Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mxaxai
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:43 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
And a factor that is quite important and a contributor to WH&S and wellbeing. Just having the presence of a colleague to converse with at work. Long haul flying can be an incredibly lonely job with can adversely affect mental health, no need to make it more lonely.

Also long haul back of the clock it’s easier to stay awake with two pilots in the flight deck having a discussion. One pilot just sitting there is a sure fire way to drift off unknowingly.

If keeping the pilot alert and awake is the biggest problem, I think a Netflix or Spotify subscription would be just as effective as a second pilot.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3807
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:59 am

Revelation wrote:
Very interesting!

Cathay Pacific (0293.HK) is working with Airbus (AIR.PA) to introduce "reduced crew" long-haul flights with a sole pilot in the cockpit much of the time, industry sources told Reuters.

The programme, known within Airbus as Project Connect, aims to certify its A350 jet for single-pilot operations during high-altitude cruise, starting in 2025 on Cathay passenger flights, the sources said.

An overview on the tech/rationale:

Safe deployment will require constant monitoring of the solo pilot's alertness and vital signs by on-board systems, the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has said.

If the flight encounters a problem or the pilot flying is incapacitated, the resting copilot can be summoned within minutes. Both remain in the cockpit for take-off and landing.

"Typically on long-haul flights when you're at cruise altitude there's very little happening in the cockpit," EASA chief Patrick Ky told a German press briefing in January.

"It makes sense to say OK, instead of having two in the cockpit, we can have one in the cockpit, the other one taking a rest, provided we're implementing technical solutions which make sure that if the single one falls asleep or has any problem, there won't be any unsafe conditions."

And:

Airbus has designed an A350 autopilot upgrade and flight warning system changes to help a lone pilot manage failures, sources close to the project said.

The mid-sized plane is suitable because of its "emergency descent" feature that quickly reduces altitude without pilot input in the event of cabin depressurisation.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 2021-06-16

The article also goes through LH's involvement in the program and safety concerns that are being voiced by pilot groups and others.

I've been posting about single pilot operations for a while now. I'm kinda surprised to see this could happen in a major pax fleet such as CX's A350s as soon as 2025. I would have thought it would have come in via cargo operators first, but it seems the lure of cutting pilots off the roster is too high for the industry to resist. I guess there is just too much money being left on the table via reduced staffing possibilities that is has developed enough inertia to reach this point even in the current jittery safety-conscious environment. The pilots reaction was 100% predictable: raise the spectre of MCAS v2, even though this is an EASA initiative.



Also with pilot shortages single pilot could help with the shortages. Mind yo I would rather have 2 for many reasons Including a plane as a suicide we heard of a few years back.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14425
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:02 am

Airbus would probably have to prove EASA and FAA the new system, with pilots taking a rest halfway, is at least as safe or safer than the current system. Getting the second pilot in his seat while cruising at 40k ft probably has some slack. How many emergencies ever happened during that stage? I can only remember the sad AF one. That one had human error & 3 pilots in the cockpit and a lot of time. If only the pilot had let go the stick, the A330 would have recovered itself, despite it system problem.

Keeping the single pilot in the cockpit sharp is a challenge requiring creativity. Cabin crew can play a role keeping her/ him involved, as well as satellite connections with ground, colleagues. Maybe pilots in a coach role supporting several flights from home base as part of their job. Communication opportunities boomed over the last 25 years. Cockpit psychologists will dive on this to come up with a balanced package and requirements.

Image
https://www.360cities.net/image/aircraf ... -hong-kong
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kalvado
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:16 am

FluidFlow wrote:
What is actually interesting is, that the biggest point against single pilot is not the failure of automation but actually the failure of the single human doing something stupid. The second person in the cockpit is there to make sure the first does nothing stupid.

At the moment pilot nr. 1 is there to make sure the automation works well and pilot number two is there to make sure pilot number 1 does what he has to do.

Should a mixed crew be considered?
A pilot to monitor the instruments, and a dog...?
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:40 am

kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
What is actually interesting is, that the biggest point against single pilot is not the failure of automation but actually the failure of the single human doing something stupid. The second person in the cockpit is there to make sure the first does nothing stupid.

At the moment pilot nr. 1 is there to make sure the automation works well and pilot number two is there to make sure pilot number 1 does what he has to do.

Should a mixed crew be considered?
A pilot to monitor the instruments, and a dog...?


