hannah9898 wrote:

asuflyer wrote:

The first 739 due for DL, 9M-LNL exited the Malindo fleet today arriving in HNL from KUL via GUM.

Next one I expect is ex:

Batik PK-LBG, LBH, LBI, LBJ, LBM, LBO
Malindo 9M-LNF-LNK
Thai Lion: HS-LTH-LTZ (10 or 12 still leased to JT ahead of Delta acquired)

Notes: All were manufatured between 2013 and 2016 jets and leasing will expired the date it was delivered. This is probably because JT is reducing network in Thailand while Batik is transition to all Airbus fleet in 2022 or 2023 - so I bet OD will re-delivered all 738 from ID and replace the 739.

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

asuflyer wrote:

The first 739 due for DL, 9M-LNL exited the Malindo fleet today arriving in HNL from KUL via GUM.

Here is a photo of 9M-LNL arriving at HNL https://www.instagram.com/p/CRkuDKUMpKM ... tc7Vxcc1bI

WidebodyPTV wrote:

hannah9898 wrote:

asuflyer wrote:

The first 739 due for DL, 9M-LNL exited the Malindo fleet today arriving in HNL from KUL via GUM.

Next one I expect is ex:

Batik PK-LBG, LBH, LBI, LBJ, LBM, LBO
Malindo 9M-LNF-LNK
Thai Lion: HS-LTH-LTZ (10 or 12 still leased to JT ahead of Delta acquired)

Notes: All were manufatured between 2013 and 2016 jets and leasing will expired the date it was delivered. This is probably because JT is reducing network in Thailand while Batik is transition to all Airbus fleet in 2022 or 2023 - so I bet OD will re-delivered all 738 from ID and replace the 739.

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

Yes, I would agree with you. I think at current juncture, the B739ER fleet that will be going to DL is highly speculative. Within Lion Air Group there are 95 of them, we won't know which are the ones leaving or which are not leaving their fleet to join DL. However the general consensus in Malaysia is that OD will go all B738 moving forward if they do restore their operation. Currently OD operation is entirely crippled by the pandemic and not operating any flight, even turboprop domestic flight. Last year they returned 17 B738 to Lion Air, leaving 13 ATR 72, 5 B738 and 6 739ER.

atlflyer wrote:

audidudi wrote:

HB-IWC wrote:

Malindo (OD) has 6 aircraft in the fleet, Batik (ID) also has 6, all 12 of these in a 2-class layout. Thai Lion (SL) has just 5 in a mono-class layout. That would account for 17 aircraft in total.

So this is the list of the 17 frames...

Thai Lion Air (5)
HS-LTH
HS-LTJ
HS-LTK
HS-LTL
HS-LTT

Batik Air (6)
PK-LBG
PK-LBH
PK-LBI
PK-LBJ
PK-LBM
PK-LBO

Malindo Air (6)
9M-LNF
9M-LNG
9M-LNH
9M-LNJ
9M-LNK
9M-LNL

The remaining 12 frames coming from Lion Air could be any of these 15...
PK-LPF
PK-LPH
PK-LPI
PK-LPW
PK-LPY
PK-LSG (ex HS-LTP)
PK-LSH (ex HS-LTY)
PK-LSJ (ex HS-LTQ)
PK-LSK (ex HS-LTR)
PK-LSL (ex HS-LTS)
PK-LSM (ex HS-LTU)
PK-LSO (ex HS-LTV)
PK-LSP (ex HS-LTW)
PK-LSQ (ex HS-LTO)
PK-LSR (ex HS-LTZ)

All are either 6, 7 or 8 years old. Delta will make these look brand new. Guaranteed passengers think the plane is straight from Boeing.

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

Western727 wrote:

atlflyer wrote:

audidudi wrote:

So this is the list of the 17 frames...

Thai Lion Air (5)
HS-LTH
HS-LTJ
HS-LTK
HS-LTL
HS-LTT

Batik Air (6)
PK-LBG
PK-LBH
PK-LBI
PK-LBJ
PK-LBM
PK-LBO

Malindo Air (6)
9M-LNF
9M-LNG
9M-LNH
9M-LNJ
9M-LNK
9M-LNL

The remaining 12 frames coming from Lion Air could be any of these 15...
PK-LPF
PK-LPH
PK-LPI
PK-LPW
PK-LPY
PK-LSG (ex HS-LTP)
PK-LSH (ex HS-LTY)
PK-LSJ (ex HS-LTQ)
PK-LSK (ex HS-LTR)
PK-LSL (ex HS-LTS)
PK-LSM (ex HS-LTU)
PK-LSO (ex HS-LTV)
PK-LSP (ex HS-LTW)
PK-LSQ (ex HS-LTO)
PK-LSR (ex HS-LTZ)

All are either 6, 7 or 8 years old. Delta will make these look brand new. Guaranteed passengers think the plane is straight from Boeing.

