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LDRA
Posts: 394
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:34 pm

The 350s, are they the later MSN ones or the really early MSN ones?

LATAM has 13 of them, I think four of them are 280T
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 636
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:19 pm

The 73G and 777 were sold. They’re not coming back. I’m not sure why the same users keep bringing this up…

N649DL wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
Ugggghhhh... No more 737-900ers for Delta! Delta configured that plane so badly, I'd be very sad if this rumor is true. But please, bring on more A350s!


Worse than United though? At least DL has AVOD installed.

From what I remember (my memory is hazy so I could be wrong) but DL didn't really seek out the 739ER, Boeing gave them favorable pricing terms. When they took delivery of them, they were acquiring second hand 717s and M90s left and right. Then again, they do have 128 of them in service so maybe not. I just checked and didn't realize they had so many.

I think the intent was for them to replace the oldest 757s from the Mid/Late 1980s by introducing the 739ER. The new A321s seem to largely help accelerate the retirements of the M88s and M90s (along with the decision to reconfigure and keep around older A320s.) At one point, DL was going to ditch quite a few of the A320s (which was why they didn't install AVOD initially and then decided to keep them and do a "Version 2" of the retrofit program.) Same with the 757s and they ended up retrofitting and keeping quite a few frames around. There are some in the fleet with brand new interiors which are pushing over 30 years in age.

DL's fleet strategy has changed a lot over the last decade so it wouldn't surprise me if they were looking to acquire used aircraft once again (probably to start replacing the 717s). They did so a few years ago by acquiring some of the youngest 757s ever built from 2004-2005.

Boeing757100 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Can they bring back the 777s? Only been in the desert for a few months and have brand new interiors.



Most of them were sold to this entity called Mammoth. No idea what they're gonna do with them. Though I agree it would be nice to see the 777 flying in DL colors again.


I doubt the 777s are coming back with the A350 in place. DL only had 18 of them anyway and were essentially a sub-fleet. However, if DL was ever to acquired used 73Gs, I could see them pulling all 10 back into service (should they still be around in storage).
 
T773ER
Topic Author
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:32 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
+ 29 737-900ERs & + 7 350-900s. A little birdie told me the internal fleet summary doc have them included.



That is correct, they have been added to internal fleet summary. Expect an announcement this week.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:34 pm

T773ER wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
+ 29 737-900ERs & + 7 350-900s. A little birdie told me the internal fleet summary doc have them included.



That is correct, they have been added to internal fleet summary. Expect an announcement this week.


Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.
 
T773ER
Topic Author
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:38 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
+ 29 737-900ERs & + 7 350-900s. A little birdie told me the internal fleet summary doc have them included.



That is correct, they have been added to internal fleet summary. Expect an announcement this week.


Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.


I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:46 pm

T773ER wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:


That is correct, they have been added to internal fleet summary. Expect an announcement this week.


Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.


I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


Interesting. Anything else to be included? New orders? :)
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 636
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:01 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.


I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


Interesting. Anything else to be included? New orders? :)


If DL were negotiating a new order, some details would’ve leaked by now, just as they did for this used order. And recent orders by UA, WN, etc. pretty much lock up production slots into the near future.

I’m amused by this forums obsession with a new blockbuster DL order. DL is not deficient in aircraft. DL’s set to take delivery of roughly 300 new and used aircraft within 5 years. By the end of next year, there will be more A330/A350 in the fleet than they were A330/A350/B777 at the start of the pandemic… and we still have a ways to go before we’ve recovered (on the long haul level).
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:23 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
I’m amused by this forums obsession with a new blockbuster DL order. DL is not deficient in aircraft. DL’s set to take delivery of roughly 300 new and used aircraft within 5 years. By the end of next year, there will be more A330/A350 in the fleet than they were A330/A350/B777 at the start of the pandemic… and we still have a ways to go before we’ve recovered (on the long haul level).


You're ignoring the 20 767s DL took out of the active fleet by 3/31/21.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:49 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:

I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


Interesting. Anything else to be included? New orders? :)


If DL were negotiating a new order, some details would’ve leaked by now, just as they did for this used order. And recent orders by UA, WN, etc. pretty much lock up production slots into the near future.

