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LAXintl
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American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:16 am

American Airlines announced it will invest in Vertical Aerospace, UK based company developing electric vertical takeoff and landing (eVTOL) aircraft.

As part of its investment in Vertical, American has agreed to pre-order, subject to certain future milestones and other terms, up to 250 aircraft, representing a potential pre-order commitment of $1 billion, and an option to order an additional 100 aircraft. The airline also expects to make a $25 million investment in Vertical through a private investment in public equity transaction.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/ne ... r-mobility

=

Lets see how many of these eVTOLs will really come to fruition and their business cases :sarcastic:
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UALFAson
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:31 am

These things fly 4 people and a pilot up to 100 miles?! What a joke! Must be nice that AA has $25MM just laying around they can set fire to. They should be investing this money in hiring more employees and adding back all the services and amenities they have cut. As a Platinum-level flyer, I am furious.
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a320fan
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:22 am

Seems AA management saw the amount of press UA was getting last week on that silly Boom announcement and decided they wanted in. Another company with less than 200 employees with zero chance of certifying anything for commercial airline service. However at least this one has actually flown some prototypes, all of which look like those drones you can buy at an electronics store enlarged and with a little PAX cabin. Nothing that would be of any use to an airline such as AA unless they’re planning to offer doorstep pick up and seamless airport transfer onto a more traditional aircraft.

Also - ‘ retiring more than 150 older and less fuel-efficient aircraft in 2020.’
not AA implying they retired lots of aircraft out of environmental goodwill, and not because a global pandemic meant there was
No PAX to fly on them.
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KFTG
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:29 am

Clearly the need for gov't money in the form of COVID bailouts was overstated.
 
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Aesma
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 am

At least the word investment isn't usurped, they're really investing some money. The large order is just PR.

UALFAson : eVTOLs are for local transportation, 100 miles is enough.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:00 am

Aesma wrote:
At least the word investment isn't usurped, they're really investing some money. The large order is just PR.

UALFAson : eVTOLs are for local transportation, 100 miles is enough.

This might be possible in China, or elsewhere in the world, but not the US. The FAA has already hinted that this kind of on demand short haul flying is regulatorily next to impossible.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:11 am

a320fan wrote:
Seems AA management saw the amount of press UA was getting last week on that silly Boom announcement and decided they wanted in. Another company with less than 200 employees with zero chance of certifying anything for commercial airline service. However at least this one has actually flown some prototypes, all of which look like those drones you can buy at an electronics store enlarged and with a little PAX cabin. Nothing that would be of any use to an airline such as AA unless they’re planning to offer doorstep pick up and seamless airport transfer onto a more traditional aircraft.

Also - ‘ retiring more than 150 older and less fuel-efficient aircraft in 2020.’
not AA implying they retired lots of aircraft out of environmental goodwill, and not because a global pandemic meant there was
No PAX to fly on them.


Agreed. 25 million is also comparatively nothing either, and there is not yet a regulatory frame work for these VTOL aircraft to work within. The timescales for introduction are long. Production a complete question mark. I applaud all the work being done to develop them, but AA's boastful press release feels more like riding the coattails of "green" and "new" for PR than a serious bid. In a way it feels embarrassing.

Despite that I'd be glad to be proven wrong. Perhaps I'm just too pessimistic.
 
chonetsao
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:34 am

I will keep an open mind.

These aircraft works like helicopter, virtical take off and landing. It does need less room compare to conventional helicopter and it is environmental friendly.

There are potentials for these. You have to imagine this as a air taxi service run by AA in populated cities like LAX and JFK. With the road traffic getting worse and public transport gets too crowded. There is always opportunity for a well off family or company executives need to go to airport to catch their Premier class flights. What is the best way to beat traffic and save time?

There are potential for this air taxi service. It can survive with the a good management. What is more, should carbon offset scheme becomes official in US (I hope not), AA will really gain from this.

I see both side of argument but I will keep an open mind for now.
 
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Aesma
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:56 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aesma wrote:
At least the word investment isn't usurped, they're really investing some money. The large order is just PR.

UALFAson : eVTOLs are for local transportation, 100 miles is enough.

This might be possible in China, or elsewhere in the world, but not the US. The FAA has already hinted that this kind of on demand short haul flying is regulatorily next to impossible.


Yeah like São Paulo in Brazil with all the helos overflying the city, here in France that's impossible.

But regulators might have to adapt, politicians will decide after all.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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keesje
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:29 pm

Won't these machine consume 10x as much energy as a car or train?

Image
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/vertica ... tment.html

100% sustainable energy no doubt, from TBD sources..

