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jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:52 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


That's most likely not true. We know that DL evaluated both the 739 and 321. At the time, sources indicated that a 321 order was imminent, but at the 11th hour, Boeing gave DL an offer it couldn't refuse (largely based upon 787 performance penalties owed to DL via NW). Ultimately, DL exercised only 20 of its 40 options, but placed multiple A321CEO orders totaling 127 aircraft (nearly equal to the B739's total). The 321CEO orders kept coming, even as Boeing was desperate to fill 737NG production slots (which is one of the reasons it exercised 10 of its put options).

That's not to say that DL isn't satisfied with the 739. While we don't know the full narrative, the fact that DL kept adding to its 321CEO orders even when Boeing would've met or beat Airbus' price, makes the narrative the DL loves the 739 and was willing to pay a premium for it false.


You can't say its likely not true. DL still exercised options when they could have ordered 321s then, too. DL may have decided the A321 later for different missions. Put another way, just because DL later ordered A321s does NOT mean DL didn't seek out the 737-900ER or that it wasn't the right plane for the mission/value.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:53 pm

Also should add there was the whole thing about DL dangling the carrot of additional 739 order along with the E190s, for the pilots to accept a new contract. The pilots voted down the iniital contract, DL "cancelled" the order", and after ratifying a new contract and the pilots calling their bluff the top-off order for additional 739s came back.

Then the whole C-Series fiasco and Boeing getting in the mix with the trade dispute matter. Then DL shaming Boeing directly and indirectly in public forums, and there was no more end-of-the-line 739s.....you can read what you want into that matter.

The short answer is, DL is trying to upgauge as much of its domestic network as feasible. Basically, moving away from the 150-160 seat frames and going toward 180-200.
Look at ATL, the majority of its domestic ops basically just runs on B739, A321, B752s and pumps the volume through the hub.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:53 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
It is disingenuous to say DL didn't "actively seek out" the aircraft. If it was an opportunistic buy, DL *wanted* the aircraft. It bought 130 of them, far more than the value of the 788s (which were subject to major delays by Boeing, not only DL). If we exclude airlines ordering new models because of negotiating from old orders, a lot of airlines didn't "actively" seek out those aircraft.


No, DL was seeking to place a large order of at least 100 frames (likely to maximize its discount) for either the 739 or 321. The 739 wasn't a 787 replacement order -- the 787 order stayed on the books for 6+ more years. But because the 787 did not meet certain performance requirements set forth in its contract with NW, DL (the successor to NW) was owed compensation, and that compensation was rolled into the 739's price.

If you search the forums, you will see where credible sources reported / reports of credible sources reporting that DL initially choose the 321, before changing to the 739 at the 11th hour after receiving a deal it couldn't refuse. Delta ordered 100 + 40 options. They initially exercised the 40 options, cancelled it during a pilots' squabble, then exercised half the amount. Boeing exercised 10 of its put options to bring the total to 130. Meanwhile, multiple 321CEO orders were placed bringing that type's total to 127.

Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.


Where did I comment on DL paying a premium? No where. I never made such a statement. Rather, I said it is a false narrative to say DL was forced into the 737-900ER.

Further, as PSU mentions above, you are putting FAR too much emphasis on the A321 order, given the very sour Boeing-DL relationship at the time due to the C Series.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:55 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.

No one has claimed that. To be clear we don’t know how much of a premium DL is willing to pay for A321s over the 739 either. I’m sure there is some, but the A321 is also a slightly larger and more capable aircraft.

For the Max vs Neo word is it mostly came down to engines (PW willing to give DL engine work, CFM not), not any clear preference for A321 over 739.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:02 pm

The A321 should be put into context, again going back to the 2011 RFP.
DL was allegedly leaning toward the A321 then. They had a proposal from Airbus.
At the time Boeing was a bit more aggressive at trying to fill end-of-the-line 737NG production slots versus where Airbus was in the 2011 timeframe.

Revisiting the Airbus proposal was a no-brainer and inevitable.
A couple of other factors were to be considered to as DL always had a desire to scale up the footprint of its A320-series fleet. Like it did with the B739, it grew the scale upward of over 200 737NGs. PMNW had the A319 & A320s at ~120 frames, and an A321 order scaled that up over 200 frames as well.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:05 pm

Polot wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.