I’m amused by this forums obsession with a new blockbuster DL order. DL is not deficient in aircraft. DL’s set to take delivery of roughly 300 new and used aircraft within 5 years. By the end of next year, there will be more A330/A350 in the fleet than they were A330/A350/B777 at the start of the pandemic… and we still have a ways to go before we’ve recovered (on the long haul level).


It was more a joke than anything else man....we are aviation enthusiasts, can't we want new orders and things to be good for airlines? I usually find your posts insightful, but you seem to have a bone to pick with posters a lot recently.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:18 am

Well.....to be fair, there is a lot of rose-colored glasses that keep going on and on and on and speculating that DL is imminently going to be placing a blockbuster order ASAP. It seems to come up weekly. There is a sub-set of poster that keeps spouting off these things on a weekly basis yet brings almost zero data points or analysis to justify their position.

I am amazed at how many on here seem to forget how many aircraft DL already has on-order for the next 5 years, their historical buying patterns, how they utilize their fleet across their network, and many other collaborating data points. Every other instance of some "mega-order" from DL (2011 B739 order, the big Airbus orders more recently) has been selectively leaked info, drips of information, and "people familiar with the matter" speaking about RFPs, etc. This all-but-officially-announced-in-a-press-release of the A359 & B739 acquisition has been credibly rumored for about 2-3 months now if your collaborate multiple data points and breadcrumbs out there.

I know its a joke, but the people shouting from the mountain tops "OMG DL NEEDS TO ORDER MAXES ASAP" or "THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH PLANES" needs to balance their perspective.

I am going to speculate that the earnings release and discussion is going to be interesting on several fronts. As Q2 2021 is now the first quarter that we've really seen any sort of recovery out of COVID. A lot of the commentary, discussion, and analyst Q&A is going to focus on the recovery and near to medium-term forecast. Questions about recovery in international, business travel, etc. What are their plans to scale-up fleet, employees, etc and not lose-out to competitors gaining traction/market share etc.
DL is going to have to address their fleet plans one way or another and going to get questions about all the retirements they pulled ahead in 2020.
Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect we heard some further statements about the 717, 763, CRJ fleet and either confirming or extending their retirement dates. Many some commentary about how they plan to use/phase-out older A320 and 757s. I guarantee analysts ask these questions since well its noteworthy about how they plan to address their forward-look capacity plans and capex while keeping "levers" for scaling up/down in future years.
 
papatango
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:33 am

Which Lion Air B737-900ERs are Delta getting?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:27 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well.....to be fair, there is a lot of rose-colored glasses that keep going on and on and on and speculating that DL is imminently going to be placing a blockbuster order ASAP. It seems to come up weekly. There is a sub-set of poster that keeps spouting off these things on a weekly basis yet brings almost zero data points or analysis to justify their position.

I am amazed at how many on here seem to forget how many aircraft DL already has on-order for the next 5 years, their historical buying patterns, how they utilize their fleet across their network, and many other collaborating data points. Every other instance of some "mega-order" from DL (2011 B739 order, the big Airbus orders more recently) has been selectively leaked info, drips of information, and "people familiar with the matter" speaking about RFPs, etc. This all-but-officially-announced-in-a-press-release of the A359 & B739 acquisition has been credibly rumored for about 2-3 months now if your collaborate multiple data points and breadcrumbs out there.

I know its a joke, but the people shouting from the mountain tops "OMG DL NEEDS TO ORDER MAXES ASAP" or "THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH PLANES" needs to balance their perspective.

I am going to speculate that the earnings release and discussion is going to be interesting on several fronts. As Q2 2021 is now the first quarter that we've really seen any sort of recovery out of COVID. A lot of the commentary, discussion, and analyst Q&A is going to focus on the recovery and near to medium-term forecast. Questions about recovery in international, business travel, etc. What are their plans to scale-up fleet, employees, etc and not lose-out to competitors gaining traction/market share etc.
DL is going to have to address their fleet plans one way or another and going to get questions about all the retirements they pulled ahead in 2020.
Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect we heard some further statements about the 717, 763, CRJ fleet and either confirming or extending their retirement dates. Many some commentary about how they plan to use/phase-out older A320 and 757s. I guarantee analysts ask these questions since well its noteworthy about how they plan to address their forward-look capacity plans and capex while keeping "levers" for scaling up/down in future years.


