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RyanairGuru
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:43 am

Any aircraft new to the FAA register will be entirely overhauled to confirm the veracity and history of every single part before it is registered. By the time it is painted in the Delta colorscheme there won’t be any cause for concern about previous maintenance practices in Indonesia or anywhere else.
 
ben7x
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:08 am

Couldn‘t they just take the Hainan ntus sitting in France? Actually they are second-hand too.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:10 am

I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:32 am

Polot wrote:
I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.

Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:52 am

tullamarine wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.

Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.


And IMO, DL is probably one of the best when it comes to maintenance of older frames. There are many times I would rather fly a refurbished DL A320 than a newer aircraft.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:03 am

GlobalAirways wrote:
Sounds like Delta...

Not really, considering how ridiculously this site exaggerates their penchant for used aircraft.

For example: DL hasn't acquired a used widebody (for service) in more than a quarter century.....but listening here, you'd think it was something they do any given year.
 
cschleic
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
What? Most of the recent incidents have been 737s.


Many Indonesian incidents involve 737 overruns in bad weather (but it's not like we don't see 737 overruns outside Indonesia). Few Indonesian incidents involve newer aircraft that have been badly maintained. Poor airmanship in bad conditions is not a reflection on the plane itself.

The point about planes being leased rather than owned by Lion, is that the lessor has a very significant interest in ensuring their planes are properly maintained and documented by the operator.


Exactly. Plus, Delta has well known maintenance capabilities and would be able to make sure they're acceptable before taking them on and/or using them in service.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:00 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
GlobalAirways wrote:
Sounds like Delta...

Not really, considering how ridiculously this site exaggerates their penchant for used aircraft.

For example: DL hasn't acquired a used widebody (for service) in more than a quarter century.....but listening here, you'd think it was something they do any given year.


Yeah it’s like every month someone says Delta is going to buy a used widebody, and nothing ever happens. The last time may have been that 767 spare from GOL when they tied up the relationship, but that never went into service.


LATAMs early build A359s, I felt DL should have taken originally since they can make it work but that withdrawal payment was likely much less than the cost to reconfigure them. They could use more A350s right now. Totally plausible.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:52 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
It just paid 62million for not to purchase 4 a350 last year


Devil you know v Devil you don't. DL needed to get frames off the books last year and the price was right to do so. DL has a need for frames now and in the future, and the price is right.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:37 pm

If they're coming from Lion Air, they'll have the extra exit. I'm looking forward to DL making a row or two near the back of the airplane a premium seat on top of all the others...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:51 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
It just paid 62million for not to purchase 4 a350 last year


Devil you know v Devil you don't. DL needed to get frames off the books last year and the price was right to do so. DL has a need for frames now and in the future, and the price is right.

So I estimate DL saved $40 to $80 million net on the 4 frames. The original deal was for when airlines were clamoring for widebodies, in particular the A359.

What other airline is actively buying widebodies today?

Lightsaber
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:54 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
If they're coming from Lion Air, they'll have the extra exit. I'm looking forward to DL making a row or two near the back of the airplane a premium seat on top of all the others...

Delta would just deactivate them. All 739ERs come with that exit standard, carriers that don’t need the extra capacity (eg UA, DL, AS, etc) deactivate them so you can’t tell, other than from window spacing, from the interior (it’s row 29/30 on DL). Look at a DL 739 though from the outside and the deactivated exit can be clearly seen.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:59 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.

Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.


And IMO, DL is probably one of the best when it comes to maintenance of older frames. There are many times I would rather fly a refurbished DL A320 than a newer aircraft.


I would offer that paint and interior condition tell one little of the material condition of an airplane
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:20 pm

Polot wrote:
jwjsamster wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

LATAM just got rid of all of theirs, so that'd make sense.


Why did they get rid of there's and for what aircraft? Those things are pretty much brand spanking new no?

