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jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:32 am

dalmit wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Great thanks! Were all birds post L/N 219 with 280, or just some?


4 of the 7 Aercap frames are post L/N 219 including the one that was just registered by Delta as N575DZ.


Thanks. I guess the ultimate question I have is are all post 219 frames 280 / are these frames 280? Or is it just some frames.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:12 am

LAX772LR wrote:
GlobalAirways wrote:
Sounds like Delta...

Not really, considering how ridiculously this site exaggerates their penchant for used aircraft.

For example: DL hasn't acquired a used widebody (for service) in more than a quarter century.....but listening here, you'd think it was something they do any given year.


And you insisted that I was wrong in the CPT thread about them not acquiring these frames, yet here we see Delta IS acquiring these Latam A350s.

Regardless, it looks as though they're going to take all 13 planes. Will the 777 interiors/seats fit in these A350s, or will they have to get all new seats? I imagine it would take some time to 13 shipsets of seats.

I'd say delivery would be early 2022 if everything lined up perfectly.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:36 am

Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).
 
inkjet7
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:13 am

Polot wrote:
KLM in fact has regularly flown the 739 to at least one of those airports (LIN).

But KLM has five 737-900's. Not ER's. Only difference with their -800's is they have extra legroom in more rows.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:35 am

Well, kudos to DL for getting these birds. I wondered how they were going to backfill the 777 losses……well done
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 14301
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:59 am

777Mech wrote:
And you insisted that I was wrong in the CPT thread about them not acquiring these frames, yet here we see Delta IS acquiring these Latam A350s.

At that point you were, seeing as they didn't make a move for these frames until two days ago (June 22, according to their FAA reg), and had made no public announcement contradicting their rejection of the used frames even then.


ILikeTrains wrote:
Iberia took the first A359 with the wing twist, which
I believe was also when 280T was first offered on non-ULR birds. L/N 219 delivered in June 2018.

IB took first delivery of a 280T model, though as you mentioned, it was L/N219. The first 280T model produced was L/N216 (an SQ -ULR)
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3893
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:23 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


Why would they have to down gage. The Delta A359 averages 10 more seats at 306 than their 777-200/200ER did. in a similar configure when they went to the new suites the 777 dropped to 288 vs the older 296 if they add the delta plus seating they would drop 9 seats more on the A350's leaving 297 seats vs the 77 with 288. Thats not a down gage.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:36 am

rbavfan wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


Why would they have to down gage. The Delta A359 averages 10 more seats at 306 than their 777-200/200ER did. in a similar configure when they went to the new suites the 777 dropped to 288 vs the older 296 if they add the delta plus seating they would drop 9 seats more on the A350's leaving 297 seats vs the 77 with 288. Thats not a down gage.


I meant that as in I'm not sure their fleet will have 18 more A350s than it did in March last year. And presumable the ultra long haul routes + BJS/PVG/ICN/HND will need the legs of the A350 so probably the European routes will have to downgauge to an A330 (until they receive more A350s).
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20190
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:50 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


Why would they have to down gage. The Delta A359 averages 10 more seats at 306 than their 777-200/200ER did. in a similar configure when they went to the new suites the 777 dropped to 288 vs the older 296 if they add the delta plus seating they would drop 9 seats more on the A350's leaving 297 seats vs the 77 with 288. Thats not a down gage.


I meant that as in I'm not sure their fleet will have 18 more A350s than it did in March last year. And presumable the ultra long haul routes + BJS/PVG/ICN/HND will need the legs of the A350 so probably the European routes will have to downgauge to an A330 (until they receive more A350s).


It seems DL has already acquired additional A350s per this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1461847
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10169
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:53 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


You haven't addressed the 767 retirements. Seven A350s here, and the 330neos and A350s on order, might come close to seat miles but they won't cover flight hours or frequencies.
 
CX747
Posts: 6700
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:56 am

Looks like they have scooped up some young viable A350s. Now we shall see if the 737 portion of the rumor is correct.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:00 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


You haven't addressed the 767 retirements. Seven A350s here, and the 330neos and A350s on order, might come close to seat miles but they won't cover flight hours or frequencies.


Very true regarding the 767, I'm not sure how many were retired though. Didn't they announced they'd get Y+ ?

On a side thought, I doubt the China routes will go back to 2019 frequencies for another year at least so that should give them some slack. HND probably will because of the slots and because Japan will swing its doors open to the US soon enough. Korea should open up soon (actually borders are open to Americans, but you need to quarantine), the question is, will the rest of Southeast Asia do so too.