No one has claimed that. To be clear we don’t know how much of a premium DL is willing to pay for A321s over the 739 either. I’m sure there is some, but the A321 is also a slightly larger and more capable aircraft.

For the Max vs Neo word is it mostly came down to engines (PW willing to give DL engine work, CFM not), not any clear preference for A321 over 739.

In my opinion, engine work, in particular being allowed to develop repairs, will determine if DL ever orders the MAX.

DL has little preference or loyalty. It seems they put in the cost/benefit into a spreadsheet and negotiate/decide from there.

They seem to be, in my opinion, going to a simpler fleet. So existing or heavily related aircraft types will be preferred.

This 739 purchase sounds like a plausible match up. I bet they would buy CFM powered A321s for the right price.

Lightsaber
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:13 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
You can't say its likely not true. DL still exercised options when they could have ordered 321s then, too. DL may have decided the A321 later for different missions. Put another way, just because DL later ordered A321s does NOT mean DL didn't seek out the 737-900ER or that it wasn't the right plane for the mission/value.


No, I believe the narrative that was presented a decade ago, at the time of the order, that DL was leaning toward the 321 but choose the 739 after Boeing offered a deal DL couldn't refuse (that again was largely based upon the 787 penalties owed to DL). I believe this narratively solely because it originated / was confirmed by people with credibility.

The 739 and 321's missions have largely been interchangeable. I'm certain DL's pleased with both types, and would be willing to take on any late-model, second-hand bulk 739ER and/or 321CEO that made financial sense.

Further, as PSU mentions above, you are putting FAR too much emphasis on the A321 order, given the very sour Boeing-DL relationship at the time due to the C Series.


That's incorrect. Their relationship may have been stressed (not soured), but that was AFTER they ordered the C-Series... which was ordered alongside the 321. So, it didn't factor into the 321's purchase. Which occurred at the same time Boeing was seeking to fill 737NG productions slots.

Where did I comment on DL paying a premium? No where. I never made such a statement. Rather, I said it is a false narrative to say DL was forced into the 737-900ER.


The comment wasn't directed toward you.

Polot wrote:
No one has claimed that. To be clear we don’t know how much of a premium DL is willing to pay for A321s over the 739 either.


sxf24 wrote:
Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:20 pm

The thing I was always curious about in hindsight was the timing of the RFP, is where did the FL/WN 717 situation come into play?
The RFP went out in 2011. DL announced the 100-order for 739 in Aug. 2011 and the 717 deal was announced in July 2012.
Boeing was a player involved in that deal.

I always wondered if the 717 came to light then. The WN/FL merger was announced in 2010 and officially closed in May 2011.
Speculation to wonder if Boeing knew at that time that WN wanted out of the 717s and there was some deal in principle in the RFP discussions that came out then but took until 2012 to either resolve or coordinate with the various moving pieces.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:34 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The thing I was always curious about in hindsight was the timing of the RFP, is where did the FL/WN 717 situation come into play?
The RFP went out in 2011. DL announced the 100-order for 739 in Aug. 2011 and the 717 deal was announced in July 2012.
Boeing was a player involved in that deal.

I always wondered if the 717 came to light then. The WN/FL merger was announced in 2010 and officially closed in May 2011.
Speculation to wonder if Boeing knew at that time that WN wanted out of the 717s and there was some deal in principle in the RFP discussions that came out then but took until 2012 to either resolve or coordinate with the various moving pieces.


It’s unlikely to have impacted the 739 order/decision. WN aggressively shopped the 717 fleet. DL was a late player, and required a heavy subsidy (the full extent is questionable). Nor did DL and the (D)ALPA reach a deal until mid-2012, that made the 717 acquisition possible.
 
Jetport
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:47 pm

Polot wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.

No one has claimed that. To be clear we don’t know how much of a premium DL is willing to pay for A321s over the 739 either. I’m sure there is some, but the A321 is also a slightly larger and more capable aircraft.

