bkflyguy wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

I too wonder about narrowbodies. I expect some mid-size used orders, but I also expect something to replace the MD-80/90, 717, and oldest A320/737 in the fleet.

DL will take delivery of 22 A321 this year. These were the de facto replacements for the MD-88 and MD-90 (in other words, the aircraft scheduled to enter the fleet by the time the MD aircraft exited). DL has 125 A321NEO scheduled for delivery within the next several years. These could be used to backfill capacity as needed, replace the older A320 and B757, and for expansion. And of course, I'm certain there's some merit to the rumor that DL's looking at second-hand late-model 739, which could be used for a similar purpose. The oldest B738 has awhile to go before it's retired (5 were built in 1998, 11 in 1999, 22 in 2000, 27 in 2001, 8 in 2002, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2012. 2 in 2013 and 1 in 2014).

I'm not certain there's much of a case to replace the 717 in the near future. Prior to COVID, reports were that DL -- which had been buying the aircraft off-lease and was expected to make cabin & cockpit upgrades -- had decided to move away from the type, largely due to swelling labor costs. If business travel is slow to bounce back, and the low fare environment persists (as many including WN project), it'd probably make more sense to keep the CRJ around a bit longer.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Given the low marginal costs at Boeing for an extra three or four MAXs a month, I expect that something could be an order for 100 MAX 8s and 100 options -- but I'm not ready to bet on it yet.

I'll bet that when UA announces its pending mega order (some of which will reiterate/replace existing orders), this forum will lose its cool and insist that unless DL buys 787 and the MAX now, it's headed for financial ruin. Because the average person can tell the difference between a refurbished 320 and 320 NEO, you know. (And UA's order appears to be in lieu of its previous plan to renovate its existing fleet.)

The A321neo order was originally for 100 frames and 100 options, 25 of which have been converted to firm orders for 125. So I expect that fleet to grow over time as demand recovers and 757s age out. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Delta does in the 150-180 seat range as the A320s and 738s age. Unless GE plays ball on LEAP maintenance, I think an A320neo order may be in the cards several years down the line with Pratt GTFs. But that is just a hunch and I wouldn't be surprised if Delta instead sticks with A321s as part of their upgauging and offer more seats with fewer frequencies in certain markets.

150 seater = A220-500

SteelChair wrote:

bkflyguy wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

DL will take delivery of 22 A321 this year. These were the de facto replacements for the MD-88 and MD-90 (in other words, the aircraft scheduled to enter the fleet by the time the MD aircraft exited). DL has 125 A321NEO scheduled for delivery within the next several years. These could be used to backfill capacity as needed, replace the older A320 and B757, and for expansion. And of course, I'm certain there's some merit to the rumor that DL's looking at second-hand late-model 739, which could be used for a similar purpose. The oldest B738 has awhile to go before it's retired (5 were built in 1998, 11 in 1999, 22 in 2000, 27 in 2001, 8 in 2002, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2012. 2 in 2013 and 1 in 2014).

I'm not certain there's much of a case to replace the 717 in the near future. Prior to COVID, reports were that DL -- which had been buying the aircraft off-lease and was expected to make cabin & cockpit upgrades -- had decided to move away from the type, largely due to swelling labor costs. If business travel is slow to bounce back, and the low fare environment persists (as many including WN project), it'd probably make more sense to keep the CRJ around a bit longer.



I'll bet that when UA announces its pending mega order (some of which will reiterate/replace existing orders), this forum will lose its cool and insist that unless DL buys 787 and the MAX now, it's headed for financial ruin. Because the average person can tell the difference between a refurbished 320 and 320 NEO, you know. (And UA's order appears to be in lieu of its previous plan to renovate its existing fleet.)

The A321neo order was originally for 100 frames and 100 options, 25 of which have been converted to firm orders for 125. So I expect that fleet to grow over time as demand recovers and 757s age out. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Delta does in the 150-180 seat range as the A320s and 738s age. Unless GE plays ball on LEAP maintenance, I think an A320neo order may be in the cards several years down the line with Pratt GTFs. But that is just a hunch and I wouldn't be surprised if Delta instead sticks with A321s as part of their upgauging and offer more seats with fewer frequencies in certain markets.

150 seater = A220-500

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater. We may consider A320 NEO, but only if you show an A220-500 proposal for comparison. Otherwise, don't bother coming to the meeting."

jbs2886 wrote:

LDRA wrote:

TW870 wrote:

Could anyone do a quick re-cap of the Delta-LATAM A350 transactions over the last couple of years?

