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ZazuPIT
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:20 am

N776AU wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don’t know why you guys assume in PR that DL would announce the original the source of the aircraft. They would just announce they are buying/leasing secondhand 737s from lessor X and probably not mention Lionair once in the press release.

Aviation publications and us would know, but most of the general public does not read those articles nor care enough to do further research.

Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.

I noticed flying a MAX with Southwest a couple weeks ago that the crew did their damndest to portray the aircraft as a 737-800. Seems deceitful to me.


Exactly what did they say to give that impression? I flew on one recently as well. The model type was not even mentioned by any crew member.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:43 am

N649DL wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1185
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:48 am

sxf24 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:


Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


It seems like they're buying a lot more Airbus these days and not so much Boeing. Except for the 757 & 738 it seems like *if anything* they're retiring more of them with the 763, 73G, and 777. I suppose that's the NW influence at DL these days.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8782
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:49 am

N649DL wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


The big saving grace of the United frames is the mid-cabin lav between coach and first. It means that coach pax aren’t either stranded from the lavs for half the flight or have to go through first.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4729
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:59 am

Do we know for a fact that it's 737-900s that are being evaluated? There's a lot of not-very-old Norwegian 737-800s that are in the process of being returned to various lessors.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:22 am

zkojq wrote:
Do we know for a fact that it's 737-900s that are being evaluated? There's a lot of not-very-old Norwegian 737-800s that are in the process of being returned to various lessors.


Why get a 738 when you can get a 739 for the same price if not cheaper? It's going to be 739s.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1185
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:45 am

777Mech wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Do we know for a fact that it's 737-900s that are being evaluated? There's a lot of not-very-old Norwegian 737-800s that are in the process of being returned to various lessors.


Why get a 738 when you can get a 739 for the same price if not cheaper? It's going to be 739s.


Because the 739s performance is garbage? Especially with regards to cargo capacity?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3893
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:07 am

STT757 wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
Norwegian MAX 8’s? :stirthepot:


Yeah I don’t think it’s 73NGs, they just retired ten relatively new 73Gs. I’m guessing 737-8 Max, used or perhaps white tails?


New? The 73G's were from Western Airlines merger that got them the SLC hub. But then again DC-9's from NW were kept.
 
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OA412
Moderator
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:34 am

??? The 737-700 wasnt even available until a decade after the merger with Western. DL inherited 737-300s from WA.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:51 am

N649DL wrote:
777Mech wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Do we know for a fact that it's 737-900s that are being evaluated? There's a lot of not-very-old Norwegian 737-800s that are in the process of being returned to various lessors.


Why get a 738 when you can get a 739 for the same price if not cheaper? It's going to be 739s.


Because the 739s performance is garbage? Especially with regards to cargo capacity?

??? The 757 and A321 are the only narrow bodies that you can fly today that has more cargo capacity than the 739. If the A321 has aux tanks installed capacity is similar if not less.

The 739’s performance is only complete garbage from short runways. Most major airports in the US do not have runway issues, and the plane is rarely being flown at MTOW. Do you honestly think a 739’s performance is stressed on a 1 hr ATL-BNA flight for example?
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3802
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:51 am

OA412 wrote:
??? The 737-700 wasnt even available until a decade after the merger with Western. DL inherited 737-300s from WA.


73G was an internal Delta code for a batch of 737-300s I believe at first.
 
Western727
Posts: 2091
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:25 pm

Polot wrote:
N649DL wrote:
777Mech wrote:

Why get a 738 when you can get a 739 for the same price if not cheaper? It's going to be 739s.


Because the 739s performance is garbage? Especially with regards to cargo capacity?

??? The 757 and A321 are the only narrow bodies that you can fly today that has more cargo capacity than the 739. If the A321 has aux tanks installed capacity is similar if not less.

The 739’s performance is only complete garbage from short runways. Most major airports in the US do not have runway issues, and the plane is rarely being flown at MTOW. Do you honestly think a 739’s performance is stressed on a 1 hr ATL-BNA flight for example?


That's my understanding as well. There are only a select few US airports that cannot handle a 739 at MTOW. DL flies multiple 739s ATL-SEA, for example. I imagine the CASM is ideal on these flights.
 