I would say a parrot, less space and way more annoying so you stay awake... ;-)

But on a serious note: Would it not be necessary to have the crew rest (for the pilot) actually inside the cockpit or at least in a separate area that has access to the cockpit but from no where else?
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14425
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:02 am

FluidFlow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
What is actually interesting is, that the biggest point against single pilot is not the failure of automation but actually the failure of the single human doing something stupid. The second person in the cockpit is there to make sure the first does nothing stupid.

At the moment pilot nr. 1 is there to make sure the automation works well and pilot number two is there to make sure pilot number 1 does what he has to do.

Should a mixed crew be considered?
A pilot to monitor the instruments, and a dog...?


I would say a parrot, less space and way more annoying so you stay awake... ;-)

But on a serious note: Would it not be necessary to have the crew rest (for the pilot) actually inside the cockpit or at least in a separate area that has access to the cockpit but from no where else?


The requirements coming out of risk analyses would dictate the second cockpit crew member to be in his cockpit seat in xx seconds, and that would have to be demonstrated to be feasible under emergency conditions. That would determine if the current crew rest behind the cockpit is feasible or modifications have to be made. Maybe the A350 (&777) design teams already took it in to account during the design phase, because this is not a new topic.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19927
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:11 am

flight152 wrote:
Ufsatp wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I am opposing this as a passenger.


As a passenger, I am all for it.


Why would any sane passenger be for this? Do you like the idea of degraded safety margins in the name of higher corporate profit margins?


People probably said the same when navigators were removed from the cockpit. Then again when flight engineers were removed....
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19927
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:14 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
provided we're implementing technical solutions which make sure that if the single one falls asleep or has any problem, there won't be any unsafe conditions."


Should be possible. Billions of passengers have reached safely their destination during the last 100 years, sitting in trains driven by single-drivers, protected by rather simplistic dead-man detection solutions.


Whisper it quietly, millions of passengers ride on trains with no driver!!! :o
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19927
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:21 am

Revelation wrote:
redflyer wrote:
I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition. Nevertheless, given a choice of being in the back of a bus that goes off the road because the driver croaks, or the back of an airplane that goes into a death spiral because the pilot croaks, I'll take the Greyhound bus any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :spin:

Fine, yet the A350 should do much better if the pilot croaks than the Greyhound bus. It should be a non-event, it's really one of the easier failure modes for it to deal with. It should figure out from lack of activity that the pilot is no longer in the loop and put itself into a holding pattern till the resting pilot can take over. On the other hand, the Greyhound really has no way to deal with a driver that croaks. You'd have to find a way to pull him/her out of the operators position and by the time you could do that you'd almost certainly have gone off the road or hit something on the road.


Not to mention you can buy cars today that are a whisker away from being fully autonomous. It would be very simple to slow the vehicle to a complete stop while maintaining the lane and turning on the hazard lights. Some new cars also have driver alertness monitoring. The technology is there that would enable the vehicle to safely cope with a driver falling asleep/having a heart attack/dieing. Is it on today's Greyhound? Probably not, but could be.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19927
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:28 am

miegapele wrote:
But how does it work with suicide concerns? If automation can fix that, then pilot has no control and is not needed at all. If pilot has some control, how would suicide dealt with? Currently major deterant to that is second pilot and pretty high odds that you would fail. With single pilot it becomes possibility.
Although single driver trains are commonplace so maybe this can work somehow.


Seriously, how many people even think about that? Having another pilot in the cockpit didn't prevent the GermanWings or the EgyptAir suicides.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:32 am

nikeherc wrote:
Also, most bus segments are only a couple of hours. Just dealing with traffic and driving the bus would help keep the driver awake.

You'd like to think so, but if you're working long and potentially inconsistent hours, constantly switching back and forth between daytime and night time, you never know. I drive a truck for a living, but in my case, if I have a hard time staying awake, I can pull into a rest area (assuming I can find a parking spot at that hour) and then jump into the back and go to bed. A bus driver can't really do that.
redflyer wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
redflyer wrote:
In the event of incapacitation of the driver/operator of a surface transport, the most common end-result is the transport rolls to a stop after a short period of time; worst case scenario, it goes off the road and crashes and most of the passengers walk away with minor injuries (unless it goes off a cliff). Passengers can even quickly jump in, take hold of the steering and guide the transport to a stop as has happened many times.