LATAM is in bankruptcy. They decided to drop the A350 fleet and focus on the larger 787 fleet for now (although they have also returned some 787s to lessors).

Some of LATAM’s are new, but they also had a handful of early builds.

Delta canceled buying the used A350s from LATAM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... iling/amp/
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
What? Most of the recent incidents have been 737s.


Many Indonesian incidents involve 737 overruns in bad weather (but it's not like we don't see 737 overruns outside Indonesia). Few Indonesian incidents involve newer aircraft that have been badly maintained. Poor airmanship in bad conditions is not a reflection on the plane itself.

The point about planes being leased rather than owned by Lion, is that the lessor has a very significant interest in ensuring their planes are properly maintained and documented by the operator.

If these aircraft were operated by Lion Air, or even if operated by another airline, all maintenance records need to be fully documented from the date they were delivered from the Boeing factory. If they cannot be documented or there are other questions about the serviceability of the aircraft they would need to be opened completely under a D-Check or Heavy Check to determine serviceability and repair of the aircraft. This would also include removal and testing of all rotable parts, which required a full history back to birth, and other reparable parts which don't normally have a history kept. This would be a requirement of the FAA before the aircraft could be registered and operated in the the United States. This could be done by Delta or a qualified and licensed maintenance provider. The lease holder would be obligated to absorb this cost and/or Delta would be compensated for the cost in a lower lease rate or or purchase price if Delta had any monies invested in any Checks. If the aircraft are not fully documented back to the aircraft being delivered by Boeing they would be flown to the desert by the lessor and at best used as parts aircraft with any item removed from the aircraft being tested, repaired and certified as safe to use. :old:
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:26 pm

777Mech wrote:
SXDFC wrote:
Any idea where the 737s would come from?



It's going to be Lion Air's 739 fleet and LATAM's 350s.

Lion Air just restructured some of their lease deals, so it's safe to say their lessors gave DL a smoking deal on their 739s.

LATAM is really the only operator that has withdraw their 350 fleets, so maybe DL can recoup some of that money from the deal to NOT take them. Pretty shortsighted of them.

LATAM returned those planes to the leasing companies, they don’t lease them nor own them.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:42 pm

According to Delta’s last 10k they have 29 A330-900neos and 20 A350-900s on order.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:45 pm

SteelChair wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.


And IMO, DL is probably one of the best when it comes to maintenance of older frames. There are many times I would rather fly a refurbished DL A320 than a newer aircraft.


I would offer that paint and interior condition tell one little of the material condition of an airplane


I'm not talking about a little paint here and there - DL has a culture, philosophy, or whatever you call it, of using frames for as long as possible and continually updating them. DL just recently retired the MD's after how many years of use? Look at it's 757s and A320s. Many of them are in the 20+ range, yet DL upgraded them to have PTVs and wi-fi. Same with the 767s.

I compare this to AA. When they had their 767s, the couldn't be bothered to update the interiors.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:48 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
scbriml wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
What? Most of the recent incidents have been 737s.


Many Indonesian incidents involve 737 overruns in bad weather (but it's not like we don't see 737 overruns outside Indonesia). Few Indonesian incidents involve newer aircraft that have been badly maintained. Poor airmanship in bad conditions is not a reflection on the plane itself.

The point about planes being leased rather than owned by Lion, is that the lessor has a very significant interest in ensuring their planes are properly maintained and documented by the operator.

If these aircraft were operated by Lion Air, or even if operated by another airline, all maintenance records need to be fully documented from the date they were delivered from the Boeing factory. If they cannot be documented or there are other questions about the serviceability of the aircraft they would need to be opened completely under a D-Check or Heavy Check to determine serviceability and repair of the aircraft. This would also include removal and testing of all rotable parts, which required a full history back to birth, and other reparable parts which don't normally have a history kept. This would be a requirement of the FAA before the aircraft could be registered and operated in the the United States. This could be done by Delta or a qualified and licensed maintenance provider. The lease holder would be obligated to absorb this cost and/or Delta would be compensated for the cost in a lower lease rate or or purchase price if Delta had any monies invested in any Checks. If the aircraft are not fully documented back to the aircraft being delivered by Boeing they would be flown to the desert by the lessor and at best used as parts aircraft with any item removed from the aircraft being tested, repaired and certified as safe to use. :old:


Yes, that was exactly my point.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
scbriml wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
What? Most of the recent incidents have been 737s.


