO those were sales Boeing could count on. AS, WN and FR are all (almost) only 737 users, so for the forseeable future the 737MAX will be the new kid in town (and withdraw the remaining Airbus). UA is looking for a mixed fleet, so they order both in quantities it suits them best.

Such a negative take. Boeing not only got orders from AS and WN, but both were bumped up shortly thereafter. FR made a big order then started talking about ordering 100 MAX-10s. Locking in orders early lets Boeing order long lead time parts early and lets them get to volume discount tiers with their suppliers early which definitely does build momentum.


The truth of the matter is Airbus and Boeing are not soccer teams that are cheered for as in a game, but cold blooded corporations. They both sell products that move people efficiently. To airline execs, these aircrafts are assets, a means to an end and nothing more.

Airbus will be happy to take more orders for their high margin A321XLR.


It wasn’t meant to be negative, just realistic. And the additional orders are in favor or both Boeing and the airline. IMHO those planes would have been sold sooner or later. A meaningful order of an airline which hasn’t ordered the MAX (example: AF-KLM ordering 100 MAX8 and -10 for KL, HV and TO) would really build momentum.
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:43 am

UA857 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
UA857 wrote:


Hmmmm? From watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYWoJBYNA8. I was thinking about UA ordering 22 779s and 8 778s. The 779s could make up for the remaining capacity that the 744 lost as 22 77Ws + 22 779s = 44 744s and could be based out of SFO and EWR along with the 77Ws that they will share there duties with. While the 778s could be used hot and high routes like EWR-JNB.


I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise
decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.


UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.


That’s exceptionally short sighted thinking. The 787 has filled that gap. Other than converting some 777s to HD configuration, United haven’t retired any other wide body aircraft but have taken delivery of 63 787s. This has completely negated the need for a 747 sized aircraft, by allowing them to launch new routes and/or increasing frequency. Look at the Australian market as an example. United used to fly 2 747s per day to SYD, with one continuing to MEL. Pre-COVID, they were operating 4-5 daily 787s in Winter and 3 daily 787s in Summer across LAX/SFO/IAH-SYD and LAX/SFO-MEL. A very different approach to the market, and one that has allowed them to significantly grow capacity. This is United’s future, they don’t need a ‘true’ 747 replacement.
 
UA857
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:14 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
UA857 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

I doubt its even in their radar at this point. Pretty sure B777-300ER was supposed to be the replacement aircraft for B747-400.
Also all of their B777-300ER are less than 5 year old, which mean that they would be used for at least another 15-25 years. You know how US3 love to work their jets to death.
I doubt ordering B777X for entry into operation in 2035-2045 would be a wise
decision. Would they even still be produced after that time?

Any further order from UA to Boeing would consist mainly of the MAXes and some B787. I doubt B777X would be in any of the frame.


UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.


That’s exceptionally short sighted thinking. The 787 has filled that gap. Other than converting some 777s to HD configuration, United haven’t retired any other wide body aircraft but have taken delivery of 63 787s. This has completely negated the need for a 747 sized aircraft, by allowing them to launch new routes and/or increasing frequency. Look at the Australian market as an example. United used to fly 2 747s per day to SYD, with one continuing to MEL. Pre-COVID, they were operating 4-5 daily 787s in Winter and 3 daily 787s in Summer across LAX/SFO/IAH-SYD and LAX/SFO-MEL. A very different approach to the market, and one that has allowed them to significantly grow capacity. This is United’s future, they don’t need a ‘true’ 747 replacement.


Ummm? Too many 787s and A350s might be actually be a curse for UA. UA is a hub-and-spoke airline and SFO and EWR have limited space available meaning that the only way to increase capacity is by the volume of passengers per flight and not the number of flights.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:30 am

UA857 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
UA857 wrote:

UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.


That’s exceptionally short sighted thinking. The 787 has filled that gap. Other than converting some 777s to HD configuration, United haven’t retired any other wide body aircraft but have taken delivery of 63 787s. This has completely negated the need for a 747 sized aircraft, by allowing them to launch new routes and/or increasing frequency. Look at the Australian market as an example. United used to fly 2 747s per day to SYD, with one continuing to MEL. Pre-COVID, they were operating 4-5 daily 787s in Winter and 3 daily 787s in Summer across LAX/SFO/IAH-SYD and LAX/SFO-MEL. A very different approach to the market, and one that has allowed them to significantly grow capacity. This is United’s future, they don’t need a ‘true’ 747 replacement.


Ummm? Too many 787s and A350s might be actually be a curse for UA. UA is a hub-and-spoke airline and SFO and EWR have limited space available meaning that the only way to increase capacity is by the volume of passengers per flight and not the number of flights.


Yet the slots were taken away from EWR. The airports, while very busy, are not full. There is plenty of RJ capacity that can be adjusted for wide bodies.
 
UA857
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:30 am

Also will 'United Coast' be introduced when the MAX 10 enters service. I could see UA configure the MAX 10 in a premium-heavy configuration similar to the consisting of lie-flat business class seats derived from the Polaris Business class product, Economy plus, and Basic economy and would not only be used on JFK/EWR/BOS-SFO/LAX but can also be used on IAD-SFO/LAX and EWR-SEA/LAS/SAN. 'United Coast' on the MAX 10 would be great competitor against Delta One and JetBlue Mint.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:54 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.


If this deal goes through like this, it is another door shut for the Boeing MoM. With that many aircraft coming in over the decade, and the relative small domestic growth potential combined with the long haul fleet age and composition we can see the trend towards the XLR as the smallest long haul aircraft, followed by the 787 and then as top end the 777. It would be somewhat stupid to add so many NEOS and 787s if you plan to place another aircraft family in the middle towards the end of the decade.

If all the orders go ahead we would have 100 MAX-10 and 120 NEO(XLR) as well as a lot of 787s (cant recall the number from memory). That is enough to cover all 757 and 767 and still grow the fleet...

If we see AA and DL top up their 321 orders next we know the direction of the pendulum in the MoM segment. Good thing is, that this also opens big sales for the 787 and 737 so I see more interesting announcements from Boeing over the next few months.
 
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par13del
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:03 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.


If this deal goes through like this, it is another door shut for the Boeing MoM.

A year or so ago after the engine OEM's down select, the rumors about the MOM was a difference in cargo capacity between the US domestics who need little and the international potentials who wanted more cargo capacity. This order may not shut the door or MOM but clarify the cargo position of the a/c, it would not be the first product produced by Boeing specifically for the international market.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:02 pm

UA857 wrote:
UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.



Lets be honest here when UA had 44 744s in the fleet United was a completely different carrier and the aviation industry was complete different as well. When we had 44 744s UA still operated a major hub at NRT, and mini hub at HKG. United operated extensive 5th freedom routes throughout Asia from NRT, at one point UA was operating up to 3 daily 744s between NRT and ICN. Contrast that with pre-pandemic UA was operating 10x weekly flight nonstop from SFO to ICN. The arrival of aircraft like the 787 and (for the aviation industry the A359) has really altered the landscape just look at all the nonstop flights long haul flights UA operated pre-pandemic on 789s. And while I'm being honest I have to say even though UA operated 44 744s at point in time how many of those flights on 744s went out completely fully? We both know the answer to that question is not that many which is why the fleet was eventually whittle down to 22-24 frames. Now days United has a lot more routes where we can reliably fill a 789, a 77E, a 78X and if the A359s show up we can fill a A359. There are a few routes that still need the capacity of the 77W, but we don't need 22 77W as well as 22 779s it is too much capacity for United.

Having said that I do see a future for the 779 or A35J at United but, only once the 22 77Ws reach the end of their life span in our fleet not before.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:26 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://airfinancejournal.com/articles/3583651/exclusive-united-in-talks-for-up-to-300-airbus-boeing

You guys this is a mega deal.

250 737s and 787s - 787s in the double digits

60+ A321s

WOW - I mean. Again. If this deal closes the 350 is a wrap.



Another thing that I just thought of concerns a potential 787 order and it was something Oscar Munoz and Scott Kirby spoke about at a in person town hall meeting at SFO way back in March or 2018.

At that town hall meeting Kirby told employees the 767s would be sticking around for some time because UA was very much interested in Boeing NMA and wanted to be the launch customer for the NMA. However he also stated if Boeing took to long to make a decision on the NMA United contingency plan for the 757 and 767 fleet would be to order A321s (United already has 50 A321XLRs on order) but UA could also order 788s as a replacement for our aging 763 fleet. He admitted the 788s are not the ideal replacement for 763s flying between EWR/IAD/ORD - Europe but if necessary UA would order 788s because it make more sense to take the 788 over the A330.

Right now Boeing seems to have their hand full between the FAA asking for more information on the 787s, making the necessary and required improvements to the MAX 10, and making sure the 777X meets all expectations, there is no chance of a NMA coming to the market by the time UA would need to retire our 763 fleet. So instead of assuming any additional 787 order would kill UA's A359 order you have to look at the entire fleet. Right now if we put UA's 19 77As to the side there is a good chance the Pratt and Whitney 77Es will return to the fleet in 2022, if so those aircraft are good until 2027 or longer and like I stated earlier UA expects the PW 77Es will return in 2022. UA also has an order on the books to replace all 752s frame for frame and it now looks like a potential order for more A321s but we have no replacement or order on the books for our 763s.

If you look at UA 788 and 789 nose numbers you will noticed our 788 nose number ends at 3913, but our 789 nose number doesn't begin until 3950 that was by design because UA wanted to leave 3914-3949 open just in case UA order more 788s. United is going to have to start retiring some of our 763s by 2025 but the longer we wait for Boing to decide on a NMA the more the airline is in jeopardy of not having a suitable replace for UA's aging 763s.
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:29 pm

jayunited wrote:
UA857 wrote:
UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.



Lets be honest here when UA had 44 744s in the fleet United was a completely different carrier and the aviation industry was complete different as well. When we had 44 744s UA still operated a major hub at NRT, and mini hub at HKG. United operated extensive 5th freedom routes throughout Asia from NRT, at one point UA was operating up to 3 daily 744s between NRT and ICN. Contrast that with pre-pandemic UA was operating 10x weekly flight nonstop from SFO to ICN. The arrival of aircraft like the 787 and (for the aviation industry the A359) has really altered the landscape just look at all the nonstop flights long haul flights UA operated pre-pandemic on 789s. And while I'm being honest I have to say even though UA operated 44 744s at point in time how many of those flights on 744s went out completely fully? We both know the answer to that question is not that many which is why the fleet was eventually whittle down to 22-24 frames. Now days United has a lot more routes where we can reliably fill a 789, a 77E, a 78X and if the A359s show up we can fill a A359. There are a few routes that still need the capacity of the 77W, but we don't need 22 77W as well as 22 779s it is too much capacity for United.

Having said that I do see a future for the 779 or A35J at United but, only once the 22 77Ws reach the end of their life span in our fleet not before.


There are some fairly new 77W's on the used aircraft market right now.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
UA857 wrote:
UA used to have 44 744s, as of now they only have 22 77Ws, that leaves a 22-plane gap in their fleet. So ordering 22 779s makes sense given that it would cover the loss capacity and also provide a lifeline for the 777X program given that the type hasn't sold well and with COVID and many airlines evaluating their 777X order it might be an opportunity for UA to order the 77Xs just to keep production going.



Lets be honest here when UA had 44 744s in the fleet United was a completely different carrier and the aviation industry was complete different as well. When we had 44 744s UA still operated a major hub at NRT, and mini hub at HKG. United operated extensive 5th freedom routes throughout Asia from NRT, at one point UA was operating up to 3 daily 744s between NRT and ICN. Contrast that with pre-pandemic UA was operating 10x weekly flight nonstop from SFO to ICN. The arrival of aircraft like the 787 and (for the aviation industry the A359) has really altered the landscape just look at all the nonstop flights long haul flights UA operated pre-pandemic on 789s. And while I'm being honest I have to say even though UA operated 44 744s at point in time how many of those flights on 744s went out completely fully? We both know the answer to that question is not that many which is why the fleet was eventually whittle down to 22-24 frames. Now days United has a lot more routes where we can reliably fill a 789, a 77E, a 78X and if the A359s show up we can fill a A359. There are a few routes that still need the capacity of the 77W, but we don't need 22 77W as well as 22 779s it is too much capacity for United.

Having said that I do see a future for the 779 or A35J at United but, only once the 22 77Ws reach the end of their life span in our fleet not before.


Good Post Jay. Pretty much validates the 787 family marketing program - point to point routes are the future. We saw this evolution with the overflying NRT hub by both UA and DL to other APAC destinations that resulted in the closure of both NRT hubs. From a customer standpoint, I sure don't miss the extra leg on the flights. I was on one of the later in life (last month or two) 744 flights from NRT>SFO and, as much as I liked the forward looking nose F seats of that bird, it was time to let them go.

I am excited about the 359 at UA and feel it fill fill a good gap in their product performance offering for the schedulers. I still can't believe that there are others who say it's not coming.
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 pm

UA857 wrote:
Ummm? Too many 787s and A350s might be actually be a curse for UA. UA is a hub-and-spoke airline and SFO and EWR have limited space available meaning that the only way to increase capacity is by the volume of passengers per flight and not the number of flights.



Or by adding capacity (and routing connecting passengers) through one of their five other hubs, which is exactly what UA has been doing. If you need more capacity from the east coast to Europe, you have IAD. If you need more capacity to Asia/Australia, you have IAH and DEN, and to a lesser extent LAX. More capacity in either direction could also be added from ORD. 767s could be upgauged to 787s.

Far more airlines (particularly those that have multiple geographically dispersed hubs such as US-based carriers) have found 747-sized (and larger) planes to be a curse than have found 787-sized planes to be a curse.

There’s also the simple fact that if traffic still increases beyond capacity, you simply focus on higher-yielding passengers and leave the lower-yield to someone else. That’s not unheard of either.
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
How many airlines do you know have 787-9 787-10 AND 350-900. None

Vietnam Airlines.
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:09 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
How many airlines do you know have 787-9 787-10 AND 350-900. None

Vietnam Airlines.

Someone pointed that out. Thanks.

How is that working out for them? That is a genuine question by the way
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:37 pm

seahawk wrote:
william wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm a cynic during negotiations, but if Boeing can clise the UA and FR deals as well as the already announced AS and WN orders, it gives momentum to the MAX. I consider this order likely.


The A220 would require a really good offer to UA to be considered as they would, in my opinion, only buy a large fleet (much larger than prior discussion).

While possible, unlikely to see the A220 at UA. Airbus should try, but it becomes a question of, is the sale worth it?

Lightsaber


I believe the British Airways order has not been firmed up, so more Max orders are on the way.


The IAG order could be a turning point. If IAG moves to the MAX it will create strong momentum for Boeing.


For IAG and the MAX, there is always the option of deploying them at Vueling. Delivery slots could also be sold to other airlines.
 
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:57 pm

marcelh wrote:
william wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Such a negative take. Boeing not only got orders from AS and WN, but both were bumped up shortly thereafter. FR made a big order then started talking about ordering 100 MAX-10s. Locking in orders early lets Boeing order long lead time parts early and lets them get to volume discount tiers with their suppliers early which definitely does build momentum.

The truth of the matter is Airbus and Boeing are not soccer teams that are cheered for as in a game, but cold blooded corporations. They both sell products that move people efficiently. To airline execs, these aircrafts are assets, a means to an end and nothing more.

Airbus will be happy to take more orders for their high margin A321XLR.

It wasn’t meant to be negative, just realistic. And the additional orders are in favor or both Boeing and the airline. IMHO those planes would have been sold sooner or later. A meaningful order of an airline which hasn’t ordered the MAX (example: AF-KLM ordering 100 MAX8 and -10 for KL, HV and TO) would really build momentum.

Going from negative orders to positive orders is a huge shift in momentum, even if the orders come from those who are return customers. They help build the volume needed to reduce costs and gain profits which allows you to be more aggressive with future sales.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 1032
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:01 pm

intotheair wrote:
Still no official announcement, huh? I thought the news would have crossed when the market closed. Hopefully there's some news tomorrow (Friday.)


Typically, bad news are left for Fridays and are announced just before or immediately after the markets close. Good news are reserved for early in the week. We'll see.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:02 pm

They said they’re in advanced talks. So this could usually go on for maybe another month before close. Usually if it was in a few days the report would’ve probably said something like “in the coming days”.

Let’s not forget how long before Southwest finally confirmed the MAX deal when we had known it was a go ahead for about 2 and a half weeks or so
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