On the Europe side, once the borders open it's going to be business as usual pretty quickly I reckon.
 
FlyHPN
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:15 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

Why would they have to down gage. The Delta A359 averages 10 more seats at 306 than their 777-200/200ER did. in a similar configure when they went to the new suites the 777 dropped to 288 vs the older 296 if they add the delta plus seating they would drop 9 seats more on the A350's leaving 297 seats vs the 77 with 288. Thats not a down gage.


I meant that as in I'm not sure their fleet will have 18 more A350s than it did in March last year. And presumable the ultra long haul routes + BJS/PVG/ICN/HND will need the legs of the A350 so probably the European routes will have to downgauge to an A330 (until they receive more A350s).


It seems DL has already acquired additional A350s per this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1461847


That’s a link to this thread…
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:25 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Well here I was wondering how DL would be able to plug the hole in their fleet that was filled by the 777.
This, coupled with deliveries that happened during the past year or so, should allow them to operate their pre-covid network (they might have to downgauge some CDG/AMS flights that were on the 777).


You haven't addressed the 767 retirements. Seven A350s here, and the 330neos and A350s on order, might come close to seat miles but they won't cover flight hours or frequencies.


Very true regarding the 767, I'm not sure how many were retired though. Didn't they announced they'd get Y+ ?

On a side thought, I doubt the China routes will go back to 2019 frequencies for another year at least so that should give them some slack. HND probably will because of the slots and because Japan will swing its doors open to the US soon enough. Korea should open up soon (actually borders are open to Americans, but you need to quarantine), the question is, will the rest of Southeast Asia do so too.

On the Europe side, once the borders open it's going to be business as usual pretty quickly I reckon.


IIRC, the 763 are getting premium economy, but no updates to business class. Presumably, DL feels the seats can generate enough revenue in the short-term to justify their cost.

But no, it's not going to be business as usual pretty quickly. Long-haul flights disproportionately rely on premium demand for success; that demand is essentially non-existent at the moment -> the industry accepts that some of that demand will never return, and there's plenty of uncertainty as to how long it'll take for the demand that will return.. to return. DL's one of the more bullish airlines, but even they expect premium demand to reach 80%-90% of 2019 levels... hence why the 763 will be and the 777 were prematurely retired.

Even prior to COVID, DL was upgauging the 763 to larger aircraft (and there were credible rumors that DL was seeking to sell some of its late model frames to freighters, which ultimately happened during COVID). There were always bound to be some flights that simply wouldn't make the cut. Most of the industry long ago moved away from low-density long-haul aircraft, and DL was likely to follow, especially as swelling labor costs made such unattractive.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:53 pm

Here was DL's Pre-COVID widebody fleet plan (based on YE2019 10-K and planned deliveries & retirements).

Pre-COVID
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE2022
B763 226 58 56 56 56 56
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 11 22 30
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 17 19 19
B77E/L 290 18 18 18 18 18
WB FLEET 150 154 165 178 186
:
Here is the revised fleet plan as of YE2020 10-K based on planned deliveries and retirements:
Post-COVID:
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE 2022
B763 226 58 56 34 32 32 (estimated to be between 28-32 frames)
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 8 11 19
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 15 15 17
B77E/L 290 18 18 0 0 0
WB FLEET 150 154 120 121 131

Pre-Covid, DL was at 150-154 widebodies with plans to grow the fleet to approaching 180 frames by end of 2022.
At year-end 2020 the widebody fleet was at 120 frames and going to be flat in 2021 and grow from there as A339 & A359 deliveries will be offset by B763 retirements.
B763 retirements are to act as the buffer / flex fleet with full retirement of the remaining 32-34 frames planned by December 2025.
I believe it was posted on here elsewhere that about ~17-18 of the 763s are going to get the "76K" / Y+ mod, which indicates to me those are probably the "survivor" frames that make it through 2025, while the other 12-13 frames will phase out before then.

That being said, with that post-covid baseline, at YE2022, DL was still going to be ~20 widebodies fewer than 2019 and ~50 less than their pre-COVID plan. Disclaimer being that there was probably going to be some 763 retirements in the pre-COVID plan where appropriate (e.g., the selling of of some as freighters, parking as they reached heavy maintenance). DL had never publically put a phase-out for the 763 out there pre-COVID but most of us assumed it was going to start phasing frames out after peak summer 2022 or 2023 and a possible full retirement in the 2027-2028 timeframe.