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N776AU
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm

ZazuPIT wrote:
N776AU wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Correct, most people wouldn’t even know or care what type of plane they were on let alone who previously operated it. If pax perceptions were really an issue the MAX would never have flown again but this is not the case.

I noticed flying a MAX with Southwest a couple weeks ago that the crew did their damndest to portray the aircraft as a 737-800. Seems deceitful to me.


Exactly what did they say to give that impression? I flew on one recently as well. The model type was not even mentioned by any crew member.

Gate announcements and the safety briefing they called it an “800 series aircraft.” The only thing that said MAX was the safety card.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1146
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm

Western727 wrote:
Polot wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Because the 739s performance is garbage? Especially with regards to cargo capacity?

??? The 757 and A321 are the only narrow bodies that you can fly today that has more cargo capacity than the 739. If the A321 has aux tanks installed capacity is similar if not less.

The 739’s performance is only complete garbage from short runways. Most major airports in the US do not have runway issues, and the plane is rarely being flown at MTOW. Do you honestly think a 739’s performance is stressed on a 1 hr ATL-BNA flight for example?


That's my understanding as well. There are only a select few US airports that cannot handle a 739 at MTOW. DL flies multiple 739s ATL-SEA, for example. I imagine the CASM is ideal on these flights.


For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5546
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:45 pm

Alitalia744 wrote:
OA412 wrote:
??? The 737-700 wasnt even available until a decade after the merger with Western. DL inherited 737-300s from WA.


73G was an internal Delta code for a batch of 737-300s I believe at first.


Yeah it's this kind of arcane trivia with internal DL codes that makes the DL fleet thread unreadable without an Enigma machine and a Ouija board. Common shorthand for 73G for the past 20-ish years has been 737-700 around this site at least.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:49 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Polot wrote:
??? The 757 and A321 are the only narrow bodies that you can fly today that has more cargo capacity than the 739. If the A321 has aux tanks installed capacity is similar if not less.

The 739’s performance is only complete garbage from short runways. Most major airports in the US do not have runway issues, and the plane is rarely being flown at MTOW. Do you honestly think a 739’s performance is stressed on a 1 hr ATL-BNA flight for example?


That's my understanding as well. There are only a select few US airports that cannot handle a 739 at MTOW. DL flies multiple 739s ATL-SEA, for example. I imagine the CASM is ideal on these flights.


For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...

A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.
 
deltaguy767
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:32 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:18 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Western727 wrote:

That's my understanding as well. There are only a select few US airports that cannot handle a 739 at MTOW. DL flies multiple 739s ATL-SEA, for example. I imagine the CASM is ideal on these flights.


For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...

A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.

Not endorsing the original comments re VCE per se, however it's not just runway length as the only critical variable regrading operational parameters. Certain climbout performance could be required due to terrain or local procedures that could disqualify it as well as crosswind component or other weather phenomena (i.e. density altitude, temp, humidity)
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:27 pm

deltaguy767 wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...

A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.

Not endorsing the original comments re VCE per se, however it's not just runway length as the only critical variable regrading operational parameters. Certain climbout performance could be required due to terrain or local procedures that could disqualify it as well as crosswind component or other weather phenomena (i.e. density altitude, temp, humidity)

Agreed, but most of those parameters don’t apply in the listed examples. The reality is the 739ER’s takeoff performance has become a bit of a meme at this point on this board. It’s not fantastic, but it’s no where near as bad as people here make it seem because most narrowbody/regional flights are nowhere close to MTOW. This is especially true in Europe where most flights are <1000 nm while at MTOW A320ceos/737NGs can fly roughly 3000-3500 nm. The 737Max9’s take performance at MTOW is just as bad as the 739ER’s but UA flew/flies them 2000 nm to SFO from OGG’s 7000’ runway (not possible with 739ER due to weight of additional fuel needed).
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1146
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:45 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Western727 wrote:

That's my understanding as well. There are only a select few US airports that cannot handle a 739 at MTOW. DL flies multiple 739s ATL-SEA, for example. I imagine the CASM is ideal on these flights.


For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...

A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.


Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:56 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

For the US the 739 Performance was never really an issue but the poor sales outside show the real problem the 739 faced. This is just a small sample of Italian airports where the 739ER would struggle:

Catania
Florence
Milano Linate
Naples
Olbia
Rome Ciampino
Venice

Now here we see why we have almost no 739s in Europe (IIRC KLM has a hand full). This are 7 medium to large airports that you can not use with a 739ER (and that is only in Italy). So operating 9ERs would give headaches to scheduling...

A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.


Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).
 
Western727
Posts: 2091
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:59 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.


Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).


Great insight. Polot: does that 190 figure include Germanwings or are you specifying only LH itself, as I suspect you are?
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:04 pm

Western727 wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).


Great insight. Polot: does that 190 figure include Germanwings or are you specifying only LH itself, as I suspect you are?

German wings is not included because Germanwings/Eurowings/whatever it is now or about to become is technically a separate airline. The Delta (and LH) numbers do not include any regional jets, even those operated by wholly owned subsidiaries like Endeavor.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1146
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:05 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
A 739ER has no issue for most European flights from most of those airports. (I mean VCE??? With its ~11,000’ runway? How much runway do you think a 739ER needs for an intra-European flight???). KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

You see almost no 739s in Europe because most European airlines are A320 family operators.


Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).


Exactly so there was never really a chance for 739s in Europe just due to the design deficits and the market dynamics. The 739 did not bring any benefits to the 737 operators in Europe only drawbacks. Almost no flag carrier is operating 737s out of their main hub (besides KLM), but we have a lot of LCC/ULCCs that use it and the size of the 739 did not bring any benefits (it was too small, the extra seats would only increase the FA limit).

In the US, where the seat for First is way more premium, the 739 size made sense, everywhere else not. Combined with the take off performance issues it was just not a good aircraft.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:18 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).


Exactly so there was never really a chance for 739s in Europe just due to the design deficits and the market dynamics. The 739 did not bring any benefits to the 737 operators in Europe only drawbacks. Almost no flag carrier is operating 737s out of their main hub (besides KLM), but we have a lot of LCC/ULCCs that use it and the size of the 739 did not bring any benefits (it was too small, the extra seats would only increase the FA limit).

In the US, where the seat for First is way more premium, the 739 size made sense, everywhere else not. Combined with the take off performance issues it was just not a good aircraft.

I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance.

The reality is most European legacies made their narrow body fleet decisions before the 739 and A321 were even in existence (in some cases before the 737NG was even on the table). They did not specifically choose the A320 family because of the A321 and how it compared to 739. The greater size differential between the A321 and A320 (and greater overall size of the A321) makes the A321 more attractive for the ULCCs versus the 739 for 738 operators like Ryanair. Take off performance had little to do with the plane’s lack of sales success in the region.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:28 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:

The big saving grace of the United frames is the mid-cabin lav between coach and first. It means that coach pax aren’t either stranded from the lavs for half the flight or have to go through first.


Exactly this!!! On a 5hr transcon on the Delta 739, there is effectively one lav for 180 passengers towards then end of the drink service and it takes a very long time to do drink service in that plane. That combined with a very small Comfort Plus section compared to UA's Economy Plus section make this a sardine can at Delta. The first row of coach can't even get their TVs out if the last row of first class is reclined.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:45 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

Yet somehow MoL is saying FR wants to take 100 MAX-10s. Should be an eye opener for many.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Must have missed the VCE runway, I only had the short one in mind. The actual problem stays the same though, airlines buy the aircraft for their maximal take off performance even if rarely needed. On top of that Europe and other markets are not comparable to the USA. Many carriers in Europe have only one hub and need the aircraft to be able to fly every possible route. So one day it is ZRH-FUE the next day it is ZRH-Linate, this are extreme cases (not real cases, but that is taken into consideration). The carriers can not afford to have subfleets just for certain pairs or that only work on certain routes. That is why we also do not see 737 and 320 at the same carriers in Europe (in general). The European carriers need all rounders that work everywhere, hence the popularity of the 737-800/MAX-8 or the 320/321.

Yet somehow MoL is saying FR wants to take 100 MAX-10s. Should be an eye opener for many.