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

That will most probably be included in the sales price. Either Castlelake will foot the bill to bring the aircraft to a saleable level (so to the buyers specs) but that will then be included in the sales price or what is more likely that Delta will pay for it but of course already saved that money by lowering the acquisition price due to buying substandard aircraft.

There should be no surprise for DL as they know what they buy, e.g. except the MX standard to be lower than what is normal in the US. This will also be reflective in the acquisition price. The AS-VX deal is a bad reference as AS expected the VX aircraft to be up to general US standards, so it was a surprise when the conditions surfaced.

Often times, its more or less a paperwork / reporting / tracking issue in regards to maintenance deficiencies when acquiring aircraft from airlines in different global regions with lesser regulator scrutiny.

Some of it has to be done as part of the induction process, and getting the aircraft, major components, and rotables into the maintenance tracking systems. If there is questionable documentation or verification on maintenance records, often times the part is swapped out and send out for checks/rework/refurb.

Probably just run them through a C-check at induction and get everything up to speed at that point. Inducting 737NGs is a lot easier than MD90s since the parts pool is exponentially larger, internally and with vendors.

FluidFlow wrote:

Western727 wrote:

atlflyer wrote:

All are either 6, 7 or 8 years old. Delta will make these look brand new. Guaranteed passengers think the plane is straight from Boeing.

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

That will most probably be included in the sales price. Either Castlelake will foot the bill to bring the aircraft to a saleable level (so to the buyers specs) but that will then be included in the sales price or what is more likely that Delta will pay for it but of course already saved that money by lowering the acquisition price due to buying substandard aircraft.

There should be no surprise for DL as they know what they buy, e.g. except the MX standard to be lower than what is normal in the US. This will also be reflective in the acquisition price. The AS-VX deal is a bad reference as AS expected the VX aircraft to be up to general US standards, so it was a surprise when the conditions surfaced.

That is kind of how it worked with the subleased 717s from Southwest, 3 were delivered monthly.

If anything AS was probably more shocked at the VX lease rates, then again a start-up airline versus preferred vendor in the backyard things.

Western727 wrote:

atlflyer wrote:

audidudi wrote:

So this is the list of the 17 frames...

Thai Lion Air (5)
HS-LTH
HS-LTJ
HS-LTK
HS-LTL
HS-LTT

Batik Air (6)
PK-LBG
PK-LBH
PK-LBI
PK-LBJ
PK-LBM
PK-LBO

Malindo Air (6)
9M-LNF
9M-LNG
9M-LNH
9M-LNJ
9M-LNK
9M-LNL

The remaining 12 frames coming from Lion Air could be any of these 15...
PK-LPF
PK-LPH
PK-LPI
PK-LPW
PK-LPY
PK-LSG (ex HS-LTP)
PK-LSH (ex HS-LTY)
PK-LSJ (ex HS-LTQ)
PK-LSK (ex HS-LTR)
PK-LSL (ex HS-LTS)
PK-LSM (ex HS-LTU)
PK-LSO (ex HS-LTV)
PK-LSP (ex HS-LTW)
PK-LSQ (ex HS-LTO)
PK-LSR (ex HS-LTZ)

All are either 6, 7 or 8 years old. Delta will make these look brand new. Guaranteed passengers think the plane is straight from Boeing.

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

As noted several times, deliveries are expected to continue into early next year, and aircraft will be put into service through summer 2023 (that’s not a typo).

Lootess wrote:

FluidFlow wrote:

Western727 wrote:

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

That will most probably be included in the sales price. Either Castlelake will foot the bill to bring the aircraft to a saleable level (so to the buyers specs) but that will then be included in the sales price or what is more likely that Delta will pay for it but of course already saved that money by lowering the acquisition price due to buying substandard aircraft.

There should be no surprise for DL as they know what they buy, e.g. except the MX standard to be lower than what is normal in the US. This will also be reflective in the acquisition price. The AS-VX deal is a bad reference as AS expected the VX aircraft to be up to general US standards, so it was a surprise when the conditions surfaced.

That is kind of how it worked with the subleased 717s from Southwest, 3 were delivered monthly.

If anything AS was probably more shocked at the VX lease rates, then again a start-up airline versus preferred vendor in the backyard things.

Totally different situation that the 717. DL’s paying for and taking delivery of the 739 now, although the aircraft will be staged into service over the next two years.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Western727 wrote:

atlflyer wrote:

All are either 6, 7 or 8 years old. Delta will make these look brand new. Guaranteed passengers think the plane is straight from Boeing.