The cost for such a advanced aircraft would be comparable to a small business jet I guess. Also if you don't want it to be.
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EWRandMDW
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:34 pm

Forgive my technical ignorance but isn't VTOL a fancy acronym for HELICOPTER? I understand there are plenty of those available. How would they be used, airport to a corporate helipad (VTOLpad?) or to a wealthy flier's estate of to a center city location? They'd then be plugged into an outlet to charge up before returning to the main airport. Wouldn't all these eVTOLS just add to the air traffic nightmare that already exists in many locations?
 
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Aesma
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:49 pm

No, but helicopters are VTOL aircraft. The vehicles we're talking about have several rotors, sometimes wings, sometimes their rotors can become props, none are traditional helicopters. And with electric propulsion, of course.

It begs the question, though, why not just convert a traditional helicopter (say a basic Robinson R44) to electric propulsion ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Miami
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:18 pm

What a joke AA has become. These executives need to go.
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496TFS
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:36 pm

It’s all about AA’s attempt to maintain a high ESG score. The drive to be “carbon neutral,” the social engineering programs all employees must attend and the jihad HR is currently running to fire/force retire employees who say the wrong things or hurt someone’s feelings are more examples. Safety and customer service are of lesser importance to ESG scores.
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:44 pm

For those of you posting that AA should fix their actual currently operating airline first, none of you posted links backing up your claim that they actually sucked. But then again, it's kind of a given, isn't it?
 
rampbro
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm

496TFS wrote:
It’s all about AA’s attempt to maintain a high ESG score. The drive to be “carbon neutral,” the social engineering programs all employees must attend and the jihad HR is currently running to fire/force retire employees who say the wrong things or hurt someone’s feelings are more examples. Safety and customer service are of lesser importance to ESG scores.


It could definitely be this, or it could be that the dramatic social, political and economic changes occurring on the global scale, hastened by rapid advances in technology, have caused some C-Suite types to actually listen to their futurists. If you've just ripped up your last business plan because an AoG (I'll let y'all interpret that) pilloried every single one of your medium/long term assumptions, a guy who comes along and says "focus on the transition to ePower and maximizing value w/ HNW individuals" allows one to start formulating a coherent story about the future.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm

SteelChair wrote:
For those of you posting that AA should fix their actual currently operating airline first, none of you posted links backing up your claim that they actually sucked. But then again, it's kind of a given, isn't it?


https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... tion-study

According to this year's airline satisfaction survey, AA scored below industry average, even below United in terms of customer satisfaction.

Its well known after the last few years that AA has cheapened its product significantly despite being a "legacy" airline. The Oasis 737s is a great example of this.

I used to be an AA FF, even holding Platinum for a while, but the airline has faltered significantly in the last few years. I have since moved over to DL, and they have MANY flaws, but I am much happier with them than I have been with AA.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:47 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I will keep an open mind.

These aircraft works like helicopter, virtical take off and landing. It does need less room compare to conventional helicopter and it is environmental friendly.

There are potentials for these. You have to imagine this as a air taxi service run by AA in populated cities like LAX and JFK. With the road traffic getting worse and public transport gets too crowded. There is always opportunity for a well off family or company executives need to go to airport to catch their Premier class flights. What is the best way to beat traffic and save time?

There are potential for this air taxi service. It can survive with the a good management. What is more, should carbon offset scheme becomes official in US (I hope not), AA will really gain from this.

I see both side of argument but I will keep an open mind for now.

lol....
Yes, I can imagine it. I also realize the FAA will never allow it. Streams of these flying back and forth across NYC? Not going to happen in my lifetime, or yours.
 
IFlyOff
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:07 pm

Separate from its investment in Boom, last February United Airlines announced an investment in electric aircraft. United Airlines is a few months ahead of AA in this public announcement.

https://www.aerotime.aero/27229-united- ... ric-planes
 
Ziyulu
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:20 pm

What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?
 
SteelChair
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:27 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


They're competing to see who can be the most woke.

IIRC, UAL went to all electric ramp equipment 25+ years ago at ORD. How did that work out?
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:34 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


An announcement of suborbital long haul. (One can dream)
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:55 pm

a320fan wrote:
Seems AA management saw the amount of press UA was getting last week on that silly Boom announcement and decided they wanted in. .


So, next it'll be DL with dirigibles? :-)
 
kalvado
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:02 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?

Attracting forward looking investors with some bailout cash to burn.
This $25M spending may pay off just from short term PR effects. By the time aircraft is (not) certified on schedule, 2024 or so, one of companies would possibly be no more, or something else would come up.
 
IFlyOff
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:15 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


They're competing to see who can be the most woke.

IIRC, UAL went to all electric ramp equipment 25+ years ago at ORD. How did that work out?


I know the State of California and likely other states are requiring all fleet and ramp vehicles to be electric due to air quality regulations. Most new vehicles including pushbacks, tractors and belt loaders seem to be electric out here and seem to be working just fine.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:30 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I will keep an open mind.