Yeah he will but that is in the future. The MAX-10 had no influence on any purchase in Europe as of yet. There are also not that many more airlines I can see the MAX-10. Vueling, Transavia and KLM are candidates.

EDIT: I mean in the sense of there was or is no airline in Europe that has to decide between -10s and 321, the decisions for that were made long ago.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:32 pm

It seems Delta is happy with the 737-900ER, the fleet is just 5 yrs old on average. They took a lot in 2018-2019. They (TechOps) have a large CFM pool & capability & can overhaul / standardize the aircraft when they come in. A longer term investment considering Delta will be flying 737-900ER's for the next 20 years.

Image
source : wiki

On the A350s, good deal if they have the cash, after phasing out their 777 fleet last year. Restoring business on the Pacific with the cargo capable long range A350s. https://insideflyer.com/2020/05/17/delt ... 777-fleet/
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:33 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Supposedly Thursday is the day.


Is this still the case?
 
N649DL
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:44 pm

rbavfan wrote:
STT757 wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
Norwegian MAX 8’s? :stirthepot:


Yeah I don’t think it’s 73NGs, they just retired ten relatively new 73Gs. I’m guessing 737-8 Max, used or perhaps white tails?


New? The 73G's were from Western Airlines merger that got them the SLC hub. But then again DC-9's from NW were kept.


When I say 73G I meant the 737-700 which DL only had 10 of. The Ex-Western 737s I would just refer to as 733s.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:55 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems Delta is happy with the 737-900ER, the fleet is just 5 yrs old on average. They took a lot in 2018-2019. They (TechOps) have a large CFM pool & capability & can overhaul / standardize the aircraft when they come in. A longer term investment considering Delta will be flying 737-900ER's for the next 20 years.

Image
source : wiki

On the A350s, good deal if they have the cash, after phasing out their 777 fleet last year. Restoring business on the Pacific with the cargo capable long range A350s. https://insideflyer.com/2020/05/17/delt ... 777-fleet/

Delta outsources most of their own heavy maintenance overhauls and all interior mods are outsourced. So delta won’t be reconfiguring any used planes in-house.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:03 pm

N649DL wrote:
777Mech wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Do we know for a fact that it's 737-900s that are being evaluated? There's a lot of not-very-old Norwegian 737-800s that are in the process of being returned to various lessors.


Why get a 738 when you can get a 739 for the same price if not cheaper? It's going to be 739s.


Because the 739s performance is garbage? Especially with regards to cargo capacity?


Yeah, I'm not buying that. DL obviously thinks you're wrong too. You're going to get a lower CASM machine at a stupid low price, that's perfect for their short to mid-haul routes. They a rent going to carry much cargo on those routes anyways. It's not like it's flying to LHR.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm

777Mech wrote:
Yeah, I'm not buying that. DL obviously thinks you're wrong too. You're going to get a lower CASM machine at a stupid low price, that's perfect for their short to mid-haul routes. They a rent going to carry much cargo on those routes anyways. It's not like it's flying to LHR.


Don't worry, we will hear shortly about no ability to containerize cargo in 737s and how no airline could possibly want that! I love how some posters think DL was forced into 130 737-900ERs.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:14 pm

The Delta 739 configuration is terrible. I don’t understand why American took so much flack about oasis and densifying when Delta had already been doing it. DL is the only U.S. carrier I can think of that uses the half size forward galley on the 739ER, you would think that would lend more floor space, but even in first class it feels tight for 20 seats. To make matters worse, the plane does a lot of 3 plus hour hauls. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for those PTVs people would be so much more critical about the DL experience.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:29 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
The Delta 739 configuration is terrible. I don’t understand why American took so much flack about oasis and densifying when Delta had already been doing it. DL is the only U.S. carrier I can think of that uses the half size forward galley on the 739ER, you would think that would lend more floor space, but even in first class it feels tight for 20 seats. To make matters worse, the plane does a lot of 3 plus hour hauls. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for those PTVs people would be so much more critical about the DL experience.


What does the galley have to do with customer experience? The 739 lopa is very efficient for delta but the average seat pitch is still higher than oasis. Add to that the ptvs it make for a good experience. I think the misstep was the bathroom. Some of them are approaching their midlife refresh.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:32 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Supposedly Thursday is the day.


