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qf789
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Updated: United confirms order for 200 737MAX and 70 A321neo

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:09 am

According to the following article on Bloomberg United Airlines is advanced talks for at least 100 737MAX aircraft though it is being reported it could be as many as 150 737MAX aircraft

The order would be part of a larger order said to be a broader fleet revamp according to people close to the matter

Both Boeing and United Airlines have declined to comment on the matter


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK
Last edited by qf789 on Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seahawk
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:39 am

Would be good news for both sides.
 
LHAM
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:40 am

Great news for team Boeing. Hopefully the deal is not for a firesale price tag.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 am

Fingers crossed for MAX 7!
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 am

I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:16 am

Angels and ministers of grace defend us!
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:22 am

It’s obvious Boeing’s customers will not let Boeing move on from this plane. Nice for Boeing and United!
Last edited by Opus99 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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vhqpa
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?


The 32S fleet was pre merger. The UA airbus order was actually one of the catalysts for Boeing to develop the 737NG series, despite already being a 737-200/-300/-500 operator, United went for the A319/A320 for the range which the 2nd generation 737s didn't have. Boeing went on the develop the NG series which matched the A32S for range, but too late for the UA order.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:27 am

Always felt that United current MAX order is inadquate to replace the current narrowbody. Hopefully we will see another 200 MAX fresh order on top of current ones.

Future Fleet/ To be Delivered:
B737 MAX 8 - 40 to be delivered
B737 MAX 9 - 30 delivered, 49 to be delivered
B737 MAX 10 - 100 to be delivered
A321XLR - 50 to be delivered
Total= 269

Current Fleet:
A319 - 94
A320 - 97
B737-700 - 40
B737-800 - 141
B737-900 - 12
B737-900ER - 136
B757-200 - 40
B757-300 - 21
Total= 481
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:27 am

I see UA taking advantage of low pricing to renew their fleet. They also have a bunch of older A320s, 319s, and 738s they can replace if they don’t need all the capacity.

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?


UA also has 50 A321XLRs on order and the A350 count was increased and delayed a few years ago. An airline this big and global can’t afford to be single supplier.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:49 am

Wow amazing! The MAX really needs the public confidence boost and this will help it.

I really hope this includes the MAX 9. That variant has been struggling from day 1.
 
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ADent
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:50 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?

United was definitely leaning Airbus pre-merger.

They did have some (25) 787s on order, but otherwise hadn’t ordered Boeing in awhile.

The A350s were to replace the 747s and be their large wide body.

Also they hadn’t ordered any GE engines after UA232, but never heard if that was chance or policy.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:17 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Wow amazing! The MAX really needs the public confidence boost and this will help it.

I really hope this includes the MAX 9. That variant has been struggling from day 1.

The MAX9 really is obsoleted by the MAX10, which is only slightly larger but I believe has better runway performance. I would expect most airlines will prefer it.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:02 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?

It was a blessing in disguise United postponed the A350 delivery to 2027 when they adjusted the order, the international market won't recover anytime soon until 2023 at earliest with current pandemic situation. This will allow UA to focus on rejuvenating their short haul fleet and also improving their customer offerings.

CO had 337 aircraft in fleet (all Boeing) and 92 on order (25 B787, 46 B737-700, 2 B738, 19 B739ER).
UA had 360 aircraft (mix of 152 A320 family and 208 Boeing aircraft) and 67 on order (42 A320 family and 25 A350) when the merger happened.
Therefore, we have a Boeing-heavy fleet today after the merger was completed.
 
rbavfan
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:22 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?


UA had the Airbus fleet, not CO.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am

ADent wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
I notice barring the A320 series, UA has an all-Boeing fleet.

1) CO had an all-Boeing fleet as well. Did UA have these Airbuses from before the merger, or were they ordered later?
2) UA also has 45 A350s on order, deferred to 2027. Will this ever see the light of day?

United was definitely leaning Airbus pre-merger.

They did have some (25) 787s on order, but otherwise hadn’t ordered Boeing in awhile.

The A350s were to replace the 747s and be their large wide body.

Also they hadn’t ordered any GE engines after UA232, but never heard if that was chance or policy.

They were learning Airbus pre merger because most of their mainline narrow body fleet was Airbus. They hadn’t ordered anything (mainline) in a while before the 25/25 A350/787 order (which were ordered at same time)-UA’s last mainline delivery from anyone was around early 2002. The A320s they still technically had on order dated back to the late 90s or very early 00s and was often seen as a dead order where it was questionable whether UA would ever take them (ultimately they were cancelled, I can’t remember if that was in conjunction with A350 order or later).
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:47 am

Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:14 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
I really hope this includes the MAX 9. That variant has been struggling from day 1.

As stated above, the '9 seems obsoleted... not sure what its real purpose will be, if indeed the -10 gets significantly better performance numbers, to go alongside with its inevitable greater CASM at similar operating costs.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:16 am

Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


It makes sense for large operators like United. Fully committing to one manufacturer in a duopoly has it's drawbacks longer term. The A319/A320/737-700 fleet is getting into the high cycles/hours so needs replacement. The same goes for the 757/767 fleet..

I think a good fleet of A321s and 737-8 seems reasonable, but also A220 could be in the mix. Boeing will be pushing for the 737-10. Pitty an A220-500 at high production volumes isn't there for the foreseeable future.

I wonder how hard Airbus will push (discount) here. They seem interested in continuing the current situation (market/revenue share) for as long as possible. Breaking away United from Boeing with a steep discount, might be contra productive longer term. A has a full backlog, Delta, AA, no need to overdo.
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:18 am

keesje wrote:
Pitty an A220-500 at high production volumes isn't there for the foreseeable future.

I'm starting to wonder if it'll ever be? Are we going to go through a full cycle before the A220 lines ramp up to the point of high-volume production? If so, seems like the model could ironically see a similar fate to the 717s it's replacing. :(
 
FluidFlow
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:41 am

Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


It seems to confirm the dominance of the A321 and the good economics of the -8. While Airbus can secure the highly profitable A321 sales, Boeing can place large volume of 737-8s. It also shows why Boeing thinks about a new large single aisle. The MAX-10 is just not competitive with operators that use Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies.

UA, AA and DL seem to tend towards 737 for the middle of the NB market, the smallest segment is a tie (DL chose the A220 as the smallest, UA and AA have 319 and -700s) and use the 321 as the largest model, also in combination with XLRs in the future.
 
VSMUT
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:45 am

Split order? It isn't too long since they ordered the A321XLR, are they really going to place another Airbus order so close to that?


LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
Pitty an A220-500 at high production volumes isn't there for the foreseeable future.

I'm starting to wonder if it'll ever be? Are we going to go through a full cycle before the A220 lines ramp up to the point of high-volume production? If so, seems like the model could ironically see a similar fate to the 717s it's replacing. :(


There are already more A220s built than there were 717s built with almost 500 in the backlog including several major carriers. It is definitely safer and more guaranteed than the 717. It is not far from exceeding the CRJ-700/900/1000 family and has surpassed the Q400, Avro RJ/BAe 146, and Fokker 28/70/100. I agree it looks less like the runaway success suggested before Corona struck, but it is also far from being on par with the 717. There is after all a fairly good chance it will get follow up orders from the existing majors that ordered it (Lufthansa Group, Air France, Delta, JetBlue, Breeze, Air Canada).
 
airboss787
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:57 am

SFOtoORD wrote:

An airline this big and global can’t afford to be single supplier.


But they are, as of this moment and seem to be doing just fine.
 
marcogr12
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:58 am

VSMUT wrote:
Split order? It isn't too long since they ordered the A321XLR, are they really going to place another Airbus order so close to that?


LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
Pitty an A220-500 at high production volumes isn't there for the foreseeable future.

I'm starting to wonder if it'll ever be? Are we going to go through a full cycle before the A220 lines ramp up to the point of high-volume production? If so, seems like the model could ironically see a similar fate to the 717s it's replacing. :(


There are already more A220s built than there were 717s built with almost 500 in the backlog including several major carriers. It is definitely safer and more guaranteed than the 717. It is not far from exceeding the CRJ-700/900/1000 family and has surpassed the Q400, Avro RJ/BAe 146, and Fokker 28/70/100. I agree it looks less like the runaway success suggested before Corona struck, but it is also far from being on par with the 717. There is after all a fairly good chance it will get follow up orders from the existing majors that ordered it (Lufthansa Group, Air France, Delta, JetBlue, Breeze, Air Canada).