I wouldn't be so sure about the last part. Unless anything has changed, the last time I was on a Greyhound bus, the buses were designed such that there was a partition that would separate the driver from the passengers. Unless the passengers have any way of moving it out of the way, they wouldn't really be able to do this.

I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition.

I just checked because I was curious, they didn't start installing them until 2003. This was a result of a crash in 2001 that killed seven people after a passenger slashed the driver's throat, causing the bus to go off the road.
tomcat wrote:
redflyer wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about the last part. Unless anything has changed, the last time I was on a Greyhound bus, the buses were designed such that there was a partition that would separate the driver from the passengers. Unless the passengers have any way of moving it out of the way, they wouldn't really be able to do this.

I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition. Nevertheless, given a choice of being in the back of a bus that goes off the road because the driver croaks, or the back of an airplane that goes into a death spiral because the pilot croaks, I'll take the Greyhound bus any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :spin:

But why would the plane go into a spiral in such an event? If it would be certified for 1 pilot operation in cruise, it would keep flying just fine without you noticing anything contrary to the bus that would surely go off road. In those days when we can land driverless rovers on Mars why wouldn't you trust that a plane could operate for a few minutes without pilot in a well understood environment?

Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.
Captain Kevin
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11865
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:37 am

It would be interesting to see if this gets wrapped up in ETOPS restrictions, ie allowed but can’t do more than ETOPS 180 or something, while full crew roster A350 can do ETOPS 370.

It wouldn’t surprise me if that ultimately is the case.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:41 am

scbriml wrote:
miegapele wrote:
But how does it work with suicide concerns? If automation can fix that, then pilot has no control and is not needed at all. If pilot has some control, how would suicide dealt with? Currently major deterant to that is second pilot and pretty high odds that you would fail. With single pilot it becomes possibility.
Although single driver trains are commonplace so maybe this can work somehow.

Seriously, how many people even think about that? Having another pilot in the cockpit didn't prevent the GermanWings or the EgyptAir suicides.

Except for the fact that there wasn't another pilot in the cockpit when both of them happened. In the case of one of them, the Captain eventually made it back to the flight deck, but by that point, his attempt to stop it from happening didn't do much. In the case of the other, the Captain couldn't get back into the flight deck at all after being locked out.
Captain Kevin
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:07 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.

Then it may lead to a crash. Pilot incapacitations happen but are relatively rare, on the order of 1e-6 per flight hour. Uncontained engine failures are similarly uncommon. For ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, an IFSD rate of less than 1e-6 per flight hour must be demonstrated - and that includes mostly benign and contained failures.

The probability of the two occuring simultaneously within any given 15-minute window is less than 1e-12. There are other potential catastrophic failures that are much, much more likely.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19927
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:33 pm

AirKevin wrote:
scbriml wrote:
miegapele wrote:
But how does it work with suicide concerns? If automation can fix that, then pilot has no control and is not needed at all. If pilot has some control, how would suicide dealt with? Currently major deterant to that is second pilot and pretty high odds that you would fail. With single pilot it becomes possibility.
Although single driver trains are commonplace so maybe this can work somehow.

Seriously, how many people even think about that? Having another pilot in the cockpit didn't prevent the GermanWings or the EgyptAir suicides.

Except for the fact that there wasn't another pilot in the cockpit when both of them happened. In the case of one of them, the Captain eventually made it back to the flight deck, but by that point, his attempt to stop it from happening didn't do much. In the case of the other, the Captain couldn't get back into the flight deck at all after being locked out.


Exactly my point - even with multiple pilots, those disasters still happened. A person determined to kill themselves by crashing the plane isn’t going to let another pilot stop them, even if that second pilot is still in the cockpit.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:44 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Seriously, how many people even think about that? Having another pilot in the cockpit didn't prevent the GermanWings or the EgyptAir suicides.

Except for the fact that there wasn't another pilot in the cockpit when both of them happened. In the case of one of them, the Captain eventually made it back to the flight deck, but by that point, his attempt to stop it from happening didn't do much. In the case of the other, the Captain couldn't get back into the flight deck at all after being locked out.


Exactly my point - even with multiple pilots, those disasters still happened. A person determined to kill themselves by crashing the plane isn’t going to let another pilot stop them, even if that second pilot is still in the cockpit.


The suicide can not be taken as a counter argument because many cases already showed that the current system does not prevent them as well as we haven't heard of a lot of prevented cases.