These aircraft works like helicopter, virtical take off and landing. It does need less room compare to conventional helicopter and it is environmental friendly.

There are potentials for these. You have to imagine this as a air taxi service run by AA in populated cities like LAX and JFK. With the road traffic getting worse and public transport gets too crowded. There is always opportunity for a well off family or company executives need to go to airport to catch their Premier class flights. What is the best way to beat traffic and save time?

There are potential for this air taxi service. It can survive with the a good management. What is more, should carbon offset scheme becomes official in US (I hope not), AA will really gain from this.

I see both side of argument but I will keep an open mind for now.

Lol air taxi.
Goodness it's awful and makes no sense. I guess it's good for the rich. Most likely they will take an air taxi to the airport just to get onto a private jet if they are rich.

Also I'm not sure how it's carbon neutral unless it has carbon capture technology.
 
NLINK
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:49 pm

American should be required to pay back the CARES loan immediately for investing in a start up. Waste of taxpayers dollars.
 
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Polot
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:56 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


They're competing to see who can be the most woke.

IIRC, UAL went to all electric ramp equipment 25+ years ago at ORD. How did that work out?

Eh the state of electric vehicles now is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was 25+ years ago. While all these electric VTOLs are just PR nonsense ramp equipment is easy low hanging fruit for electrification now.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 pm

So, hypothetically, if this company was successful, World AMR have to divest it ala Boeing and United?
 
al320
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:24 pm

Would it not make more sense to invest in tangible industries like electric vehicles or public transportation.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:35 pm

It’s just like that Edison guy. I don’t understand why he can’t just use whale oil to light up his home like everyone else. Sheesh.
 
Dominion301
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:57 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
It’s just like that Edison guy. I don’t understand why he can’t just use whale oil to light up his home like everyone else. Sheesh.


Yup and the Wright brothers were also crazy and why couldn’t Bell walk to deliver the message or wait for a reply in the mail like normal people instead of inventing that silly device you talk into? There are few visionaries and many naysayers. Some things in history don’t change as evidenced by many comments on this thread and many others on a.net.

Conversion of airlines’ ground fleets to electric within 7-10 years and only working with 3rd party vendors that do the same are easy low hanging fruit for airlines to meaningfully reduce emissions. Ditto investing in solar and the wheel tug tech for ground taxi. Those airline hangars have massive roof areas to load up with solar. That’s another easy target. Hopefully there’s people within the airlines that also see that.
 
jomur
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:19 am

TVNWZ wrote:
It’s just like that Edison guy. I don’t understand why he can’t just use whale oil to light up his home like everyone else. Sheesh.


You do know he didn't event the electric light bulb? He was a bit like Ford, who didn't event the motor car either just that they made it popular.


Any way why not invest in LAPCAT A2 instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_ ... _LAPCAT_A2
 
jayunited
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:25 am

SteelChair wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


They're competing to see who can be the most woke.

IIRC, UAL went to all electric ramp equipment 25+ years ago at ORD. How did that work out?


First of all this thread has nothing to do with United and our ramp equipment. Secondly 25+ years ago I was working on the ramp at ORD for United and we did not have all electric fleet, we had a mixture of electric equipment and gas equipment. The problem for United was they purchased new electric equipment but never invested a single dime in upgrading the chargers to recharge the batteries. United has had electric equipment since the early days of Terminal 1 opening up because bag room is completely underground no gas equipment allowed in the bag room. The existing network of chargers we had worked perfectly with the older model equipment but the genius who order the new equipment never once thought old charges and new equipment don't mix. This resulted in the batteries in the new equipment being burned out in 6-12 months whereas the batteries on the old equipment would last around 8 years.

This has absolutely nothing to do with seeing who can be the most woke. (You trying starting a piece of diesel equipment during a normal Chicago winter or God forbid during a polar vortex you will quickly realize there is no difference between a diesel or electric piece of equipment because neither piece particular wants to start up if they haven't been kept in a warm place.) Electric equipment at the airport does work is a great piece of equipment and it for sure cuts down on diesel cost, engine oil cost and overall maintenance cost, but when an airline invests in the next generation electric equipment they must also invest in the next generation chargers as well. If you only knew how much money airlines spend on a yearly basis on diesel fuel, engine oil, and general maintenance for gas power equipment vs what they spend on electric you would be shocked, this has nothing to do with the being woke at all.
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:21 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What type of joke is this? First, you have United announcing plans to purchase supersonic aircraft, then you have American announcing electric aircraft. What is Delta up to next?


I believe Delta are looking at announcing an investment in a new aerial vehicle transport system being developed in France called the 'Montgolfier Spherical Thermal Transport System'.