Yea, I know there are a handful of posters that think DL has a major shortage. I’m not one of those. DL doesn’t need an order now for aircraft replacements 10 years out nor does DL have a current critical need. Could there be opportunities for new acquisitions? Yes, I think so. I’m very intrigued how DL’s fleet will play out over the next few years and if DL decides to get aggressive (to any degree) relative to UA/WN and even AS to an extent, each of which seems to be strategically expanding (and yes, still replacing retirements).

My question while mostly a joke, was very clearly directed at someone who is informed and has credibly posted on here before.
 
timf
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:42 pm

LDRA wrote:
The 350s, are they the later MSN ones or the really early MSN ones?

LATAM has 13 of them, I think four of them are 280T

It's a mix of older and newer frames. The AerCap leased ones are 48, 64, 200, 250, 265, 282 and 313. For comparison, Delta's oldest is 115, and their first 280T was 267. The four newest leased aircraft should have the 280T design updates. LATAM has one additional aircraft that is newer than the ones listed that is not part of the deal.
 
panamair
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:57 pm

timf wrote:
LDRA wrote:
The 350s, are they the later MSN ones or the really early MSN ones?

LATAM has 13 of them, I think four of them are 280T

It's a mix of older and newer frames. The AerCap leased ones are 48, 64, 200, 250, 265, 282 and 313. For comparison, Delta's oldest is 115, and their first 280T was 267. The four newest leased aircraft should have the 280T design updates. LATAM has one additional aircraft that is newer than the ones listed that is not part of the deal.


Thanks for the info...I believe #48, 64, and 313 had also been subleased to QR by LA, but all have been returned since spring 2020.
 
audidudi
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:26 pm

panamair wrote:
timf wrote:
LDRA wrote:
The 350s, are they the later MSN ones or the really early MSN ones?

LATAM has 13 of them, I think four of them are 280T

It's a mix of older and newer frames. The AerCap leased ones are 48, 64, 200, 250, 265, 282 and 313. For comparison, Delta's oldest is 115, and their first 280T was 267. The four newest leased aircraft should have the 280T design updates. LATAM has one additional aircraft that is newer than the ones listed that is not part of the deal.


Thanks for the info...I believe #48, 64, and 313 had also been subleased to QR by LA, but all have been returned since spring 2020.

All correct.

Here are the MSN #s and registrations that were all subleased to QR by LA...are these the 7 frames that DL is getting, or are they getting the additional 6 frames listed below this group...DL does have 13 registrations reserved on the FAA Registry!

MSN 045 PR-XTD/A7-AMD
MSN 048 PR-XTE/A7-AMC
MSN 064 PR-XTF/A7-AMB
MSN 079 PR-XTG/A7-AMA
MSN 265 PR-XTJ/A7-AQA
MSN 282 PR-XTK/A7-AQB/N575DZ
MSN 313 PR-XTL/A7-AQC

These 6 frames were always flown by LA:

MSN 024 PR-XTA
MSN 027 PR-XTB
MSN 035 PR-XTC
MSN 200 PR-XTH
MSN 250 PR-XTI
MSN 363 PR-XTM
 
T773ER
Topic Author
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Looks like they have scooped up some young viable A350s. Now we shall see if the 737 portion of the rumor is correct.

Congrats on the Airbus widebodies. More than I expected, a nice fleet replacement.


I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber


All 77 737-800s will be getting the Split Scimitar Winglets (SSW) in Q2 2022 so they will be around for awhile yet.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:19 pm

Was out at VCV over the weekend, nothing really ‘new’ to add but A359 N575DZ (ex LATAM PR-XTK) has the ‘LATAM’ tiles on the fuselage painted over. Everything else, including the winglets and tail, have not yet been debranded and still retain the LATAM livery.

In addition, the new registration (N575DZ) has been temporarily applied over the old one until they can get the jet into a paint hangar (not sure if it’ll be at VCV or somewhere else of Delta’s choosing) for the full Delta livery.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling college and airplanes • Love the 747 & 777-9
 
flyinghippo
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:50 pm

Does anyone know if any of these A359s have HUD or external cameras installed? IIRC, none of the DL A359s has them - would it require special operations if these used A359s have these additional equipment? Or DL would just disable them/not use them?