Since Feb, DL has taken the following actions:
- Moved-up delivery of 1 A339 into 2022
- Moved-up delivery of 2 A359 into 2022

Thus YE2022 is now at ~133.

The additional 7-13 A359s helps close the gap and rebuild the widebody fleet, and potentially gets its back over 140 frames by end of 2022 (pending delivery and mod timeframe).
Like someone else said, with the larger gauge it will get them closer on a ASM basis with larger gauge aircraft, but still a gap on the number of aircraft and number of routes/departures.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:01 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here was DL's Pre-COVID widebody fleet plan (based on YE2019 10-K and planned deliveries & retirements).

Pre-COVID
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE2022
B763 226 58 56 56 56 56
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 11 22 30
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 17 19 19
B77E/L 290 18 18 18 18 18
WB FLEET 150 154 165 178 186
:
Here is the revised fleet plan as of YE2020 10-K based on planned deliveries and retirements:
Post-COVID:
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE 2022
B763 226 58 56 34 32 32 (estimated to be between 28-32 frames)
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 8 11 19
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 15 15 17
B77E/L 290 18 18 0 0 0
WB FLEET 150 154 120 121 131

Pre-Covid, DL was at 150-154 widebodies with plans to grow the fleet to approaching 180 frames by end of 2022.
At year-end 2020 the widebody fleet was at 120 frames and going to be flat in 2021 and grow from there as A339 & A359 deliveries will be offset by B763 retirements.
B763 retirements are to act as the buffer / flex fleet with full retirement of the remaining 32-34 frames planned by December 2025.
I believe it was posted on here elsewhere that about ~17-18 of the 763s are going to get the "76K" / Y+ mod, which indicates to me those are probably the "survivor" frames that make it through 2025, while the other 12-13 frames will phase out before then.

That being said, with that post-covid baseline, at YE2022, DL was still going to be ~20 widebodies fewer than 2019 and ~50 less than their pre-COVID plan. Disclaimer being that there was probably going to be some 763 retirements in the pre-COVID plan where appropriate (e.g., the selling of of some as freighters, parking as they reached heavy maintenance). DL had never publically put a phase-out for the 763 out there pre-COVID but most of us assumed it was going to start phasing frames out after peak summer 2022 or 2023 and a possible full retirement in the 2027-2028 timeframe.

Since Feb, DL has taken the following actions:
- Moved-up delivery of 1 A339 into 2022
- Moved-up delivery of 2 A359 into 2022

Thus YE2022 is now at ~133.

The additional 7-13 A359s helps close the gap and rebuild the widebody fleet, and potentially gets its back over 140 frames by end of 2022 (pending delivery and mod timeframe).
Like someone else said, with the larger gauge it will get them closer on a ASM basis with larger gauge aircraft, but still a gap on the number of aircraft and number of routes/departures.


Adding 13 A359s to the MY22 gets you 144 frames - 6 less than the 150 from 2018 - but a total of 38,574 widebody seats, which is more than the 38,517 seats available in 2018.
 
A320B737NGCapt
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:11 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
dalmit wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Great thanks! Were all birds post L/N 219 with 280, or just some?


4 of the 7 Aercap frames are post L/N 219 including the one that was just registered by Delta as N575DZ.


Thanks. I guess the ultimate question I have is are all post 219 frames 280 / are these frames 280? Or is it just some frames.


Any frame built with the extra wing twist is capable of 280 MTOW. Also they feature the larger/Taller winglet.
Last edited by A320B737NGCapt on Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14778
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:11 pm

Looks like Delta was quick & decisive here Rapidly & cheaply replacing their Pacific 772ER's to support Asian market recovery, without joining the A350 waiting line.

Some work to bring the LATAM's A350s (mostly) to Delta spec. Doable, 7-10 days work per aircraft I estimate.

They will "push-out" scheduled Airbus deliveries no doubt. Saving them a lot of money,

Image
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/review- ... 00-photos/

Congratulations if they pull this off.
 
Lootess
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:29 pm

keesje wrote:
Looks like Delta was quick & decisive here Rapidly & cheaply replacing their Pacific 772ER's to support Asian market recovery, without joining the A350 waiting line.

Some work to bring the LATAM's A350s (mostly) to Delta spec. Doable, 7-10 days work per aircraft I estimate.

They will "push-out" scheduled Airbus deliveries no doubt. Saving them a lot of money,

Congratulations if they pull this off.