A spokesperson said "What with all the 'hot air' being peddled by our competitors, we felt the time was right to get in on the act'. 8-)
 
EIBPI
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:22 pm

PR stunts are becoming a growingly important tool in airline communication strategies.
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:46 pm

EIBPI wrote:
PR stunts are becoming a growingly important tool in airline communication strategies.

I know. Next up, the announcement that these aircraft will be taking off from circular runways.
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Aesma
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:02 pm

Vertical Aerospace are one of the 30 entrants selected for the urban air mobility trials, which have EASA involvement, we'll see what they bring.

https://www.businessairportinternationa ... -june.html

Also, it turns out there is an electric R44 : https://electricwhip.com/r44-electric-h ... ld-record/
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Aliqiout
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:42 pm

The lot of you sound like those that though Amazon was ridiculous at the beginning. There is a ton of momentum building behind these ideas for small electric planes. The FAA will move slow, but they will adapt. They will not stand in the way of innovation. They have already been issuing air worthiness certificates for electric planes, and we already have aerial drones delivering packages.

I don't know if this particular venture is a winner, but it seems likely that someone will be. Who would have thunk that Henery Ford would figure out a way to put automobile ownership into reach of the masses.
 
KFTG
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:46 pm

Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
 
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Aesma
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:17 pm

Are short range, 4 passengers, electric eVTOL technically feasible ? Definitely yes.

Issues are :

- at what price point ? If helicopters aren't that common, it's mainly because of cost (the other issue being the noise).
- what noise ? All eVTOLs promise to be quieter than helicopters
- what safety ? Safety of the aircraft itself, and safety of having tons of them in the air together
- environmental impact ? Even if electric, if you need a gigantic battery and "burn" as much electricity as 100 cars, it doesn't look good
- social acceptance : if it's only for rich people, politicians will have no incentive to allow it

With that said, one believer is Anne Hidalgo, Paris' mayor, hoping for eVTOL flights from the city to various Olympic sites around the region for the 2024 Olympics. Hence the urban air mobility trials I mentioned in my previous post.

Currently helicopters (or GA planes for that matter) can't overfly Paris.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
fraspotter
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:16 pm

So many naysayers on here. This is essentially a $25 million R&D investment by American. If people honestly think companies don't invest in R&D then I have a bridge to sell you.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:26 pm

fraspotter wrote:
So many naysayers on here. This is essentially a $25 million R&D investment by American. If people honestly think companies don't invest in R&D then I have a bridge to sell you.

Why build bridges when you have a air taxi :lol:
Why drive to work or anywhere? Just order a air taxi
 
PHLspecial
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:29 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
The lot of you sound like those that though Amazon was ridiculous at the beginning. There is a ton of momentum building behind these ideas for small electric planes. The FAA will move slow, but they will adapt. They will not stand in the way of innovation. They have already been issuing air worthiness certificates for electric planes, and we already have aerial drones delivering packages.

I don't know if this particular venture is a winner, but it seems likely that someone will be. Who would have thunk that Henery Ford would figure out a way to put automobile ownership into reach of the masses.

Imagine a world where the eVtol is cheap enough where regular people can afford them. You can't trust people driving how can you trust them flying
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:12 pm

While some see the concept as outlandish, you have cities like Los Angeles who are pursuing urban air mobility with funding and the formation of collaborative public-private partnerships ( https://www.urbanmovementlabs.com/programs-projects/ ) to help vet out electric air taxis and delivery methods.
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Aliqiout
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:00 am

PHLspecial wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
The lot of you sound like those that though Amazon was ridiculous at the beginning. There is a ton of momentum building behind these ideas for small electric planes. The FAA will move slow, but they will adapt. They will not stand in the way of innovation. They have already been issuing air worthiness certificates for electric planes, and we already have aerial drones delivering packages.

I don't know if this particular venture is a winner, but it seems likely that someone will be. Who would have thunk that Henery Ford would figure out a way to put automobile ownership into reach of the masses.

Imagine a world where the eVtol is cheap enough where regular people can afford them. You can't trust people driving how can you trust them flying

Most of the concepts I have seen require very little effort on the part of the "pilot". Automous aircraft are much simpler than autonomous cars.
 
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:59 pm

I don't know why you all are getting so worked up about this fake news "AAnnouncement." It's all PR fluff. Same with UA's hyped-up BOOM SSTs.

Neither of these will ever see commercial operations.
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MIflyer12
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Re: American Airlines invests in up to 350 eVTOLs

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:23 pm

Aesma wrote:
At least the word investment isn't usurped, they're really investing some money. The large order is just PR.

UALFAson : eVTOLs are for local transportation, 100 miles is enough.


It isn't an investment until money changes hands. What they have is an announced intent to invest $25 million. An intent to buy planes 'subject to conditions' unspecified is valueless.

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