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

As noted several times, deliveries are expected to continue into early next year, and aircraft will be put into service through summer 2023 (that’s not a typo).

Noted, my original question, though remains: how bad are the LionAir 737s, and how much extra time/$ will DL have to invest to bring these birds to DL standards, like AS had to do with the 32Xs they inherited from VX?

Western727 wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Western727 wrote:

Will it take DL some additional time to bring Lion's 737s to DL mx specs, aside from the interior look-and-feel? I'm referring to Lion's not-great safety reputation, similar to AS discovering that the VX 32Xs were not well maintained and having to spend time and $$ to bring them up to AS standards.

As noted several times, deliveries are expected to continue into early next year, and aircraft will be put into service through summer 2023 (that’s not a typo).

Noted, my original question, though remains: how bad are the LionAir 737s, and how much extra time/$ will DL have to invest to bring these birds to DL standards, like AS had to do with the 32Xs they inherited from VX?

Why everyone is assuming these Lionair birds are in bad shape? These are fairly new birds, some of them may not even had their first D check yet. Lion air flight line maintenance might be bad, in that paper work may not be in order, but depot maintenance are probably done by reputable third party specialists

LDRA wrote:

Why everyone is assuming these Lionair birds are in bad shape? These are fairly new birds, some of them may not even had their first D check yet. Lion air flight line maintenance might be bad, in that paper work may not be in order, but depot maintenance are probably done by reputable third party specialists

Furthermore, they are leased and probably carefully monitored according to terms of the lease agreement.

Also I love the "wet climate" argument about Asia when the acquiring airline is headquartered in the American South. Give me a break.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Lootess wrote:

FluidFlow wrote:

That will most probably be included in the sales price. Either Castlelake will foot the bill to bring the aircraft to a saleable level (so to the buyers specs) but that will then be included in the sales price or what is more likely that Delta will pay for it but of course already saved that money by lowering the acquisition price due to buying substandard aircraft.

There should be no surprise for DL as they know what they buy, e.g. except the MX standard to be lower than what is normal in the US. This will also be reflective in the acquisition price. The AS-VX deal is a bad reference as AS expected the VX aircraft to be up to general US standards, so it was a surprise when the conditions surfaced.

That is kind of how it worked with the subleased 717s from Southwest, 3 were delivered monthly.

If anything AS was probably more shocked at the VX lease rates, then again a start-up airline versus preferred vendor in the backyard things.

Totally different situation that the 717. DL’s paying for and taking delivery of the 739 now, although the aircraft will be staged into service over the next two years.

Not it’s not, interior overhauls were part of the Southwest sublease deal. Read the context next time.

I assume that these 739 s will be fitted with SSW before entry into service.

Lootess wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Lootess wrote:

That is kind of how it worked with the subleased 717s from Southwest, 3 were delivered monthly.

If anything AS was probably more shocked at the VX lease rates, then again a start-up airline versus preferred vendor in the backyard things.

Totally different situation that the 717. DL’s paying for and taking delivery of the 739 now, although the aircraft will be staged into service over the next two years.

Not it’s not, interior overhauls were part of the Southwest sublease deal. Read the context next time.

I did read it -- it's a totally different situation. DL gradually took delivery of the aircraft from WN, WN paid for the cost to convert the planes to DL standards (although Boeing rebated one-third the cost), then DL assumed the lease liabilities. In this case, DL's paying for the planes up front, taking delivery of the planes up front and then converting them to their standards / gradually staging them into service (by summer 2023). It's extremely unlikely Castleake is paying for the cost to convert these planes to DL standards -- that would be reflected in the sales price. It's possible that Castlelake may have guaranteed the planes to meet a certain standard, and credit DL for costs incurred beyond that standard, but that's immaterial.

Exactly.....its a.net fallacy to assume these aircraft are in "bad-shape" and that they are "negligent" in maintenance.
Again, its usually a record-keeping, tracking, serialization, documentation related issue where some rotables and/or components may not tie-out.

Its a matter of induction and getting things up-to-date, into the DL system, with supporting tracking / documentation / check cycles.

Yep.....will be interesting if they do the induction work in ATL or in QRO. They have been running their 739s through QRO for maintenance checks.
Frankly inducting at a rate of 1-2 a month is probably amount all their is capacity available to handle in addition to the maintenance backlog they are still working through coming out of the massive fleet parking during the depth of COVID. Some of the fleet types - particularly the balance of the A319 & 752 fleet still in storage, or have timed-out and gone into storage is trying to get them slotted/scheduled through maintenance checks,

DLASFlyer wrote:

LDRA wrote:

Why everyone is assuming these Lionair birds are in bad shape? These are fairly new birds, some of them may not even had their first D check yet. Lion air flight line maintenance might be bad, in that paper work may not be in order, but depot maintenance are probably done by reputable third party specialists

Furthermore, they are leased and probably carefully monitored according to terms of the lease agreement.