For the Max vs Neo word is it mostly came down to engines (PW willing to give DL engine work, CFM not), not any clear preference for A321 over 739.


In range and overhead bins Delta's A321CEO's sure aren't more capable than 739's. Delta bought the range limited no extra fuel tank A321CEO's and also for some crazy reason bought a least some of them with bins that can't take a carry on dragger on end. Airbus must have cut Delta quite a deal to sell them these limited (stripper base models :lol: ) A321CEO's.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:12 pm

Jetport wrote:
Polot wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again, I'm certain DL's satisfied with the 739, but the narrative that they loved the aircraft to the point of paying a premium for it over the 321 is almost unquestionably false.

No one has claimed that. To be clear we don’t know how much of a premium DL is willing to pay for A321s over the 739 either. I’m sure there is some, but the A321 is also a slightly larger and more capable aircraft.

For the Max vs Neo word is it mostly came down to engines (PW willing to give DL engine work, CFM not), not any clear preference for A321 over 739.


In range and overhead bins Delta's A321CEO's sure aren't more capable than 739's. Delta bought the range limited no extra fuel tank A321CEO's and also for some crazy reason bought a least some of them with bins that can't take a carry on dragger on end. Airbus must have cut Delta quite a deal to sell them these limited (stripper base models :lol: ) A321CEO's.

In terms of the bins they were suppose to hold the carryons on end, and were initially advertised (and had placards onboard iirc) as such. For reasons God only knows when designing, developing, and testing the product apparently the vendor didn’t see it a priority to make sure you could close and latch the bins with the bags in that orientation though. It was something nobody noticed until the jet entered service.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:12 pm

Jetport wrote:
In range and overhead bins Delta's A321CEO's sure aren't more capable than 739's. Delta bought the range limited no extra fuel tank A321CEO's and also for some crazy reason bought a least some of them with bins that can't take a carry on dragger on end. Airbus must have cut Delta quite a deal to sell them these limited (stripper base models :lol: ) A321CEO's.


...probably because DL valued capacity over range (the A321 have 192 seats vs. 180 on the B739). The A321 are now far more common than the B739 and B757 on most flights over 3 hours from the interior hubs. No sense in buying a tanked, capacity-restricted A321 for a handful of flights when there's sufficient B739 (and B757) in the fleet.
 
N649DL
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:07 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The B739 order for the initial 100 was at the conclusion of an RFP process that included all of the OEMs.
They didn't just "fall into" the 739. DL solicited proposals in 2011 from all the OEMs and obviously at the time

This is actually an interesting read, 10 years later.....
https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... dies-43675


This article pretty much sums it up. 10-years ago, DL was on the hook to replace D95s, old 757, and A230s as they had (on average) an old fleet age many of which stemmed from NW which were still in service. No idea of how the maintenance Best Practices were on keeping these planes alive, but either way NW had the skill set. Despite new interiors, DL seemed anxious to ditch the D95s quickly in favor of 2nd hand M90s and 717s. The A320s and 757s less so, especially since quite a few which were planned were retirement are still around today.

Then they went strategically with a different approach a few years later. They essentially found a vendor (I want to say between 2015-2016) to do extensive retrofitting and checks of many A319, A320s and 757s while what seemed like taking NW's Best Practice MX approach (old aircraft / new interiors). They also acquired & kept the 2nd hand 717s & M90s and at the same time continued new 739ER & A321 deliveries. What it seemed like Pre-COVID that DL was trying to do was shore up the new 739ER & A321 deliveries to keep the MX and fleet age down while getting rid of the M88 & M90s at the same time.

Still no idea as to why DL scrapped the 788 order, but I think at the time UA was having a lot of issues with them with regards to battery issues. Either way, it seems like DL is in favor of large widebody fleets (EG: 763, A333 etc.) instead of sub-fleets such as the 777.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:15 pm

Lootess wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.



I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).


Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


They didn't actively seek out the 739ER, it was an opportunistic buy. Plus it wasn't that long after they reached a settlement on the 788s, even if they removed their place as a US launch customer.