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I presume summer 2022 EIS for the first of these frames. Does that sound about right? I'm guessing that even if they can find a way to make the D1 suites from the 777s fit into these birds, that there is just no way to do full cabin refurbs plus get that many pilots through the sims before next summer.

Great news though overall!

Why full cabin refurb? They're 90% brand new! Put D1 in and good for at least a few years

Because then it’s an inconsistent product. Something DL has worked hard to avoid.

Yep, people should know by now how Delta operates. This isn't an airline that flies throwback paint schemes, and would rather mothball a plane until they can bring it up to brand standards, especially a wide body that would attract high revenue. The most they'd allow to fly regularly is something like those 757 blue chinese PSUs.

LCDFlight wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

bkflyguy wrote:

The A321neo order was originally for 100 frames and 100 options, 25 of which have been converted to firm orders for 125. So I expect that fleet to grow over time as demand recovers and 757s age out. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Delta does in the 150-180 seat range as the A320s and 738s age. Unless GE plays ball on LEAP maintenance, I think an A320neo order may be in the cards several years down the line with Pratt GTFs. But that is just a hunch and I wouldn't be surprised if Delta instead sticks with A321s as part of their upgauging and offer more seats with fewer frequencies in certain markets.

150 seater = A220-500

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater. We may consider A320 NEO, but only if you show an A220-500 proposal for comparison. Otherwise, don't bother coming to the meeting."

Indeed.

We know that Skyteam partner Air France has already publicly said that they want the 500. The biggest problem would be the timing since the manufacturers and their suppliers are also in Covid recovery mode, so not the best time to launch a new variant.

I still believe that the 500 will absolutely be built someday.

Delta really could simplify their fleet and cover all the bases with the a220-500.

A220-100/300/500
A321-200/NEO/XLR
A330-900
A350-900

Just rookie here but I have a question. People were asking if the used ones DL will pickup are the 280T version. Someone else said something about a “extra wing twist” means they are . Can someone explain what that xtra twist is.? Thanks

f35 wrote:

Delta really could simplify their fleet and cover all the bases with the a220-500.

A220-100/300/500
A321-200/NEO/XLR
A330-900
A350-900

DL’s 739ER and A330-200/300 fleets aren’t going anywhere for a very long time.

Jeremy

TW870 wrote:

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

Mostly. DL paid a penalty to get out of buying the four used A350s but is still obligated for the ten new from Airbus (in addition to its previous own A350 orders). You will see the quantities in purchase commitments in the SEC Annual Report and 10-Q filings.

f35 wrote:

Delta really could simplify their fleet and cover all the bases with the a220-500.

A220-100/300/500
A321-200/NEO/XLR
A330-900
A350-900

All Airbus? Ha hah hah.

I think a narrow body fleet of about:

300 ceo/neo
300 NG/MAX
150 A220

is a lot more likely in 2029-2030. Yes, I'm predicting a full phase out of 757/753 by that time. Boeing has the capacity to build MAXs in volume at a profit, unlike Airbus' struggle to cover variable cost with A220 today.

TW870 wrote:

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I thought Delta only wiggled out of the 4 LATAM planes they already had on property, and then they negotiated with Airbus to push the other 10 or 11 (I can't remember) deliveries back as a cost savings measure... So these 13 were now in addition to the other 10 that had been pushed back. So this is actually quite an increase over the original LATAM agreement...

I could have that very wrong? But that's how I'd been tracking it.

BTV290 wrote:

TW870 wrote:

From what I recall, there was originally a deal to pick up four LATAM-owned A350s that (maybe) were flying with Qatar Airways. That deal also included rights for Delta to take 10 A350-900 (maybe convertible to -1000) order slots from LATAM. As a result of the pandemic, Delta paid a penalty to dissolve that whole deal. This new deal is for (up to) 13 A350s that have all been delivered to LATAM and operated by LATAM. These frames were freed up as a result of the LATAM bankruptcy fleet rationalization plan that will make the 787 the sole platform for long haul. Do I have all of this correct?

I thought Delta only wiggled out of the 4 LATAM planes they already had on property, and then they negotiated with Airbus to push the other 10 or 11 (I can't remember) deliveries back as a cost savings measure... So these 13 were now in addition to the other 10 that had been pushed back. So this is actually quite an increase over the original LATAM agreement...

I could have that very wrong? But that's how I'd been tracking it.

This is correct, the exit fee they paid to LATAM was for the four A359 frames they had on-property. This new deal is for A359s from LATAM's lessor, also some coming back from Qatar Airways subleases.