Many Indonesian incidents involve 737 overruns in bad weather (but it's not like we don't see 737 overruns outside Indonesia). Few Indonesian incidents involve newer aircraft that have been badly maintained. Poor airmanship in bad conditions is not a reflection on the plane itself.

The point about planes being leased rather than owned by Lion, is that the lessor has a very significant interest in ensuring their planes are properly maintained and documented by the operator.

If these aircraft were operated by Lion Air, or even if operated by another airline, all maintenance records need to be fully documented from the date they were delivered from the Boeing factory. If they cannot be documented or there are other questions about the serviceability of the aircraft they would need to be opened completely under a D-Check or Heavy Check to determine serviceability and repair of the aircraft. This would also include removal and testing of all rotable parts, which required a full history back to birth, and other reparable parts which don't normally have a history kept. This would be a requirement of the FAA before the aircraft could be registered and operated in the the United States. This could be done by Delta or a qualified and licensed maintenance provider. The lease holder would be obligated to absorb this cost and/or Delta would be compensated for the cost in a lower lease rate or or purchase price if Delta had any monies invested in any Checks. If the aircraft are not fully documented back to the aircraft being delivered by Boeing they would be flown to the desert by the lessor and at best used as parts aircraft with any item removed from the aircraft being tested, repaired and certified as safe to use. :old:


My point if you read my post was not on whether or not the aircraft were properly maintained or safety - it was entirely on perception by the US public.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:10 pm

Some of the comments would lead one to believe that when/if DL announces this, they're going to shout to the world "Hey everyone, we just bought the 737-900ERs that Lion Air managed to not crash, no biggie guys!"...........

By the time DL inducts them into the fleet, most will believe that they're brand new.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:17 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
Some of the comments would lead one to believe that when/if DL announces this, they're going to shout to the world "Hey everyone, we just bought the 737-900ERs that Lion Air managed to not crash, no biggie guys!"...........

By the time DL inducts them into the fleet, most will believe that they're brand new.

:checkmark:

How many people do think flew on DL’s MD-90s realized that a majority of them were bought secondhand? And some of them were assembled in China :o
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:24 pm

Polot wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Some of the comments would lead one to believe that when/if DL announces this, they're going to shout to the world "Hey everyone, we just bought the 737-900ERs that Lion Air managed to not crash, no biggie guys!"...........

By the time DL inducts them into the fleet, most will believe that they're brand new.

:checkmark:

How many people do think flew on DL’s MD-90s realized that a majority of them were bought secondhand? And some of them were assembled in China :o

Only serious anetters would have known lol
I think only 16 or so of their order actually got delivered. It's kind of ironic that they eventually had 60 something frames
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:28 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
If the aircraft are not fully documented back to the aircraft being delivered by Boeing they would be flown to the desert by the lessor and at best used as parts aircraft with any item removed from the aircraft being tested, repaired and certified as safe to use. :old:

Interestingly enough the Lion Air JT610 aircraft flew with an AoA sensor that was removed from another aircraft then tested, repaired and certified as safe to use by a FAA-approved repair station. Unfortunately in all of this it was mis-calibrated and it read 21 degrees too high ( ref: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ir-sensor/ ). Suggests we shouldn't be so confident about those repair processes.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:38 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Some of the comments would lead one to believe that when/if DL announces this, they're going to shout to the world "Hey everyone, we just bought the 737-900ERs that Lion Air managed to not crash, no biggie guys!"...........