There was a RFP. Sounds like actively seeking out to me.
WidebodyPTV wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Delta absolutely sought out the 737-900ER. While they got a good price, based on what they’ve financed with lessors, it was not the lowest price available.

I know it’s hard to accept, but most airlines buy Boeing aircraft because it is the right plane for the mission and delivers value. It’s the same reason they also buy Airbus.


That's most likely not true. We know that DL evaluated both the 739 and 321. At the time, sources indicated that a 321 order was imminent, but at the 11th hour, Boeing gave DL an offer it couldn't refuse (largely based upon 787 performance penalties owed to DL via NW). Ultimately, DL exercised only 20 of its 40 options, but placed multiple A321CEO orders totaling 127 aircraft (nearly equal to the B739's total). The 321CEO orders kept coming, even as Boeing was desperate to fill 737NG production slots (which is one of the reasons it exercised 10 of its put options).

That's not to say that DL isn't satisfied with the 739. While we don't know the full narrative, the fact that DL kept adding to its 321CEO orders even when Boeing would've met or beat Airbus' price, makes the narrative the DL loves the 739 and was willing to pay a premium for it false.


Every winning offer to Delta comes at "the 11th hour." When there's a competition, they literally bring the OEMs to a hotel in Atlanta, stick them in different conference rooms and go back-and-forth until they get the best possible offer. Boeing won several rounds and Airbus won others.

Both the A321 and 737-900ER are capable airplanes that serve slightly different missions at Delta well. I guarantee they're not paying a premium for either aircraft.
 
Lootess
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:57 pm

The fact of the matter is the 788 compensation came into play with the 739ER order. Companies put RFPs up all the time but they may have a vendor of choice already, where fleet management may have made presentations to the board on what will likely fit the mission of the order. So it comes down to shareholder diligence, and sometimes squeezing out an 11th hour deal.

Richard was sure adamant about not taking those early 788 models as NW was going to get them before UA, and moved to the end of the line at the time before squashing the order.

Ironically he had no problem becoming an A339 launch customer.
 
papatango
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:03 am

Where is Delta going to get these supposed aircraft?
 
Speedy752
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Also should add there was the whole thing about DL dangling the carrot of additional 739 order along with the E190s, for the pilots to accept a new contract. The pilots voted down the iniital contract, DL "cancelled" the order", and after ratifying a new contract and the pilots calling their bluff the top-off order for additional 739s came back.

Then the whole C-Series fiasco and Boeing getting in the mix with the trade dispute matter. Then DL shaming Boeing directly and indirectly in public forums, and there was no more end-of-the-line 739s.....you can read what you want into that matter.

The short answer is, DL is trying to upgauge as much of its domestic network as feasible. Basically, moving away from the 150-160 seat frames and going toward 180-200.
Look at ATL, the majority of its domestic ops basically just runs on B739, A321, B752s and pumps the volume through the hub.


I realized how streamlined it’s become in my many recent trips from ATL. Every gate is a 739, 752, 321 or 717. Same in taxi/takeoff lines, I am not sure if it’s my timing or if certain fleets are at certain airports but the 320, 319 and 738 seem to be rare in ATL. I was starting to wonder how they would replace the lost capacity of the MD retirements since demand came back so quick and so strong. I’m hoping these all meet the 739 standard for sky interior and IFE when they arrive, with all their planes being standardized now it would be a blow to go backward
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:48 am

Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??
 
Speedy752
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:58 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??


Start? That’s sort of their hallmark. And orphaned fleets like the MD90s. They will likely buy any 737-900ER that comes to market because they’re already one of the largest operators, and the variant has been unpopular with others.

It’s also the fact that they couldn’t get capacity that fast any other way. Add to it that the pandemic loans didn’t disappear and it’s a prudent move, not a desperate one.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:05 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??

What's wrong with aircraft that might be ten years old? All of the major, Western, market finance-driven carriers fly such aircraft.
 
NLINK
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:08 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??



Fiscally responsible is a better term which is better for the shareholders. DL does't need to be in debt up to its eyeballs like one major is by having the latest and greatest.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:25 am

Speedy752 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??