Is this still the case?

The permutations of the rumor going around to hinted at "this week". Some people extrapolated that to be Thursday since this morning was DL's annual investor day meeting.
That meeting has since come and gone but has never really been a forum in the past to make any big announcements.

Since this rumored deal for used aircraft isn't with an OEM, how they disclose the transaction and the timing for publicly announcing it may be different.
Sometimes these rumors get out from people familiar with the matter who may have briefed prior to any MOU being signed or being a part of the due-diligence phase.
I'm not sure if we will actually hear anything publicly now or this may not be announced until Q2 earnings release which is in mid-July
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:37 pm

I too suspect nothing official until the next quarterly report.

LawAndOrder wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
The Delta 739 configuration is terrible. I don’t understand why American took so much flack about oasis and densifying when Delta had already been doing it. DL is the only U.S. carrier I can think of that uses the half size forward galley on the 739ER, you would think that would lend more floor space, but even in first class it feels tight for 20 seats. To make matters worse, the plane does a lot of 3 plus hour hauls. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for those PTVs people would be so much more critical about the DL experience.


What does the galley have to do with customer experience? The 739 lopa is very efficient for delta but the average seat pitch is still higher than oasis. Add to that the ptvs it make for a good experience. I think the misstep was the bathroom. Some of them are approaching their midlife refresh.

As a passenger, I am very happy with the DL 739 configuration. I have flown it in every class and feel the value for the money justifies it. In fact, now that DL has retired the MD-80 (I couldn't stand the engine noise in the back), I pick flights without consideration of mainline aircraft (purely on timing/cost). I do look for options around the RJs as I like larger overhead bins.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:43 pm

LawAndOrder wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
The Delta 739 configuration is terrible. I don’t understand why American took so much flack about oasis and densifying when Delta had already been doing it. DL is the only U.S. carrier I can think of that uses the half size forward galley on the 739ER, you would think that would lend more floor space, but even in first class it feels tight for 20 seats. To make matters worse, the plane does a lot of 3 plus hour hauls. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for those PTVs people would be so much more critical about the DL experience.


What does the galley have to do with customer experience? The 739 lopa is very efficient for delta but the average seat pitch is still higher than oasis. Add to that the ptvs it make for a good experience. I think the misstep was the bathroom. Some of them are approaching their midlife refresh.

It will be interesting to see what DL does with the A321neo, which I assume will be a ACF. Is the door configuration expected to be the same as AA’s (one set of overwings activated and the mid aft cabin door activated) or will they have both overlong exits with the mid aft door deactivated and “overperforming” exits front and rear? Both allow for maximum of 200 seats.

Right now the A321 mid cabin lav is at the mid aft exit. I assume the second configuration I listed above is a little lighter, but harder to stick a mid cabin lav in a natural way.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:45 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems Delta is happy with the 737-900ER, the fleet is just 5 yrs old on average. They took a lot in 2018-2019. They (TechOps) have a large CFM pool & capability & can overhaul / standardize the aircraft when they come in. A longer term investment considering Delta will be flying 737-900ER's for the next 20 years.

Image
source : wiki

On the A350s, good deal if they have the cash, after phasing out their 777 fleet last year. Restoring business on the Pacific with the cargo capable long range A350s. https://insideflyer.com/2020/05/17/delt ... 777-fleet/


This picture is of a 737-800. But your points are all valid.

Jeremy
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:47 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
The Delta 739 configuration is terrible. I don’t understand why American took so much flack about oasis and densifying when Delta had already been doing it. DL is the only U.S. carrier I can think of that uses the half size forward galley on the 739ER, you would think that would lend more floor space, but even in first class it feels tight for 20 seats. To make matters worse, the plane does a lot of 3 plus hour hauls. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t for those PTVs people would be so much more critical about the DL experience.


While I agree Delta's 739 is terrible, keep in mind F class pitch is the same as AA's Oasis for pitch, at 37". So really no tighter. Comfort+ is 34" to Oasis Main Cabin Extra at 33". Almost all Delta main cabin seats are at 31" pitch while Oasis is 30". Not a huge difference, but again, AA takes the cake with Oasis.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:05 pm

As far as I know, the DL 321N will feature four doors and four over wing window exits- exactly like the current 739ER. There is supposed to be a lavatory between first and economy.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:14 pm

Where are the 737-732s stored?
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:19 pm

Pinal Airpark, San Bernadino, Blytheville.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:24 pm

sxf24 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:


Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


They didn't actively seek out the 739ER, it was an opportunistic buy. Plus it wasn't that long after they reached a settlement on the 788s, even if they removed their place as a US launch customer.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:27 pm

Lootess wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.



I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


They didn't actively seek out the 739ER, it was an opportunistic buy. Plus it wasn't that long after they reached a settlement on the 788s, even if they removed their place as a US launch customer.

I mean they actively decided on the 739ER over 738s or other Boeing models. At the time DL was activity considering both the 739 and A321, they didn’t randomly decide they wanted to delay (later cancel) 787s one day and threw a dart to land on the 739 to apply any credits too.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:29 pm

If they are ex Lion Air, the airframes have had a reprieve from being written off before their time in dodgy circumstances :lol:
Good on DL for sharp business acumen and taking advantage of what has been a negative time for airlines and leasing companies alike, I am sure it will pay off in the not too distant future. I see this as the equivalent of "buying the dip" in stocks/forex/crypto.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:31 pm

Lootess wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.



I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


They didn't actively seek out the 739ER, it was an opportunistic buy. Plus it wasn't that long after they reached a settlement on the 788s, even if they removed their place as a US launch customer.


It is disingenuous to say DL didn't "actively seek out" the aircraft. If it was an opportunistic buy, DL *wanted* the aircraft. It bought 130 of them, far more than the value of the 788s (which were subject to major delays by Boeing, not only DL). If we exclude airlines ordering new models because of negotiating from old orders, a lot of airlines didn't "actively" seek out those aircraft.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:43 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


That's most likely not true. We know that DL evaluated both the 739 and 321. At the time, sources indicated that a 321 order was imminent, but at the 11th hour, Boeing gave DL an offer it couldn't refuse (largely based upon 787 performance penalties owed to DL via NW). Ultimately, DL exercised only 20 of its 40 options, but placed multiple A321CEO orders totaling 127 aircraft (nearly equal to the B739's total). The 321CEO orders kept coming, even as Boeing was desperate to fill 737NG production slots (which is one of the reasons it exercised 10 of its put options).

That's not to say that DL isn't satisfied with the 739. While we don't know the full narrative, the fact that DL kept adding to its 321CEO orders even when Boeing would've met or beat Airbus' price, makes the narrative the DL loves the 739 and was willing to pay a premium for it false.
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:47 pm

The B739 order for the initial 100 was at the conclusion of an RFP process that included all of the OEMs.
They didn't just "fall into" the 739. DL solicited proposals in 2011 from all the OEMs and obviously at the time

This is actually an interesting read, 10 years later.....
https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... dies-43675
 
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
It is disingenuous to say DL didn't "actively seek out" the aircraft. If it was an opportunistic buy, DL *wanted* the aircraft. It bought 130 of them, far more than the value of the 788s (which were subject to major delays by Boeing, not only DL). If we exclude airlines ordering new models because of negotiating from old orders, a lot of airlines didn't "actively" seek out those aircraft.


No, DL was seeking to place a large order of at least 100 frames (likely to maximize its discount) for either the 739 or 321. The 739 wasn't a 787 replacement order -- the 787 order stayed on the books for 6+ more years. But because the 787 did not meet certain performance requirements set forth in its contract with NW, DL (the successor to NW) was owed compensation, and that compensation was rolled into the 739's price.

If you search the forums, you will see where credible sources reported / reports of credible sources reporting that DL initially choose the 321, before changing to the 739 at the 11th hour after receiving a deal it couldn't refuse. Delta ordered 100 + 40 options. They initially exercised the 40 options, cancelled it during a pilots' squabble, then exercised half the amount. Boeing exercised 10 of its put options to bring the total to 130. Meanwhile, multiple 321CEO orders were placed bringing that type's total to 127.

Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.
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