Also I'd assume DL would completely remodel the interior and install DL seats on these birds?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:54 am

T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Looks like they have scooped up some young viable A350s. Now we shall see if the 737 portion of the rumor is correct.

Congrats on the Airbus widebodies. More than I expected, a nice fleet replacement.


I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber


All 77 737-800s will be getting the Split Scimitar Winglets (SSW) in Q2 2022 so they will be around for awhile yet.

I missed the upgrades. That changes the timeline, obviously. So growth or replace the other aircraft. ;)

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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snoopaloop
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:06 am

T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Looks like they have scooped up some young viable A350s. Now we shall see if the 737 portion of the rumor is correct.

Congrats on the Airbus widebodies. More than I expected, a nice fleet replacement.


I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber


All 77 737-800s will be getting the Split Scimitar Winglets (SSW) in Q2 2022 so they will be around for awhile yet.


What about a cabin refurbishment for the older birds then?
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:18 am

Yeah, one would hope all the older birds will get a cabin refresh so there is brand consistency with both the hard and soft product on board.
come visit the south pacific
 
seatown1
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:57 am

snoopaloop wrote:
T773ER wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Congrats on the Airbus widebodies. More than I expected, a nice fleet replacement.


I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

Lightsaber


All 77 737-800s will be getting the Split Scimitar Winglets (SSW) in Q2 2022 so they will be around for awhile yet.


What about a cabin refurbishment for the older birds then?


3701-3743 will be getting a cabin refresh in line with what's on the 900s.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:06 am

seatown1 wrote:
snoopaloop wrote:
T773ER wrote:

All 77 737-800s will be getting the Split Scimitar Winglets (SSW) in Q2 2022 so they will be around for awhile yet.


What about a cabin refurbishment for the older birds then?


3701-3743 will be getting a cabin refresh in line with what's on the 900s.


What about 3744-3773? These are the 738s that still have the old tiny ~2008 era PTVs while 3701-3743 have the newer larger Panasonic HD screens so I hope they are also planning mods for 3744-3773.
 
global1
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:09 pm

Can anyone share some insight on plans to continue the phase-in of the new DL proprietary IFE system already found on the 330neo, A220, and refurbished 767-400.

It seems to me that’s where we’re headed. Panasonic is on it’s way out as is GoGo (rapidly being replaced with ViaSat).
 
T773ER
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:09 pm

T773ER wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:


That is correct, they have been added to internal fleet summary. Expect an announcement this week.


Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.


I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


No longer a rumor, order has now been officially announced by Delta.

https://news.delta.com/delta-add-airbus ... d-recovery
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:12 pm

T773ER wrote:
T773ER wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Earnings on Wednesday will likely be the day.


I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


No longer a rumor, order has now been officially announced by Delta.

https://news.delta.com/delta-add-airbus ... d-recovery


Thanks for sharing. Interesting that 27 of the 29 739ERs are being purchased. DL surely has some favorable interest rates.

Delivery by 1Q 2022.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:28 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:
T773ER wrote:

I expect the announcement on Tuesday or very possibly tomorrow.


No longer a rumor, order has now been officially announced by Delta.

https://news.delta.com/delta-add-airbus ... d-recovery


Thanks for sharing. Interesting that 27 of the 29 739ERs are being purchased. DL surely has some favorable interest rates.

Delivery by 1Q 2022.

It sounds like all 29 737s are being purchased, just two financed in a slightly different way.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:46 pm

Interesting that all 29 737ERs are coming from a single source, and all 7 of the 359s are coming from a single source. I would expect that Delta got an even better deal on these frames by buying in volume from a lessor, rather than the lessor having to find a collage of homes for their frames.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:51 pm

Polot wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
T773ER wrote:

No longer a rumor, order has now been officially announced by Delta.

https://news.delta.com/delta-add-airbus ... d-recovery


Thanks for sharing. Interesting that 27 of the 29 739ERs are being purchased. DL surely has some favorable interest rates.

Delivery by 1Q 2022.

It sounds like all 29 737s are being purchased, just two financed in a slightly different way.


Good catch. I wonder why the special financing from Castlelake was called out separately. IMO Castlelake gave them extremely favorable terms on those 2 (as opposed to DL not being able to get financing from third parties for the additional 2).
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:41 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Polot wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Thanks for sharing. Interesting that 27 of the 29 739ERs are being purchased. DL surely has some favorable interest rates.