Start? That’s sort of their hallmark. And orphaned fleets like the MD90s. They will likely buy any 737-900ER that comes to market because they’re already one of the largest operators, and the variant has been unpopular with others.

It’s also the fact that they couldn’t get capacity that fast any other way. Add to it that the pandemic loans didn’t disappear and it’s a prudent move, not a desperate one.

On top of that, they also has a habit of buying used airframe for parts purpose, they have bought MD-80, MD-90, B744 and B772 and I am sure few other models for parts salvage.

Actually, not only Delta is buying used airframes. Southwest and United have added bucketloads of B737NG from various sources, UA added many used A319/A320 too recently. Allegaint are known to buy used airframes. Low acquisition cost helps the company saves $$ and these used airframes have shorter lead time to induct into service compared to waiting for a new one from production lines. Hence, mass expansion can be done in short time period. For the US mainline carriers, all of them have taken in used airframes, except American Airlines which I think their current fleet are almost all new, from merger with US Airways days and from Airbus.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:34 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Speedy752 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
Are things so bad economically at Delta that they need to start buying used aircraft??


Start? That’s sort of their hallmark. And orphaned fleets like the MD90s. They will likely buy any 737-900ER that comes to market because they’re already one of the largest operators, and the variant has been unpopular with others.

It’s also the fact that they couldn’t get capacity that fast any other way. Add to it that the pandemic loans didn’t disappear and it’s a prudent move, not a desperate one.

On top of that, they also has a habit of buying used airframe for parts purpose, they have bought MD-80, MD-90, B744 and B772 and I am sure few other models for parts salvage.

Actually, not only Delta is buying used airframes. Southwest and United have added bucketloads of B737NG from various sources, UA added many used A319/A320 too recently. Allegaint are known to buy used airframes. Low acquisition cost helps the company saves $$ and these used airframes have shorter lead time to induct into service compared to waiting for a new one from production lines. Hence, mass expansion can be done in short time period. For the US mainline carriers, all of them have taken in used airframes, except American Airlines which I think their current fleet are almost all new, from merger with US Airways days and from Airbus.


AA got at least ten 319s from Frontier.
 
NZ321
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:34 am

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
US airlines like all-rounders too. The reason EU has less split fleets is because European airline’s are generally much smaller than US airlines. It’s only when you look at the entire collective groups (eg LH group, AF/KLM/IAG etc) that the fleet sizes approach parity. LH (the airline) for example has only about 190 narrow bodies in their mainline fleet…Delta has about 650.

UA, for example, has zero A321s and only a limited domestic 757 operation yet has very few domestic routes that a 739 can’t do (and most of the ones 739s can’t do would be a struggle for the A321 as well).


Exactly so there was never really a chance for 739s in Europe just due to the design deficits and the market dynamics. The 739 did not bring any benefits to the 737 operators in Europe only drawbacks. Almost no flag carrier is operating 737s out of their main hub (besides KLM), but we have a lot of LCC/ULCCs that use it and the size of the 739 did not bring any benefits (it was too small, the extra seats would only increase the FA limit).

In the US, where the seat for First is way more premium, the 739 size made sense, everywhere else not. Combined with the take off performance issues it was just not a good aircraft.

I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance.

The reality is most European legacies made their narrow body fleet decisions before the 739 and A321 were even in existence (in some cases before the 737NG was even on the table). They did not specifically choose the A320 family because of the A321 and how it compared to 739. The greater size differential between the A321 and A320 (and greater overall size of the A321) makes the A321 more attractive for the ULCCs versus the 739 for 738 operators like Ryanair. Take off performance had little to do with the plane’s lack of sales success in the region.


"I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance" - what do you mean by this statement?. I presume you mean "world" not "word" as you typed; second are you implying the size of the A321 in the same category is also an issue for most of the world? Please clarify your comment on size. :)
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:38 am

NZ321 wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Exactly so there was never really a chance for 739s in Europe just due to the design deficits and the market dynamics. The 739 did not bring any benefits to the 737 operators in Europe only drawbacks. Almost no flag carrier is operating 737s out of their main hub (besides KLM), but we have a lot of LCC/ULCCs that use it and the size of the 739 did not bring any benefits (it was too small, the extra seats would only increase the FA limit).