The real deal are two scenarios: Automation failure that immediately needs 2 pilots to control the aircraft, or pilot incapacitation that actually upsets the aircraft. Just being incapacitated will not upset the flight if no controls are touched. Autopilot will just continue the flight. The same is with automation failure. As long as the failure does not lead to an immediate upset (aka MCAS), the aircraft will continue the flight along its path. For example if the autopilot disengages due to an error (aka AF447) the aircraft would just fly ahaed as long as no one does something stupid.

Thats what the parrot will be for...

So it has to be demonstrated that this cases happen very rarely and the second pilot would be in the chair within x seconds. X will be determined by the risk of crashes happening during one pilot ops. So how many seconds can one pilot handle the aircraft alone until the probability of a crash reaches a certain threshold.
 
NZ321
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:03 pm

I don't see an efficient or easy solution to "single pilot" on medium-long haul. Not happening any time soon. That's my prediction. Love to hear arguments to the contrary.
Plane mad!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:07 pm

tomcat wrote:
But why would the plane go into a spiral in such an event? If it would be certified for 1 pilot operation in cruise, it would keep flying just fine without you noticing anything contrary to the bus that would surely go off road. In those days when we can land driverless rovers on Mars why wouldn't you trust that a plane could operate for a few minutes without pilot in a well understood environment?

Yes, that's a good point. I was just thinking of the Helios crash ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 ) where the pilots were incapacitated due to lack of oxygen because they did not configure the plane correctly and did not interpret the warning horn correctly. In this case, the airplane flew to its destination and entered a holding pattern.

Iluvtofly wrote:
zeke wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting.

Pilots and cabin crew are paid for the entire flight, even when resting.

Well if that's the case why is this even being proposed ? There would be no cost saving .......

Because fewer pilots are needed with single-pilot operation. Right now two pilots are required in the cockpit even when cruising hour after hour TPAC or TATL. The idea is to reduce this to one.

mxaxai wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.

Then it may lead to a crash. Pilot incapacitations happen but are relatively rare, on the order of 1e-6 per flight hour. Uncontained engine failures are similarly uncommon. For ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, an IFSD rate of less than 1e-6 per flight hour must be demonstrated - and that includes mostly benign and contained failures.

The probability of the two occuring simultaneously within any given 15-minute window is less than 1e-12. There are other potential catastrophic failures that are much, much more likely.

Not sure exactly what metrics will be applied. TFA suggests the standard will be that the automation needs to handle anything that can happen for fifteen minutes straight. Seems to be a much higher standard than dealing with certain known events with varying levels of probability.

It's my understanding that QF32 truly was against the odds i.e. it fell outside the 1e-6 window.

It seems to me we should remember to balance the QF32 style events where the pilots saved the day against the Helios and PIA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_ ... light_8303 ) events where they did not.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7784
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
What is actually interesting is, that the biggest point against single pilot is not the failure of automation but actually the failure of the single human doing something stupid. The second person in the cockpit is there to make sure the first does nothing stupid.

At the moment pilot nr. 1 is there to make sure the automation works well and pilot number two is there to make sure pilot number 1 does what he has to do.

Should a mixed crew be considered?
A pilot to monitor the instruments, and a dog...?


I would say a parrot, less space and way more annoying so you stay awake... ;-)

But on a serious note: Would it not be necessary to have the crew rest (for the pilot) actually inside the cockpit or at least in a separate area that has access to the cockpit but from no where else?


Dassault is contemplating just that in 10X; pilots seats that fully recline for cruise test be either pilot. In a bizjet, likely a better solution than a rest area in the cabin where there’s lots of disturbances.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:05 pm

If Tesla can turn their beta-version of full-self-driving-cars loose on public roads with a single driver monitoring their automation (despite obvious safety concerns), I don't see how this is much different. Except that an A350 at cruise has a much larger safety margin than a car on a crowded highway.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:08 pm

An airplane is not like some automated car where the trustful driver's head gets chopped off once in a while because the computer could not distinguish between crossing trucks and the horizon.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4883
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:12 pm

Some what relevant, at sea the captain or officer of the deck really don't do anything. Their job is to maintain the utmost situational awareness. The captain, even if not on the bridge, may have a mini stateroom just aft of the 'captain's seat'. Also somewhat relative, cars with all the latest safety and driver assist features take at least a few thousand miles to get comfortable with. You don't do it quite the same. At best you don't do anything except maintain all of that very important situational awareness. Pilots of some of the latest very high tech military planes, as I understand it, don't so much fly the plane as direct the various systems - some systems fly the plane, others manage the sensors, others the weapon systems, others navigation, others communications. It all sounds extremely complex and demanding.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:20 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.

