Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Boof02671 wrote:Interesting they use VP registering then in the Virgin Islands for their ferry flights.
MIflyer12 wrote:Have you got a calc of the the systemwide ASMs DL is scheduled to fly in, say, May 2022 vs. May 2019?
flee wrote:Boof02671 wrote:Interesting they use VP registering then in the Virgin Islands for their ferry flights.
I suspect that the registration was done by the owner/lessor of the aircraft as they were repossessed.
FlyingMSY wrote:DL757NYC wrote:B757Forever wrote:
Delta 757 ship 691 was built for Shanghai but not delivered. It had placards in both English and Mandarin until it was reworked.
I remember that plane it has signs in another language. The deals I remember most were the ex TW birds they bought and the Shanghai birds
There's also ex-Singapore Airlines 757s (although by now they've been retired as well... N750, 51, 52, and 57AT respectively.) But other than those and one lone AM example, there aren't any other foreign 757s that were in DL's service.
DL757NYC wrote:FlyingMSY wrote:DL757NYC wrote:
I remember that plane it has signs in another language. The deals I remember most were the ex TW birds they bought and the Shanghai birds
There's also ex-Singapore Airlines 757s (although by now they've been retired as well... N750, 51, 52, and 57AT respectively.) But other than those and one lone AM example, there aren't any other foreign 757s that were in DL's service.
I remember those Singapore birds. They had ash trays on the door to the lava. What was the deal with the ex AM 757 it was a low cycle aircraft. How many is AM have?
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:Pre-loved B737-9GP/ER Fleet Updates as of September 11, 2021:
Previous Reg No. / MSN / Line No./ Exit Date from Lion Air Group / Current Registration
1. 9M-LNH 38732 / 4484 19 May 2021 VP-CFU Castlelake
2. 9M-LNJ 38690 / 4495 14 May 2021 VP-CFD Castlelake
3. 9M-LNK 38737 / 4600 29 June 2021 N950DA Delta Air Lines
4. 9M-LNL 38736 / 4592 28 June 2021 N949DK Delta Air Lines
5. HS-LTH 38739 / 4657 12 July 2021 VP-CFX Castlelake
6. HS-LTJ 39823 / 5070 12 July 2021 VP-CIK Castlelake
7. HS-LTK 38304 / 5162 13 July 2021 VP-CEL Castlelake
8. HS-LTL 38748 / 4822 11 July 2021 VP-CIE Castlelake
21 more to go.
Source: airfleets.net
audidudi wrote:Latest ex-LATAM A359s movements...(courtesy of skyliner-aviation.net):
Airbus A350-941 48 PR-XTE Latam Brasil ferried 10 Sept 2021 GRU-VCV, for Delta Air Lines, ex A7-AMC
Airbus A350-941 200 PR-XTH/F-WJKI Airbus (AerCap) ferried 10 Sept 2021 LDE-VCV, Latam c/s, for Delta Air Lines, ex F-WZFB
tvh wrote:Looks like Delta will also get a ex South africa airways a350 ( msn245 )
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a350-245.htm
audidudi wrote:tvh wrote:Looks like Delta will also get a ex South africa airways a350 ( msn245 )
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a350-245.htm
And will become the first, and only thus far, A350 to have its third livery in 3 years...Hainan, South African and Delta!
audidudi wrote:tvh wrote:Looks like Delta will also get a ex South africa airways a350 ( msn245 )
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a350-245.htm
And will become the first, and only thus far, A350 to have its third livery in 3 years...Hainan, South African and Delta!
777Mech wrote:audidudi wrote:tvh wrote:Looks like Delta will also get a ex South africa airways a350 ( msn245 )
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a350-245.htm
And will become the first, and only thus far, A350 to have its third livery in 3 years...Hainan, South African and Delta!
Anyone know where this bird is stored?
audidudi wrote:Last reported at TEV (Teruel, Spain). https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ZSSDD
audidudi wrote:tvh wrote:Looks like Delta will also get a ex South africa airways a350 ( msn245 )
https://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a350-245.htm
And will become the first, and only thus far, A350 to have its third livery in 3 years...Hainan, South African and Delta!
SteelChair wrote:Interesting on so many levels.
I wonder what their projections are for international premium travel recovery? I thought it was going to take years to recover....?