In the US, where the seat for First is way more premium, the 739 size made sense, everywhere else not. Combined with the take off performance issues it was just not a good aircraft.

I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance.

The reality is most European legacies made their narrow body fleet decisions before the 739 and A321 were even in existence (in some cases before the 737NG was even on the table). They did not specifically choose the A320 family because of the A321 and how it compared to 739. The greater size differential between the A321 and A320 (and greater overall size of the A321) makes the A321 more attractive for the ULCCs versus the 739 for 738 operators like Ryanair. Take off performance had little to do with the plane’s lack of sales success in the region.


"I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance" - what do you mean by this statement?. I presume you mean "world" not "word" as you typed; second are you implying the size of the A321 in the same category is also an issue for most of the world? Please clarify your comment on size. :)

I meant world, word was a typo.

The A321 is larger than the 739, and the difference in size between the A321 and A320 is larger than between the 739 and 738 (which, remember, is also slightly larger than the A320). It is easier to justify adding the A321 to A320 fleets vs adding 739s over more 738s as you have a greater step change in capacity justifying the addition of another FA.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1346
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:20 pm

Polot wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Polot wrote:
I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance.

The reality is most European legacies made their narrow body fleet decisions before the 739 and A321 were even in existence (in some cases before the 737NG was even on the table). They did not specifically choose the A320 family because of the A321 and how it compared to 739. The greater size differential between the A321 and A320 (and greater overall size of the A321) makes the A321 more attractive for the ULCCs versus the 739 for 738 operators like Ryanair. Take off performance had little to do with the plane’s lack of sales success in the region.


"I agree the size of the 739 is an issue for most of the word, but that is different from takeoff performance" - what do you mean by this statement?. I presume you mean "world" not "word" as you typed; second are you implying the size of the A321 in the same category is also an issue for most of the world? Please clarify your comment on size. :)

I meant world, word was a typo.

The A321 is larger than the 739, and the difference in size between the A321 and A320 is larger than between the 739 and 738 (which, remember, is also slightly larger than the A320). It is easier to justify adding the A321 to A320 fleets vs adding 739s over more 738s as you have a greater step change in capacity justifying the addition of another FA.


That is not how airlines think.
 
FF630
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:17 pm

In range and overhead bins Delta's A321CEO's sure aren't more capable than 739's. Delta bought the range limited no extra fuel tank A321CEO's and also for some crazy reason bought a least some of them with bins that can't take a carry on dragger on end. Airbus must have cut Delta quite a deal to sell them these limited (stripper base models :lol: ) A321CEO's.

The bins I the 321's are terrible, DAL must have bought the stripped down model. Can't believe Delta overlooked the bins, someone was "asleep at the wheel" in procurement. I have commented to FA's when on 321's, they roll their eyes. Creates a lot of frustration for the crew.
 
Speedy752
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:45 am

FF630 wrote:
In range and overhead bins Delta's A321CEO's sure aren't more capable than 739's. Delta bought the range limited no extra fuel tank A321CEO's and also for some crazy reason bought a least some of them with bins that can't take a carry on dragger on end. Airbus must have cut Delta quite a deal to sell them these limited (stripper base models :lol: ) A321CEO's.

The bins I the 321's are terrible, DAL must have bought the stripped down model. Can't believe Delta overlooked the bins, someone was "asleep at the wheel" in procurement. I have commented to FA's when on 321's, they roll their eyes. Creates a lot of frustration for the crew.


And passengers, the boarding process for a 321 takes forever and a day. And half the time people logically think the bags go sideways like almost every other delta plane but nope. Their refurb a320s and a319s are much better for this, as well as visual appeal of the PSU. And since were talking Airbus, isn’t it “asleep at the side stick”? Lol
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:56 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Speedy752 wrote:

Start? That’s sort of their hallmark. And orphaned fleets like the MD90s. They will likely buy any 737-900ER that comes to market because they’re already one of the largest operators, and the variant has been unpopular with others.