Suppose you have both engines fail on a 777 in the middle of the pacific. Then what.
Suppose you have MCAS go crazy with just two pilots in the cockpit. Then what.

Risk analysis. 1 in a billion flights scenario leading to a crash is an acceptable risk.
 
tomcat
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:23 pm

Revelation wrote:

mxaxai wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.

Then it may lead to a crash. Pilot incapacitations happen but are relatively rare, on the order of 1e-6 per flight hour. Uncontained engine failures are similarly uncommon. For ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, an IFSD rate of less than 1e-6 per flight hour must be demonstrated - and that includes mostly benign and contained failures.

The probability of the two occuring simultaneously within any given 15-minute window is less than 1e-12. There are other potential catastrophic failures that are much, much more likely.

Not sure exactly what metrics will be applied. TFA suggests the standard will be that the automation needs to handle anything that can happen for fifteen minutes straight. Seems to be a much higher standard than dealing with certain known events with varying levels of probability.

It's my understanding that QF32 truly was against the odds i.e. it fell outside the 1e-6 window.



A few points:
- I'm not in charge of certifying this single-pilot feature so I don't have a precise answer for you but I trust that if this feature would be certified, flying will not be made less safe than it is today. A certification process is a very thorough process. Not trusting this process means that we don't trust that flying is safe today while all evidences indicate that it is safe to fly. There was a recent exception in the thoroughness of the certification process but it has been contained after 2 deadly crashes and I'm confident that lessons have been learned.
- QF32 had a crew of 5 on that occasion instead of the usual crew of 3 for this flight. This is not the baseline to compare with.
- the QF32 incident occurred 4 minutes into flight so it's out of the scope of the single-pilot feature currently developed by Airbus.
- what if a pilot had croaked just before or just after the UEF in QF32? Had it been any safer than with a more advanced cockpit design?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:34 pm

kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Suppose you have a repeat of Qantas 32 after the pilot croaks. Then what.

Suppose you have both engines fail on a 777 in the middle of the pacific. Then what.
Suppose you have MCAS go crazy with just two pilots in the cockpit. Then what.

Risk analysis. 1 in a billion flights scenario leading to a crash is an acceptable risk.

:checkmark:

Every time we get onto a plane we're taking a calculated risk, and so is the airline. Uncomfortable as it sounds, many governments have already set monetary values on our lives, insurance premiums have been calculated on expected compensation for victims families. Sooner or later the money saved via lower wages by using automation you largely are going to be installing anyway will be more than enough to cover any increased insurance costs.

tomcat wrote:
- what if a pilot had croaked just before or just after the UEF in QF32? Had it been any safer than with a more advanced cockpit design?

What would have happened if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_ ... light_8303 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 were operated by pilot-less aircraft, would all the pax still be alive today?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
hivue
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:07 pm

zeke wrote:
hivue wrote:
If it can be, why is this idea worse than ETOPS 330?


Just waiting for you to tell us where MH370 is and what caused that to go missing.


I'm not sure I take your point. In any event, that part of my post you didn't quote -- the part about single pilot cruise needing to be accepted as being as reliable as single engine operation for 5 1/2 hours -- was my point. I'm not saying that can be done. But it seems to me to be a good benchmark. I think that's the heart of what we are discussing in this thread. I can accept that a properly trained and certified pilot with a valid current medical may not be as reliable as a properly designed, tested, and maintained engine used in an ETOPS 330 operation if that's the conclusion.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3455
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:07 pm

I can see aircraft with a button like seen on CirrusJet, but able to be activated from Dispatch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGkzgfR_c0&t=2s
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:08 pm

The only recent accident I can think of that occurred due to a mechanical/technical issue at cruise is AF447. Having two (and eventually 3) pilots in the cockpit didn't save that plane.
 
Strato2
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:28 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
The only recent accident I can think of that occurred due to a mechanical/technical issue at cruise is AF447. Having two (and eventually 3) pilots in the cockpit didn't save that plane.