By the time DL inducts them into the fleet, most will believe that they're brand new.

:checkmark:

How many people do think flew on DL’s MD-90s realized that a majority of them were bought secondhand? And some of them were assembled in China :o

Only serious anetters would have known lol
I think only 16 or so of their order actually got delivered. It's kind of ironic that they eventually had 60 something frames


My only comment was on perception given that non-aviation friends of mine associate Lion Air and Indonesian with crashes - reality aside. Just seems like a risk DL may not want to take on the publicity front as the airlines are trying to get people flying again. I certainly don't think DL would make that statement, but rather the media. Let's be honest, we can easily see headlines "DL takes aircraft from troubled Lion Air after crashes."

Did DL actually operate Chinese-built MD90s- I thought the ones they took were just for parts?
 
Elementalism
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:42 pm

flyfresno wrote:
STT757 wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
Norwegian MAX 8’s? :stirthepot:


Yeah I don’t think it’s 73NGs, they just retired ten relatively new 73Gs. I’m guessing 737-8 Max, used or perhaps white tails?


Are there any used -900ERs available anywhere? That seems equally likely...


That is what I was thinking. Delta seems to like the 737-900ER.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:49 pm

What a silly discussion. DL isn't going to order a single used jet that it had questions about its maintenance standards -- almost unquestionably, DL would've performed a preliminary inspection, as the costs to bring these jets to DL standards needs to be taken into consideration before negotiating a purchase price.

And I'd bet that the percentage of the American public (the 739 would be domestic jets) who recalls even hearing of Lion Air -- let alone know the history of maintenance standards in that region -- would be in the low single digits. And the number that even cared would be miniscule.

Again... it's a silly discussion.

Elementalism wrote:
That is what I was thinking. Delta seems to like the 737-900ER.


Logical fallacy. I'm sure DL's satisfied with the performance of the 739, but the motivation for such purchase would be almost entirely price. DL would likely take any bulk late model 739 and/or 321CEO it could get a screaming deal on.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:55 pm

People tend to forget Delta is an MRO. A lot of insourcing.

Elementalism wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
STT757 wrote:

Yeah I don’t think it’s 73NGs, they just retired ten relatively new 73Gs. I’m guessing 737-8 Max, used or perhaps white tails?


Are there any used -900ERs available anywhere? That seems equally likely...


That is what I was thinking. Delta seems to like the 737-900ER.


That’s a bit of a stretch to say like. It was more of an opportunistic order, some 787 compensation may have been a part of it. They were more than happy to add the A321.
Last edited by Lootess on Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:56 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Polot wrote:
:checkmark:

How many people do think flew on DL’s MD-90s realized that a majority of them were bought secondhand? And some of them were assembled in China :o

Only serious anetters would have known lol
I think only 16 or so of their order actually got delivered. It's kind of ironic that they eventually had 60 something frames


My only comment was on perception given that non-aviation friends of mine associate Lion Air and Indonesian with crashes - reality aside. Just seems like a risk DL may not want to take on the publicity front as the airlines are trying to get people flying again. I certainly don't think DL would make that statement, but rather the media. Let's be honest, we can easily see headlines "DL takes aircraft from troubled Lion Air after crashes."

Did DL actually operate Chinese-built MD90s- I thought the ones they took were just for parts?


I have a safety card from a Delta MD-90 flight that says, "Final assembly of this aircraft was completed in China." So, no, not just for parts.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:05 pm

Lootess wrote:
People tend to forget Delta is an MRO. A lot of insourcing.

Elementalism wrote:
flyfresno wrote:

Are there any used -900ERs available anywhere? That seems equally likely...


That is what I was thinking. Delta seems to like the 737-900ER.


That’s a bit of a stretch to say like. It was more of an opportunistic order, some 787 compensation may have been a part of it. They were more than happy to add the A321.