Delivery by 1Q 2022.

It sounds like all 29 737s are being purchased, just two financed in a slightly different way.


Good catch. I wonder why the special financing from Castlelake was called out separately. IMO Castlelake gave them extremely favorable terms on those 2 (as opposed to DL not being able to get financing from third parties for the additional 2).

I’m not familiar with Lionair’s fleet and who owns what/how many planes. Perhaps those 2 have a different owner so the terms of the sales agreement they reached with DL were a little different than the other 27?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:44 pm

Polot wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Polot wrote:
It sounds like all 29 737s are being purchased, just two financed in a slightly different way.


Good catch. I wonder why the special financing from Castlelake was called out separately. IMO Castlelake gave them extremely favorable terms on those 2 (as opposed to DL not being able to get financing from third parties for the additional 2).

I’m not familiar with Lionair’s fleet and who owns what/how many planes. Perhaps those 2 have a different owner so the terms of the sales agreement they reached with DL were a little different than the other 27?


All 29 are owned by various Castlelake funds.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:06 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
Interesting that all 29 737ERs are coming from a single source, and all 7 of the 359s are coming from a single source. I would expect that Delta got an even better deal on these frames by buying in volume from a lessor, rather than the lessor having to find a collage of homes for their frames.

This simplifies everything for both sides.

Knowing this, I bet other leasing companies will call. While they will obviously try to sell for the best deal, an airline buying is better than most cold calls...

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:12 pm

Yep...and a blue chip airline where the type is a core of its long-term fleet strategy and will invest in onboard product for consistency across its brand.
Makes it easier to place and either get them off your hands or not have to deal with ongoing "churn" of less-stable airlines.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:30 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Good catch. I wonder why the special financing from Castlelake was called out separately. IMO Castlelake gave them extremely favorable terms on those 2 (as opposed to DL not being able to get financing from third parties for the additional 2).


It has nothing to do with favorable terms / DL being unable to get financing, but rather how the deal was structured. Aircraft owned by Castlelake have been bundled into complex securities, so for those two aircraft it wasn't as simple as outright selling them to DL...

lightsaber wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Interesting that all 29 737ERs are coming from a single source, and all 7 of the 359s are coming from a single source. I would expect that Delta got an even better deal on these frames by buying in volume from a lessor, rather than the lessor having to find a collage of homes for their frames.

This simplifies everything for both sides.

Knowing this, I bet other leasing companies will call. While they will obviously try to sell for the best deal, an airline buying is better than most cold calls...

Lightsaber


I'd be surprised if DL's that active in the used aircraft market. Including these aircraft, DL will take delivery of ~80 aircraft next year -- that's a lot of capacity to inject in one year, and sellers are looking to get paid now, not in 2023.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:42 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Good catch. I wonder why the special financing from Castlelake was called out separately. IMO Castlelake gave them extremely favorable terms on those 2 (as opposed to DL not being able to get financing from third parties for the additional 2).


It has nothing to do with favorable terms / DL being unable to get financing, but rather how the deal was structured. Aircraft owned by Castlelake have been bundled into complex securities, so for those two aircraft it wasn't as simple as outright selling them to DL...

lightsaber wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Interesting that all 29 737ERs are coming from a single source, and all 7 of the 359s are coming from a single source. I would expect that Delta got an even better deal on these frames by buying in volume from a lessor, rather than the lessor having to find a collage of homes for their frames.

This simplifies everything for both sides.

Knowing this, I bet other leasing companies will call. While they will obviously try to sell for the best deal, an airline buying is better than most cold calls...

Lightsaber


I'd be surprised if DL's that active in the used aircraft market. Including these aircraft, DL will take delivery of ~80 aircraft next year -- that's a lot of capacity to inject in one year, and sellers are looking to get paid now, not in 2023.


Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:47 pm

For some reason I am looking at VN's first 4 A359... (VN-A886, *887, *888, *889). Some of them are owned by AerCap.
Last edited by Antaras on Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep...and a blue chip airline where the type is a core of its long-term fleet strategy and will invest in onboard product for consistency across its brand.
Makes it easier to place and either get them off your hands or not have to deal with ongoing "churn" of less-stable airlines.