LATAM's Airbus order book for 10 A359s was moved over to Delta. There was negotiations that deferred some of those deliveries last year , and one this past April to move up 2 A359s deliveries to 2022, along with 1 A339.

MIflyer12 wrote:

f35 wrote:

Delta really could simplify their fleet and cover all the bases with the a220-500.

A220-100/300/500
A321-200/NEO/XLR
A330-900
A350-900

All Airbus? Ha hah hah.

I think a narrow body fleet of about:

300 ceo/neo
300 NG/MAX
150 A220

is a lot more likely in 2029-2030. Yes, I'm predicting a full phase out of 757/753 by that time. Boeing has the capacity to build MAXs in volume at a profit, unlike Airbus' struggle to cover variable cost with A220 today.

They have more ceo/neo on order/option than that right now. One would think there will be additional orders ahead. Delta won't have a total Airbus fleet, but they will become more than 50% Airbus soon, and that is a massive change from the past when Airbus was effectively shut out..

LCDFlight wrote:

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater.

Last time Delta said that, Airbus invented the A320 - and Delta did not order!!

SteelChair wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

f35 wrote:

Delta really could simplify their fleet and cover all the bases with the a220-500.

A220-100/300/500
A321-200/NEO/XLR
A330-900
A350-900

All Airbus? Ha hah hah.

I think a narrow body fleet of about:

300 ceo/neo
300 NG/MAX
150 A220

is a lot more likely in 2029-2030. Yes, I'm predicting a full phase out of 757/753 by that time. Boeing has the capacity to build MAXs in volume at a profit, unlike Airbus' struggle to cover variable cost with A220 today.

They have more ceo/neo on order/option than that right now. One would think there will be additional orders ahead. Delta won't have a total Airbus fleet, but they will become more than 50% Airbus soon, and that is a massive change from the past when Airbus was effectively shut out..

The past is a long time ago. They were also once very good McDD (and Douglas before that), and Lockheed customers. They have been a very, very good Airbus customer since very publicly going for the A330 many years ago. In their history, among the few US majors that have survived from the 30's, I don't think they've ever been considered a 'loyal' Boeing customer, and for the past 30 years in particular have been widely seen as savvy buyers.

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

JerseyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater.

Last time Delta said that, Airbus invented the A320 - and Delta did not order!!

When Airbus invented the A320 (mid-80s), Airbus was a very small player worldwide, and DL was pretty much all Douglas/MacDonnell Douglas or Boeing; most US Airlines were considering Airbus planes as throwaway planes.
Fast forward to 2021, and Airbus is now THE big player in narrowbody aircraft and recognized worldwide. 35 years do a lot of difference.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

So true. I have wanted to comment so many times to posts where people talk as if there's some type of bond to one of the manufactures, especially by either DL, AA or UA. But it would just be arguing with a fan. The exception here in the states maybe AS, which has loyalty based on the region.

LAOCA wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

So true. I have wanted to comment so many times to posts where people talk as if there's some type of bond to one of the manufactures, especially by either DL, AA or UA. But it would just be arguing with a fan. The exception here in the states maybe AS, which has loyalty based on the region.

Yep! Alaska is “Proudly All Boeing.”*

*and Bombardier, Embraer and some inherited Airbus

JerseyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater.

Last time Delta said that, Airbus invented the A320 - and Delta did not order!!

I would say you need to research things first before commenting nonsense.

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

Alaska had a golden opportunity to eliminate a competitor, it just came with some expensive Airbus leases. But all Boeing they were never locked down to, and wont be for awhile.

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

Alaska had a golden opportunity to eliminate a competitor, it just came with some expensive Airbus leases. But all Boeing they were never locked down to, and wont be for awhile.

Indeed. NWA brought the 330s, Delta didn't order any until a few years ago.

And yes, Delta was a loyal Boeing customer as recently as the last 20 or so years ago. Remember the exclusive supplier contract that they negotiated wkth Boeing during the Mullin regime? (Airbus was able to get it invalidated.) They were gonna be 737/757/767/777. My how times have changed.

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

He was also at the helm of NW when they began planning for the 787 (but left the airline before the order was formally placed).

This forum well overstates the authority of a CEO. Dozens of minions below RA spent thousands of hours doing the research and making the recommendation.

Vicenza wrote:

JerseyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

It would be interesting if DL said "hey Airbus, we need a 150 seater.

Last time Delta said that, Airbus invented the A320 - and Delta did not order!!

I would say you need to research things first before commenting nonsense.

Please refer to the second paragraph under "Design Effort" in the link below which states:

"In February 1981 the project was re-designated A320,[8] with efforts focused on the former SA2. During the year, Airbus worked with Delta Air Lines on a 150-seat aircraft envisioned and required by the airline. The A320 would carry 150 passengers over 5,280 or 3,440 km*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A320_family

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

He was also at the helm of NW when they began planning for the 787 (but left the airline before the order was formally placed).

This forum well overstates the authority of a CEO. Dozens of minions below RA spent thousands of hours doing the research and making the recommendation.

The final decision lies with the executive making the decision or recommendation to the board, not the minions. And it's not just clear cut case of "following the data," created by those minions.

Also, never forget that RA was at NWA when Boeing whiffed on the 787. 5 years late and waaayyy overweight ring any bells? I've heard colloquially that Boeing non performance on the 787 colored RA's attitude towards Boeing.

SteelChair wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

He was also at the helm of NW when they began planning for the 787 (but left the airline before the order was formally placed).

This forum well overstates the authority of a CEO. Dozens of minions below RA spent thousands of hours doing the research and making the recommendation.

The final decision lies with the executive making the decision or recommendation to the board, not the minions. And it's not just clear cut case of "following the data," created by those minions.

Also, never forget that RA was at NWA when Boeing whiffed on the 787. 5 years late and waaayyy overweight ring any bells? I've heard colloquially that Boeing non performance on the 787 colored RA's attitude towards Boeing.

NW was so adamant to Boeing about getting the 788 delivered on-time to be the launch NA customer because they wanted to retire the DC-10s and had to lug them around until their last A333 deliveries.

Considering the people that always make the talking points in the media about their thoughts on Boeing and Airbus purchases are generally chief executives from Gary Kelly to Richard Anderson to Akbar Al Baker, the buck stops with the group CEO and the board (or in AAB's case, the government). Even though it's the CFO that signs the line on the check, we all know who is rubber stamping the decisions, and it's not the minions. That's not to say the VP of fleet management doesn't have a large say, they probably lean on them quite a bit. Delta has a lot of the Northwest fleet and delivery team still on-board.

SteelChair wrote:

The final decision lies with the executive making the decision or recommendation to the board, not the minions. And it's not just clear cut case of "following the data," created by those minions.

Final decision, sure. But this isn't the CEO of a small business owned by that CEO. This is the CEO of a very large, publicly traded corporation. The CEO relies on the expertise of his minions to make these decisions. We read a lot of stores on a.net about how Jeff Smisek shocked UA when he announced CLE's closure, given he had agreed to and was expected to announce IAD's closure. Or that Richard Anderson rejected recommendations of the 787 because he has a personal vendetta against Boeing. And they're just that -- bull**** stories.

Also, never forget that RA was at NWA when Boeing whiffed on the 787. 5 years late and waaayyy overweight ring any bells? I've heard colloquially that Boeing non performance on the 787 colored RA's attitude towards Boeing.

No, RA left NW about a year before the 787 was ordered. But much of his team joined DL, and yes, their soured experience probably had minimal impact on the decision to go with the A359.

But let's consider facts....

-- RA was at the helm when DL took delivery of 10 B73G, 2 B738 and 10 B77L between late 2008 - 2010. These 22 aircraft were the only new build planes DL took delivery of over an 11 year span. (To put that number in perspective, DL's taking delivery of 21 A321 this year ....and numerous posters within this thread truly believe DL will take delivery of nearly 700 mainline jets over the last 8 years of this decade to renew and expand its fleet).

-- DL split its large narrowbody order nearly equally between the B739 and A321. Most of these deliveries reflected heavy end-of-the-line discounts.

-- DL ordered the NEO over the MAX, largely because of engine contract awarded to TechOps.

-- DL ordered the CS series from Bombardier (not Airbus), largely due to heavy discounting and again, a contract awarded to TechOps. The alternative options was second-hand E90/E95.

-- Yes, Airbus won the widebody order and we don't know exactly why (other than the PR statements made at the time that Airbus could deliver the planes much faster than Boeing, even when it was doubtful DL would accept such an aggressive delivery schedule) but we do know that DL may not have been overly thrilled with the B77L's performance, and (via NW) the 787 failing to meet expectations. But if it were still a superior aircraft to the A359, it would've joined the fleet.

Ultimately, a lot of nonsense from the Boeing fan boys. DL's simply making good business decisions, which is what every publicly traded company should be doing.

I hear increasingly LATAM is unhappy with the failed strategic investment from DL. Is the DL/LATAM A350 deal still on?

The only news we had was that Delta kept the 788 order as-is, probably to keep the launch discount and when they wanted more widebodies that they publically seemed pleased with the 789 fitting the profile of they wanted, and then the A359 came into the picture with favorable delivery slots. There was also the discussion how quickly they'd get a 789 with a new order after pushing the 788s. I don't think Richard and company had any personal beef over the 787 in-general, if anything he was more critical vocally about the 777x in his final years.

x1234 wrote:

I hear increasingly LATAM is unhappy with the failed strategic investment from DL. Is the DL/LATAM A350 deal still on?

You must be talking about the recent news that LATAM's creditors are unhappy with Qatar and Delta, not LATAM board themselves. That's normal things for an airline in bankruptcy because they bailed on the original frames on-property last year with the exit fee.

Lootess wrote:

NW was so adamant to Boeing about getting the 788 delivered on-time to be the launch NA customer because they wanted to retire the DC-10s and had to lug them around until their last A333 deliveries.

That's incorrect. In 2006, about a year after NW purchased the 787, it announced the final DC-10s would be retired within months, although a few frames would stick around through the Holiday season to operate MSP/HNL. The first 787 wasn't scheduled to be on property for almost two more years.

The 787 were ordered partially to retire the 742, partially to restore cancelled service (JFK-NRT was long speculated to be the inaugural 787 route) and partially to open up point-to-point flying from DTW to Asia.

Considering the people that always make the talking points in the media about their thoughts on Boeing and Airbus purchases are generally chief executives from Gary Kelly to Richard Anderson to Akbar Al Baker, the buck stops with the group CEO and the board (or in AAB's case, the government). Even though it's the CFO that signs the line on the check, we all know who is rubber stamping the decisions, and it's not the minions. That's not to say the VP of fleet management doesn't have a large say, they probably lean on them quite a bit. Delta has a lot of the Northwest fleet and delivery team still on-board.

The NW team that initially purchased Airbus, way back in the late 1980s, is long gone. In the early 2000s, credible sources indicated that NW - lead by Richard Anderson - preferred the 777 as its DC-10 / 742 replacement, but stood to lose over a couple hundred million dollars in deposits if it cancelled its A330 order. NW ordered the A320, A330 and A340 in the late 1980s as its fleet replacement, but cancelled half the A320 and all of the A340, and deferred the A330. Allegedly, Airbus was lenient and allowed NW to move its A320 and A340 deposits to the A330. NW's A330 order in the early 2000s merely replaced its existing A330 order (just as its B757 order replaced the remaining aircraft still on order from the late 1980s).

So while a.net wants to proceed with a witch hunt and call RA a witch because he oversaw the Airbus order, again, it's merely a fallacy. AAN may be an exception, but American CEOs (of large publicly traded companies) rarely go against their minions. Sorry, that's just an a.net legend.

SteelChair wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

Alaska had a golden opportunity to eliminate a competitor, it just came with some expensive Airbus leases. But all Boeing they were never locked down to, and wont be for awhile.

And yes, Delta was a loyal Boeing customer as recently as the last 20 or so years ago. Remember the exclusive supplier contract that they negotiated wkth Boeing during the Mullin regime? (Airbus was able to get it invalidated.) They were gonna be 737/757/767/777. My how times have changed.

Ah yes… the alleged Boeing exclusivity agreement that seems to only exist by way of airliners.net rumors.

When NW made the deal for the 787 they did specifically mention the fuel savings over the DC10 and being replacements, but also having options to expand. The final DC10s stuck around for the NW/KL JV routes like MEM-AMS.

Delta had posted good articles a few years ago during the A321 order-to-delivery process mentioning some profiles of the fleet management team, one of which delivered the first Airbus to NW and also got to deliver the A321. It's not all gone like you say, several came on through the merger from the Richard days of the A330. It's pretty obvious too when they did the merger and who was selected as executives.

NW747-400 wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

Alaska had a golden opportunity to eliminate a competitor, it just came with some expensive Airbus leases. But all Boeing they were never locked down to, and wont be for awhile.

And yes, Delta was a loyal Boeing customer as recently as the last 20 or so years ago. Remember the exclusive supplier contract that they negotiated wkth Boeing during the Mullin regime? (Airbus was able to get it invalidated.) They were gonna be 737/757/767/777. My how times have changed.

Ah yes… the alleged Boeing exclusivity agreement that seems to only exist by way of airliners.net rumors.

Hmm..

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

Lootess wrote:

When NW made the deal for the 787 they did specifically mention the fuel savings over the DC10 and being replacements, but also having options to expand. The final DC10s stuck around for the NW/KL JV routes like MEM-AMS.

When the 787 was ordered, internal fleet plans showed the DC-10 being phased out by year-end 2006. NW had 12 DC-10 at the time of the announcement, and was to take delivery of 11 A330 by the start of the spring 2007 season. They had no intention of expanding their widebody fleet (but were converting a number of 757 for long-haul use). A formal announcement was made during 2006. Don't be fooled by press releases.

Delta had posted good articles a few years ago during the A321 order-to-delivery process mentioning some profiles of the fleet management team, one of which delivered the first Airbus to NW and also got to deliver the A321. It's not all gone like you say, several came on through the merger from the Richard days of the A330. It's pretty obvious too when they did the merger and who was selected as executives.

You missed my point. The original NW folks ordered Airbus in the late 1980s. I doubt any of these people are with DL today. As I mentioned, in the early 2000s, NW - lead by RA - preferred the 777 but stood to lose at least a couple hundred million dollars in forfeited deposits and cancellation penalties if it cancelled its A330 order (allegedly, Airbus didn't penalize NW for cancelling its A320 and A340 orders, so as long as it didn't cancel the A330 orders). Thus, it reaffirmed its A330 order (by cancelling and re-ordering it). So again... RA lead a team that preferred the 777, and later ordered the 787... and then joined DL where he lead a 77L order... yet he's a Boeing hater? Financial due diligence requires one to forgo their personal wants and personal emotions.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

Agreed. I think many people are too quick to ascribe “Loyalty” - an emotion - to “the incremental costs of an additional fleet type don’t justify the expense so we will order additional frames of types we already operate” - a logical business decision.

Even the decision by Delta not to order the MAX isn’t an emotional decision but one driven by their inability to overhaul the LEAP.

NW747-400 wrote:

Ah yes… the alleged Boeing exclusivity agreement that seems to only exist by way of airliners.net rumors.

Say what?

There's nothing alleged about the agreements Boeing had with AA, DL & CO.

Here's what Boeing themselves said about it when they agreed to drop the exclusivity clause in their existing contracts with AA, DL & CO in return for EU approval for the merger with McDD.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/1997-07-23 ... Commission

Finally, although Boeing questions whether the company's "exclusive" agreements with its U.S. customers should be the subject of demands by the European Commission, to secure merger approval Boeing further agreed not to enforce the exclusivity provisions in its existing agreements with American Airlines, Delta Airlines and Continental Airlines. The agreements remain otherwise unaffected.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

The final decision lies with the executive making the decision or recommendation to the board, not the minions. And it's not just clear cut case of "following the data," created by those minions.

Final decision, sure. But this isn't the CEO of a small business owned by that CEO. This is the CEO of a very large, publicly traded corporation. The CEO relies on the expertise of his minions to make these decisions. We read a lot of stores on a.net about how Jeff Smisek shocked UA when he announced CLE's closure, given he had agreed to and was expected to announce IAD's closure. Or that Richard Anderson rejected recommendations of the 787 because he has a personal vendetta against Boeing. And they're just that -- bull**** stories.

"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business."

I would never argue that RA had a personal vendetta against Boeing or any other company. I would argue that he was doubtful of them because they f-ed up the 787 so badly. Why give future business to someone who has a recent history of sub-par performance? There should be consequences for fouling up that badly, and indeed, future events revealed that Boeing was indeed on a certain negative trajectory. Well done, RA.

As far as RA following his minions, ever heard about how someone fared who disagreed with him in a public forum like a business meeting? He could go full-on Don Corleone in a heartbeat. Woe to those who didn't know how brutal he could be.

Smisek is no RA.

SteelChair wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

The final decision lies with the executive making the decision or recommendation to the board, not the minions. And it's not just clear cut case of "following the data," created by those minions.

Final decision, sure. But this isn't the CEO of a small business owned by that CEO. This is the CEO of a very large, publicly traded corporation. The CEO relies on the expertise of his minions to make these decisions. We read a lot of stores on a.net about how Jeff Smisek shocked UA when he announced CLE's closure, given he had agreed to and was expected to announce IAD's closure. Or that Richard Anderson rejected recommendations of the 787 because he has a personal vendetta against Boeing. And they're just that -- bull**** stories.

"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business."

I would never argue that RA had a personal vendetta against Boeing or any other company. I would argue that he was doubtful of them because they f-ed up the 787 so badly. Why give future business to someone who has a recent history of sub-par performance? There should be consequences for fouling up that badly, and indeed, future events revealed that Boeing was indeed on a certain negative trajectory. Well done, RA.

As far as RA following his minions, ever heard about how someone fared who disagreed with him in a public forum like a business meeting? He could go full-on Don Corleone in a heartbeat. Woe to those who didn't know how brutal he could be.

Smisek is no RA.

There were far more legacy DL folks than NW at the time of the widebody order; many of those DL folks were there when DL signed an exclusive contract with Boeing (and some where there long before that). NW’s experience with the 787 likely had some impact on the decision, but it would’ve been minimal. We don’t truly know what promoted DL to choose the 350 over the 787, but I doubt it was to teach Boeing a lesson.

And I’ve heard nothing but nice things said about RA and his wife Sue….

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

Agree 100%. Airlines’ responsibilities, as it relates to aircraft purchases, is to shareholders.

NW747-400 wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Lootess wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of Northwest when they bought and delivered the A330, and at Delta when they bought it too. Makes sense.

Alaska had a golden opportunity to eliminate a competitor, it just came with some expensive Airbus leases. But all Boeing they were never locked down to, and wont be for awhile.

And yes, Delta was a loyal Boeing customer as recently as the last 20 or so years ago. Remember the exclusive supplier contract that they negotiated wkth Boeing during the Mullin regime? (Airbus was able to get it invalidated.) They were gonna be 737/757/767/777. My how times have changed.

Ah yes… the alleged Boeing exclusivity agreement that seems to only exist by way of airliners.net rumors.

Multiple posters have posted links that it did exist. At least until Airbus made a legal/free trade claim and got the deals nullified. Sorry I don't have a link for that.

tlecam wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

Agree 100%. Airlines’ responsibilities, as it relates to aircraft purchases, is to shareholders.

I also agree 100%. Decades ago I participated in multiple sales campaigns. A new type was a cost for pilot, f/a, ground crew training and the cost of supporting the new fleet (fly away kit parts, maintenance complications, cost of spare aircraft).

There was zero brand loyalty. It was just costs. No airline could justify a small fleet (e.g. prior discussion on DL simplifying their fleet).

DL has 737 (in particular the large 737-900ER subfleet), A32x (in particular large A321CEO and on order A321NEO), and A220 fleets. There is absolutely no reason for Delta to be loyal to anyone.

The only catch is Delta like to service aircraft and engines. CFM would have to offer something for the MAX to enter DL's fleet, but that is just my opinion.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

tlecam wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I cringe whenever anyone brings "loyalty" into aircraft purchasing decisions. That hasn't been a factor at almost any airline for any manufacturer in the past 2-3 decades.

Agree 100%. Airlines’ responsibilities, as it relates to aircraft purchases, is to shareholders.

I also agree 100%. Decades ago I participated in multiple sales campaigns. A new type was a cost for pilot, f/a, ground crew training and the cost of supporting the new fleet (fly away kit parts, maintenance complications, cost of spare aircraft).

There was zero brand loyalty. It was just costs. No airline could justify a small fleet (e.g. prior discussion on DL simplifying their fleet).

DL has 737 (in particular the large 737-900ER subfleet), A32x (in particular large A321CEO and on order A321NEO), and A220 fleets. There is absolutely no reason for Delta to be loyal to anyone.

The only catch is Delta like to service aircraft and engines. CFM would have to offer something for the MAX to enter DL's fleet, but that is just my opinion.

Lightsaber

I would argue there never was any brand loyalty, it was the value in the exclusive supplier arrangement that was the hook. $$'s bought the loyalty, temporarily.

I agree with you last statement. But GE/CFM and DAL seem to be in a little bit of a snit, and Delta already has the PW and RR agreements in place.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

Lootess wrote:

When NW made the deal for the 787 they did specifically mention the fuel savings over the DC10 and being replacements, but also having options to expand. The final DC10s stuck around for the NW/KL JV routes like MEM-AMS.

When the 787 was ordered, internal fleet plans showed the DC-10 being phased out by year-end 2006. NW had 12 DC-10 at the time of the announcement, and was to take delivery of 11 A330 by the start of the spring 2007 season. They had no intention of expanding their widebody fleet (but were converting a number of 757 for long-haul use). A formal announcement was made during 2006. Don't be fooled by press releases.

Delta had posted good articles a few years ago during the A321 order-to-delivery process mentioning some profiles of the fleet management team, one of which delivered the first Airbus to NW and also got to deliver the A321. It's not all gone like you say, several came on through the merger from the Richard days of the A330. It's pretty obvious too when they did the merger and who was selected as executives.

You missed my point. The original NW folks ordered Airbus in the late 1980s. I doubt any of these people are with DL today. As I mentioned, in the early 2000s, NW - lead by RA - preferred the 777 but stood to lose at least a couple hundred million dollars in forfeited deposits and cancellation penalties if it cancelled its A330 order (allegedly, Airbus didn't penalize NW for cancelling its A320 and A340 orders, so as long as it didn't cancel the A330 orders). Thus, it reaffirmed its A330 order (by cancelling and re-ordering it). So again... RA lead a team that preferred the 777, and later ordered the 787... and then joined DL where he lead a 77L order... yet he's a Boeing hater? Financial due diligence requires one to forgo their personal wants and personal emotions.

First you said they don't, and now doubt. But I just said they had some people who delivered the first Airbus to NW also delivered the first Delta A321, and were highlighted previously in a Delta article.

CEO Doug Steenland ordered the 787, no one had a beef with the plane at all, it just materially the plane was late and that's the ordeal. They looked at the 789 during the 767 replacement RFP. The fact of the matter is the A330s were ordered and delivered on Richard's watch at both carriers, and he even pressured Airbus publicly to make the A330neo and become a launch customer.

Then we can go back to his weird comment about 777X
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1391755

The carrier plans to look at four options: The Airbus A350-900 and -1000, all three models of the Boeing 787, the current versions of the A330 and a re-engined A330.

Delta is not looking at the 777X. “We don’t want experimental airplanes,” says Anderson. “We are not interested in it.”

SteelChair wrote:

Remember the exclusive supplier contract that they negotiated wkth Boeing during the Mullin regime? (Airbus was able to get it invalidated.) They were gonna be 737/757/767/777. My how times have changed.

That was a sweet, but brief, time for Boeing with the exclusivity contracts with AA/DL/CO.

Lootess wrote:

First you said they don't, and now doubt. But I just said they had some people who delivered the first Airbus to NW also delivered the first Delta A321, and were highlighted previously in a Delta article.

You're ignoring the meat of my assertions to split hairs. NW initially ordered the A320, A330 and A340 in 1987 -- I strongly doubt that the people who were pushing for this, are still with DL today.

CEO Doug Steenland ordered the 787, no one had a beef with the plane at all, it just materially the plane was late and that's the ordeal.

It's almost as if this forum believes that various airline CEOs decide they want to order new aircraft, head to the Airbus show room in Europe, haggle with the sales rep on the monthly payment... and fly out with a shiny new airplane In reality, NW acknowledged it was in talks with Boeing for 'some time,' with numerous reports suggesting NW was intimately involved with the aircraft's development. There were plenty of credible reports that NW passed on the opportunity to be the 787's launch customer (although they were intended to be the North American launch customer, despite ordering the plane a year after CO), which tells you how long they had been in discussions with Boeing.

They looked at the 789 during the 767 replacement RFP. The fact of the matter is the A330s were ordered and delivered on Richard's watch at both carriers, and he even pressured Airbus publicly to make the A330neo and become a launch customer. Then we can go back to his weird comment about 777X

.

That's incorrect -- NW obtained 10 options for the A330 in 1987, exercised them in 1989, added six more orders in the early 1990s then deferred them indefinitely in 1992. In other words... the order was already on the books long before RA joined NW. As I mentioned earlier, leaked narratives suggest that RA & NW preferred the 777 as its DC-10 and 742 replacement, but stood to lose a couple hundred million in deposits / penalties in cancelling the 330. But RA and NW almost immediately began working with Boeing on the 787. So again, any notion that he's an Airbus fanboy is completed false.

What's going on with the Latam A350s only one showing Delta registration?

papatango wrote:

What's going on with the Latam A350s only one showing Delta registration?

Lots of t’s to cross, i’s to dot and tape to cut through… it’s a legal process that takes time, not an entertainment one for us fan boys .

So, given Delta is back dumpster diving, is A380 on the cards?

miegapele wrote:

So, given Delta is back dumpster diving, is A380 on the cards?

Are you being serious?

miegapele wrote:

So, given Delta is back dumpster diving, is A380 on the cards?

I’m sure it’s just below buying back the 77L, and seeing if there’s any DC-8 available.

jbs2886 wrote:

Are you being serious?

No, not really, or at least I would not believe that it could happen.