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AirKevin
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:10 pm

redflyer wrote:
In the event of incapacitation of the driver/operator of a surface transport, the most common end-result is the transport rolls to a stop after a short period of time; worst case scenario, it goes off the road and crashes and most of the passengers walk away with minor injuries (unless it goes off a cliff). Passengers can even quickly jump in, take hold of the steering and guide the transport to a stop as has happened many times.

I wouldn't be so sure about the last part. Unless anything has changed, the last time I was on a Greyhound bus, the buses were designed such that there was a partition that would separate the driver from the passengers. Unless the passengers have any way of moving it out of the way, they wouldn't really be able to do this.
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ADent
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:20 pm

I see something like a pilot and a purser (or loadmaster for cargo ops) - at least to start with.

This second person would be trained to push the auto land button and maybe a level flight autopilot button (for use when the captain is using the head).

I don’t see large passenger planes without a second person in the cockpit for quite a few years.

Even then the auto land button probably needs an interface to select airport and runway and have audio communication with ATC.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:29 pm

kalvado wrote:
More likely that would be a first class seat for a quicker response. THat is a legitimate rest option in some cases anyway.
An interesting question, though - I had an impression pilot seat is as comfortable, if not more comfortable than the first class one.


It doesn’t lie flat like most seats. Not even close to flat. Regulators require the place of rest to be of certain specifications. E.g. A flat, padded surface is one of them. And plus when you’re in the flight deck and at your station you can never fully be relaxed.

Nevertheless, the amazing point about this discussion and others like these is essentially one of a revolt over further automation. This has been happening since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Each new invention or significant upgrade brings with it a sense of fear and dread. The airplane itself was deemed too dangerous and unnecessary by many many people, and not just those that were ‘backwards’. There seems to be a bit of Luddite in all of us.

The reality is this, flying a plane consists of aviating, navigating, communicating and operating aircraft systems. Early aircraft had 4 crew, an aviator (the captain), a communicator and helper (FO), a systems operator (engineer) and a separate navigator. The first casualty was the navigator as navigation became the captain and FOs job, it was also easier thanks to the development of navigation aids etc. Second was the flight engineer, as computers took over the control of aircraft systems (opening, closing valves etc.) or their operation was simplified so that the remaining 2 pilots could handle it. And now, finally, it seems that the computers are good enough that only one, and finally no pilots will be required.

The reality is this: at this stage in commercial aviation, when the technology is implemented to allow for ATC to communicate orders to an aircrafts autopilot directly, there actually is no need for any pilot input at all, from the start to the end of the flight. Airbus have already implemented an auto taxi and take off. The development of highly accurate GPS and the ability for aircraft computers to be able to ‘read’ ATC text messages already means that the fundemental technologies are already in place, it is only a matter of connecting them together (having them communicate with each other) and perfecting the process. That is to say that in normal operations the computers can now do all 4 jobs.

The issue though is what happens when there’s a failure or any abnormal situation. At this stage even the most advanced aircraft still requires at least an aviator and a systems operator during failure. That’s 2 pilots. Is the A350 really that sophisticated that all failures in Cruise can be handled by just one pilot? And like a few guys have mentioned what happens if that pilot needs to go the bathroom? :lol: Seriously!
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mxaxai
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:41 pm

3rdGen wrote:
The issue though is what happens when there’s a failure or any abnormal situation. At this stage even the most advanced aircraft still requires at least an aviator and a systems operator during failure. That’s 2 pilots. Is the A350 really that sophisticated that all failures in Cruise can be handled by just one pilot? And like a few guys have mentioned what happens if that pilot needs to go the bathroom? :lol: Seriously!

I think Airbus will have to prove that the aircraft can handle any common failures for a few minutes. Not only for the rare case of pilot incapacitation but also for pilots having to go to the toilet, having to eat, etc. With modern FBW and systems design, it's possible to implement automated FDIR (Fault Detection, Isolation and Recovery) for some failure modes. It works reasonably well for spacecraft, where the typical procedure is to go to some 'safe mode' that keeps the satellite alive until a human can analyse the problem.
 
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zeke
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:43 pm

ER757 wrote:
We have a CX pilot on this forum who posts quite often - hoping he'll check in with his :twocents: as it's his company that is involved


First I heard of it was reading it on here…..
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:02 pm

mxaxai wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
The issue though is what happens when there’s a failure or any abnormal situation. At this stage even the most advanced aircraft still requires at least an aviator and a systems operator during failure. That’s 2 pilots. Is the A350 really that sophisticated that all failures in Cruise can be handled by just one pilot? And like a few guys have mentioned what happens if that pilot needs to go the bathroom? :lol: Seriously!

I think Airbus will have to prove that the aircraft can handle any common failures for a few minutes. Not only for the rare case of pilot incapacitation but also for pilots having to go to the toilet, having to eat, etc. With modern FBW and systems design, it's possible to implement automated FDIR (Fault Detection, Isolation and Recovery) for some failure modes. It works reasonably well for spacecraft, where the typical procedure is to go to some 'safe mode' that keeps the satellite alive until a human can analyse the problem.

Right, but if a pilot needs to go to the bathroom the aircraft must be able to handle EVERY failure by itself. At that point its just a unmanned aircraft .
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SwissCanuck
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:07 pm

ADent wrote:
I see something like a pilot and a purser (or loadmaster for cargo ops) - at least to start with.

This second person would be trained to push the auto land button and maybe a level flight autopilot button (for use when the captain is using the head).

I don’t see large passenger planes without a second person in the cockpit for quite a few years.

Even then the auto land button probably needs an interface to select airport and runway and have audio communication with ATC.


That's way off. What they're trying to do here is reduce relief pilot(s)... going from 4->3 or 3->2 on some real long hauls.
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:13 pm

mxaxai wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
The issue though is what happens when there’s a failure or any abnormal situation. At this stage even the most advanced aircraft still requires at least an aviator and a systems operator during failure. That’s 2 pilots. Is the A350 really that sophisticated that all failures in Cruise can be handled by just one pilot? And like a few guys have mentioned what happens if that pilot needs to go the bathroom? :lol: Seriously!

I think Airbus will have to prove that the aircraft can handle any common failures for a few minutes. Not only for the rare case of pilot incapacitation but also for pilots having to go to the toilet, having to eat, etc. With modern FBW and systems design, it's possible to implement automated FDIR (Fault Detection, Isolation and Recovery) for some failure modes. It works reasonably well for spacecraft, where the typical procedure is to go to some 'safe mode' that keeps the satellite alive until a human can analyse the problem.

The OP article says:

"Airbus would have had to make sure every situation can be handled autonomously without any pilot input for 15 minutes," the source said.

Seems to be a pretty high bar. Not sure where the 15 minute standard comes from.

3rdGen wrote:
Right, but if a pilot needs to go to the bathroom the aircraft must be able to handle EVERY failure by itself. At that point its just a unmanned aircraft .

If? I think the word should be "when", unless they can purge the pilot's digestive and urinary track in advance.
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sUAisDL
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:32 pm

skipness1E wrote:
As Jon Stewart said this week, science is very clever but just because science can do something doesn't mean it should.


I’m pretty sure that’s a “Jurassic Park” quote.
 
hivue
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
Very interesting!
Safe deployment will require constant monitoring of the solo pilot's alertness


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SL1200MK2
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:32 pm

I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting. With that in-mind, they would theoretically away from home and dealing with the exhaustion and stresses of travel yet paid significantly less due to actually working less hours. My sister works in medicine and when she is on-call, she is paid half-time and when a call comes up, she gets double time. Would the airlines have some sort of similar setup? Do they get some sort of bonus for having to jump up in an emergency or is it just the pro-rated pay of the time away from their slumber?
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:35 pm

Another point. They would need to have gone through every aviation accident in history and found that, barring those that couldn’t happen due to technological advancements, every other possible accident/incident could be dealt with with only one pilot in the cockpit or no pilot in the cockpit. Just off the top of my head, I somehow doubt that’s possible. Computers have their limitations, at some point you need a human in there to work things out.
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 E

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:46 pm

Revelation wrote:

"Airbus would have had to make sure every situation can be handled autonomously without any pilot input for 15 minutes," the source said.

Seems to be a pretty high bar. Not sure where the 15 minute standard comes from.


Regardless, the article says that Lufthansa execs were advised that the project could never meet safety standards. Maybe Airbus’ engineers have let their success go their head and are getting a bit too far ahead of themselves, just as Boeing’s did with the MAX.
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marcelh
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:58 pm

Nice USP of the A350F
 
Iluvtofly
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:03 pm

So what do you tell the 2nd pilot .... you get paid for 1 hour during take off and 1 during landing and the rest of the time you are resting ? So you are available to the airline for 10 hours and through 5 time zones but you will get 2 hours flight credit unless there is an emergency. Might as well go work at McDonald's.
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Ufsatp
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:16 pm

Noshow wrote:
I am opposing this as a passenger.


As a passenger, I am all for it.
 
miegapele
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:21 pm

But how does it work with suicide concerns? If automation can fix that, then pilot has no control and is not needed at all. If pilot has some control, how would suicide dealt with? Currently major deterant to that is second pilot and pretty high odds that you would fail. With single pilot it becomes possibility.
Although single driver trains are commonplace so maybe this can work somehow.
 
flight152
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:28 pm

Ufsatp wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I am opposing this as a passenger.


As a passenger, I am all for it.


Why would any sane passenger be for this? Do you like the idea of degraded safety margins in the name of higher corporate profit margins?
 
nikeherc
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:41 pm

kalvado wrote:
redflyer wrote:
Starfuryt wrote:
Would be interesting to hear from long haul pilots what they think about being left in the cockpit alone for hours on end with not a whole lot to do and no one to talk to.

Would be interesting to hear from passengers what they think about one pilot up front, alone. Inasmuch as I think it's inevitable that this is the direction human flight is going in, I think it's still a long ways off for commercial passenger flights. I could see it happening with cargo flights, but not passenger flights. At least not for a long time yet.

Did you ever take long haul Greyhound bus, where one driver up front, alone, just enjoys snoring payload in the back?
Somehow that is acceptable and manageable for many people. Of course, there are major differences - but there are clear similarities as well.



For one thing, the bus does not have an autopilot. Also, most bus segments are only a couple of hours. Just dealing with traffic and driving the bus would help keep the driver awake.
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:47 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting. With that in-mind, they would theoretically away from home and dealing with the exhaustion and stresses of travel yet paid significantly less due to actually working less hours. My sister works in medicine and when she is on-call, she is paid half-time and when a call comes up, she gets double time. Would the airlines have some sort of similar setup? Do they get some sort of bonus for having to jump up in an emergency or is it just the pro-rated pay of the time away from their slumber?

The industry already has rules for pilots resting on long haul flights, nothing is new for this type of operation with regard to rest pay. If anything the pilots could claim their stress and workload would go up during single-pilot operational periods and ask for more money.
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E90SLAM
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:53 pm

Sounds like currently only CX management are pitching and engaging Airbus for the possibility for doing this, instead of operations and pilots.

There will be strict procedures for this to happen, like protocols when the PF needs a relief, or having a snack/meal, break/rest durations, etc. Also monitoring systems/cameras in the cockpit. (That's still debating) There are different drowsiness monitors in different auto manufactures. Such as Mercedes, BMW and even Tesla Model 3/Y has a cabin camera that can read how many times the driver's head tile or eyesight etc. So technology is slowly making many "what-ifs" detectable.

I recall back in 2018/19 when QF launched "Project Sunrise", they did monitor pilot's brain activities or something. Maybe some of those information can be shared and studied for this initiative.
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:57 pm

Iluvtofly wrote:
So what do you tell the 2nd pilot .... you get paid for 1 hour during take off and 1 during landing and the rest of the time you are resting ? So you are available to the airline for 10 hours and through 5 time zones but you will get 2 hours flight credit unless there is an emergency. Might as well go work at McDonald's.


Most likely will be 2 pilots for the take off and landing, and first 15-30 mins of cruise. Then Pilot 1 goes to rest for let's say 3 hours, then the Pilot 2's turn for another 3 hours, and so on. Generally speaking I'd guess pilots will split 50% of cruise duty?
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:04 pm

skipness1E wrote:
As Jon Stewart said this week, science is very clever but just because science can do something doesn't mean it should.


I believe he also said "F&%# no...I'm not getting on that plane!"
 
hiflyeras
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:05 pm

[code][/code]
flight152 wrote:
Ufsatp wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I am opposing this as a passenger.


As a passenger, I am all for it.


Why would any sane passenger be for this? Do you like the idea of degraded safety margins in the name of higher corporate profit margins?


Still waiting for that 'like' button on a.net! Yes!!!
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:54 pm

AirKevin wrote:
redflyer wrote:
In the event of incapacitation of the driver/operator of a surface transport, the most common end-result is the transport rolls to a stop after a short period of time; worst case scenario, it goes off the road and crashes and most of the passengers walk away with minor injuries (unless it goes off a cliff). Passengers can even quickly jump in, take hold of the steering and guide the transport to a stop as has happened many times.

I wouldn't be so sure about the last part. Unless anything has changed, the last time I was on a Greyhound bus, the buses were designed such that there was a partition that would separate the driver from the passengers. Unless the passengers have any way of moving it out of the way, they wouldn't really be able to do this.


I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition. Nevertheless, given a choice of being in the back of a bus that goes off the road because the driver croaks, or the back of an airplane that goes into a death spiral because the pilot croaks, I'll take the Greyhound bus any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :spin:
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luckyone
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 pm

I can’t be the only one imaging that a single pilot is going to be dancing in the cockpit to keep themselves occupied and awake. Anyone remember the 1997 movie RocketMan?
 
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:08 pm

redflyer wrote:
I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition. Nevertheless, given a choice of being in the back of a bus that goes off the road because the driver croaks, or the back of an airplane that goes into a death spiral because the pilot croaks, I'll take the Greyhound bus any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :spin:

Fine, yet the A350 should do much better if the pilot croaks than the Greyhound bus. It should be a non-event, it's really one of the easier failure modes for it to deal with. It should figure out from lack of activity that the pilot is no longer in the loop and put itself into a holding pattern till the resting pilot can take over. On the other hand, the Greyhound really has no way to deal with a driver that croaks. You'd have to find a way to pull him/her out of the operators position and by the time you could do that you'd almost certainly have gone off the road or hit something on the road.
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tomcat
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:17 pm

redflyer wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
redflyer wrote:
In the event of incapacitation of the driver/operator of a surface transport, the most common end-result is the transport rolls to a stop after a short period of time; worst case scenario, it goes off the road and crashes and most of the passengers walk away with minor injuries (unless it goes off a cliff). Passengers can even quickly jump in, take hold of the steering and guide the transport to a stop as has happened many times.

I wouldn't be so sure about the last part. Unless anything has changed, the last time I was on a Greyhound bus, the buses were designed such that there was a partition that would separate the driver from the passengers. Unless the passengers have any way of moving it out of the way, they wouldn't really be able to do this.


I haven't been on a Greyhound bus in over four decades, so I wasn't aware they had a driver partition. Nevertheless, given a choice of being in the back of a bus that goes off the road because the driver croaks, or the back of an airplane that goes into a death spiral because the pilot croaks, I'll take the Greyhound bus any day of the week and twice on Sundays. :spin:


But why would the plane go into a spiral in such an event? If it would be certified for 1 pilot operation in cruise, it would keep flying just fine without you noticing anything contrary to the bus that would surely go off road. In those days when we can land driverless rovers on Mars why wouldn't you trust that a plane could operate for a few minutes without pilot in a well understood environment?
 
tax1k
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 pm

It seems to me that the inevitable March of technology was bound to raise this at some point. But it seems like an awful idea. You can’t trust only one human anymore than you can trust any other one system on a plane. Isn’t redundancy the basis of most flight safety?
And if someone can monitor/control from the ground then it can be hacked. Full stop.
Maybe a FA can be some sort of “parapilot” like a really long bathroom break procedure. But one pilot alone in the cockpit seems idiotic.
As for greyhound, next time a bus is at 20,00 ft with ten tons of flammable liquid and/or flown into a building let us know.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting. With that in-mind, they would theoretically away from home and dealing with the exhaustion and stresses of travel yet paid significantly less due to actually working less hours. My sister works in medicine and when she is on-call, she is paid half-time and when a call comes up, she gets double time. Would the airlines have some sort of similar setup? Do they get some sort of bonus for having to jump up in an emergency or is it just the pro-rated pay of the time away from their slumber?

The industry already has rules for pilots resting on long haul flights, nothing is new for this type of operation with regard to rest pay. If anything the pilots could claim their stress and workload would go up during single-pilot operational periods and ask for more money.


I understand that but what I mean is that basically, a pilot would be on an aircraft for many many hours, it being an ultra-long-haul flight. Yet, they would be paid only for the hours they are in the pilot's seat. So, let's say it is just the phases of flight where they are needed and there are no emergencies. Would a pilot be on a 14 hour flight, including the layover for a night or two, then back on a 14-hour flight and get paid for only 5-6 hours of work? Seems like a lot of exhaustion and time away for less than a day of work paid.

What I suppose I am asking is if there will be a system of payment that is simply more than the hours flown.

Thanks!
 
kalvado
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:41 pm

tax1k wrote:
It seems to me that the inevitable March of technology was bound to raise this at some point. But it seems like an awful idea. You can’t trust only one human anymore than you can trust any other one system on a plane. Isn’t redundancy the basis of most flight safety?
And if someone can monitor/control from the ground then it can be hacked. Full stop.
Maybe a FA can be some sort of “parapilot” like a really long bathroom break procedure. But one pilot alone in the cockpit seems idiotic.
As for greyhound, next time a bus is at 20,00 ft with ten tons of flammable liquid and/or flown into a building let us know.

I assume you work for the airline in US, right?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:49 pm

tax1k wrote:
Maybe a FA can be some sort of “parapilot” like a really long bathroom break procedure. But one pilot alone in the cockpit seems idiotic.


They would have to be trained, licenced, overseen, checked, recurrent trained, so why not just a pilot to begin with? Most FAs (no disrespect) don’t have the mentality needed to become a pilot anyway.

This idea is stupid for many reasons. Anyone with knowledge and experience of long haul pilot operations would know that.

One, controlled rest in the flight deck is common even with augmented crew. If an issue happens that requires pilot wakefulness it takes several minutes for that pilot to get to an optimum level of alertness.

Second, toilet breaks. Pilots need to get up and go to the toilet. At this point there will be no one at the controls. Don’t suggest bags or diapers.

Also pilots need to stretch their legs due circulatory issues, unless you want DVT developing en masse.

Weather avoidance. I’ve seen TS and CB clouds pop up on the radar at short notice, easy to miss, two pilots make it easier to see and avoid. What if one pilots is taking controlled rest or in the bathroom.

Turbulence avoidance. A lot of avoiding turbulence is done by listening to other radio transmissions on ATC and adjusting flight paths accordingly. Hard to do if the single pilot is taking controlled rest or using the toilet.

Wake turbulence avoidance. Usually take a mile or two offset to avoid wake turbulence, again hard to if only pilot out of flight deck.

Depressurisation, engine failure. I’m sure Airbus can program it’s computers to descend or maintain single engine flight path maintaining, it’s the 101 other things that occur in an emergency that requires two alert pilots at the controls to deal with. For instance if anyone has flown in Central Asia you know if a depressurisation occurs descending to a safe altitude isn’t so simple and requires complex course changes to avoid high terrain.

Time in cruise allows discussion on operational issues with a second pilot. Often in long haul operations it can be fist time flying to a new port, so it allows time for discussion and planning of the arrival with the other pilot. Sometimes into ports with bad weather I’ve spent several hours discussing the arrival with the other pilot on the flight deck. Limited time to do this if not in cruise. As well pilots discuss and brief the likelihood of using a nearby alternate if a diversion is required, hard to if the other pilot is in deep sleep.

And a factor that is quite important and a contributor to WH&S and wellbeing. Just having the presence of a colleague to converse with at work. Long haul flying can be an incredibly lonely job with can adversely affect mental health, no need to make it more lonely.

Also long haul back of the clock it’s easier to stay awake with two pilots in the flight deck having a discussion. One pilot just sitting there is a sure fire way to drift off unknowingly.

After a long haul flight, out of body clock and jet lagged, fatigued, you’re making an approach into a busy airport in difficult conditions, you’ll have those augmented pilots sitting on the jumpseat observing. Often they’ve brought the operating pilots attention to something they’ve missed. You also have a black swan QF32 scenario where 5 fully trained pilots work all worked off their feet dealing with a complex situation.

Cathay and some other airlines use cruise reliefs pilots as an entry level job as well. They aren’t paid as much so any cost savings will be minimal. And cruise relief is also a great way for low time pilots to gain experience and knowledge of airline operations without being put into a control seat straight away. A lot of time in cruise is spent discussing procedures and knowledge with a more experienced senior pilot, it can be a great time for learning.

This just smacks of a few execs who’ve never sat in a flight deck thinking they can save a few bucks. You might think this is a a natural progression from the removal of the F/E, but as I remind people that just was just passed to 2 trained and redundant pilots with the assistance of automation, not automated completely. Going down to one removes a massive layer of safety.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 451
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:57 pm

This only works with the top pilots. Who are all-round strong. All airlines are also filled with lesser gods. There are pilots who on there own will deviate wrongly from their track to avoid thunderstorms. Which can quickly make your fuel run below needed arrival fuel. Just to give an example. Or not deviate in time. The number one reason besides high workload moments to always have 2 people in the cockpit is to make any deviating decision from the standard flightplan together.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:04 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
This only works with the top pilots. Who are all-round strong. All airlines are also filled with lesser gods. There are pilots who on there own will deviate wrongly from their track to avoid thunderstorms. Which can quickly make your fuel run below needed arrival fuel. Just to give an example. Or not deviate in time. The number one reason besides high workload moments to always have 2 people in the cockpit is to make any deviating decision from the standard flightplan together.


A decision made by two is always better than one. I’d hate to be a Captain after having a deep sleep on a long haul flight wake up and discover their offsider made a decision which has left the aircraft in a less than optimal state that could’ve been avoided had there been another pilot there to question that decision.

Another factor - long haul operations generally don’t allow many sectors for take off and landing for the operating pilots. Lack of currency is an issue. Meaning it can be good to use time in cruise to discuss in depth landing and takeoff procedures.

Again these stories smack of people who’s only know about flying long haul aircraft from a technical standpoint, if they’d done it extensively there know there’s a human element to it all that can’t be replicated or replaced by automation. Being a pilot is as much an art is it is a science at times.
 
Ufsatp
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:19 am

flight152 wrote:
Ufsatp wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I am opposing this as a passenger.


As a passenger, I am all for it.


Why would any sane passenger be for this? Do you like the idea of degraded safety margins in the name of higher corporate profit margins?


I honestly do not see it as a degraded safety margin. While the pilot unions might want to sell you that line, it just isn’t there.
 
flight152
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:27 am

Ufsatp wrote:
flight152 wrote:
Ufsatp wrote:

As a passenger, I am all for it.


Why would any sane passenger be for this? Do you like the idea of degraded safety margins in the name of higher corporate profit margins?


I honestly do not see it as a degraded safety margin. While the pilot unions might want to sell you that line, it just isn’t there.


You can see it however you would like. The fact is, one less set of eyes watching the systems, watching out the window and being there to feel what’s going on is a step in the wrong direction. Period, end of story.
 
aeromoe
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:45 am

skipness1E wrote:
As Jon Stewart said this week, science is very clever but just because science can do something doesn't mean it should.


Not a new concept. Jon Stewart was just echoing what Jeff Goldblum's character Ian Malcom stated in Jurassic Park: “...Your Scientists Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should.”
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zeke
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:19 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting.


Pilots and cabin crew are paid for the entire flight, even when resting.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 am

At this time two pilots are needed for take-off, climb, cruise, descent, and landing. Where in cruise with autopilot on, it seems acceptable to have one flying, a 2nd in the cockpit awake but not 'on duty', keeping the pilot on duty more alert. This 2nd could surf the web, train, study, read, what ever.

Say past 8 hours, the 3rd pilot could be sleeping initially, then take over an hour to 90 min in, then the 3 pilots rotate thru every few hours with one allowed to sleep at any time. A 12 hour flight each pilot would get to sleep 4 hours. The need for a 4th pilot would be extended an extra 2 hours from today's rules. Then any flight to say 24 hours could be handled by 4 pilots., but flights longer than 16 hours requiring a day layover for the pilot.

People hanging out with nothing to do does not improve alertness, a 4 person crew with the right rules should be able to be quite safe for any flight. This being CX with their very long length flights seems to be pointing to this.
 
tax1k
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 am

kalvado wrote:
tax1k wrote:
It seems to me that the inevitable March of technology was bound to raise this at some point. But it seems like an awful idea. You can’t trust only one human anymore than you can trust any other one system on a plane. Isn’t redundancy the basis of most flight safety?
And if someone can monitor/control from the ground then it can be hacked. Full stop.
Maybe a FA can be some sort of “parapilot” like a really long bathroom break procedure. But one pilot alone in the cockpit seems idiotic.
As for greyhound, next time a bus is at 20,00 ft with ten tons of flammable liquid and/or flown into a building let us know.

I assume you work for the airline in US, right?

Nope. Not any airline.
 
Max Q
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:48 am

Terrible idea, but inevitable and this is just another step along the path to pilotless and eventually autonomous airliners


Many people have total faith in technology and automation, most airline pilots have seen it go wrong in numerous and unpredictable ways


You can’t take the human out even if they’re just designing the software, when things go wrong and they always will, you need two human pilots on the spot to correct the problem
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
ramprat320
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:17 am

While the single pilot is alone on the flight deck for a few hours I guess he/she is out of luck if they have to use the bathroom. Or does that constitute an emergency and the other pilot can be awoken from the bunk in that instance?
 
AngMoh
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:54 am

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Right, even to cover the most basic issues it seems the system that detects inactivity would have to be pretty flawless and/or the pilot would have to ask for help at the earliest possible onset of any issue, and we know most human beings hate to ask for help..

I assume they can make sure help is summoned automatically in case something happens.
Autopilot disconnect, programmed altitude change by more than 2000 or 4000 feet, speed by more than 0.05M, any cockpit alert, something else?...

Medical monitoring (pilot has heartbeat, is breathing, etc)?
Alertness monitoring (pilot is not sleeping, not engaging in "social activities", etc)?
It may be a challenge to monitor all this without generating "false positives" that wake the sleeping crew member a lot.


Easiest and most reliable is eye tracking with cameras. It has been rolled out or will be rolled out soon by German luxury car manufacturers for sleepiness detection in drivers. It is so accurate that it knows what you are looking at and it is used for user interface design / operations studies to track if a UI is effective and to monitor the source of distractions. The most interesting example I have seen is a 25 min drive in a major world city by a driver being tested and the driver never ever looked at the mirrors and hardly glanced at all at the speedometer, nor looked into side roads. The majority of time was spent looking at the car in front only or the car radio.

I was in an transport automation conference 2 years ago and an Airbus R&D director clearly stated that they work very hard on increased cockpit automation and the next goal was single pilot operations (he mentioned for the A320).
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hivue
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:25 am

tax1k wrote:
You can’t trust only one human anymore than you can trust any other one system on a plane. Isn’t redundancy the basis of most flight safety?


And yet there are twin-engine airliners and airlines operating them certified for up to 5 1/2 hours single engine from the nearest suitable. No one in their right mind would have considered this remotely possible just a few decades ago (and it was brought into existence primarily to save the airlines money). The rationale is the cumulative experience with and confidence in the reliability of modern turbine engines for aircraft. The same level of confidence in single pilot cruise operation would need to be established to everyone's satisfaction. If it can be, why is this idea worse than ETOPS 330?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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zeke
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:52 am

hivue wrote:
If it can be, why is this idea worse than ETOPS 330?


Just waiting for you to tell us where MH370 is and what caused that to go missing.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Iluvtofly
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:38 am

zeke wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting.


Pilots and cabin crew are paid for the entire flight, even when resting.


Well if that's the case why is this even being proposed ? There would be no cost saving ....... think about it before making a silly comment
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zeke
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:55 am

Iluvtofly wrote:
Well if that's the case why is this even being proposed ? There would be no cost saving ....... think about it before making a silly comment


I know the answer to that however I will keep it to myself since my contribution is valued.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:39 am

Iluvtofly wrote:
zeke wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I am curious as to how pay would work in the sense that prior to this taking place, a pilot is expected to be working for a certain portion of the time they are on-board. And, they are paid for that. With this new possible system, a pilot would be on-board and away from home yet not paid for the time they are resting.


Pilots and cabin crew are paid for the entire flight, even when resting.


Well if that's the case why is this even being proposed ? There would be no cost saving ....... think about it before making a silly comment


Really ?

You think that Zeke has made the silly comment ?

As for the topic, it's a big no from me. I want as much training and experience as possible in control thanks. The automation can help them do their job as much as possible, but in the end the flight crew are the ones in control and I would rather trust them. as they want to get to the destination safely as much as I do.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:21 am

Revelation wrote:
provided we're implementing technical solutions which make sure that if the single one falls asleep or has any problem, there won't be any unsafe conditions."


Should be possible. Billions of passengers have reached safely their destination during the last 100 years, sitting in trains driven by single-drivers, protected by rather simplistic dead-man detection solutions.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
FluidFlow
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Re: CX Working With Airbus on Single-Pilot System for A350 With 2025 EIS

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:45 am

What is actually interesting is, that the biggest point against single pilot is not the failure of automation but actually the failure of the single human doing something stupid. The second person in the cockpit is there to make sure the first does nothing stupid.

At the moment pilot nr. 1 is there to make sure the automation works well and pilot number two is there to make sure pilot number 1 does what he has to do.

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