This thought process only applies to the A350 or the Boeing a/c as well? DL does have 737-900ER in their fleet and they just increased the number.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:48 pm

Antaras wrote:
For some reason I am looking at VN's first 4 A359... (VN-A886, *887, *888, *889). All 5 of them are owned by AerCap.


OK? AerCap has 27 A350s in their portflio. https://www.aercap.com/our-business/our-aircraft/ We know these are ex-LATAM, which recently had their leases rejected in bankruptcy.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:50 pm

par13del wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep...and a blue chip airline where the type is a core of its long-term fleet strategy and will invest in onboard product for consistency across its brand.
Makes it easier to place and either get them off your hands or not have to deal with ongoing "churn" of less-stable airlines.

This thought process only applies to the A350 or the Boeing a/c as well? DL does have 737-900ER in their fleet and they just increased the number.


I mean the post is literally on "consistency" - so yes, all aircraft. The big outstanding question is which 739ERs DL is getting and do they have consistent interiors/will need refurb to be similar.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Updated: Used Delta Aircraft Order A359/737-900ER

Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:03 pm

So the 737-800s will be getting both Split Scimitars and the sky interior?
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:09 pm

Continental767 wrote:
Curious to see which Lionair 739ERs Delta picks up. If they are the pre-Sky Interior batch it’ll be interesting to see if DL invests in them to make them match their Sky Interior 739ERs. Regardless, a very savvy purchase that will help immensely to cover all the aircraft they retired last year.

flyinghippo wrote:
I gotta give it to Delta... During this unique time, they found a way to refresh their fleet without paying the premium of new planes. With this move, DL replaced their 777 fleet with barely used A350s, and replenished their narrow body with relatively new 739ERs.

Agree with the sentiment that DL will have their picking of gently used A350s to build their widebody fleet - they might have the simplest WB fleet of all US3 airlines by 2025 - A350, A330Neo/A330, 764. The only question is would this mix be diverse enough to support all of their routes.


It’ll be a simple WB fleet, yes, but not as simple as AA’s 777/787 fleet. That’s as simple as it gets. However, much simpler than their previous arrangement of A330ceo/neo, A359, 763, 764, 77E and 77L.

if they do delta will almost certainly do that, the delta must meet brand standards dna is real
 
dstblj52
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:14 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Good Luck finding more used A350’s. Delta had zero slack in their wide body fleet before. The 777 used market could have been advantageous as far as price availability and capabilities. Now what options do they have A330. Streamlining the fleet was never needed DL had a very diverse fleet and never had trouble with maintenance. Tech Ops has some of the best in the business.

Operating multiple fleet types does cost more money. In training, and maintenance as you have to stock more parts.

It’s a proven industry fact, the less fleet types, the less costs you have.

depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:06 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
Was out at VCV over the weekend, nothing really ‘new’ to add but A359 N575DZ (ex LATAM PR-XTK) has the ‘LATAM’ tiles on the fuselage painted over. Everything else, including the winglets and tail, have not yet been debranded and still retain the LATAM livery.

In addition, the new registration (N575DZ) has been temporarily applied over the old one until they can get the jet into a paint hangar (not sure if it’ll be at VCV or somewhere else of Delta’s choosing) for the full Delta livery.


Yep, that is what's happening. N575DZ and N571DZ (ex-PR-XTF) have been handed over to Delta within the past few weeks. Interesting that they were never actually flown by LATAM Brasil in revenue service, having both been built in September 2019 and ferried directly to QR where they served only 6 months before being grounded due to the pandemic in March 2020. This pair qualify as "cream puffs" due to their very low time and cycles that's less than their 2.1-year individual ages.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines
 
Boof02671
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:23 am

dstblj52 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Good Luck finding more used A350’s. Delta had zero slack in their wide body fleet before. The 777 used market could have been advantageous as far as price availability and capabilities. Now what options do they have A330. Streamlining the fleet was never needed DL had a very diverse fleet and never had trouble with maintenance. Tech Ops has some of the best in the business.

Operating multiple fleet types does cost more money. In training, and maintenance as you have to stock more parts.

It’s a proven industry fact, the less fleet types, the less costs you have.

depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense

Not true. I worked in Maintenance (Stores) simplified fleets reduced parts, spares, and maintenance costs. I worked and loved it for 20 years. It also reduces pilot and flight attendant training costs.

Many states make airlines pay tax on parts inventory. PA was one of them. So once a year multiple parts were moved lot of PA to other distribution centers or sold and bought back to avoid paying the taxes on parts.

Airlines stock billions of dollars of parts. Less fleet type and more commonality is less parts to have on hand and more interchangeable.

Look at AA: Airbus 320 family, 787s, 738s and 777. They reduced their costs tremendously by simplifying the fleet.

B6: A320 family, E190s (which are leaving the fleet) amd A220s
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:35 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:

lightsaber wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Interesting that all 29 737ERs are coming from a single source, and all 7 of the 359s are coming from a single source. I would expect that Delta got an even better deal on these frames by buying in volume from a lessor, rather than the lessor having to find a collage of homes for their frames.

This simplifies everything for both sides.

Knowing this, I bet other leasing companies will call. While they will obviously try to sell for the best deal, an airline buying is better than most cold calls...

Lightsaber


I'd be surprised if DL's that active in the used aircraft market. Including these aircraft, DL will take delivery of ~80 aircraft next year -- that's a lot of capacity to inject in one year, and sellers are looking to get paid now, not in 2023.

With replacement and the huge retirements, DL will talk. I think with narrowbody aircraft there are many opportunities. With negative interest rates, leasing companies will be happy to place on good terms. A350s? Only really good deals with some quantity to help ease planning to conform to standard.

But narrowbodies in a low interest rate environment after retiring so many and the ability to replace old with new (ish) cheap? DL should keep looking. Only buy on outstanding deals, but look.
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
bigb
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:43 am

dstblj52 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Good Luck finding more used A350’s. Delta had zero slack in their wide body fleet before. The 777 used market could have been advantageous as far as price availability and capabilities. Now what options do they have A330. Streamlining the fleet was never needed DL had a very diverse fleet and never had trouble with maintenance. Tech Ops has some of the best in the business.

Operating multiple fleet types does cost more money. In training, and maintenance as you have to stock more parts.

It’s a proven industry fact, the less fleet types, the less costs you have.

depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense


Negative, having multi-KE fleet types adds additional complexities thus equal additional costs. The major way of balancing out those additional complexityand costs is by having a large enough fleet of each type to make the investment worthwhile. Once a airline streamlines its fleet and limits the number of types is when massive costs savings and operating flexibility can be had. (Parts, Qualifications of MX personnel, Aircraft subs are easy, flight training of pilots is straight forward, maintaining crews, etc etc).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:37 am

Boof02671 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Operating multiple fleet types does cost more money. In training, and maintenance as you have to stock more parts.

It’s a proven industry fact, the less fleet types, the less costs you have.

depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense

Not true. I worked in Maintenance (Stores) simplified fleets reduced parts, spares, and maintenance costs. I worked and loved it for 20 years. It also reduces pilot and flight attendant training costs.

Many states make airlines pay tax on parts inventory. PA was one of them. So once a year multiple parts were moved lot of PA to other distribution centers or sold and bought back to avoid paying the taxes on parts.

Airlines stock billions of dollars of parts. Less fleet type and more commonality is less parts to have on hand and more interchangeable.

Look at AA: Airbus 320 family, 787s, 738s and 777. They reduced their costs tremendously by simplifying the fleet.

B6: A320 family, E190s (which are leaving the fleet) amd A220s

DL is simplifying its fleet and is starting to look very similar to AA: Airbus A320 Family, Boeing 737s, Boeing 767s, Airbus A330s and A350s. 4 families like AA.
The 757s are the big question: how long will they stay?
I am putting the A220s (and 717) aside as they are below what AA has in their fleet. Actually, having that 5th platform give DL extra flexibility for thin market and leave the A320s/737s for bigger markets (the Boeing 717s are on their way out anyway).

Given the numerous markets international airlines such as AA and DL operate, you cannot have a "one size fits all" and sometimes an extra type is needed.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:40 am

bigb wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Operating multiple fleet types does cost more money. In training, and maintenance as you have to stock more parts.

It’s a proven industry fact, the less fleet types, the less costs you have.

depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense


Negative, having multi-KE fleet types adds additional complexities thus equal additional costs. The major way of balancing out those additional complexityand costs is by having a large enough fleet of each type to make the investment worthwhile. Once a airline streamlines its fleet and limits the number of types is when massive costs savings and operating flexibility can be had. (Parts, Qualifications of MX personnel, Aircraft subs are easy, flight training of pilots is straight forward, maintaining crews, etc etc).

I am only suggesting DL buy types they already opperate, with enough commonality to not impose poor economics (engines, cockpits, enough of the interior compatible to not create a nightmare). If bought in decent size lots, it will work.

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
bigb
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:42 am

lightsaber wrote:
bigb wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
depends what you pay for the aircraft, buying used can make it make sense


Negative, having multi-KE fleet types adds additional complexities thus equal additional costs. The major way of balancing out those additional complexityand costs is by having a large enough fleet of each type to make the investment worthwhile. Once a airline streamlines its fleet and limits the number of types is when massive costs savings and operating flexibility can be had. (Parts, Qualifications of MX personnel, Aircraft subs are easy, flight training of pilots is straight forward, maintaining crews, etc etc).

I am only suggesting DL buy types they already opperate, with enough commonality to not impose poor economics (engines, cockpits, enough of the interior compatible to not create a nightmare). If bought in decent size lots, it will work.

Lightsaber


I know that you are, my post was in response to dstblj52
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Rumor: Used Delta Aircraft Order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:21 am

lightsaber wrote:
With replacement and the huge retirements, DL will talk. I think with narrowbody aircraft there are many opportunities. With negative interest rates, leasing companies will be happy to place on good terms. A350s? Only really good deals with some quantity to help ease planning to conform to standard.

But narrowbodies in a low interest rate environment after retiring so many and the ability to replace old with new (ish) cheap? DL should keep looking. Only buy on outstanding deals, but look.


These are the fallacies I was referring to earlier. Let's talk about the "huge" retirements. Pre-COVID, the MD-88 was scheduled to be retired by the end of last year, anyway. Within a matter of weeks, all of its intended replacements (that is, the 321 that were deferred into this year) will be on property. So, that leaves 33 B717, 10 B73G and 27 MD-90 (since it appears all of the A320 will return to service). Collectively, those aircraft contained about 9,300 seats. Next year, DL will take delivery of 29 B739 and 18 321NEO; this year and next, DL will take delivery of 7 A220-100 and 12 A220-300. Collectively, those aircraft will contain about 11,000 seats. Thus, by the end of next year, DL will have more narrowbody capacity that it had pre-COVID! If DL needs additional domestic lift, there's huge slack in the widebody fleet, and that's not going to change next year. And I did the math earlier, but by the end of 2025, when the 763 are phased out, DL will have slightly more widebody capacity than it had pre-COVID. And that's around the time the most bullish forecasts project long-haul to match 2019 levels. [Note that some of the delivery slots for the 25 NEO options DL picked up may be next year, so there may actually be far more capacity on property.]

Something else to ponder: pre-COVID, between 2020-2022, DL was expected to take delivery of 53 A220 and 82 321NEO (the 321CEO were to replace the MD-88, so I'm not including those). The only known retirements were the 27 MD-90. Let's be frank: there's absolutely no way DL was going to grow at that rate; it's almost unquestionable that some of the 717, 320 and 757, and the subfleet of 73G, were always scheduled to be phased out. The 73G was a tiny subfleet (which could be logistically challenging at times), the aircraft were ~10yo, still had some value but were made expendable by A223 deliveries. It's very possible that DL was shopping the subfleet around. As I mentioned earlier, the amount of widebody capacity on order exceeded that of the entire 763+764 fleet -- credible rumors indicated DL was shopping some of the younger 763 frames around, and the 763 would not receive upgraded cabins. Thus, it's probable that the 763 were always intended to be retired by mid-decade. And the 717... I started a thread on the type in late 2019 -> there were credible rumors that DL had opted not to move forward with updates and would begin returning aircraft to Boeing. Elsewhere it was noted, very early in 2020, that pilot lines for the 717 were decreasing YOY.

My point is that DL was making changes to its fleet -- we just don't know what they were. COVID gave DL an opportunity to accelerate these changes, and re-shape its fleet for the long-term future. But when you consider facts, DL is not short of capacity. That said... if DL is presented with a deal it couldn't refuse, I fully expect it to take advantage of it.

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