They moved up two A359, and one A339 into 2022 with Airbus in April, as they need all the frames pronto.
 
Breathe
Posts: 872
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:28 pm

FlyHPN wrote:
scbriml wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

I meant that as in I'm not sure their fleet will have 18 more A350s than it did in March last year. And presumable the ultra long haul routes + BJS/PVG/ICN/HND will need the legs of the A350 so probably the European routes will have to downgauge to an A330 (until they receive more A350s).


It seems DL has already acquired additional A350s per this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1461847


That’s a link to this thread…

That's what I thought too! For a moment I thought I was losing my mind. :lol:
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20190
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:55 pm

Breathe wrote:
FlyHPN wrote:
scbriml wrote:

It seems DL has already acquired additional A350s per this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1461847


That’s a link to this thread…

That's what I thought too! For a moment I thought I was losing my mind. :lol:


Yeah, my bad - I thought I was in the other DL A350 thread. :oops:
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23080
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:51 pm

Do not discuss other users. See forum rules.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 14301
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:53 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Thanks. I guess the ultimate question I have is are all post 219 frames 280 / are these frames 280? Or is it just some frames.

Any frame built with the extra wing twist is capable of 280 MTOW. Also they feature the larger/Taller winglet.

You're saying the same thing.

Any delivery after L/N 219 will have those offerings (even though 216 was the first to incorporate it.)

Though (to the former poster) just because the airframe has the capability to offer 280T, doesn't mean that the carrier will select that WV. There's any number they can choose from. But the capability is built into the plane, if they or a subsequent operator want to pay Airbus for it.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23080
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:56 pm

CX747 wrote:
Looks like they have scooped up some young viable A350s. Now we shall see if the 737 portion of the rumor is correct.

Congrats on the Airbus widebodies. More than I expected, a nice fleet replacement.


I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10169
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:07 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The additional 7-13 A359s helps close the gap and rebuild the widebody fleet, and potentially gets its back over 140 frames by end of 2022 (pending delivery and mod timeframe).
Like someone else said, with the larger gauge it will get them closer on a ASM basis with larger gauge aircraft, but still a gap on the number of aircraft and number of routes/departures.


Thank you for going through the details to confirm my back-of-the-envelope math.

Senior pilots care about the ability to work extra hours. Junior pilots care about advancing into widebody pay rates and earning potential per work day. A lot!

lightsaber wrote:
I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber


Given the low marginal costs at Boeing for an extra three or four MAXs a month, I expect that something could be an order for 100 MAX 8s and 100 options -- but I'm not ready to bet on it yet.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.


DL will take delivery of 22 A321 this year. These were the de facto replacements for the MD-88 and MD-90 (in other words, the aircraft scheduled to enter the fleet by the time the MD aircraft exited). DL has 125 A321NEO scheduled for delivery within the next several years. These could be used to backfill capacity as needed, replace the older A320 and B757, and for expansion. And of course, I'm certain there's some merit to the rumor that DL's looking at second-hand late-model 739, which could be used for a similar purpose. The oldest B738 has awhile to go before it's retired (5 were built in 1998, 11 in 1999, 22 in 2000, 27 in 2001, 8 in 2002, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2012. 2 in 2013 and 1 in 2014).

I'm not certain there's much of a case to replace the 717 in the near future. Prior to COVID, reports were that DL -- which had been buying the aircraft off-lease and was expected to make cabin & cockpit upgrades -- had decided to move away from the type, largely due to swelling labor costs. If business travel is slow to bounce back, and the low fare environment persists (as many including WN project), it'd probably make more sense to keep the CRJ around a bit longer.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Given the low marginal costs at Boeing for an extra three or four MAXs a month, I expect that something could be an order for 100 MAX 8s and 100 options -- but I'm not ready to bet on it yet.


I'll bet that when UA announces its pending mega order (some of which will reiterate/replace existing orders), this forum will lose its cool and insist that unless DL buys 787 and the MAX now, it's headed for financial ruin. Because the average person can tell the difference between a refurbished 320 and 320 NEO, you know. (And UA's order appears to be in lieu of its previous plan to renovate its existing fleet.)
 
Lootess
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:15 pm

In times like this, it's an advantage to pickup A359 leases on a whim, it gets Delta back to where they were, with better cost savings, along with a happier senior pilot group, that already was growing weary about the JV share of flying pre-pandemic. Plus they could simply outright buy the planes with an improved cash position when they come off lease like they usually do. I don't see any negatives.

I do feel they have a lot of time left on the clock to address the 717 retirement. On the other hand we'll probably start to see Delta become more aggressive on narrowbodies since this market is growing more notches off the belt buckles. Plus the thought of being an "NMA" launch customer isn't coming anytime soon, but stranger things have happened. Do we see another AA-type of MAX ordeal with Boeing, the promise of a new plane/order.
 
audidudi
Posts: 3067
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:33 pm

Here's a list of the 13 LATAM frames and where they were last reported as stored:

MSN 24...PR-XTA...VCV
MSN 27...PR-XTB...VCV
MSN 35...PR-XTC...CNF
MSN 45...PR-XTD...GRU
MSN 48...PR-XTE...GRU
MSN 64...PR-XTF...VCV
MSN 79...PR-XTG...GRU
MSN 200...PR-XTH...LDE
MSN 250...PR-XTI...GRU
MSN 265...PR-XTJ...VCV
MSN 282...PR-XTK...N575DZ...VCV
MSN 313...PR-XTL...CNF
MSN 363...PR-XTM...GRU
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:23 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Here was DL's Pre-COVID widebody fleet plan (based on YE2019 10-K and planned deliveries & retirements).

Pre-COVID
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE2022
B763 226 58 56 56 56 56
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 11 22 30
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 17 19 19
B77E/L 290 18 18 18 18 18
WB FLEET 150 154 165 178 186
:
Here is the revised fleet plan as of YE2020 10-K based on planned deliveries and retirements:
Post-COVID:
TYPE Capacity YE2018 YE2019 YE2020 YE2021 YE 2022
B763 226 58 56 34 32 32 (estimated to be between 28-32 frames)
B764 246 21 21 21 21 21
A332 234 11 11 11 11 11
A339 281 0 4 8 11 19
A333 293 31 31 31 31 31
A359 306 11 13 15 15 17
B77E/L 290 18 18 0 0 0
WB FLEET 150 154 120 121 131

Pre-Covid, DL was at 150-154 widebodies with plans to grow the fleet to approaching 180 frames by end of 2022.
At year-end 2020 the widebody fleet was at 120 frames and going to be flat in 2021 and grow from there as A339 & A359 deliveries will be offset by B763 retirements.
B763 retirements are to act as the buffer / flex fleet with full retirement of the remaining 32-34 frames planned by December 2025.
I believe it was posted on here elsewhere that about ~17-18 of the 763s are going to get the "76K" / Y+ mod, which indicates to me those are probably the "survivor" frames that make it through 2025, while the other 12-13 frames will phase out before then.

That being said, with that post-covid baseline, at YE2022, DL was still going to be ~20 widebodies fewer than 2019 and ~50 less than their pre-COVID plan. Disclaimer being that there was probably going to be some 763 retirements in the pre-COVID plan where appropriate (e.g., the selling of of some as freighters, parking as they reached heavy maintenance). DL had never publically put a phase-out for the 763 out there pre-COVID but most of us assumed it was going to start phasing frames out after peak summer 2022 or 2023 and a possible full retirement in the 2027-2028 timeframe.

Since Feb, DL has taken the following actions:
- Moved-up delivery of 1 A339 into 2022
- Moved-up delivery of 2 A359 into 2022

Thus YE2022 is now at ~133.

The additional 7-13 A359s helps close the gap and rebuild the widebody fleet, and potentially gets its back over 140 frames by end of 2022 (pending delivery and mod timeframe).
Like someone else said, with the larger gauge it will get them closer on a ASM basis with larger gauge aircraft, but still a gap on the number of aircraft and number of routes/departures.



Very interesting, thanks!!
 
dalmit
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:08 am

audidudi wrote:
Here's a list of the 13 LATAM frames and where they were last reported as stored:

MSN 24...PR-XTA...VCV
MSN 27...PR-XTB...VCV
MSN 35...PR-XTC...CNF
MSN 45...PR-XTD...GRU
MSN 48...PR-XTE...GRU
MSN 64...PR-XTF...VCV
MSN 79...PR-XTG...GRU
MSN 200...PR-XTH...LDE
MSN 250...PR-XTI...GRU
MSN 265...PR-XTJ...VCV
MSN 282...PR-XTK...N575DZ...VCV
MSN 313...PR-XTL...CNF
MSN 363...PR-XTM...GRU


I'm curious why Delta chose to use N575DZ for this leased aircraft as opposed to something more in the same range as their existing (or future orders) sequence. Currently A350s are registered as N501DN through N515DN. If you leave a gap for the 20 firm orders that would suggest that you would start these new 7 (or 13) at N536DN. Additionally, why use DZ instead of DN/DE or DT. Delta has both reserved. All this leads me to believe that this lease is going to be VERY SHORT TERM. They are using throw away registration numbers because they won't be around for long. Of course this is all just rabid speculation on my part but that's what humans do when they aren't given all the information.

Is there a way to find the term of an aircraft lease or is that super confidential?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:45 am

That is a bit of a reach there to draw that conclusion purely based on registration numbers.

Case in point being how the regs for the ex Shanghai 757s that were obtained in 2015 are nowhere in the same block of reg numbers as they are N8xxDX.

Obtaining used A359s of similar vintage to their existing fleet doesn’t sound like any type of a short term proposition
 
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DL_Mech
Posts: 2748
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:48 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 am

dalmit wrote:

I'm curious why Delta chose to use N575DZ for this leased aircraft as opposed to something more in the same range as their existing (or future orders) sequence. Currently A350s are registered as N501DN through N515DN. If you leave a gap for the 20 firm orders that would suggest that you would start these new 7 (or 13) at N536DN.


I don’t know the exact reason, but a large block of used aircraft from the could be adjacent to current ship numbers or not close at all. For instance, the Delta L-1011 fleet:

Delta : 701-741, 751-753(-500)

Pan Am: 754-756

PUD (Pan Am, United, Delta): 759-763

Air Canada: 764-769

Eastern: 781-790

TWA: 798-799

For the MD-11s, some manuals showed effective aircraft as 801-870 even though the fleet was capped at 801-815. Two leased planes in the fleet became 891-892 .
 
tjerome
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:44 am

With the 330 fleet we have 3301-3321 (original NWA frames) then 3322-3331 were the 10 frames that DL ordered. The 332s ended up being 3351-3361. The 763ER fleet is an oddball too. 1200-1201, 1501-1506 and 1521, 1601-1613, 1701-1708.

Simply said the 359s that will be acquired are coming from a different place, it makes sense to have their own separate ship numbers to be differentiated from the original DL orders. There's nothing wrong with it at all.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:48 am

Congratulations on Delta for picking up those pre-owned A359 on the cheap. What an opportunist purchase. Since they are only recently retired by LATAM, bringing them up to date is probably less time consuming than taking those ex-HNA Group's which might be empty shell.

Now that we have cleared the A359 rumour, focus will be on the used B739ER.....Anyone heard of any update flying around?
 
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keesje
Posts: 14778
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:07 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Congratulations on Delta for picking up those pre-owned A359 on the cheap. What an opportunist purchase. Since they are only recently retired by LATAM, bringing them up to date is probably less time consuming than taking those ex-HNA Group's which might be empty shell.

Now that we have cleared the A359 rumour, focus will be on the used B739ER.....Anyone heard of any update flying around?


The 737-900ER are workhorses for Dl (&UA). At DL average 737-900ER age is less than 5 yrs, so they'll be in the fleet for at least 20 years. Expanding that fleet opportunistically doesn't seem a bad idea. They have 180 seats in 3 seat classes, minimal 30 inch seat pitch, 4 lav's and up to date IFE. TechOps has all capabilities in house.

Image

https://img2.pngio.com/boeing-737-900er-delta-air-lines-boeing-737900er-png-454_127.png

Question seems where to get 737-900ER's. The A350s came out of financial constrains of LATAM, not many -900ER's parked. Lionair, Malindo, Korean?..
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:06 pm

keesje wrote:
Question seems where to get 737-900ER's. The A350s came out of financial constrains of LATAM, not many -900ER's parked. Lionair, Malindo, Korean?..


LionAir currently has anywhere from 26-35 (depending on the source) parked 737-900ERs, the vast majority of their 737-900ER fleet being leased, with 243 737 MAX on order and undelivered.

It would make sense for LionAir to not renew the leases of any of their 737-900ER, and it would make sense for Delta to acquire (via lease or purchase) those frames

The total parked seems to line up with the rumored quantity of LionAir parked frames....which could also mean that Delta may sublease frames from LionAir and then purchase/assume those frames once the LionAir leases expire.
 
papatango
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:04 pm

How many A350s did Delta actually pick up only one?
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:14 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.


DL will take delivery of 22 A321 this year. These were the de facto replacements for the MD-88 and MD-90 (in other words, the aircraft scheduled to enter the fleet by the time the MD aircraft exited). DL has 125 A321NEO scheduled for delivery within the next several years. These could be used to backfill capacity as needed, replace the older A320 and B757, and for expansion. And of course, I'm certain there's some merit to the rumor that DL's looking at second-hand late-model 739, which could be used for a similar purpose. The oldest B738 has awhile to go before it's retired (5 were built in 1998, 11 in 1999, 22 in 2000, 27 in 2001, 8 in 2002, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2012. 2 in 2013 and 1 in 2014).

I'm not certain there's much of a case to replace the 717 in the near future. Prior to COVID, reports were that DL -- which had been buying the aircraft off-lease and was expected to make cabin & cockpit upgrades -- had decided to move away from the type, largely due to swelling labor costs. If business travel is slow to bounce back, and the low fare environment persists (as many including WN project), it'd probably make more sense to keep the CRJ around a bit longer.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Given the low marginal costs at Boeing for an extra three or four MAXs a month, I expect that something could be an order for 100 MAX 8s and 100 options -- but I'm not ready to bet on it yet.


I'll bet that when UA announces its pending mega order (some of which will reiterate/replace existing orders), this forum will lose its cool and insist that unless DL buys 787 and the MAX now, it's headed for financial ruin. Because the average person can tell the difference between a refurbished 320 and 320 NEO, you know. (And UA's order appears to be in lieu of its previous plan to renovate its existing fleet.)


The A321neo order was originally for 100 frames and 100 options, 25 of which have been converted to firm orders for 125. So I expect that fleet to grow over time as demand recovers and 757s age out. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Delta does in the 150-180 seat range as the A320s and 738s age. Unless GE plays ball on LEAP maintenance, I think an A320neo order may be in the cards several years down the line with Pratt GTFs. But that is just a hunch and I wouldn't be surprised if Delta instead sticks with A321s as part of their upgauging and offer more seats with fewer frequencies in certain markets.
 
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res77W
Posts: 379
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:41 pm

Could Delta also make a play on the parked LATAM A321-211s? They’re sharklet-equipped and CFM powered like the rest of the fleet. Different leasing company and terms I’m assuming?

-Rowen
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10169
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:45 pm

res77W wrote:
Could Delta also make a play on the parked LATAM A321-211s? They’re sharklet-equipped and CFM powered like the rest of the fleet. Different leasing company and terms I’m assuming?

-Rowen


I wouldn't expect small quantities of narrowbodies from many sources - that just boosts the acquisition cost and reconfig costs per frame. But, sure, 738, 739ER, A320, or A321 in good shape, under maybe ten years old, in decent quantity per transaction, from any respectable lessor/carrier combo, could be in play.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23080
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
res77W wrote:
Could Delta also make a play on the parked LATAM A321-211s? They’re sharklet-equipped and CFM powered like the rest of the fleet. Different leasing company and terms I’m assuming?

-Rowen


I wouldn't expect small quantities of narrowbodies from many sources - that just boosts the acquisition cost and reconfig costs per frame. But, sure, 738, 739ER, A320, or A321 in good shape, under maybe ten years old, in decent quantity per transaction, from any respectable lessor/carrier combo, could be in play.

I would rephrase the DL is unlikely to take many different narrowbodies in odd configurations in small lots.

I would add 738.

Lightsaber
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
res77W wrote:
Could Delta also make a play on the parked LATAM A321-211s? They’re sharklet-equipped and CFM powered like the rest of the fleet. Different leasing company and terms I’m assuming?

-Rowen


I wouldn't expect small quantities of narrowbodies from many sources - that just boosts the acquisition cost and reconfig costs per frame. But, sure, 738, 739ER, A320, or A321 in good shape, under maybe ten years old, in decent quantity per transaction, from any respectable lessor/carrier combo, could be in play.

I would rephrase the DL is unlikely to take many different narrowbodies in odd configurations in small lots.

I would add 738.

Lightsaber


100%, we saw DL get rid of oddball 767s, the small fleet of 777s (that had two versions), and the 10 737-700s. Efficiency is key - while that can mean large fleets of 737 (NG or MAX) and A320-series (ceo or neo) operate alongside each other, it doesn't mean lots of small subfleets that create limitations. DL certainly won't add back complications unless it is advantageous.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:48 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Congratulations on Delta for picking up those pre-owned A359 on the cheap. What an opportunist purchase. Since they are only recently retired by LATAM, bringing them up to date is probably less time consuming than taking those ex-HNA Group's which might be empty shell.

Now that we have cleared the A359 rumour, focus will be on the used B739ER.....Anyone heard of any update flying around?


It's going to be 739s from Lion Air.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:03 pm

keesje wrote:
Looks like Delta was quick & decisive here Rapidly & cheaply replacing their Pacific 772ER's to support Asian market recovery, without joining the A350 waiting line.

Some work to bring the LATAM's A350s (mostly) to Delta spec. Doable, 7-10 days work per aircraft I estimate.

They will "push-out" scheduled Airbus deliveries no doubt. Saving them a lot of money,

Image
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/review- ... 00-photos/

Congratulations if they pull this off.


This is just an objectively beautiful plane in that paint scheme.
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5544
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:04 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I wouldn't expect small quantities of narrowbodies from many sources - that just boosts the acquisition cost and reconfig costs per frame. But, sure, 738, 739ER, A320, or A321 in good shape, under maybe ten years old, in decent quantity per transaction, from any respectable lessor/carrier combo, could be in play.

I would rephrase the DL is unlikely to take many different narrowbodies in odd configurations in small lots.

I would add 738.

Lightsaber


100%, we saw DL get rid of oddball 767s, the small fleet of 777s (that had two versions), and the 10 737-700s. Efficiency is key - while that can mean large fleets of 737 (NG or MAX) and A320-series (ceo or neo) operate alongside each other, it doesn't mean lots of small subfleets that create limitations. DL certainly won't add back complications unless it is advantageous.


The thing is, there's very little in a 738 that can make it an oddball, especially after the interior is gutted and swapped out. DL isn't shy about this, they've already put former GOL 738s into service and their oldest examples are getting up there in age and use.

Engines are the main issue at DL, and the pandemic saw the retirement of the GE90, JT8D, V2500 and teh RRs on the 772ER fleet. That's a huge savings right there, so the incremental cost of standardizing a few used airframes is next to nothing going forward.
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 2721
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:08 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
keesje wrote:
Looks like Delta was quick & decisive here Rapidly & cheaply replacing their Pacific 772ER's to support Asian market recovery, without joining the A350 waiting line.

Some work to bring the LATAM's A350s (mostly) to Delta spec. Doable, 7-10 days work per aircraft I estimate.

They will "push-out" scheduled Airbus deliveries no doubt. Saving them a lot of money,

Image
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/review- ... 00-photos/

Congratulations if they pull this off.


This is just an objectively beautiful plane in that paint scheme.


I agree. She's an absolute stunner. Really good looking.

Pre-Corona, the A350 was the airliner with the best residual value of all types. I wonder if this is the same now? How many did Delta get from Latam?
 
Lootess
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:20 pm

If I recall the interior refurb was one factor of the rejected A359s from LATAM initially, of course Delta was burning lots of cash daily to even consider making use of the planes right then and the exit fee was the cheapest option to make the problem go away at the time. But that's how these things are, and anytime they acquire there is the refurb cost factored into the purchase. Sometimes in the deal itself like the Southwest 717s.
 
TW870
Posts: 1371
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:47 pm

Could anyone do a quick re-cap of the Delta-LATAM A350 transactions over the last couple of years?

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I presume summer 2022 EIS for the first of these frames. Does that sound about right? I'm guessing that even if they can find a way to make the D1 suites from the 777s fit into these birds, that there is just no way to do full cabin refurbs plus get that many pilots through the sims before next summer.

Great news though overall!
 
LDRA
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:52 pm

TW870 wrote:
Could anyone do a quick re-cap of the Delta-LATAM A350 transactions over the last couple of years?

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I presume summer 2022 EIS for the first of these frames. Does that sound about right? I'm guessing that even if they can find a way to make the D1 suites from the 777s fit into these birds, that there is just no way to do full cabin refurbs plus get that many pilots through the sims before next summer.

Great news though overall!


Why full cabin refurb? They're 90% brand new! Put D1 in and good for at least a few years
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:23 pm

LDRA wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Could anyone do a quick re-cap of the Delta-LATAM A350 transactions over the last couple of years?

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I presume summer 2022 EIS for the first of these frames. Does that sound about right? I'm guessing that even if they can find a way to make the D1 suites from the 777s fit into these birds, that there is just no way to do full cabin refurbs plus get that many pilots through the sims before next summer.

Great news though overall!


Why full cabin refurb? They're 90% brand new! Put D1 in and good for at least a few years


Because then it’s an inconsistent product. Something DL has worked hard to avoid.
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