And then there is the fact that they are buying used widebodies. Although Richard bought some, I recall him saying in interviews that the economics for used widebodies was much different than for narrowbodies, and thus he preferred new widebodies. But perhaps the projected traffic recovery is SO low amd there are so many available that this is true bargain basement pricing which they just can't disregard.
And then there is the turnabout at Airbus. It seems like "4 engines 4 the long haul" was just yesterday And now they have the world's most efficient large twin (at least that's their marketing hype).
Finally, as others have said, I'm sure the RR/Techops agreement is playing a huge part in thes A350 acquisitions.
jbs2886 wrote:SteelChair wrote:Interesting on so many levels.
I wonder what their projections are for international premium travel recovery? I thought it was going to take years to recover....?
And then there is the fact that they are buying used widebodies. Although Richard bought some, I recall him saying in interviews that the economics for used widebodies was much different than for narrowbodies, and thus he preferred new widebodies. But perhaps the projected traffic recovery is SO low amd there are so many available that this is true bargain basement pricing which they just can't disregard.
And then there is the turnabout at Airbus. It seems like "4 engines 4 the long haul" was just yesterday And now they have the world's most efficient large twin (at least that's their marketing hype).
Finally, as others have said, I'm sure the RR/Techops agreement is playing a huge part in thes A350 acquisitions.
My guess is the calculations aren't simple, but can be summarized in a few points: (1) acquisition cost is very low and the lessors would much rather lease to DL for maybe less than to many (most?) other carriers that are higher risk, (2) DL anticipates either a solid recovery and/or anticipates capturing some market share, (3) DL's competitors are increasingly operating ULHish (e.g., India, Singapore, etc.) and the A350 is the only capable aircraft DL currently has in the fleet or planned, (4) DL is hedging that it can offload 767-300ERs pretty quickly to the cargo market or use as flex capacity domestically if the second point doesn't work out. I'd also note that DL competitively may need the new A350 to "flex up" competitively as UA and AA have significant widebody deliveries/existing aircraft parked to reactivate (recognizing the UA 777 PW issue); DL retired a fair amount and has reactivated all/almost all with a smaller amount (though still decent) new deliveries.
SESGDL wrote:jbs2886 wrote:SteelChair wrote:Interesting on so many levels.
I wonder what their projections are for international premium travel recovery? I thought it was going to take years to recover....?
And then there is the fact that they are buying used widebodies. Although Richard bought some, I recall him saying in interviews that the economics for used widebodies was much different than for narrowbodies, and thus he preferred new widebodies. But perhaps the projected traffic recovery is SO low amd there are so many available that this is true bargain basement pricing which they just can't disregard.
And then there is the turnabout at Airbus. It seems like "4 engines 4 the long haul" was just yesterday And now they have the world's most efficient large twin (at least that's their marketing hype).
Finally, as others have said, I'm sure the RR/Techops agreement is playing a huge part in thes A350 acquisitions.
My guess is the calculations aren't simple, but can be summarized in a few points: (1) acquisition cost is very low and the lessors would much rather lease to DL for maybe less than to many (most?) other carriers that are higher risk, (2) DL anticipates either a solid recovery and/or anticipates capturing some market share, (3) DL's competitors are increasingly operating ULHish (e.g., India, Singapore, etc.) and the A350 is the only capable aircraft DL currently has in the fleet or planned, (4) DL is hedging that it can offload 767-300ERs pretty quickly to the cargo market or use as flex capacity domestically if the second point doesn't work out. I'd also note that DL competitively may need the new A350 to "flex up" competitively as UA and AA have significant widebody deliveries/existing aircraft parked to reactivate (recognizing the UA 777 PW issue); DL retired a fair amount and has reactivated all/almost all with a smaller amount (though still decent) new deliveries.
Certainly true for UA, but DL actually now has a larger widebody fleet than AA and no significant difference in future widebody commitments. DL and AA will absolutely be at a disadvantage to UA if international travel demand returns quickly.
Jeremy
jbs2886 wrote:SESGDL wrote:jbs2886 wrote:
Edit, per AA's latest 10-Q 787 deliveries: 2021 - 11; 2022 - 2; 2023 - 11 https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 4930837146
dalmit wrote:audidudi wrote:Last reported at TEV (Teruel, Spain). https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ZSSDD
And here is a picture of her from v1images. com - https://www.v1images.com/product/south- ... 41-zs-sdd/
I see where the lessor (Avolon) has this one and another one (formerly ZS-SDC). Both are post Line Number 219 aka 280t.