The crash didn't occur due to mechanical/technical issue but due to pilots making mistakes dealing with an issue.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:38 pm

What would a computer have done better with no more speed data because of iced up pitots?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:04 pm

Noshow wrote:
What would a computer have done better with no more speed data because of iced up pitots?

The same that the pilots should have done: Realize that the speed data is garbage and use other methods like 'pitch and power' to stay in a safe configuration.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14978
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:00 pm

Wouldn’t replacing the entire C-suite with AI save just as much money as reducing crew on longhaul? Just an honest HR query.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Wouldn’t replacing the entire C-suite with AI save just as much money as reducing crew on longhaul? Just an honest HR query.

Just hire someone to flip a coin whenever a decision needs to be made, you'll probably get better results.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Seriously, how many people even think about that? Having another pilot in the cockpit didn't prevent the GermanWings or the EgyptAir suicides.

Except for the fact that there wasn't another pilot in the cockpit when both of them happened. In the case of one of them, the Captain eventually made it back to the flight deck, but by that point, his attempt to stop it from happening didn't do much. In the case of the other, the Captain couldn't get back into the flight deck at all after being locked out.

Exactly my point - even with multiple pilots, those disasters still happened. A person determined to kill themselves by crashing the plane isn’t going to let another pilot stop them, even if that second pilot is still in the cockpit.

My point being in the two incidents you listed, there WASN'T another pilot in the flight deck to prevent that from happening. Silk Air 185 is another one to add to the list. I can't think of an incident off the top of my head where one pilot managed to commit suicide with the other one sitting right there in the flight deck.
kalvado wrote:
Suppose you have both engines fail on a 777 in the middle of the pacific. Then what.

Then the pilots would be making an attempt at a controlled ditching.
kalvado wrote:
Suppose you have MCAS go crazy with just two pilots in the cockpit. Then what.

Then you follow the procedures that are in place to deal with it because presumably there would be procedures for that by now.
Captain Kevin
 
panam330
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:53 pm

Yeah, nope. Absolutely not. The key to aviation safety is redundancy; this removes the most important redundancy of them all. I hope the pilot unions destroy this possibility, and fast.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:07 pm

panam330 wrote:
Yeah, nope. Absolutely not. The key to aviation safety is redundancy; this removes the most important redundancy of them all. I hope the pilot unions destroy this possibility, and fast.

Sure. While we're at it, let's go back to four engines, flight engineers, navigators, radio operators, no ETOPS, etc.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:07 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Then you follow the procedures that are in place to deal with it because presumably there would be procedures for that by now.

Keyword is "by now". There is a non-negligible number of accidents where pilots had to struggle with controls effectively working no-SOP situation, or prepare for procedures with uncertain outcome - like ditching. Some even occurred in cruise (UA 777's engines failures)
Those are the most interesting to consider in a "single pilot cruise" scenario. Would it be possible for one pilot to hold the plane afloat for 1 minute, until reinforcement arrives?
This question can be asked even now. Even with two-pilot nominally at controls, there are single pilot episodes: A two-pilot crew can probably make LHR-NYC without an issue, except for the cockpit is single pilot for few %% of time while one of pilots steps out to the lav. What would happen if an engine in 777 disintegrates, like it already did, during that time? It took 3 pilots to bring that bird to HNL..

Current answer is probably "help will be there shortly, and chances are low enough"... Except for pilot may not have a spare hand to open cockpit door...
 
User avatar
armagnac2010
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:45 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:18 pm

Noshow wrote:
What would a computer have done better with no more speed data because of iced up pitots?

The same that the pilots should have done: Realize that the speed data is garbage and use other methods like 'pitch and power' to stay in a safe configuration.


Even simpler. Do nothing. Let the beast fly on its own, exit the ice crystal condtions, fly to destination and live another day.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:41 pm

kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Then you follow the procedures that are in place to deal with it because presumably there would be procedures for that by now.

Keyword is "by now". There is a non-negligible number of accidents where pilots had to struggle with controls effectively working no-SOP situation, or prepare for procedures with uncertain outcome - like ditching. Some even occurred in cruise (UA 777's engines failures)
Those are the most interesting to consider in a "single pilot cruise" scenario. Would it be possible for one pilot to hold the plane afloat for 1 minute, until reinforcement arrives?
This question can be asked even now. Even with two-pilot nominally at controls, there are single pilot episodes: A two-pilot crew can probably make LHR-NYC without an issue, except for the cockpit is single pilot for few %% of time while one of pilots steps out to the lav. What would happen if an engine in 777 disintegrates, like it already did, during that time? It took 3 pilots to bring that bird to HNL..