Also I love the "wet climate" argument about Asia when the acquiring airline is headquartered in the American South. Give me a break.

Good to know re: lease and careful monitoring, which makes sense. However, at least some of VX's 32Xs were leased...

In any case, I think it's a fair question given what AS realized after acquiring the VX 32Xs. Add LionAir's not-great safety record, on top of Indonesia's subpar regulatory reputation.

People talk about the 739s from Lion Air as if they were all part of the Indonesian carrier’s fleet. They are from the Lion Air Group which has airlines in Malaysia and Thailand in addition to Indonesia. In fact, the first of the 29 that just arrived in the US was being operated by Malindo in Malaysia..

WidebodyPTV wrote:

hannah9898 wrote:

asuflyer wrote:

The first 739 due for DL, 9M-LNL exited the Malindo fleet today arriving in HNL from KUL via GUM.

Next one I expect is ex:

Batik PK-LBG, LBH, LBI, LBJ, LBM, LBO
Malindo 9M-LNF-LNK
Thai Lion: HS-LTH-LTZ (10 or 12 still leased to JT ahead of Delta acquired)

Notes: All were manufatured between 2013 and 2016 jets and leasing will expired the date it was delivered. This is probably because JT is reducing network in Thailand while Batik is transition to all Airbus fleet in 2022 or 2023 - so I bet OD will re-delivered all 738 from ID and replace the 739.

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

Do you really believe DL has zero say in which planes it buys used? It'd be like you not being able to chose which [insert your favorite vehicle model] from the local used dealer; you will pick and chose which one is the perfect fit for you.
If DL was just told "you will get what we decide", they might end up with a frame that is not economically advantageous (too many hours or cycles, expensive to fix/bring up to specs, etc).

WayexTDI wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

hannah9898 wrote:

Next one I expect is ex:

Batik PK-LBG, LBH, LBI, LBJ, LBM, LBO
Malindo 9M-LNF-LNK
Thai Lion: HS-LTH-LTZ (10 or 12 still leased to JT ahead of Delta acquired)

Notes: All were manufatured between 2013 and 2016 jets and leasing will expired the date it was delivered. This is probably because JT is reducing network in Thailand while Batik is transition to all Airbus fleet in 2022 or 2023 - so I bet OD will re-delivered all 738 from ID and replace the 739.

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

Do you really believe DL has zero say in which planes it buys used? It'd be like you not being able to chose which [insert your favorite vehicle model] from the local used dealer; you will pick and chose which one is the perfect fit for you.
If DL was just told "you will get what we decide", they might end up with a frame that is not economically advantageous (too many hours or cycles, expensive to fix/bring up to specs, etc).

His point was that DL isn't picking from the entire fleet, it is picking from Castlelake jets. So posters need to stop looking at the entire Lion Air Group fleet and making guesses when the critical piece of information as to ownership is missing from that list.

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

VCV would be my guess.

WayexTDI wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

hannah9898 wrote:

Next one I expect is ex:

Batik PK-LBG, LBH, LBI, LBJ, LBM, LBO
Malindo 9M-LNF-LNK
Thai Lion: HS-LTH-LTZ (10 or 12 still leased to JT ahead of Delta acquired)

Notes: All were manufatured between 2013 and 2016 jets and leasing will expired the date it was delivered. This is probably because JT is reducing network in Thailand while Batik is transition to all Airbus fleet in 2022 or 2023 - so I bet OD will re-delivered all 738 from ID and replace the 739.

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

Do you really believe DL has zero say in which planes it buys used? It'd be like you not being able to chose which [insert your favorite vehicle model] from the local used dealer; you will pick and chose which one is the perfect fit for you.
If DL was just told "you will get what we decide", they might end up with a frame that is not economically advantageous (too many hours or cycles, expensive to fix/bring up to specs, etc).

We'll keep this simple: almost all of Lion Air Group's fleet is leased. The lessors, not Lion Air Group, are the legal owner of the aircraft. Lion Air Group wanted to re-negotiate its lease payments; Castlelake - its largest lessor - sought alternate offers for the 739 it owned, and choose DL's offer over Lion Air Group's. You're correct - DL could've agreed to purchase aircraft from another vendor, or it could've chosen to purchase only some of Castlelake's aircraft. But ultimately, it agreed to acquire all of them, and these are the aircraft joining the fleet. The two competing narratives being presented within this thread -- that DL gets to pick the 29 aircraft it wants from Lion Air Group's fleet, or alternatively Lion Air Group gets to give DL the 29 aircraft it least wants - are false.

DL purchased these aircraft; the price of used aircraft is heavily dependent on the aircraft's operating history (# of cycles / hours ... has it been in any accidents ... what type of climate does it operate in ... etc.) and maintenance history. Castlelake's leasing agreements almost undoubtedly specified minimum maintenance requirements, and I'm certain there's some level of enforcement. DL may have received some very limited warranty from Castlake, but that's about it.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

They don't get to pick the jets -- it's the ones already owned by Castlelake.

For example, in its article covering the purchase, FG identified PK-LJT (a 2012 build) as one of the aircraft owned by CL.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 15.article

Do you really believe DL has zero say in which planes it buys used? It'd be like you not being able to chose which [insert your favorite vehicle model] from the local used dealer; you will pick and chose which one is the perfect fit for you.
If DL was just told "you will get what we decide", they might end up with a frame that is not economically advantageous (too many hours or cycles, expensive to fix/bring up to specs, etc).

We'll keep this simple: almost all of Lion Air Group's fleet is leased. The lessors, not Lion Air Group, are the legal owner of the aircraft. Lion Air Group wanted to re-negotiate its lease payments; Castlelake - its largest lessor - sought alternate offers for the 739 it owned, and choose DL's offer over Lion Air Group's. You're correct - DL could've agreed to purchase aircraft from another vendor, or it could've chosen to purchase only some of Castlelake's aircraft. But ultimately, it agreed to acquire all of them, and these are the aircraft joining the fleet. The two competing narratives being presented within this thread -- that DL gets to pick the 29 aircraft it wants from Lion Air Group's fleet, or alternatively Lion Air Group gets to give DL the 29 aircraft it least wants - are false.

DL purchased these aircraft; the price of used aircraft is heavily dependent on the aircraft's operating history (# of cycles / hours ... has it been in any accidents ... what type of climate does it operate in ... etc.) and maintenance history. Castlelake's leasing agreements almost undoubtedly specified minimum maintenance requirements, and I'm certain there's some level of enforcement. DL may have received some very limited warranty from Castlake, but that's about it.

Agree with this narrative; previous one was confusing.

DLASFlyer wrote:

LDRA wrote:

Why everyone is assuming these Lionair birds are in bad shape? These are fairly new birds, some of them may not even had their first D check yet. Lion air flight line maintenance might be bad, in that paper work may not be in order, but depot maintenance are probably done by reputable third party specialists

Furthermore, they are leased and probably carefully monitored according to terms of the lease agreement.

Also I love the "wet climate" argument about Asia when the acquiring airline is headquartered in the American South. Give me a break.

At least some of these are coming from FAA Category 2 countries, meaning that extra money will be needed to bring the aircraft to Category 1 standards. A similar example recently was when Nolinor bought some B732s from TAAG Angola Airlines, to use as flying examples (Nolinor also installed new glass cockpits).

LDRA wrote:

Western727 wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

As noted several times, deliveries are expected to continue into early next year, and aircraft will be put into service through summer 2023 (that’s not a typo).

Noted, my original question, though remains: how bad are the LionAir 737s, and how much extra time/$ will DL have to invest to bring these birds to DL standards, like AS had to do with the 32Xs they inherited from VX?

Why everyone is assuming these Lionair birds are in bad shape? These are fairly new birds, some of them may not even had their first D check yet. Lion air flight line maintenance might be bad, in that paper work may not be in order, but depot maintenance are probably done by reputable third party specialists

Depot Maintenance is probably done by the lowest bidder, some of whom will be good and some of whom will not be. The question when getting jets like this is its unclear what shape their really going to be in, they may be in excellent shape they may not be and given lions general reputation i would bet more will not be then will be

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

I’ll guarantee that these Lion Air jets will be in better shape than the Eastern Air Lines jets Delta took in 1991/1992.

timf wrote:

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

VCV would be my guess.

Delta doesn’t use the MRO at VCV.

harleydriver wrote:

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

Delta pilots aren’t allowed to fly planes that aren’t on their operating certificate.

dstblj52 wrote:

Depot Maintenance is probably done by the lowest bidder, some of whom will be good and some of whom will not be. The question when getting jets like this is its unclear what shape their really going to be in, they may be in excellent shape they may not be and given lions general reputation i would bet more will not be then will be

It's a given that DL inspected the aircraft before signing a purchase agreement, just as you or I would have an independent mechanic inspect a used vehicle before signing a purchase agreement.

One key point is that Lion Air Group did not own the aircraft, they were leasing them - and the lessor is going to require a certain level of maintenance. Lion Air Group has a poor reputation for safety, but it's mostly a derivative of poorly trained and overworked crews, not wholly over maintenance.

harleydriver wrote:

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

Per APC, where the information initially came from, it's being flown by a Malindo Air crew with a DL crew performing acceptance checks en route. The reason we found out about the delivery flight is because the poster on APC overheard the DL crew talking about it .

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

According to both FlightAware and FR24, she has landed at SBD...interesting that FR24 has the first part of the reg reversed!

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/9MLNL

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

DL_Mech wrote:

I’ll guarantee that these Lion Air jets will be in better shape than the Eastern Air Lines jets Delta took in 1991/1992.

Yes sir. I was a gate agent then and you didn't want one of things easing into your gate.

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

PM wrote:

So ...

PR-XTF (msn 064) becomes N571DZ and PR-XTK (msn 282) becomes N575DZ. Both are leased from AerCap.

That would suggest ...

msn 200 PR-XTH becomes N572DZ
msn 250 PR-XTI becomes N573DZ
msn 265 PR-XTJ becomes N574DZ

The other two AerCap leases are msn 048 PR-XTE (N570DZ?) and msn 313 PR-XTL (N576DZ?)

I'm just guessing, of course.

Riding on your post:
1. PR-XTE (MSN 048) becomes N570DZ
2. PR-XTF (MSN 064) becomes N571DZ
3. PR-XTH (MSN 200) becomes N572DZ
4. PR-XTI (MSN 250) becomes N573DZ
5. PR-XTJ (MSN 265) becomes N574DZ
6. PR-XTK (MSN 282) becomes N575DZ
7. PR-XTL (MSN 313) becomes N576DZ

These will leave the following LATAM A350s looking for new customers:
1. PR-XTA (MSN 024) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
2. PR-XTB (MSN 027) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
3. PR-XTC (MSN 035) Pilar I Leasing Limited
4. PR-XTD (MSN 045) Pilar I Leasing Limited
5. PR-XTG (MSN 079) Pilar I Leasing Limited
6. PR-XTM (MSN 363) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company

Sharing this earlier post with you as it got buried in the thread.

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

PM wrote:

So ...

PR-XTF (msn 064) becomes N571DZ and PR-XTK (msn 282) becomes N575DZ. Both are leased from AerCap.

That would suggest ...

msn 200 PR-XTH becomes N572DZ
msn 250 PR-XTI becomes N573DZ
msn 265 PR-XTJ becomes N574DZ

The other two AerCap leases are msn 048 PR-XTE (N570DZ?) and msn 313 PR-XTL (N576DZ?)

I'm just guessing, of course.

Riding on your post:
1. PR-XTE (MSN 048) becomes N570DZ
2. PR-XTF (MSN 064) becomes N571DZ
3. PR-XTH (MSN 200) becomes N572DZ
4. PR-XTI (MSN 250) becomes N573DZ
5. PR-XTJ (MSN 265) becomes N574DZ
6. PR-XTK (MSN 282) becomes N575DZ
7. PR-XTL (MSN 313) becomes N576DZ

These will leave the following LATAM A350s looking for new customers:
1. PR-XTA (MSN 024) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
2. PR-XTB (MSN 027) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
3. PR-XTC (MSN 035) Pilar I Leasing Limited
4. PR-XTD (MSN 045) Pilar I Leasing Limited
5. PR-XTG (MSN 079) Pilar I Leasing Limited
6. PR-XTM (MSN 363) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company

Sharing this earlier post with you as it got buried in the thread.

Just want to point out DL has reserved enough registrations in the new A350 block to suggest they may end up taking all LATAM A350s eventually, although only the 7 Aercap frames are currently firm.

In this case I would speculate that Skyliner is probably wrong at the moment. They have a habit of sometimes making assumptions, and saw that an exLATAM A350 is moving to VCV and assumed it was going to DL when it was just the owner parking it in desert until they find someone to lease it (whether that be DL or someone else).

So the initial order rumor was for 30 737-900ERs, was that just a round number, or did one of the planes get rejected by DL is wonder.

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

planespotters is listing that frame as "Due" to Delta also. I don't care what anyone says...my hopes are up.

dalmit wrote:

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

planespotters is listing that frame as "Due" to Delta also. I don't care what anyone says...my hopes are up.

Me too!

PM wrote:

dalmit wrote:

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

planespotters is listing that frame as "Due" to Delta also. I don't care what anyone says...my hopes are up.

Me too!

Skyliner is correct, the aircraft is owned by AirCap. The quoted listing is incorrect.

The below link mentions the aircraft is owned by AirCap:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... s-to-latam

Prost wrote:

So the initial order rumor was for 30 737-900ERs, was that just a round number, or did one of the planes get rejected by DL is wonder.

Castlelake owned 27 and managed two Lion Air Group B739. Long before this thread was started, AFJ reported that Castlelake was in advanced negotiations to sell these aircraft to a major airline, thereby rejecting Lion Air’s offer. So it was just rounded up.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

PM wrote:

dalmit wrote:

planespotters is listing that frame as "Due" to Delta also. I don't care what anyone says...my hopes are up.

Me too!

Skyliner is correct, the aircraft is owned by AirCap. The quoted listing is incorrect.

The below link mentions the aircraft is owned by AirCap:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... s-to-latam

Er, no. The article (more than a year old) makes it clear that MSN 79 was owned outright by LATAM. My guess is that it has subsequently been sold to a lessor.

Polot wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

PM wrote:

According to Skyliner, A350 MSN 79 (PR-XTG) is going to Delta. I believe this is not one of the AerCap frames.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

Are Delta taking all of LATAM's A350s?

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

Riding on your post:
1. PR-XTE (MSN 048) becomes N570DZ
2. PR-XTF (MSN 064) becomes N571DZ
3. PR-XTH (MSN 200) becomes N572DZ
4. PR-XTI (MSN 250) becomes N573DZ
5. PR-XTJ (MSN 265) becomes N574DZ
6. PR-XTK (MSN 282) becomes N575DZ
7. PR-XTL (MSN 313) becomes N576DZ

These will leave the following LATAM A350s looking for new customers:
1. PR-XTA (MSN 024) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
2. PR-XTB (MSN 027) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company
3. PR-XTC (MSN 035) Pilar I Leasing Limited
4. PR-XTD (MSN 045) Pilar I Leasing Limited
5. PR-XTG (MSN 079) Pilar I Leasing Limited
6. PR-XTM (MSN 363) WTC - Wilmington Trust Company

Sharing this earlier post with you as it got buried in the thread.

Just want to point out DL has reserved enough registrations in the new A350 block to suggest they may end up taking all LATAM A350s eventually, although only the 7 Aercap frames are currently firm.

In this case I would speculate that Skyliner is probably wrong at the moment. They have a habit of sometimes making assumptions, and saw that an exLATAM A350 is moving to VCV and assumed it was going to DL when it was just the owner parking it in desert until they find someone to lease it (whether that be DL or someone else).

Thank you for your pointers, yes I understand where you are coming from. I agree, at this juncture, the fate of the few remaining frames are up in the air and no one knows what will happen to them. I do hope Delta will take them up as well, joining the firmed 7 frames. I tend to take Skyliner-aviation.de information with pinch of salt, sometimes they are good, sometimes they went off scaled a bit.

PM wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

PM wrote:

Me too!

Skyliner is correct, the aircraft is owned by AirCap. The quoted listing is incorrect.

The below link mentions the aircraft is owned by AirCap:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... s-to-latam

Er, no. The article (more than a year old) makes it clear that MSN 79 was owned outright by LATAM. My guess is that it has subsequently been sold to a lessor.

My bad, I was looking at MSN 265. But that website is generally a very accurate source for determining an aircraft's actual source, especially compared to the other websites cited. And I doubt the plane has been sold to a lessor -- DL had a purchase agreement in place pre-COVID, and since the COVID era lessors haven't been looking to take on second hand aircraft that could take 2+ years to place.

But I'm skeptical DL's taking on additional widebodies : 20 A339 and A359 are scheduled to enter service next year - that's a ton of capacity, especially when long-haul markets will just beginning their recovery. If they got a screaming deal on the aircraft (and if the estimate on the 7 leased aircraft is accurate, I'd characterize that transaction as a good deal), I'd expect DL to go for it and perhaps defer new deliveries. But deferring aircraft is costly and needs to be factored into the purchase decision.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

PM wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Skyliner is correct, the aircraft is owned by AirCap. The quoted listing is incorrect.

The below link mentions the aircraft is owned by AirCap:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... s-to-latam

Er, no. The article (more than a year old) makes it clear that MSN 79 was owned outright by LATAM. My guess is that it has subsequently been sold to a lessor.

My bad, I was looking at MSN 265. But that website is generally a very accurate source for determining an aircraft's actual source, especially compared to the other websites cited. And I doubt the plane has been sold to a lessor -- DL had a purchase agreement in place pre-COVID, and since the COVID era lessors haven't been looking to take on second hand aircraft that could take 2+ years to place.

But I'm skeptical DL's taking on additional widebodies : 20 A339 and A359 are scheduled to enter service next year - that's a ton of capacity, especially when long-haul markets will just beginning their recovery. If they got a screaming deal on the aircraft (and if the estimate on the 7 leased aircraft is accurate, I'd characterize that transaction as a good deal), I'd expect DL to go for it and perhaps defer new deliveries. But deferring aircraft is costly and needs to be factored into the purchase decision.

I still wonder if a number of those A359s won't enter into service in 2023 instead, as DL said the aircraft (generally statement on the A359 and B737) will enter into service through 2023.

jbs2886 wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

PM wrote:

Er, no. The article (more than a year old) makes it clear that MSN 79 was owned outright by LATAM. My guess is that it has subsequently been sold to a lessor.

My bad, I was looking at MSN 265. But that website is generally a very accurate source for determining an aircraft's actual source, especially compared to the other websites cited. And I doubt the plane has been sold to a lessor -- DL had a purchase agreement in place pre-COVID, and since the COVID era lessors haven't been looking to take on second hand aircraft that could take 2+ years to place.

But I'm skeptical DL's taking on additional widebodies : 20 A339 and A359 are scheduled to enter service next year - that's a ton of capacity, especially when long-haul markets will just beginning their recovery. If they got a screaming deal on the aircraft (and if the estimate on the 7 leased aircraft is accurate, I'd characterize that transaction as a good deal), I'd expect DL to go for it and perhaps defer new deliveries. But deferring aircraft is costly and needs to be factored into the purchase decision.

I still wonder if a number of those A359s won't enter into service in 2023 instead, as DL said the aircraft (generally statement on the A359 and B737) will enter into service through 2023.

IIRC, capital lease commitments didn’t materially rise, so I’m thinking they’re operating leases. DL’s taking delivery of the aircraft this year; the notes indicate leases commence January through 2024, but I assume that includes future deliveries.

There’s no demand for those aircraft status quo - it’s feasible to believe AirCap is letting DL take delivery of the aircraft this year and begin paying rent for them next year… but it’s difficult to believe they signed an agreement that doesn’t see rent payments begin for nearly two years. It’s possible but I suspect the 739 will be staged into service, whereas the 359 will probably commence much sooner.

Boof02671 wrote:

harleydriver wrote:

audidudi wrote:

9M-LNL has departed HNL and is enroute to ?

https://www.flightradar24.com/M9LNL/287e3ec0

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

Delta pilots aren’t allowed to fly planes that aren’t on their operating certificate.

That is absolutely not true. I was one of the initial pilots for the 717. Prior to delivery of our aircraft, we were wet leasing an AirTran 717 to conduct training flights. Before that I was one of the MD-88/90 pilots who went to Japan and ferried MD-90s back to the U.S. Those aircraft were owned by Delta, but were not yet on our operating certificate.

bucky707 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

harleydriver wrote:

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

Delta pilots aren’t allowed to fly planes that aren’t on their operating certificate.

That is absolutely not true. I was one of the initial pilots for the 717. Prior to delivery of our aircraft, we were wet leasing an AirTran 717 to conduct training flights. Before that I was one of the MD-88/90 pilots who went to Japan and ferried MD-90s back to the U.S. Those aircraft were owned by Delta, but were not yet on our operating certificate.

I know this isn't the right thread for it but I would love to hear about the MD-90 ferry flights if you ever feel like sharing it in a post.

bucky707 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

harleydriver wrote:

I wonder if this is being flown by a Delta crew, a crew from Lion Air Group or maybe contract pilots?

Delta pilots aren’t allowed to fly planes that aren’t on their operating certificate.

That is absolutely not true. I was one of the initial pilots for the 717. Prior to delivery of our aircraft, we were wet leasing an AirTran 717 to conduct training flights. Before that I was one of the MD-88/90 pilots who went to Japan and ferried MD-90s back to the U.S. Those aircraft were owned by Delta, but were not yet on our operating certificate.

Wet lease would mean AirTran crews were flying it.

Boof02671 wrote:

bucky707 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Delta pilots aren’t allowed to fly planes that aren’t on their operating certificate.

That is absolutely not true. I was one of the initial pilots for the 717. Prior to delivery of our aircraft, we were wet leasing an AirTran 717 to conduct training flights. Before that I was one of the MD-88/90 pilots who went to Japan and ferried MD-90s back to the U.S. Those aircraft were owned by Delta, but were not yet on our operating certificate.

Wet lease would mean AirTran crews were flying it.

The plane was fueled and dispatched by AirTran. There was in fact, an AirTran pilot on board. But they sat in the back, while Delta pilots occupied both seats up front.