DL did add to their -900ER order a couple of times, so I don't think its a stretch. (Yes, 10 were a put option by Boeing, but I firmly believe Boeing wouldn't have done that without DL's buy-in.)
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:11 pm

Delta liking the 737-900ER is a part of the equation, but it's only one part of the equation.

Because a limited number of airlines operate the 737-900ER, there are fewer airlines that are competing for used frames, pushing the price down when compared to more popular models. Over 80% of the production run is currently with four airlines - Alaska, Delta, United, and Lion Air. One of those four is getting rid of off-lease frames, another (Alaska) doesn't need to replace as many frames, so that leaves only Delta and United as potential buyers. Delta loves to get good value by buying used frames that no one else wants (such as the MD-90 whole production), so of course they would want these frames. Plus, these frames use a common engine as the rest of the 737 family, so Delta won't be getting into a similar situation as it faced with the MD-90 engine overhaul provider challenge.
 
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N776AU
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:16 pm

tullamarine wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.

Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.

I noticed flying a MAX with Southwest a couple weeks ago that the crew did their damndest to portray the aircraft as a 737-800. Seems deceitful to me.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:19 pm

If DL is acquiring a bunch of ex-JT B739(ER)s, how would this ultimately affect the value of other used frames? JT is the only operator outside of the USA that is a B739(ER) operator of scale. (Besides them, the only major airline not in the USA that ordered the B739(ER) new and not from a lessor was LY, ordering 9.)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:25 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
Delta liking the 737-900ER is a part of the equation, but it's only one part of the equation.

Because a limited number of airlines operate the 737-900ER, there are fewer airlines that are competing for used frames, pushing the price down when compared to more popular models. Over 80% of the production run is currently with four airlines - Alaska, Delta, United, and Lion Air. One of those four is getting rid of off-lease frames, another (Alaska) doesn't need to replace as many frames, so that leaves only Delta and United as potential buyers. Delta loves to get good value by buying used frames that no one else wants (such as the MD-90 whole production), so of course they would want these frames. Plus, these frames use a common engine as the rest of the 737 family, so Delta won't be getting into a similar situation as it faced with the MD-90 engine overhaul provider challenge.

Just to add:
Alaska has 81 MAX 9 on order, they just bought 13 more for fairly near term delivery. So, in my opinion, they would buy few used. This becomes unlikely as the fittings would be too different for a small fleet.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/05/ ... x-embraer/

We have a thread with UA possibly buying 100 to 150 MAX (likely -9, IMHO). This makes them unlikely buyers.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461645

So in an analogy similar to the MD-90, Delta is really the only buyer. Does anyone wonder why leasing companies seem to have a rule of thumb of 20+ operators for a type?

With Lion rotating out 739ER, Delta just has to bid above today's depressed scrap values.

Lightsaber

PS, late edit, it would not surprise me to learn DL was buying MAX too.
 
jagraham
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
737-800s or 900ERs would be fine. Can't imagine they would want -700s at almost any price. They may get some MAX 8s but I doubt the first bunch would be used.

It was $62 million, actually, to cancel the order for the four used LATAM A350s.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 628dcd3391


Exiting the purchase was the only way DL could send LATAM some money under the PPP rules
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:43 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
DL did add to their -900ER order a couple of times, so I don't think its a stretch. (Yes, 10 were a put option by Boeing, but I firmly believe Boeing wouldn't have done that without DL's buy-in.)


Not quite. In the early '10s, DL was shopping between the 739ER and 321CEO. Sources indicated DL preferred the latter, but Boeing offered DL a significantly better deal, largely based upon 787 performance penalties owed to DL. DL ordered 100 firm and 40 options -- they later exercised the 40 options, cancelled the order, then picked up 20 options. Boeing later exercised 10 put options. Meanwhile... instead of adding more B739ER, DL placed multiple A321CEO orders totaling 127 aircraft (three shy of its B739 total). One could argue that DL ordered more A321 than B739, despite the former arriving on property years later! No doubt the purchases for the 257 B739/A321 were largely driven by heavy end-of-life discounting, but DL kept adding to its A321 total even when it probably could've gotten favorable pricing for more B739.

That said, I'm certain DL's satisfied with both types. But any late model second hand purchases will be driven by price. Alas, it's more than a stretch to say 'DL's ordering the B739 because it loves the plane and can't get enough.' It's a pure fallacy.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:54 pm

Just got off a conference call. I asked the group: “Would you fly on a 737 bought used from Lion Air?”

Answers were like this:
Who’s Lion Air?
Isn’t Lion Air that new airline by that former Jet Blue Guy?
I think they fly charter flights in Great Britton. Might be sketchy because of that.

These are medallion flyers.
No one ever heard of Lion Air.
 
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snoopaloop
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:57 pm

I just wish if this is true, DL will start by reconfiguring these 739ER’s into a more passenger friendly configuration. More C+ would be greatly welcome, as would a mid-cabin lav. Wishful thinking, I know…
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:11 pm

They bought the Saudi planes for parts I thought.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:13 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Many Indonesian incidents involve 737 overruns in bad weather (but it's not like we don't see 737 overruns outside Indonesia). Few Indonesian incidents involve newer aircraft that have been badly maintained. Poor airmanship in bad conditions is not a reflection on the plane itself.

The point about planes being leased rather than owned by Lion, is that the lessor has a very significant interest in ensuring their planes are properly maintained and documented by the operator.

If these aircraft were operated by Lion Air, or even if operated by another airline, all maintenance records need to be fully documented from the date they were delivered from the Boeing factory. If they cannot be documented or there are other questions about the serviceability of the aircraft they would need to be opened completely under a D-Check or Heavy Check to determine serviceability and repair of the aircraft. This would also include removal and testing of all rotable parts, which required a full history back to birth, and other reparable parts which don't normally have a history kept. This would be a requirement of the FAA before the aircraft could be registered and operated in the the United States. This could be done by Delta or a qualified and licensed maintenance provider. The lease holder would be obligated to absorb this cost and/or Delta would be compensated for the cost in a lower lease rate or or purchase price if Delta had any monies invested in any Checks. If the aircraft are not fully documented back to the aircraft being delivered by Boeing they would be flown to the desert by the lessor and at best used as parts aircraft with any item removed from the aircraft being tested, repaired and certified as safe to use. :old:


My point if you read my post was not on whether or not the aircraft were properly maintained or safety - it was entirely on perception by the US public.

Southwest is buying somewhere between 100 and 150 737MAX aircraft. Alaska Airlines is now replacing their A320s with 737MAX aircraft. Southwest has had at least two 737 aircraft that have incidents that have had deaths involved. Boeing needed to ground two types of aircraft that had serious problems. The 737MAX and the 787. Are people refusing ro fly these aircraft? People have short memories. One post earlier mentioned that one of the 737 MAX that crashed had the AOA replaced but it was miscalibrated by 21 degrees. Do not know if it that is true. It has been reported that Boeing has had problems with new aircraft like the 737 and 787. The 787 has had battery problems which had a cobbled up repair together along with fuselage sections not matting together properly. Both have had wiring problems along with metal shaving laying loose in areas that pose a problem. The 737 also has had electrical grounding problems. The 737 should've been replaced after the 737NG. But Southwest Airlines seems to be running the show at Boeing by wanting 737s to be built on what may be an indefinite it period. Maybe Southwest should buy the production rights for the 737 which is my cynicism. Northwest Airlines flew the largest number of refurbished DC-9s that people could not tell that they were getting long in the tooth. They did not object. Like I said people have short memories and I doubt unless 737s start falling out of the sky like the Martin 202 and Lockheed 188 people will fly them like nothing happened. :old:
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:16 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Southwest is buying somewhere between 100 and 150 737MAX aircraft. Alaska Airlines is now replacing their A320s with 737MAX aircraft. Southwest has had at least two 737 aircraft that have incidents that have had deaths involved. Boeing needed to ground two types of aircraft that had serious problems. The 737MAX and the 787. Are people refusing ro fly these aircraft? People have short memories. One post earlier mentioned that one of the 737 MAX that crashed had the AOA replaced but it was miscalibrated by 21 degrees. Do not know if it that is true. It has been reported that Boeing has had problems with new aircraft like the 737 and 787. The 787 has had battery problems which had a cobbled up repair together along with fuselage sections not matting together properly. Both have had wiring problems along with metal shaving laying loose in areas that pose a problem. The 737 also has had electrical grounding problems. The 737 should've been replaced after the 737NG. But Southwest Airlines seems to be running the show at Boeing by wanting 737s to be built on what may be an indefinite it period. Maybe Southwest should buy the production rights for the 737 which is my cynicism. Northwest Airlines flew the largest number of refurbished DC-9s that people could not tell that they were getting long in the tooth. They did not object. Like I said people have short memories and I doubt unless 737s start falling out of the sky like the Martin 202 and Lockheed 188 people will fly them like nothing happened. :old:


Fair points - reports are suggesting people flying aren't having concerns about the MAX. I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill and just bracing against the inevitable headlines.
 
UA444
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:55 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Only serious anetters would have known lol
I think only 16 or so of their order actually got delivered. It's kind of ironic that they eventually had 60 something frames


My only comment was on perception given that non-aviation friends of mine associate Lion Air and Indonesian with crashes - reality aside. Just seems like a risk DL may not want to take on the publicity front as the airlines are trying to get people flying again. I certainly don't think DL would make that statement, but rather the media. Let's be honest, we can easily see headlines "DL takes aircraft from troubled Lion Air after crashes."

Did DL actually operate Chinese-built MD90s- I thought the ones they took were just for parts?


I have a safety card from a Delta MD-90 flight that says, "Final assembly of this aircraft was completed in China." So, no, not just for parts.

Only two MD-90s were built in China and they bought both
 
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fanoftristars
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:12 pm

Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:17 pm

UA444 wrote:
Only two MD-90s were built in China and they bought both


The Aircraft Data Plate in the forward doorway said “Boeing P.R.C.” Instead of “ Boeing Seattle, Washington, U.S.A.”
 
UA444
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:22 pm

Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.
 
NLINK
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:37 pm

UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Only 8 ER's and they are really too old to bring back to re start up the program.
Some of the 10 LR's have been sold to what I would guess to be parts planes already plus they are not the most fuel efficient.

The LR's were only needed to server one route non-stop. The 350's can do the majority.

Cost wise cheaper to buy used 350's
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:40 pm

UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.

Zero chance.
Removing the 777 removed a significant amount of structural cost and complexity from the operation.
Removed 1 fleet type, 2 sub-fleets, 2 engine types, 1 pilot category.
A fairly significant amount of overhead in terms of indirect labor, parts/spares, training, etc.
More feasible to consolidate long-term around the A359

Supposedly the 777LR may have a buyer. The 77E's probably will never fly again.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:42 pm

UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.


Even if possible, logistics would make it challenging and expensive (e.g. pilots have already been moved to other fleet types, etc.). Not to mention, the ULH flying that was chased with the 77L largely proved unprofitable (partially due to the economics of the aircraft itself).

When DL made the decision to permanently retire the 777, I’m sure it considered an array of factors, including that the market would be flooded with aircraft such as the 330, depressing the price.

And while this thread seemingly takes the position that the industry will have fully received by next year, IMO, that’ll be far from the case. People have been slower to return to the office than anticipated, and I expect that will be true of business travel as well. And the long-haul network heavily relies on business travel...
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:54 pm

UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.
 
N649DL
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:46 am

fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).
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