FlyHPN wrote:dalmit wrote:audidudi wrote:Last reported at TEV (Teruel, Spain). https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ZSSDD
And here is a picture of her from v1images. com - https://www.v1images.com/product/south- ... 41-zs-sdd/
I see where the lessor (Avolon) has this one and another one (formerly ZS-SDC). Both are post Line Number 219 aka 280t.
Maybe I’m reading too much into this news, but to me the plot is thickening. The DL press release clearly states the 7 we’re coming from AerCap (https://news.delta.com/delta-add-airbus ... d-recovery) so is this Avalon bird in addition to the 7 (there were other rumors more could come), or is this a replacement? Time will tell I suppose.
usdcaguy wrote:DL's approach to enlarging their fleet seems to be to buy as many used aircraft as possible, fix them up and then buy only what they have to buy from the manufacturers. This isn't a bad idea, because it saves them a ton of money. They profited by leasing used 717s from WN who wanted to dump the aircraft, which gave them the right airframes for secondary markets that needed smaller aircraft. Buying used also gets Delta aircraft more quickly than if they wait for a brand new order. This approach tends to age the fleet more quickly, but that happens over a number of years. Most passengers never notice the difference. They do notice, however, that many of DL's international aircraft are aging, and however much some people like the 2-3-2 seating on the 767, many prefer the seemingly newer 777s flown by foreign carriers, especially in business. Those passengers will likely appreciate the new A350s.
SESGDL wrote:DL and AA will absolutely be at a disadvantage to UA if international travel demand returns quickly.
Vicenza wrote:
But that was a marketing slogan for Virgin Atlantic......not Airbus.
n9801f wrote:SESGDL wrote:DL and AA will absolutely be at a disadvantage to UA if international travel demand returns quickly.
Maybe DL's international widebody fleet should be smaller than UA's because of its route structure?
MIflyer12 wrote:n9801f wrote:UA, in contrast, said even pre-covid it wanted more domestic lift. More widebodies (vs. YE 2019) at DL just means lower ROI.
If anybody thinks UA has a great fleet mix, answer where all those widebodies are going to be used to earn 16% margins for the next two years. Hawaii isn't it.
lightsaber wrote:usdcaguy wrote:DL's approach to enlarging their fleet seems to be to buy as many used aircraft as possible, fix them up and then buy only what they have to buy from the manufacturers. This isn't a bad idea, because it saves them a ton of money. They profited by leasing used 717s from WN who wanted to dump the aircraft, which gave them the right airframes for secondary markets that needed smaller aircraft. Buying used also gets Delta aircraft more quickly than if they wait for a brand new order. This approach tends to age the fleet more quickly, but that happens over a number of years. Most passengers never notice the difference. They do notice, however, that many of DL's international aircraft are aging, and however much some people like the 2-3-2 seating on the 767, many prefer the seemingly newer 777s flown by foreign carriers, especially in business. Those passengers will likely appreciate the new A350s.
Delta, in my opinion, during normal times, has 3 narrowbody fleets.
1. Fleet of highly utilized. This was in the past 739 and reason behind A321NEO.
2. A mid utilization fleet that Delta tends to but used, but for the right price will buy new. e.g., A220.
3. A low utilization fleet that is hand me down aircraft or used. The 717 is the poster child of these purchases, but also the long time utilization of DC-9s and MD-80s and a fine use of older A320s, for example.
There is not consistent demand every day of the week nor every season. (See Allegiant business model). I recommend the December 2019 management presentation.
https://ir.allegiantair.com/presentations
You might note: but that isn't Delta. True. But they operate some fraction of the fleet low utilization. That is what they buy used. The 739s can be used in all three cases until enough A321NEOs ate in the fleet. The high utilization portion is why we speculate on some MAX orders.
Thanks to TechOps, DL manages the maintenance variable cost well. But new is lower cost in high utilization. A network airline sees all aspects of low utilization (this is the Breeze model too, once they have new aircraft, start low utilization and then with efficient, more frequency):
https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/02/10/dav ... ect-plans/
Delta's aircraft purchases are well thought out. In this case, there are not many potential 739ER or A350 buyers today. So delta probably received excellent deals in an overall weak market:
viewtopic.php?t=1460947
I personally expect one large new order from Delta for the high utilization fleet. That is betting on a recovery. We have another thread for that discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1465113
I do expect DL to opportunistically continue buying used. But a mix of new and used for reducing fuel and maintenance costs.
Lightsaber
n9801f wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:n9801f wrote:UA, in contrast, said even pre-covid it wanted more domestic lift. More widebodies (vs. YE 2019) at DL just means lower ROI.
If anybody thinks UA has a great fleet mix, answer where all those widebodies are going to be used to earn 16% margins for the next two years. Hawaii isn't it.
Moreover I'd be pleasantly surprised if many DL widebodies will be earning 16%.
And I'd be careful extrapolating DL domestic to UA. Many DL hubs are in smaller O&D cities (e.g. DTW vs. ORD, SLC vs. DEN) and also don't participate in the primary US east-west flows to the same extent as UA. For instance today I find 2x DL SAN-DTW vs. 5x UA SAN-ORD. This has pluses and minuses but probably means DL has worse options to fill big planes in those hubs.
SESGDL wrote:SAN-DTW overflies two other DL hubs, not a good example to try to use. Your whole argument is poor as DL has no fewer O&D passengers in its network than UA (DL actually has more as it carries significantly more passengers than UA), it’s just that UA’s are more heavily concentrated at its hubs.
SESGDL wrote:Also, why have you removed AA from the discussion when I clearly highlighted that BOTH AA and DL have fewer widebodies than UA? Surely AA should need more widebodies than DL given its significantly larger presence in major O&D cities just like UA; right? Shows a poorly crafted logic. The answer is that UA is overburdened with too many widebody aircraft and AA and DL have been more aggressive with removing excess capacity. I think UA will shed some aircraft in the not too distant future (I don’t think all those 777s are coming back).
dalmit wrote:
audidudi wrote:dalmit wrote:
Along with PK-LBG and PK-LBH!
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PKLBG
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PKLBH
Anyone know about their 3 others...PK-LBJ, PK-LBM and PK-LBO...are these coming to Delta also?
lightsaber wrote:usdcaguy wrote:DL's approach to enlarging their fleet seems to be to buy as many used aircraft as possible, fix them up and then buy only what they have to buy from the manufacturers. This isn't a bad idea, because it saves them a ton of money. They profited by leasing used 717s from WN who wanted to dump the aircraft, which gave them the right airframes for secondary markets that needed smaller aircraft. Buying used also gets Delta aircraft more quickly than if they wait for a brand new order. This approach tends to age the fleet more quickly, but that happens over a number of years. Most passengers never notice the difference. They do notice, however, that many of DL's international aircraft are aging, and however much some people like the 2-3-2 seating on the 767, many prefer the seemingly newer 777s flown by foreign carriers, especially in business. Those passengers will likely appreciate the new A350s.
Delta, in my opinion, during normal times, has 3 narrowbody fleets.
1. Fleet of highly utilized. This was in the past 739 and reason behind A321NEO.
2. A mid utilization fleet that Delta tends to but used, but for the right price will buy new. e.g., A220.
3. A low utilization fleet that is hand me down aircraft or used. The 717 is the poster child of these purchases, but also the long time utilization of DC-9s and MD-80s and a fine use of older A320s, for example.
There is not consistent demand every day of the week nor every season. (See Allegiant business model). I recommend the December 2019 management presentation.
https://ir.allegiantair.com/presentations
You might note: but that isn't Delta. True. But they operate some fraction of the fleet low utilization. That is what they buy used. The 739s can be used in all three cases until enough A321NEOs ate in the fleet. The high utilization portion is why we speculate on some MAX orders.
Thanks to TechOps, DL manages the maintenance variable cost well. But new is lower cost in high utilization. A network airline sees all aspects of low utilization (this is the Breeze model too, once they have new aircraft, start low utilization and then with efficient, more frequency):
https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/02/10/dav ... ect-plans/
Delta's aircraft purchases are well thought out. In this case, there are not many potential 739ER or A350 buyers today. So delta probably received excellent deals in an overall weak market:
viewtopic.php?t=1460947
I personally expect one large new order from Delta for the high utilization fleet. That is betting on a recovery. We have another thread for that discussion:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1465113
I do expect DL to opportunistically continue buying used. But a mix of new and used for reducing fuel and maintenance costs.
Lightsaber
Lootess wrote:We are in this period where if recovery continues you don't want to be the last airline holding the bag and not in-line for plane deliveries when the recovery is in full steam.