The majority of A220s built are A223s and not A221s which is the direct equivalent to the 717..The A223s are in the A319/737-700 category
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:58 am

FluidFlow wrote:
It seems to confirm the dominance of the A321 and the good economics of the -8. While Airbus can secure the highly profitable A321 sales, Boeing can place large volume of 737-8s. It also shows why Boeing thinks about a new large single aisle. The MAX-10 is just not competitive with operators that use Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies.


Well, UA itself has a hundred MAX 10s on order, and Boeing a backlog of 500+ frames for twenty customers. That 737 customers order MAX and 32x customers order 321neos really shouldn't be a surprise. Some carriers have fleets large enough to operate both families, and some carriers with large fleets still stick with just one.

That the MAX 10 isn't range competitive with the 321XLR doesn't mean it isn't economically competitive. How many routes do WN, Ryanair, or AS operate with a distance longer than 3000nm? (That would be zero.)
 
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seahawk
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:00 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


It seems to confirm the dominance of the A321 and the good economics of the -8. While Airbus can secure the highly profitable A321 sales, Boeing can place large volume of 737-8s. It also shows why Boeing thinks about a new large single aisle. The MAX-10 is just not competitive with operators that use Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies.

UA, AA and DL seem to tend towards 737 for the middle of the NB market, the smallest segment is a tie (DL chose the A220 as the smallest, UA and AA have 319 and -700s) and use the 321 as the largest model, also in combination with XLRs in the future.


If this shows the dominance of the A321, does it not as well show the dominance of the 737-8 over the A320?
 
Noshow
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:03 am

During these times you would want to be their engine manufacturer.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:06 am

VSMUT wrote:
Split order? It isn't too long since they ordered the A321XLR, are they really going to place another Airbus order so close to that?

It was even less time ago that UA last placed a Max order, so why not? Hell UA has even placed 2 Max orders in back to back months this year.
 
danipawa
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:15 am

Glad to see this kind of things !
 
FluidFlow
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 am

seahawk wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


It seems to confirm the dominance of the A321 and the good economics of the -8. While Airbus can secure the highly profitable A321 sales, Boeing can place large volume of 737-8s. It also shows why Boeing thinks about a new large single aisle. The MAX-10 is just not competitive with operators that use Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies.

UA, AA and DL seem to tend towards 737 for the middle of the NB market, the smallest segment is a tie (DL chose the A220 as the smallest, UA and AA have 319 and -700s) and use the 321 as the largest model, also in combination with XLRs in the future.


If this shows the dominance of the A321, does it not as well show the dominance of the 737-8 over the A320?


It actually does, in recent months we see mainly -8 and A321 orders. Now it would be really interesting what the underlying reasons are. Could be pricing, could be performance, could be general strategic decisions from the OEMs.

Now from the perspective of A&B, if you have full order books you want to sell the airframes with the highest profit margin, but when you have lots of free slots you want to fill them with as many orders as possible.

I suggest, that for Airbus it is not worth to fight the -8 head on on price because Airbus prefers to sell the higher profit A321 over the A320. I have a feeling the shift for Airbus away from the A320 is slowly starting and I would not be surprised if we see a 75% to 25% backlog favouring the A321 towards the end of the decade. Hence Boeings desire to launch an MoM aircraft. The good thing for that is, that Boeing can sell a lot of -8s and might not even has to discount them as much because Airbus does not compete as hard in that segment. So it is somewhat a win win for both, Boeing can fill its backlog profitably and Airbus can make its backlog as profitable as possible.
 
behramjee
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:41 am

Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


What will be interesting here to see if the incremental order by UA for A321Neos will be for the normal Neo, Neo-LR or XLR version.

I also will not be surprised if many MAX7s are ordered to replace their 90+ A319 fleet down the road.
 
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keesje
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:57 am

FluidFlow wrote:
seahawk wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

It seems to confirm the dominance of the A321 and the good economics of the -8. While Airbus can secure the highly profitable A321 sales, Boeing can place large volume of 737-8s. It also shows why Boeing thinks about a new large single aisle. The MAX-10 is just not competitive with operators that use Airbus and Boeing narrow bodies.

UA, AA and DL seem to tend towards 737 for the middle of the NB market, the smallest segment is a tie (DL chose the A220 as the smallest, UA and AA have 319 and -700s) and use the 321 as the largest model, also in combination with XLRs in the future.


If this shows the dominance of the A321, does it not as well show the dominance of the 737-8 over the A320?


It actually does, in recent months we see mainly -8 and A321 orders. Now it would be really interesting what the underlying reasons are. Could be pricing, could be performance, could be general strategic decisions from the OEMs.

Now from the perspective of A&B, if you have full order books you want to sell the airframes with the highest profit margin, but when you have lots of free slots you want to fill them with as many orders as possible.

I suggest, that for Airbus it is not worth to fight the -8 head on on price because Airbus prefers to sell the higher profit A321 over the A320. I have a feeling the shift for Airbus away from the A320 is slowly starting and I would not be surprised if we see a 75% to 25% backlog favouring the A321 towards the end of the decade. Hence Boeings desire to launch an MoM aircraft. The good thing for that is, that Boeing can sell a lot of -8s and might not even has to discount them as much because Airbus does not compete as hard in that segment. So it is somewhat a win win for both, Boeing can fill its backlog profitably and Airbus can make its backlog as profitable as possible.


Airbus sold over 3800 A320NEOs (probably more than 737-8s) so it seems airlines don't have a issues with it. That said the 737-8 is two rows longer and offers commonality with 737NG's.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:00 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


If confirmed it would be around 150 Boeing and 50 Airbus A321NEOs so you are correct it would not be a even split.

However 50 A321NEOs would be enough as it would complement UA's existing order for 50 A321XLRs giving us 100 A321s
Last edited by jayunited on Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:00 pm

keesje wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
seahawk wrote:

If this shows the dominance of the A321, does it not as well show the dominance of the 737-8 over the A320?


It actually does, in recent months we see mainly -8 and A321 orders. Now it would be really interesting what the underlying reasons are. Could be pricing, could be performance, could be general strategic decisions from the OEMs.

Now from the perspective of A&B, if you have full order books you want to sell the airframes with the highest profit margin, but when you have lots of free slots you want to fill them with as many orders as possible.

I suggest, that for Airbus it is not worth to fight the -8 head on on price because Airbus prefers to sell the higher profit A321 over the A320. I have a feeling the shift for Airbus away from the A320 is slowly starting and I would not be surprised if we see a 75% to 25% backlog favouring the A321 towards the end of the decade. Hence Boeings desire to launch an MoM aircraft. The good thing for that is, that Boeing can sell a lot of -8s and might not even has to discount them as much because Airbus does not compete as hard in that segment. So it is somewhat a win win for both, Boeing can fill its backlog profitably and Airbus can make its backlog as profitable as possible.


Airbus sold over 3800 A320NEOs (probably more than 737-8s) so it seems airlines don't have a issues with it. That said the 737-8 is two rows longer and offers commonality with 737NG's.

Let’s not forget before MAX and covid. 737 max had 5000 orders. 85% of which were max 8. So the max 8 had actually outsold the 320neo

Not by much. But it had
 
ewt340
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:13 pm

Opus99 wrote:
keesje wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

It actually does, in recent months we see mainly -8 and A321 orders. Now it would be really interesting what the underlying reasons are. Could be pricing, could be performance, could be general strategic decisions from the OEMs.

Now from the perspective of A&B, if you have full order books you want to sell the airframes with the highest profit margin, but when you have lots of free slots you want to fill them with as many orders as possible.

I suggest, that for Airbus it is not worth to fight the -8 head on on price because Airbus prefers to sell the higher profit A321 over the A320. I have a feeling the shift for Airbus away from the A320 is slowly starting and I would not be surprised if we see a 75% to 25% backlog favouring the A321 towards the end of the decade. Hence Boeings desire to launch an MoM aircraft. The good thing for that is, that Boeing can sell a lot of -8s and might not even has to discount them as much because Airbus does not compete as hard in that segment. So it is somewhat a win win for both, Boeing can fill its backlog profitably and Airbus can make its backlog as profitable as possible.


Airbus sold over 3800 A320NEOs (probably more than 737-8s) so it seems airlines don't have a issues with it. That said the 737-8 is two rows longer and offers commonality with 737NG's.

Let’s not forget before MAX and covid. 737 max had 5000 orders. 85% of which were max 8. So the max 8 had actually outsold the 320neo

Not by much. But it had


I do believe MAX8 currently have around 2135 orders. They have 1470 unknown order for MAX, which mean that they could go to any model.

A320neo sold 3855 units. So even with that unknown MAX order combined, A320neo already outsold MAX8.
 
UA748i
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Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:20 pm

The order would be enough to replace a significant portion of the fleet.

Are the A320s getting close to cycling out?
 
Opus99
Posts: 2365
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:21 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Airbus sold over 3800 A320NEOs (probably more than 737-8s) so it seems airlines don't have a issues with it. That said the 737-8 is two rows longer and offers commonality with 737NG's.

Let’s not forget before MAX and covid. 737 max had 5000 orders. 85% of which were max 8. So the max 8 had actually outsold the 320neo

Not by much. But it had


I do believe MAX8 currently have around 2135 orders. They have 1470 unknown order for MAX, which mean that they could go to any model.

A320neo sold 3855 units. So even with that unknown MAX order combined, A320neo already outsold MAX8.

Emphasis on HAD. Secondly, vast majority of the unknown sit with the max 8.

What you’re saying now has no bearing to the time period I am addressing
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1088
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:51 pm

keesje wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
seahawk wrote:

If this shows the dominance of the A321, does it not as well show the dominance of the 737-8 over the A320?


It actually does, in recent months we see mainly -8 and A321 orders. Now it would be really interesting what the underlying reasons are. Could be pricing, could be performance, could be general strategic decisions from the OEMs.

Now from the perspective of A&B, if you have full order books you want to sell the airframes with the highest profit margin, but when you have lots of free slots you want to fill them with as many orders as possible.

I suggest, that for Airbus it is not worth to fight the -8 head on on price because Airbus prefers to sell the higher profit A321 over the A320. I have a feeling the shift for Airbus away from the A320 is slowly starting and I would not be surprised if we see a 75% to 25% backlog favouring the A321 towards the end of the decade. Hence Boeings desire to launch an MoM aircraft. The good thing for that is, that Boeing can sell a lot of -8s and might not even has to discount them as much because Airbus does not compete as hard in that segment. So it is somewhat a win win for both, Boeing can fill its backlog profitably and Airbus can make its backlog as profitable as possible.


Airbus sold over 3800 A320NEOs (probably more than 737-8s) so it seems airlines don't have a issues with it. That said the 737-8 is two rows longer and offers commonality with 737NG's.


That is true but the latest orders seem to indicate, that Airbus seems to push A321 orders, as this model gained way more orders recently compared to the A320 (that was even before Covid). Many A320 orders stem from the first few years the NEO was on offer. This indicates that Airbus tries to saturate the order book with A321neos when possible instead of securing every order possible.
 
johns624
Posts: 3992
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:06 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Always felt that United current MAX order is inadquate to replace the current narrowbody. Hopefully we will see another 200 MAX fresh order on top of current ones.

Future Fleet/ To be Delivered:
B737 MAX 8 - 40 to be delivered
B737 MAX 9 - 30 delivered, 49 to be delivered
B737 MAX 10 - 100 to be delivered
A321XLR - 50 to be delivered
Total= 269

Current Fleet:
A319 - 94
A320 - 97
B737-700 - 40
B737-800 - 141
B737-900 - 12
B737-900ER - 136
B757-200 - 40
B757-300 - 21
Total= 481

Why do all of those have to be replaced? Some aren't that old.
 
Runway765
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm

jayunited wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
REUTERS mentioned split the order between A and B.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


If confirmed it would be around 150 Boeing and 50 Airbus A321NEOs so you are correct it would not be a even split.

However 50 A321NEOs would be enough as it would complement UA's existing order for 50 A321XLRs giving us 100 A321s


Where would the A321neos be used? Would those take the place of the MAX 10's on the transcontinental JFK-LAX/SFO routes?
 
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keesje
Posts: 14534
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:18 pm

I can see UA and Airbus reach a deal on additional XLR's instead of A321NEOs. To secure commonality after the A319/A320s are phased out. And commonality with possible A322's (conversion rights), Airbus no doubt flashed drawings & specifications while presenting their proposals. UA's 767s are getting pretty old too.
 
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Boeing757100
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:27 pm

How high in cycles are the 757, 767, A320 and others at UA that the MAX order might replace/supplement?
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:37 pm

Wondering if there is something for the 737-700/ 319 replacement as part of these orders. Or are Max 8/321 the sole focus?

Not immediately needed but by the end of the decade they will start to be. The oldest 319 is coming up on 24 years. (26 June 1997) The oldest 737-700 was delivered in March 1998.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14534
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:38 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
How high in cycles are the 757, 767, A320 and others at UA that the MAX order might replace/supplement?


These are average ages of the aircraft. Over the years the oldest ones have been retired. No even the youngest are getting worn out & averages / unit costs go up. . https://www.planespotters.net/airline/United-Airlines
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1276
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:39 pm

airboss787 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

An airline this big and global can’t afford to be single supplier.


But they are, as of this moment and seem to be doing just fine.


They have Airbuses on order and in the fleet. They are not single supplier.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:40 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
How high in cycles are the 757, 767, A320 and others at UA that the MAX order might replace/supplement?


The remaining 757, sans the -300, already have their future replacement in the 321 XLR. Previous 757’s were replaced by the 737-900er.

The 767 is waiting on the NMA or whatever Airbus come up with in that segment (the 787-8 or 330 NEO seems not to be a consideration at this time)

Max8 seems to be a replacement for 320’s and 737-800’s.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14501
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm

Runway765 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

Yes a heavily one sided split. With over 100 Boeing jets and dozens of Airbus jets.

With the Boeing order said to be around 150 frames


If confirmed it would be around 150 Boeing and 50 Airbus A321NEOs so you are correct it would not be a even split.

However 50 A321NEOs would be enough as it would complement UA's existing order for 50 A321XLRs giving us 100 A321s


Where would the A321neos be used? Would those take the place of the MAX 10's on the transcontinental JFK-LAX/SFO routes?


Before the pandemic United had 41 RR Powered 752s in International configuration, 15 Pratt powered 752s in a premium trans-con configuration and 21 757-300s in domestic trunk route service and West Coast -Hawaii.

This order might indicate that they will not use the 737-10 Max in premium trans con service. They may use some of these new A321s to replace the Pratt powered 752s in premium domestic services (LAX/SFO-EWR, JFK, BOS, DCA) as well as a higher capacity configuration to replace 757s on West Coast/ Denver - Hawaii routes.

The 737-10 Max might be used similarly to how NK and F9 use their A321s (Florida, Cancun, Caribbean, Las Vegas) etc..
 
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Boeing757100
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:00 pm

keesje wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
How high in cycles are the 757, 767, A320 and others at UA that the MAX order might replace/supplement?


These are average ages of the aircraft. Over the years the oldest ones have been retired. No even the youngest are getting worn out & averages / unit costs go up. . https://www.planespotters.net/airline/United-Airlines



I was referring to cycles/hours rather than age. Age seems to be a rather disputed topic when it comes to aircraft life and is not entirely correct. A plane could be barely utilized and have very little pressurization cycles, yet it could have been built 30 years ago! And a plane that was built not even a decade ago could possibly be so over-utilized that it cycles out at a younger age. I was asking the utilization rate for these aircraft, which is supposed to determine the cycles, which in turn tells you when to send them to the desert.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3904
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:01 pm

The MAX 8 would be to replace their old -700s and also their aging A319/A320 fleet. As for the XLR, will it be on par with the 757 on hot and high performance to replace the former Continental frames? (I expect more MAX 10s as well to maximize a 4 flight attendant cabin, and for premium transcon between NYC and LAX/SFO.)
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: United Airlines in advanced talks on purchasing 100-150 737MAX

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:04 pm

keesje wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
How high in cycles are the 757, 767, A320 and others at UA that the MAX order might replace/supplement?


These are average ages of the aircraft. Over the years the oldest ones have been retired. No even the youngest are getting worn out & averages / unit costs go up. . https://www.planespotters.net/airline/United-Airlines

Correct, UA is about to add more used airframes: 11 A319 from Easyjet and 7 B737-700 from Southwest (both having high utilisation for their fleet) on average age for each frame is 15 years old.Therefore will need quick replacment in next 5 years.
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