It’s also the fact that they couldn’t get capacity that fast any other way. Add to it that the pandemic loans didn’t disappear and it’s a prudent move, not a desperate one.

On top of that, they also has a habit of buying used airframe for parts purpose, they have bought MD-80, MD-90, B744 and B772 and I am sure few other models for parts salvage.

Actually, not only Delta is buying used airframes. Southwest and United have added bucketloads of B737NG from various sources, UA added many used A319/A320 too recently. Allegaint are known to buy used airframes. Low acquisition cost helps the company saves $$ and these used airframes have shorter lead time to induct into service compared to waiting for a new one from production lines. Hence, mass expansion can be done in short time period. For the US mainline carriers, all of them have taken in used airframes, except American Airlines which I think their current fleet are almost all new, from merger with US Airways days and from Airbus.


AA got at least ten 319s from Frontier.

Thank you for this information. I wasn't aware of this addition.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:06 am

The bin situation on the A321s was fixed on the second half of the deliveries with different style bins, but yes the bin issue is annoying for the first ~50 A321s.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 741
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:35 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
On top of that, they also has a habit of buying used airframe for parts purpose, they have bought MD-80, MD-90, B744 and B772 and I am sure few other models for parts salvage.

Actually, not only Delta is buying used airframes. Southwest and United have added bucketloads of B737NG from various sources, UA added many used A319/A320 too recently. Allegaint are known to buy used airframes. Low acquisition cost helps the company saves $$ and these used airframes have shorter lead time to induct into service compared to waiting for a new one from production lines. Hence, mass expansion can be done in short time period. For the US mainline carriers, all of them have taken in used airframes, except American Airlines which I think their current fleet are almost all new, from merger with US Airways days and from Airbus.


AA got at least ten 319s from Frontier.

Thank you for this information. I wasn't aware of this addition.


My pleasure!
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2150
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:49 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The bin situation on the A321s was fixed on the second half of the deliveries with different style bins, but yes the bin issue is annoying for the first ~50 A321s.


I’m pretty certain all DL’s A321s have the same design pivot bins, like HA’s neo, they are the A350 style cabin concept (not sure Airbus marketing terminology). Are you saying some A321s have a larger overhead?
 
timf
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:00 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The bin situation on the A321s was fixed on the second half of the deliveries with different style bins, but yes the bin issue is annoying for the first ~50 A321s.


I’m pretty certain all DL’s A321s have the same design pivot bins, like HA’s neo, they are the A350 style cabin concept (not sure Airbus marketing terminology). Are you saying some A321s have a larger overhead?

Agreed, I haven't noticed any difference between the bins on the older and newer A321s - all of them are equally small. I believe Delta was the launch customer for this style bin, which was promised to have more space than older style bins but did not deliver. Delta did put out a press release last year about switching bin styles on new deliveries, but I haven't seen any evidence of A321CEOs with updated bins and they might have just been referring to the style of the upcoming A321NEOs.

Maybe you are thinking of the 737-900ERs, which did start out with smaller pivot bins and changed to bigger pivot bins around the 50th delivery.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:07 pm

Yep.....that's right it was the B739 that they cutover to a bigger bin mid-order, not the A321s.
 
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Boeing757100
Posts: 768
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm

papatango wrote:
Where is Delta going to get these supposed aircraft?


That is anybody's guess... I'd say within 5 years they should be ready, but someone with a better guess could say.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:27 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Not surprised and there are likely 737s around. Where are the used 350s from? United? :rotfl: (j/k)


LATAM just got rid of all of theirs, so that'd make sense.


Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1406
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:47 pm

oldJoe wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Not surprised and there are likely 737s around. Where are the used 350s from? United? :rotfl: (j/k)


LATAM just got rid of all of theirs, so that'd make sense.


Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv


Looks like it is A350-900 registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:
Last edited by NWAROOSTER on Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
timf
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:48 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

LATAM just got rid of all of theirs, so that'd make sense.


Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv


Looks like it is registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:

Delta reserved a total of 13 N-Numbers in the range N570DZ-N582DZ on Monday. Read into that what you will.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:15 pm

timf wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv


Looks like it is registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:

Delta reserved a total of 13 N-Numbers in the range N570DZ-N582DZ on Monday. Read into that what you will.