Current answer is probably "help will be there shortly, and chances are low enough"... Except for pilot may not have a spare hand to open cockpit door...

And you want to go single-pilot with that possibility.
Captain Kevin
 
kalvado
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:30 pm

AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Then you follow the procedures that are in place to deal with it because presumably there would be procedures for that by now.

Keyword is "by now". There is a non-negligible number of accidents where pilots had to struggle with controls effectively working no-SOP situation, or prepare for procedures with uncertain outcome - like ditching. Some even occurred in cruise (UA 777's engines failures)
Those are the most interesting to consider in a "single pilot cruise" scenario. Would it be possible for one pilot to hold the plane afloat for 1 minute, until reinforcement arrives?
This question can be asked even now. Even with two-pilot nominally at controls, there are single pilot episodes: A two-pilot crew can probably make LHR-NYC without an issue, except for the cockpit is single pilot for few %% of time while one of pilots steps out to the lav. What would happen if an engine in 777 disintegrates, like it already did, during that time? It took 3 pilots to bring that bird to HNL..

Current answer is probably "help will be there shortly, and chances are low enough"... Except for pilot may not have a spare hand to open cockpit door...

And you want to go single-pilot with that possibility.

Single-pilot for cruise. Where probability of such events is pretty low.
This may actually help with overall safety as entire setup would require resting pilot to enter cockpit without delay while the other guy is busy. Would be interesting how security would be addressed.

some interesting piece of history: once upon a time you were part of the group defending NOT ADDING an extra safety feature (lidar for ramp operations) saying that safety is already full swing and some. Now you oppose the change in the other direction?
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:37 pm

kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Keyword is "by now". There is a non-negligible number of accidents where pilots had to struggle with controls effectively working no-SOP situation, or prepare for procedures with uncertain outcome - like ditching. Some even occurred in cruise (UA 777's engines failures)
Those are the most interesting to consider in a "single pilot cruise" scenario. Would it be possible for one pilot to hold the plane afloat for 1 minute, until reinforcement arrives?
This question can be asked even now. Even with two-pilot nominally at controls, there are single pilot episodes: A two-pilot crew can probably make LHR-NYC without an issue, except for the cockpit is single pilot for few %% of time while one of pilots steps out to the lav. What would happen if an engine in 777 disintegrates, like it already did, during that time? It took 3 pilots to bring that bird to HNL..
Current answer is probably "help will be there shortly, and chances are low enough"... Except for pilot may not have a spare hand to open cockpit door...

And you want to go single-pilot with that possibility.

Single-pilot for cruise. Where probability of such events is pretty low.
This may actually help with overall safety as entire setup would require resting pilot to enter cockpit without delay while the other guy is busy. Would be interesting how security would be addressed.

So what happens if, as you said, the one pilot might not have a spare hand to open the door.
kalvado wrote:
some interesting piece of history: once upon a time you were part of the group defending NOT ADDING an extra safety feature (lidar for ramp operations) saying that safety is already full swing and some. Now you oppose the change in the other direction?

The what for ramp operations? Not sure what you're talking about, you've obviously got much better memory than I do, and I have no idea what the lidar even is, so not sure if you've even got the right person.
Captain Kevin
 
kalvado
Posts: 3158
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:49 pm

AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
And you want to go single-pilot with that possibility.

Single-pilot for cruise. Where probability of such events is pretty low.
This may actually help with overall safety as entire setup would require resting pilot to enter cockpit without delay while the other guy is busy. Would be interesting how security would be addressed.

So what happens if, as you said, the one pilot might not have a spare hand to open the door.
kalvado wrote:
some interesting piece of history: once upon a time you were part of the group defending NOT ADDING an extra safety feature (lidar for ramp operations) saying that safety is already full swing and some. Now you oppose the change in the other direction?

The what for ramp operations? Not sure what you're talking about, you've obviously got much better memory than I do.