What a coincidence, 13 reserved N numbers and 13 parked A350s from LATAM :idea:
 
papatango
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:34 pm

First of how many more?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:40 pm

papatango wrote:
First of how many more?


Well per the posts directly above yours, 12 more.
 
panamair
Posts: 4475
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:43 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

LATAM just got rid of all of theirs, so that'd make sense.


Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv


Looks like it is A350-900 registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:


Yup, looks like it's MSN 282 (former LatAm PR-XTK)
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:58 pm

will this be a 280T bird?

panamair wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

Look at the last entry from this link, especially the date !

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a350-900-n575dz-delta-air-lines/egzvkv


Looks like it is A350-900 registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:


Yup, looks like it's MSN 282 (former LatAm PR-XTK)
 
timf
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:52 pm

Assigning N575DZ to PR-XTK indicates Delta is leasing the 7 former LATAM A350s owned by AerCap. The other aircraft would be PR-XTE, PR-XTF, PR-XTH, PR-XTI, PR-XTJ, and PR-XTL. Of the remaining LATAM aircraft, there are 2 owned by Wilmington Trust Corporation (PR-XTA and PR-XTB), and 4 owned by LATAM (presumably the 4 Delta was originally supposed to take but backed out of: PR-XTC, PR-XTD, PR-XTG, and PR-XTM). Based on the sequencing, it appears Delta only has an agreement for the first 7 but may pursue the others.
 
papatango
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:08 pm

Is it possible Delta will take all 13 ex Latam a350s?
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:51 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
will this be a 280T bird?

panamair wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:

Looks like it is A350-900 registered as N575DZ leased from Are Gap on June 22, 2021 by Delta Airlines per plane spotters. :old:


Yup, looks like it's MSN 282 (former LatAm PR-XTK)


So I googled and the internets say yes, they’re 280 mtow planes. This is on the OneWorld fleets page: https://oneworldvirtual.org/fleet/model ... s-a350-941
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:36 pm

tlecam wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
will this be a 280T bird?

panamair wrote:

Yup, looks like it's MSN 282 (former LatAm PR-XTK)


So I googled and the internets say yes, they’re 280 mtow planes. This is on the OneWorld fleets page: https://oneworldvirtual.org/fleet/model ... s-a350-941


That website is using incorrect, generalized information. The 280 MTOW was an increase in A350 MTOW, apparently starting only in 2020 (someone may have a more recent article identifying the year). https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/30/airbu ... ge-8100nm/. LATAM has older aircraft so they would not be 280 birds.
 
ILikeTrains
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:12 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
will this be a 280T bird?



So I googled and the internets say yes, they’re 280 mtow planes. This is on the OneWorld fleets page: https://oneworldvirtual.org/fleet/model ... s-a350-941


That website is using incorrect, generalized information. The 280 MTOW was an increase in A350 MTOW, apparently starting only in 2020 (someone may have a more recent article identifying the year). https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/30/airbu ... ge-8100nm/. LATAM has older aircraft so they would not be 280 birds.


Iberia took the first A359 with the wing twist, which
I believe was also when 280T was first offered on non-ULR birds. L/N 219 delivered in June 2018.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:20 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
tlecam wrote:

So I googled and the internets say yes, they’re 280 mtow planes. This is on the OneWorld fleets page: https://oneworldvirtual.org/fleet/model ... s-a350-941


That website is using incorrect, generalized information. The 280 MTOW was an increase in A350 MTOW, apparently starting only in 2020 (someone may have a more recent article identifying the year). https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/30/airbu ... ge-8100nm/. LATAM has older aircraft so they would not be 280 birds.


Iberia took the first A359 with the wing twist, which
I believe was also when 280T was first offered on non-ULR birds. L/N 219 delivered in June 2018.


Great thanks! Were all birds post L/N 219 with 280, or just some?
 
dalmit
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:18 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Great thanks! Were all birds post L/N 219 with 280, or just some?


4 of the 7 Aercap frames are post L/N 219 including the one that was just registered by Delta as N575DZ.

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