Extra hands? Same thing as happened before. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... nose-dive/

And I am talking about this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1415723

Moral of the story is still the same - existing procedures are always a result of some compromise, if not knee-jerk reactions. Some of those - if not all - have unexpected consequences. Sweet spots of efficiency - and understanding of those spots - change over time. So changes should happen, and they do happen.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1685
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:58 pm

Why are so many people eager to see hundreds of thousands of professional out of work? I mean there is a real sense of glee and eagerness about this on the part of many. Jealousy/resentment? Hard to say, but you can't deny how glib so many of you on this site are about the potential to put all pilots out of work.

You think it will result in cheaper air transport? It won't. Airlines will still charge as much they can.
 
OKCPanda
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:15 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:21 pm

I've never been a fan at all of Airbus's "The plane is smarter than the pilot" philosophy, but this doesn't seem like too big of a change.

My biggest concern would be the Human Factors failure recognition when a pilot is incapacitated, especially if it is following a failure. The usual four-seconds-to-recognize would definitely be significantly longer from the moment the pilot is summoned.

Additionally, there are certain failure modes (e.g. Engine Fire) where the procedure requires the two pilots to agree before taking action. At least that's what we had on the airplanes model numbered G6--. That could take a very significant amount of time when seconds are critical.
 
OKCPanda
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:15 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:25 pm

KAUSpilot wrote:
Why are so many people eager to see hundreds of thousands of professional out of work? I mean there is a real sense of glee and eagerness about this on the part of many. Jealousy/resentment? Hard to say, but you can't deny how glib so many of you on this site are about the potential to put all pilots out of work.

You think it will result in cheaper air transport? It won't. Airlines will still charge as much they can.


I would not expect this to go through in any country with strong pilot unions.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16085
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:39 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Should be possible. Billions of passengers have reached safely their destination during the last 100 years, sitting in trains driven by single-drivers, protected by rather simplistic dead-man detection solutions.


What you are not mentioning is that on long distance train trips they have two drivers, trains that are driven by one driver are certified as such. On short distance trips drivers are frequently changed, they generally don't drive for more than 6hrs in a shift. Trains have their own dedicated signaling networks, and if you cut power to a train it comes to rest on the tracks. And the last fact is that the number of train accidents and number of people killed is way higher. Train travel is not as safe as air travel.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:47 pm

My question is...imagine the sole pilot goes "German Wings", decides to lock the cockpit and the co-pilot can't get there or take control fast enough? That's why I would push against this. Not only would the passengers die but the airline and Airbus would be hit with major lawsuits..from that point of view the entire idea seems crazy.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16085
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:50 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Also with pilot shortages single pilot could help with the shortages. Mind yo I would rather have 2 for many reasons Including a plane as a suicide we heard of a few years back.


I think pilot shortages is what is driving this, so many people have left the industry for good during covid. The public dont see it as there isnt that much flying going on, I know from colleagues in other companies a lot of very experienced people have left the industry because of dumb government regulations. You will see a push for single crew in the cruise, and extension of pilot retirement ages to 75 or beyond.

The biggest negative aspect to this to me is that being a pilot is a skill, you cannot just read a bunch of books and pass a test and then your good to go. Flying with two crew is actually on the job training for future commanders.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26290
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:56 pm

KAUSpilot wrote:
Why are so many people eager to see hundreds of thousands of professional out of work? I mean there is a real sense of glee and eagerness about this on the part of many. Jealousy/resentment? Hard to say, but you can't deny how glib so many of you on this site are about the potential to put all pilots out of work.

You think it will result in cheaper air transport? It won't. Airlines will still charge as much they can.

I have no glee to see pilots out of work, nor blacksmiths when we switched from horses to automobiles, or elevator operators once automatic controls became common, or telephone operators when automatic switching became common, or those in my own industry when offshoring became common. I just accept that change is inevitable. IMO it's the most sensible thing to do.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16085
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:59 pm

keesje wrote:
Airbus would probably have to prove EASA and FAA the new system, with pilots taking a rest halfway, is at least as safe or safer than the current system.


The bigger issue will be getting every country that you overfly to agree to the aircraft being flown by less than the minimum number of pilots. All airliners in their type certificate data sheets and flight manuals state the minimum number of crew is two. If you ever worked in regulatory affairs, regulators move very slowly, and to get ICAO to agree on something takes years. For example for 20 years now we have had simulators approved for zero flight time training, yet our HKG regulator still requires new pilots to go up and do circuits in a real aircraft. There are also countries I can think of that simply will not permit such overflights if their own national airlines are not doing the same to prevent what they perceive as commercial advantage in their airspace.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos